Alignment problems (everyone's evil) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment problems (everyone's evil) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PineBark
10-23-06, 04:30 PM I'm having some problems with my group. Everyone in it is pretty much evil or inbetween neutral and evil. And naturally, most of them picked Chaotic Neutral. We're newbs in dnd so we adjust a lot of things as we go, so I've talked with our DM about this CN-do-whatever-the-hell-I-wish alignment and he agreed that it's stupid and decided to start keeping track of out of alignment actions more strictly and if the player drifts off too much into some other alignment it will be changed and the player will suffer a large experience penality, but he wants to give them one last chance to change their alignment into something they will roleplay. Well, knowing them I know they'll all change into CE or NE (since their CN characters are already acting pretty evilish).

Well that's fine and all but I'm getting tired of them playing evil characters all the time. I seem to be the only one who plays various alignments, trying to roleplay each one correctly, while everyone else picks any alignment that would allow them to do whatever they want.
So, my question is, how would I go about presenting them the idea of actualy roleplaying something you are not? Becouse they don't seem to get the idea...

PS: The DM doesn't want to ban evil alignments. And even if he did, they still would act the same, "nobody can stop us from acting the way we want" as they would put it.

[/whiny post with some really bad grammar]
Lina_Inverse
10-23-06, 05:37 PM Have your GM enforce consequenses for there actions.

Its that simple.

Or just pull out some helms of reverse alingments. A party of CEs and NEs become LGs and NGs.
Puca
10-23-06, 05:45 PM We're newbs in dnd so we adjust a lot of things as we go,Great idea: but it is easier and far more fair to change what was written on the character sheet to match the true nature of the character than to ask the character to change his personality to match his character sheet.

Your characters have personalities and existence that you didnt have when they were mere "character sheets" on which someone penciled-in CN.

I dont think he should impose an xp penalty. He should have said what he expected from a CN player before the game. Lesson learned. Use your eraser. No harm - no foul.
Reversefigure4
10-23-06, 05:52 PM If I were getting XP penalties if alignment changed, I'd want to play evil too. Doing good actions can be justified with evil reasons far easier than evil actions can be justified with good reasons.
Jhaelen
10-23-06, 06:32 PM PS: The DM doesn't want to ban evil alignments. And even if he did, they still would act the same, "nobody can stop us from acting the way we want" as they would put it.I'd recommend looking for a different group then.
kelvinaw273
10-23-06, 06:40 PM One word: Consequences.

If players want to act evil, let them. Let them steal and kill mercilessly. Let them be seen. Let them be hunted down for it by bounty hunters. Let them be put on trial. Let them try to escape imprisonment. Let them have bounties on their heads. Let them try to find anyone to sell their loot to once they have. Let them fiond themselves hunted by other adventurers with more sense and better morals.

And brook no whining from them in the mean time. You don't want to be hunted for murder? Meh, should have thought about that before you killed the merchant. You didn't want to hang? Well, attacking and killing that prison guard wasn't such a bright idea then, was it? I didn't tell you this would happen? You mean you couldn't guess - you wanted to play how you wanted, remember?
Ashok_Lal
10-23-06, 07:11 PM One word: Consequences.

If players want to act evil, let them. Let them steal and kill mercilessly. Let them be seen. Let them be hunted down for it by bounty hunters. Let them be put on trial. Let them try to escape imprisonment. Let them have bounties on their heads. Let them try to find anyone to sell their loot to once they have. Let them fiond themselves hunted by other adventurers with more sense and better morals.

And brook no whining from them in the mean time. You don't want to be hunted for murder? Meh, should have thought about that before you killed the merchant. You didn't want to hang? Well, attacking and killing that prison guard wasn't such a bright idea then, was it? I didn't tell you this would happen? You mean you couldn't guess - you wanted to play how you wanted, remember?

:clap: :cheer: :cheer: :clap: :clap:
Tyler Do'Urden
10-23-06, 07:59 PM Two words: smite evil.
devinmdp
10-23-06, 11:00 PM No one new to D&D should play evil. Learn to play good before branching out into the harder to master alignments.

No evil is not hard to play. But an evil PARTY is very hard to play. After all, how do you even begin to keep a group of CE PCs together? In "real life" CE groups stick together because there is a strong leader who dominates the rest. Unless your players are fine with a single player having an uber PC that can wipe the floor with them, then by definition such a group will eventually fall apart.

That said...it's not impossible. I recommend that EVERYONE wanting to play an evil party read the Drow War of the SpiderQueen series. In it, a thoroughly evil party forms, adventures for a long time, and...well I won't give it away....but it is an excellent example of how a bunch of evil people who generally hate eachother can adventure together.

But it's not easy.

Devin
PineBark
10-24-06, 12:05 AM Wow, thanks for all the advice, it's really helpful.
I'll have a word with the DM today and ask him to impose consequences much more strictly. Up until now he let a lot of things slip so that the whole party wouldn't end up dead too soon (though one of the PCs is in jail now and the other one almost went there for insulting and attacking a town guard, but those were too extreme to let them get away with it). Maybe with very strict consequences they won't act like they do now (after their character gets killed, I suppose).

