Post/Author/DateTime	Post
imparooo 09-13-04, 06:49 AM	During our last game session we were in Tradegate (the planar town in Planescape, leading to Bytopia), in a tavern trying to relax, when suddenly a mercenary went crazy, quarrelling with two merchants and then falling to the ground like he was epilectic. Then he became a Werewolf, and started killing people everywhere, from the townguards to the innocent bystanders. Our party cleric (CG) had found a silvered keen short sword +1, but she refused to use it against him because she had qualms about killing a "diseased" fellow (she is a lycanthrope too, but she can control her illness). And she didn't want us to use it against him, too. At last I convinced her to lend us the sword, telling her that it wasn't very Good to let so many people die by a Lycanthrope (who didn't try at all to stop his transformation), and finally we made the beast unconscious after a fierce fight. We wanted to kill the werewolf, but the DM said it was an Evil act. What do you think about it?
PSchirf 09-13-04, 07:07 AM	If you stop killing werewolves and start looking for a cure instead you may as well be roleplaying an episode of ER. When DMs insist on using the modern humanistic alignment system we end up with silly "protect the killer so we can cure him" play that doesn't resemble the historical alignment definition nor the rolemodel found in fantasy literature. And when characters can't look to guidance from the in-game religions players have no clue how to behave. Another alignment issue solved by this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=298445).
Marchen 09-13-04, 07:32 AM	How do you know he is diseased? What if he is a natural lycanthrope? Regardless, werewolves are Chaotic Evil. In the Monster Manual it says always Chaotic Evil, and a good werewolf is something I would not want to see in a game. Ever. Since when is killing an evil creature considered an evil act...
Noria Merfolk Mage 09-13-04, 07:37 AM	I think this is a fair way to go about things. The alignment model can work all kinds of different ways, between "kill the evil" to "cure the taint". The model your DM and cleric are using is valid IMO. What you have to decide is if your character agrees with this. Do you see this werewolf as a person cursed or diseased, or a bad guy with unusual powers. RP your thoughts to the others as the party moves forward, and make you feelings known to the DM.
Noria Merfolk Mage 09-13-04, 07:52 AM	How do you know he is diseased? What if he is a natural lycanthrope? Regardless, werewolves are Chaotic Evil. In the Monster Manual it says always Chaotic Evil, and a good werewolf is something I would not want to see in a game. Ever. Since when is killing an evil creature considered an evil act... Always doesn't need always when it comes to alignment. Whether its 1 in a 100 or 1 in a million, there will be exceptions. Plus, if it is an afflicted lycanthrope, that CE alignment has been forced upon it, and there's no telling what kind of person there is underneath. I personally don't like the way they did alignments for lycanthropes, making the alignment depend on the reputation of the animal of all things. But then I don't like lycanthropes anyway. Shifters are cool though. Note that their DM may have other reasons for them not wanting to kill the werewolf. It's quite possible that he's a plot character and that killing him would leave the DM without a plot. Not the best way to design an adventure, but it happens that way.
imparooo 09-13-04, 08:12 AM	Note that their DM may have other reasons for them not wanting to kill the werewolf. It's quite possible that he's a plot character and that killing him would leave the DM without a plot. Not the best way to design an adventure, but it happens that way. Well, I don't think he's a plot character... he could have been killed in the process, he just came up being unconscious after I managed to force a silvered dagger in his eye (due to a lucky critical) and the party ranger inflicted the final strike with the broken silver sword (the beast sundered it during the fight). I just wanted to understand whether it is non-Evil to kill a werewolf the round after you've made it unconscious. I mean, in the heat of a fight you have risked your life, barely escaped its toothy maw dripping blood, risked to be infected, seen him maime and kill innocent people, and finally you make him drop. Then, you swing your weapons in its still body just to make sure he doesn't rise again... is this evil?
Naeron 09-13-04, 08:21 AM	The thing is that even though an afflicted lycanthrope has little control over their change they will eventually retain knowledge and realise their condition (its a DC15 will save for each episode) even if they have, in the meantime, changed alignments. So for a long-term afflicted lycantrope if they don't try and seek some form of help they are voluntarily acting in an evil manner all the time. This makes them non-innocent so makes it valid to treat them as you would any evil creature. Even if this was a early transformation you are still, in D&D terms, performing a good act by killing the werewolf to protect the lives of innocents. The Good alignments are based on preserving innocent life from any threat, which includes nominally good beings. Good charaters would indeed prefer to subdue and cure the werewolf later if possible and would try non-lethal methods first, but if those are not available or do not work then killing the werewolf to protect innocent life is not an evil act no matter what its original form.
von Szass 09-13-04, 08:25 AM	IMO it's securing, unless you're a paladin... They have their personal jail (the forced LG alignment, Code of Conduct, etc.) which should prevent them from this 'securing', they are as good as forced to arrest the unconsious evil-doers and bring them to local authorities.
