Alignment lament and DM prefrences [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment lament and DM prefrences [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Soups
10-14-07, 02:47 AM It's been a while since I have been on the wiz boards, so here i go.

I know there have been a large number of alignment threads, so I will try not to run them over like a truck. My problem is my character for a brand new campaign.

It all stems from one of my favorite books: Book of exhalted deeds. I just bought it and I love it to death. I know there are more powerful things out there in the vastness of D&D, but power gaming does have its place, but I look for characters that have a balance of not being a pushover in combat, while also not being a social retard (I enjoy roleplaying more so that others I know).

My new party needed a heal bot. I volunteered, but I didn't want a typical cleric so originally i thought i would do a cleric of St. Cuthbert. But I didnt want to feel obligated to tank and kill and heal (I have horrible multitasking skills in the game when I play, keep it simple), So I decided to be a hippy. Something akin to an apostle of peace. So in order to make him the best 2nd level cleric hippy ever, I put vow of poverty and plan on vow on nonviolence and peace.

First half of the problem is I want him to have a quirk that, he wants peace for everyone, and tries his best, but if no one listens to him, he beats the crap out of them. Non lethal damage wise ofcorse (think like anime chicks with thier hammers). Non of the vows says that you can not do non-lethal damage. Doesn't sound too hard.

Second half of the problem is my DM. He also has a copy of the book. He has his own view on being this "exhalted character". He says if I ever do any damage or aggressive thingy, he will gank my vow feats and will be gone forever. He goes on about how "Exhalted characters should be the ultimate good." I kid you not,he said that palidians are easier to play because they will do good first then the law.

It is ok for me, I mean, Alignments are guids, not strict rules. the PHB even says so. But according to my DM, exalted characters are set in stone. No way no how, will my character be able to do anything not lawfull good. Even though my alignment is chaotic good. This goes for any feat that comes from the book.

What do I do? Is he being a rules jerk? is there a way to convince him that exalted characters aren't good nazis?(a la miko from OotS), and I can in fact wack people for not doing good, when common sense would apply that my character should do it? Can I defend my character from a demon?

-Soups
calronmoonflower
10-14-07, 03:13 AM Exalted characters are held to the highest moral standards. Beating the crap out of people that disagree with you, just because they disagree is immoral and smacks of lawful evil thinking. In this case it is also hypocritical.

Asking that the dungeon master rule 0 the rules in your favor is fine, but the dungeon master always has the last word on such things.
Soups
10-14-07, 03:19 AM Hm.. I see your point. His quirk would never to be beating up people. Its more of a last resort that he would hate to do. Kind of along the lines of, say there is a guy who is going to set off a...bomb, and I would be the only one to stop him. If the only way I could stop him is to knock him unconcious, would that be ok?

I unsterstand exhalted characters are difficult to play, but I am of firm belief that they can't be zombie robots of good, even the diety isn't perfect ( ive read the gods section, they do make mistakes). They are humaniods after all.
calronmoonflower
10-14-07, 03:48 AM Well in that case it would be fine. If he really gives you flack over this point him to the The DM's Paladin. Also you should read the feats more carefully, as they both say that you can deal non-lethal damage.

Just remember that Vow of Peace means that you cannot assist in the killing of enemies by dealing non-lethal damage. You will be forced to take them prisoner.
Seeker95
10-14-07, 09:05 AM I as DM would also say no. If for no other reason than this is a group game for 4-6 players (or however many the DM can handle). Your character concept is better for a solo game. Steven Segal with a slower fuse -- but still a solo artist.

In a group game, your character has to fit with the group in general. Are you going to ask the rest of the party to use only non-lethal damage? If yes, then you are probably stepping on their character ideas and concepts that fit perfectly within a game of "find monsters, kill them, take their stuff". If you are not going to ask the rest of the party to use non-lethal damage, then you are playing a hypocrite character (I am NOT calling you a hypocrite). You won't kill, but you will enable killers by healing them.