The exp penality is so they wouldn't change alignments simply if they want to for no good reason, I see it as an exp penality for bad roleplaying. That's why the DM wants to give them one last chance to change to a suitable alignment, so the exp hit wouldn't happen. And he does notify when an alignment of a PC starts sliping, so the exp hit wouldn't be too unexpected.

And walking out of the group is not an option. Maybe they're annoying, but they're still my friends and I still enjoy gaming with them.
Reversefigure4
10-24-06, 07:57 PM The exp penality is so they wouldn't change alignments simply if they want to for no good reason, I see it as an exp penality for bad roleplaying. That's why the DM wants to give them one last chance to change to a suitable alignment, so the exp hit wouldn't happen. And he does notify when an alignment of a PC starts sliping, so the exp hit wouldn't be too unexpected.

It might work for your group with the style you play, but I don't like it as a general rule. Suppose you have this situation (mostly yoinked off the top of my head):

A LN character (let's say a fighter), who believes firmly in a set code of honour of only challenging those stronger than you. He's not good - doesn't defend the weak, help people unless he benefits, etc, but nor is he evil, as he's quite upright and honest. Over time adventuring, he slowly falls in love with the LG Paladin in his group, and slowly begins to violate his code in order to help and impress her. He begins to understand that good is a force of more value than honour... and somewhere in here, his alignment is probably going to shift to NG or LG.

What happens? He gets plastered with XP penalties for actually roleplaying and having the character evolve as a result of his experiences.

Like I said, probably not a problem for your group, but I don't like the rule in general.
PineBark
10-25-06, 01:43 AM [snip] What happens? He gets plastered with XP penalties for actually roleplaying and having the character evolve as a result of his experiences.

Oh, that'd be an exception. I did say "changing alignment for no good reason", and that I see as a perfectly good reason. Infact the DM might award exp if the character manages to act it out good enough. While if the character would just say "**** it" and starts killing innocent people around he'd definately deserve a penality.

IMO anyway :P
ArcTan
10-25-06, 07:21 AM As for myself, I'm not a big fan of tracking alignment in general, or in the long run of being a hardass against players playing what they wanna play.

I mean... yes, an Evil party can be annoying if you get the sense the reason they're doing it is to keep the world shallow and unbelievable -- a world where they can rape and murder and pillage and not feel at all bad about it is a world the players have no emotional investment in.