Rian Lightblade 09-13-04, 02:13 PM	Attempting to subdue or kill a CE creature that's rampaging in a tavern and killing innocent bystanders, is an EVIL act? Wow I'd hate to see what happens if you try to save a band of people from slavers or attempt to destroy a group of mercenaries that are holding a village in thrall (a la Seven Samurai). IMO, and I think the opinion of most of the other posters, not attempting to at least subdue the creature would be an evil act for any good character, especially for a Paladin. Actively resisting to aid in subduing of the creature should call for an immediate check for an alignment shift or just a plain shift (depending on the DM). No good character should, IMO, suffer a werewolf that is currently attacking, to live or least remain conscious (on the possibility that it might be a infected Lycanthrope, rather then a natural one). Not even a Paladin would hesitate in this since the blood of each person slain would be on their hands. Better to stop it even if it means slaying it, save many lives and repent later (if it turned out to be an infected werewolf) then to sit back and let it kill just because it might be unaware of or not in control of it's actions. Naeron post really hits the nail on the head. The thing is that even though an afflicted lycanthrope has little control over their change they will eventually retain knowledge and realize their condition (its a DC15 will save for each episode) even if they have, in the meantime, changed alignments. So for a long-term afflicted lycanthrope if they don't try and seek some form of help they are voluntarily acting in an evil manner all the time. This makes them non-innocent so makes it valid to treat them as you would any evil creature. Even if this was a early transformation you are still, in D&D terms, performing a good act by killing the werewolf to protect the lives of innocents. The Good alignments are based on preserving innocent life from any threat, which includes nominally good beings. You and the others who fought the creature did the right thing. The only thing a good PC could have done. So really the only one in you group who preformed an evil action was the supposedly, CG, cleric. Who had to be coerced into even lending a tool to stop the creature. I'd keep an eye on her if I were you, cause in my experience (as a Player and a DM) any infected lycanthrope that claims to be maintaining control is really just maintaining the illusion of control. I just wanted to understand whether it is non-Evil to kill a werewolf the round after you've made it unconscious. For this question, I'd say it is a dishonorable, or a very minor evil act, akin to fighting dirty in a duel. I'd make note of your actions and if you did it again I might make an alignment check. Since once it's unconscious you can then determine if it's affected or not. If it's a natural werewolf, then I'd say slice that puppy (no pun intended) up and rest in the knowledge that you've done some good. If it's infected then the whole idea of if the fella knows about his condition or not come into play. If they know and still exposed innocents to danger then turn them over to the local law, cause even if they were cured, they have turned evil and basically committed mass murder. If they were not aware then they can repent and possibly be saved.
HamHam 09-13-04, 09:32 PM	It would seem to me that while sometimes vigilante adventurer justice is necessary, it should only be a last resort. Thus, imho, the point here isn't whether he's a werewolf, what kind of werewolf, etc but rather that he's already unconcious, you're in a town of some kind, so that should be some form of appropriate authority that should take things from here.
imparooo 09-14-04, 04:19 AM	Thank you all for the answers! Rian Lightblade, your post is really interesting... well, you're right, I'll keep an eye on the party cleric, her demeneour doesn not really encourage me in trusting her. Well, I didn't know much about the difference between "natural" and "affected" lycanthropes, probably the best thing to do is to hand him to the local authorites (we are in Tradegate, the planar town, after all,a supposedly LG/NG town!).
Rian Lightblade 09-14-04, 12:28 PM	Thank you all for the answers! Rian Lightblade, your post is really interesting... well, you're right, I'll keep an eye on the party cleric, her demeneour doesn not really encourage me in trusting her. Well, I didn't know much about the difference between "natural" and "affected" lycanthropes, probably the best thing to do is to hand him to the local authorites (we are in Tradegate, the planar town, after all,a supposedly LG/NG town!). You're welcome! To answer your other question. A natural werewolf or Lycanthrope was born into a family of lycanthropes. They follow all the stats and rules on the breed, weakness, alignment, etc, and have complete control of their faculties regards of the form they are in. An infected or affected (or whatever term you use) is one who was bitten by a lycanthrope and now shifts uncontrollably into whatever breed of lycanthrope the person was bitten by. They shift according to circumstances determined by breed, ex. full moon for werewolves. When they shift they turn into little more then mindless beast bent on killing. The person retains almost no memory of the shift. Therefore, at first, they are unaware of their condition. But time goes by they become aware (via WIS check) and can then begin the long process of curing themselves.