Vow of Peace is a concept best left to an NPC.
Count Arioch the 28th
10-14-07, 01:53 PM Soups, your DM is 100% right about what exalted entails. (Not the lack of "h" in exalted. It's spelled like it's pronounced, with no "h" anywhere in the word)

Anyway, being exalted IS in fact harder than being a paladin.

Furthermore, your character wants to have Vow of Peace, but wants to beat people up for not listening to him?

First off, you can't beat people up with Vow of Peace. That's what "Vow of Peace" means, you are completely and utterly nonviolent.

Second, harming people for not listening to you is the textbook definition of "Good Nazi", your character will be exactly like Miko from OOtS.

My theory is this entire post is meant to get reactions, because I can't imagine the thought processes that would lead you to these conclusions, except if they were designed to rile up people on the message boards.
Soups
10-14-07, 02:54 PM No, I have an honest question. I am not trying to rile any one up (sorry, not a spelling nazi, get over it. Did I suddenly wind up in Redgar's Repository?). I suppose I myself did not fully understand what exalted fully entailed.

In that case, for anyone who has suggestions, is a cleric of St. Cuthbert fun to play? I was thinking taking the Strength and Destruction domains. I assume the abilities the domains give you stack? If not, then I guess I am out of luck in playing a cleric that wont sit there and eat everything (I just don't have cleric experience. All of my playgroup plays the healbot that just sits there and does pretty much nothing).

I do have access to complete divine, is a favored soul compareable to a normal cleric in fillling the role of a primary healer?
calronmoonflower
10-14-07, 03:33 PM I do have access to complete divine, is a favored soul compareable to a normal cleric in fillling the role of a primary healer?

It can be, but you have to use up spell slots on the healing spells. If you have the Player's Handbook II it has an alternate class feature that gives temporary hit points with buff spells as well.

It might just be easier to change your character concept. The cleric can be quite an effective holy warrior type and still be a healer.
Fireclave
10-14-07, 04:24 PM I was thinking taking the Strength and Destruction domains. I assume the abilities the domains give you stack? If not, then I guess I am out of luck in playing a cleric that wont sit there and eat everything (I just don't have cleric experience.
The bonuses you get from the Strength and Destruction domains are not of the same type, nor are they from the same source. Therefore, they do stack.

All of my playgroup plays the healbot that just sits there and does pretty much nothing).
Apparently, your group has never heard of CoDzilla (Cleric-or-Druid-zilla). Clerics are one of the strongest classes in the game. If your clerics are only sitting their and healing, they are hardly living up to their full potential.

I do have access to complete divine, is a favored soul compareable to a normal cleric in fillling the role of a primary healer?
They can be, but generally, you would get more power and versatility from the Cleric. Clerics have access to the entire cleric list when they prepare their spells and can convert prepared spells into cure as needed. Favored Souls are limited only to their relatively small spells known list. If you don't have much experience with either, I suggest being a cleric over a favored soul.

My new party needed a heal bot. I volunteered, but I didn't want a typical cleric so originally i thought i would do a cleric of St. Cuthbert. But I didnt want to feel obligated to tank and kill and heal (I have horrible multitasking skills in the game when I play, keep it simple),
Then don't feel obligated to fill all those roles. Just pick one or two. Clerics are versatile enough that they can fill out other rolls without even trying. For example, a heal-focused cleric only needs to drop a Summon Monster spell or two at the beginning of combat to add to both his tanking and killing abilities. Between their weapon and armor proficiencies, spells, domain abilities, prestige classes, and alternative class options, clerics can do almost anything you want them to.
Soups
10-14-07, 11:52 PM Thanks for the advice all, much appreciated.

I am kinda suprised my playgroup doesn't do CoDzilla, like the boards say ravage the D&D lanscape. Its only funny because some DM always, for some unknown reason, allows shifter and orc Frenzy Beserkers. Boggles my mind, as the player usually ends up TPK most of the time.