But if that floats their boat, it's their business. If you want something deeper than that, you just may have to find a different group. I don't see using game mechanics to try to *force* them to play in a way they don't like turning out at all well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PineBark 10-23-06, 04:30 PM	I'm having some problems with my group. Everyone in it is pretty much evil or inbetween neutral and evil. And naturally, most of them picked Chaotic Neutral. We're newbs in dnd so we adjust a lot of things as we go, so I've talked with our DM about this CN-do-whatever-the-hell-I-wish alignment and he agreed that it's stupid and decided to start keeping track of out of alignment actions more strictly and if the player drifts off too much into some other alignment it will be changed and the player will suffer a large experience penality, but he wants to give them one last chance to change their alignment into something they will roleplay. Well, knowing them I know they'll all change into CE or NE (since their CN characters are already acting pretty evilish). Well that's fine and all but I'm getting tired of them playing evil characters all the time. I seem to be the only one who plays various alignments, trying to roleplay each one correctly, while everyone else picks any alignment that would allow them to do whatever they want. So, my question is, how would I go about presenting them the idea of actualy roleplaying something you are not? Becouse they don't seem to get the idea... PS: The DM doesn't want to ban evil alignments. And even if he did, they still would act the same, "nobody can stop us from acting the way we want" as they would put it. [/whiny post with some really bad grammar]
Lina_Inverse 10-23-06, 05:37 PM	Have your GM enforce consequenses for there actions. Its that simple. Or just pull out some helms of reverse alingments. A party of CEs and NEs become LGs and NGs.
Puca 10-23-06, 05:45 PM	We're newbs in dnd so we adjust a lot of things as we go,Great idea: but it is easier and far more fair to change what was written on the character sheet to match the true nature of the character than to ask the character to change his personality to match his character sheet. Your characters have personalities and existence that you didnt have when they were mere "character sheets" on which someone penciled-in CN. I dont think he should impose an xp penalty. He should have said what he expected from a CN player before the game. Lesson learned. Use your eraser. No harm - no foul.
Reversefigure4 10-23-06, 05:52 PM	If I were getting XP penalties if alignment changed, I'd want to play evil too. Doing good actions can be justified with evil reasons far easier than evil actions can be justified with good reasons.
Jhaelen 10-23-06, 06:32 PM	PS: The DM doesn't want to ban evil alignments. And even if he did, they still would act the same, "nobody can stop us from acting the way we want" as they would put it.I'd recommend looking for a different group then.
kelvinaw273 10-23-06, 06:40 PM	One word: Consequences. If players want to act evil, let them. Let them steal and kill mercilessly. Let them be seen. Let them be hunted down for it by bounty hunters. Let them be put on trial. Let them try to escape imprisonment. Let them have bounties on their heads. Let them try to find anyone to sell their loot to once they have. Let them fiond themselves hunted by other adventurers with more sense and better morals. And brook no whining from them in the mean time. You don't want to be hunted for murder? Meh, should have thought about that before you killed the merchant. You didn't want to hang? Well, attacking and killing that prison guard wasn't such a bright idea then, was it? I didn't tell you this would happen? You mean you couldn't guess - you wanted to play how you wanted, remember?
Ashok_Lal 10-23-06, 07:11 PM	One word: Consequences. If players want to act evil, let them. Let them steal and kill mercilessly. Let them be seen. Let them be hunted down for it by bounty hunters. Let them be put on trial. Let them try to escape imprisonment. Let them have bounties on their heads. Let them try to find anyone to sell their loot to once they have. Let them fiond themselves hunted by other adventurers with more sense and better morals. And brook no whining from them in the mean time. You don't want to be hunted for murder? Meh, should have thought about that before you killed the merchant. You didn't want to hang? Well, attacking and killing that prison guard wasn't such a bright idea then, was it? I didn't tell you this would happen? You mean you couldn't guess - you wanted to play how you wanted, remember? :clap: :cheer: :cheer: :clap: :clap:
Tyler Do'Urden 10-23-06, 07:59 PM	Two words: smite evil.
devinmdp 10-23-06, 11:00 PM	No one new to D&D should play evil. Learn to play good before branching out into the harder to master alignments. No evil is not hard to play. But an evil PARTY is very hard to play. After all, how do you even begin to keep a group of CE PCs together? In "real life" CE groups stick together because there is a strong leader who dominates the rest. Unless your players are fine with a single player having an uber PC that can wipe the floor with them, then by definition such a group will eventually fall apart. That said...it's not impossible. I recommend that EVERYONE wanting to play an evil party read the Drow War of the SpiderQueen series. In it, a thoroughly evil party forms, adventures for a long time, and...well I won't give it away....but it is an excellent example of how a bunch of evil people who generally hate eachother can adventure together. But it's not easy. Devin
PineBark 10-24-06, 12:05 AM	Wow, thanks for all the advice, it's really helpful. I'll have a word with the DM today and ask him to impose consequences much more strictly. Up until now he let a lot of things slip so that the whole party wouldn't end up dead too soon (though one of the PCs is in jail now and the other one almost went there for insulting and attacking a town guard, but those were too extreme to let them get away with it). Maybe with very strict consequences they won't act like they do now (after their character gets killed, I suppose). The exp penality is so they wouldn't change alignments simply if they want to for no good reason, I see it as an exp penality for bad roleplaying. That's why the DM wants to give them one last chance to change to a suitable alignment, so the exp hit wouldn't happen. And he does notify when an alignment of a PC starts sliping, so the exp hit wouldn't be too unexpected. And walking out of the group is not an option. Maybe they're annoying, but they're still my friends and I still enjoy gaming with them.
Reversefigure4 10-24-06, 07:57 PM	The exp penality is so they wouldn't change alignments simply if they want to for no good reason, I see it as an exp penality for bad roleplaying. That's why the DM wants to give them one last chance to change to a suitable alignment, so the exp hit wouldn't happen. And he does notify when an alignment of a PC starts sliping, so the exp hit wouldn't be too unexpected. It might work for your group with the style you play, but I don't like it as a general rule. Suppose you have this situation (mostly yoinked off the top of my head): A LN character (let's say a fighter), who believes firmly in a set code of honour of only challenging those stronger than you. He's not good - doesn't defend the weak, help people unless he benefits, etc, but nor is he evil, as he's quite upright and honest. Over time adventuring, he slowly falls in love with the LG Paladin in his group, and slowly begins to violate his code in order to help and impress her. He begins to understand that good is a force of more value than honour... and somewhere in here, his alignment is probably going to shift to NG or LG. What happens? He gets plastered with XP penalties for actually roleplaying and having the character evolve as a result of his experiences. Like I said, probably not a problem for your group, but I don't like the rule in general.
PineBark 10-25-06, 01:43 AM	[snip] What happens? He gets plastered with XP penalties for actually roleplaying and having the character evolve as a result of his experiences. Oh, that'd be an exception. I did say "changing alignment for no good reason", and that I see as a perfectly good reason. Infact the DM might award exp if the character manages to act it out good enough. While if the character would just say "**** it" and starts killing innocent people around he'd definately deserve a penality. IMO anyway :P
ArcTan 10-25-06, 07:21 AM	As for myself, I'm not a big fan of tracking alignment in general, or in the long run of being a hardass against players playing what they wanna play. I mean... yes, an Evil party can be annoying if you get the sense the reason they're doing it is to keep the world shallow and unbelievable -- a world where they can rape and murder and pillage and not feel at all bad about it is a world the players have no emotional investment in. But if that floats their boat, it's their business. If you want something deeper than that, you just may have to find a different group. I don't see using game mechanics to try to force them to play in a way they don't like turning out at all well.