Another question for those that would like to indulge me. I am in love with the Feral Template and Vow of Poverty. Are either of them "OFMG Br0kenzorz" like my play group seems to think they are?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soups 10-14-07, 02:47 AM	It's been a while since I have been on the wiz boards, so here i go. I know there have been a large number of alignment threads, so I will try not to run them over like a truck. My problem is my character for a brand new campaign. It all stems from one of my favorite books: Book of exhalted deeds. I just bought it and I love it to death. I know there are more powerful things out there in the vastness of D&D, but power gaming does have its place, but I look for characters that have a balance of not being a pushover in combat, while also not being a social retard (I enjoy roleplaying more so that others I know). My new party needed a heal bot. I volunteered, but I didn't want a typical cleric so originally i thought i would do a cleric of St. Cuthbert. But I didnt want to feel obligated to tank and kill and heal (I have horrible multitasking skills in the game when I play, keep it simple), So I decided to be a hippy. Something akin to an apostle of peace. So in order to make him the best 2nd level cleric hippy ever, I put vow of poverty and plan on vow on nonviolence and peace. First half of the problem is I want him to have a quirk that, he wants peace for everyone, and tries his best, but if no one listens to him, he beats the crap out of them. Non lethal damage wise ofcorse (think like anime chicks with thier hammers). Non of the vows says that you can not do non-lethal damage. Doesn't sound too hard. Second half of the problem is my DM. He also has a copy of the book. He has his own view on being this "exhalted character". He says if I ever do any damage or aggressive thingy, he will gank my vow feats and will be gone forever. He goes on about how "Exhalted characters should be the ultimate good." I kid you not,he said that palidians are easier to play because they will do good first then the law. It is ok for me, I mean, Alignments are guids, not strict rules. the PHB even says so. But according to my DM, exalted characters are set in stone. No way no how, will my character be able to do anything not lawfull good. Even though my alignment is chaotic good. This goes for any feat that comes from the book. What do I do? Is he being a rules jerk? is there a way to convince him that exalted characters aren't good nazis?(a la miko from OotS), and I can in fact wack people for not doing good, when common sense would apply that my character should do it? Can I defend my character from a demon? -Soups
calronmoonflower 10-14-07, 03:13 AM	Exalted characters are held to the highest moral standards. Beating the crap out of people that disagree with you, just because they disagree is immoral and smacks of lawful evil thinking. In this case it is also hypocritical. Asking that the dungeon master rule 0 the rules in your favor is fine, but the dungeon master always has the last word on such things.
Soups 10-14-07, 03:19 AM	Hm.. I see your point. His quirk would never to be beating up people. Its more of a last resort that he would hate to do. Kind of along the lines of, say there is a guy who is going to set off a...bomb, and I would be the only one to stop him. If the only way I could stop him is to knock him unconcious, would that be ok? I unsterstand exhalted characters are difficult to play, but I am of firm belief that they can't be zombie robots of good, even the diety isn't perfect ( ive read the gods section, they do make mistakes). They are humaniods after all.
calronmoonflower 10-14-07, 03:48 AM	Well in that case it would be fine. If he really gives you flack over this point him to the The DM's Paladin. Also you should read the feats more carefully, as they both say that you can deal non-lethal damage. Just remember that Vow of Peace means that you cannot assist in the killing of enemies by dealing non-lethal damage. You will be forced to take them prisoner.
Seeker95 10-14-07, 09:05 AM	I as DM would also say no. If for no other reason than this is a group game for 4-6 players (or however many the DM can handle). Your character concept is better for a solo game. Steven Segal with a slower fuse -- but still a solo artist. In a group game, your character has to fit with the group in general. Are you going to ask the rest of the party to use only non-lethal damage? If yes, then you are probably stepping on their character ideas and concepts that fit perfectly within a game of "find monsters, kill them, take their stuff". If you are not going to ask the rest of the party to use non-lethal damage, then you are playing a hypocrite character (I am NOT calling you a hypocrite). You won't kill, but you will enable killers by healing them. Vow of Peace is a concept best left to an NPC.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-14-07, 01:53 PM	Soups, your DM is 100% right about what exalted entails. (Not the lack of "h" in exalted. It's spelled like it's pronounced, with no "h" anywhere in the word) Anyway, being exalted IS in fact harder than being a paladin. Furthermore, your character wants to have Vow of Peace, but wants to beat people up for not listening to him? First off, you can't beat people up with Vow of Peace. That's what "Vow of Peace" means, you are completely and utterly nonviolent. Second, harming people for not listening to you is the textbook definition of "Good Nazi", your character will be exactly like Miko from OOtS. My theory is this entire post is meant to get reactions, because I can't imagine the thought processes that would lead you to these conclusions, except if they were designed to rile up people on the message boards.
Soups 10-14-07, 02:54 PM	No, I have an honest question. I am not trying to rile any one up (sorry, not a spelling nazi, get over it. Did I suddenly wind up in Redgar's Repository?). I suppose I myself did not fully understand what exalted fully entailed. In that case, for anyone who has suggestions, is a cleric of St. Cuthbert fun to play? I was thinking taking the Strength and Destruction domains. I assume the abilities the domains give you stack? If not, then I guess I am out of luck in playing a cleric that wont sit there and eat everything (I just don't have cleric experience. All of my playgroup plays the healbot that just sits there and does pretty much nothing). I do have access to complete divine, is a favored soul compareable to a normal cleric in fillling the role of a primary healer?
calronmoonflower 10-14-07, 03:33 PM	I do have access to complete divine, is a favored soul compareable to a normal cleric in fillling the role of a primary healer? It can be, but you have to use up spell slots on the healing spells. If you have the Player's Handbook II it has an alternate class feature that gives temporary hit points with buff spells as well. It might just be easier to change your character concept. The cleric can be quite an effective holy warrior type and still be a healer.
Fireclave 10-14-07, 04:24 PM	I was thinking taking the Strength and Destruction domains. I assume the abilities the domains give you stack? If not, then I guess I am out of luck in playing a cleric that wont sit there and eat everything (I just don't have cleric experience. The bonuses you get from the Strength and Destruction domains are not of the same type, nor are they from the same source. Therefore, they do stack. All of my playgroup plays the healbot that just sits there and does pretty much nothing). Apparently, your group has never heard of CoDzilla (Cleric-or-Druid-zilla). Clerics are one of the strongest classes in the game. If your clerics are only sitting their and healing, they are hardly living up to their full potential. I do have access to complete divine, is a favored soul compareable to a normal cleric in fillling the role of a primary healer? They can be, but generally, you would get more power and versatility from the Cleric. Clerics have access to the entire cleric list when they prepare their spells and can convert prepared spells into cure as needed. Favored Souls are limited only to their relatively small spells known list. If you don't have much experience with either, I suggest being a cleric over a favored soul. My new party needed a heal bot. I volunteered, but I didn't want a typical cleric so originally i thought i would do a cleric of St. Cuthbert. But I didnt want to feel obligated to tank and kill and heal (I have horrible multitasking skills in the game when I play, keep it simple), Then don't feel obligated to fill all those roles. Just pick one or two. Clerics are versatile enough that they can fill out other rolls without even trying. For example, a heal-focused cleric only needs to drop a Summon Monster spell or two at the beginning of combat to add to both his tanking and killing abilities. Between their weapon and armor proficiencies, spells, domain abilities, prestige classes, and alternative class options, clerics can do almost anything you want them to.
Soups 10-14-07, 11:52 PM	Thanks for the advice all, much appreciated. I am kinda suprised my playgroup doesn't do CoDzilla, like the boards say ravage the D&D lanscape. Its only funny because some DM always, for some unknown reason, allows shifter and orc Frenzy Beserkers. Boggles my mind, as the player usually ends up TPK most of the time. Another question for those that would like to indulge me. I am in love with the Feral Template and Vow of Poverty. Are either of them "OFMG Br0kenzorz" like my play group seems to think they are?