Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lina_Inverse 05-12-07, 10:58 PM	This is not a discussion about the virtues or failings of the D&D alignment system. This is a discussion about the system as written and the inner workings thereof. In the core D&D cosmology the gray wastes are the plane of purest and ultimate evil, they are expressed in the form of apathy. This implies that apathy is the greatest form of evil. Does this mean that watching someone be killed and eaten by a Demon/Tanari without a care and doing nothing is actually a worse act than the killing and eating of the Demon/Tanari.
Seeker95 05-12-07, 11:12 PM	Does this mean that watching someone be killed and eaten by a Demon/Tanari without a care and doing nothing is actually a worse act than the killing and eating of the Demon/Tanari.I believe this to be true. It is Neutral Evil. Lawful and Chaotic Evil have form, function, and intent beyond outside the evil itself. Even chaos is bound by an order of disorder before it is bound by the evil it fans. For both of these, evil is a means to an end. For the Neutral Evil, evil is both the end and the means of its achievement. Apathy places the means and the end as equal in weight and value. No care for the means, no concern for the outcome. Evil most vile.
JulesCARV 05-12-07, 11:23 PM	I don't think that that's how I would interpret it, exactly. Rather, it's that the Grey Waste is so oppressive and hopeless that it reduces people to apathy. It's like, in the concentration camps, it was noted that some people became what were known in the language of the camps as Muselmänner -- people who, thanks to extreme starvation, exhaustion, and the general atmosphere of the camps, became completely indifferent to their fate, insensitive to their surroundings, not bothering to get up to go to the bathroom and defecating on themselves, etc. Would anyone point at such a concentration camp inmate and say "he's apathetic! Eeeeeeeevil!"? No, of course not. Rather, it's that the evil conditions of the camps were so overwhelming and oppressive that they reduces people to apathy. The Grey Waste isn't evil because its petitioners are apathetic. The Grey Waste's petitioners are apathetic because the plane is so evil.
Vaelan 05-13-07, 12:35 AM	In the core D&D cosmology the gray wastes are the plane of purest and ultimate evil, they are expressed in the form of apathy. This implies that apathy is the greatest form of evil. No. The DMG says that Hades defines the nature of Evil. It is the nature of Evil to create apathy and despair, just as it is the nature of the plane to create apathy and despair. That doesn't mean that apathy and despair are Evil. Does this mean that watching someone be killed and eaten by a Demon/Tanari without a care and doing nothing is actually a worse act than the killing and eating of the Demon/Tanari. No. The claim that there is a moral obligation to help that if not met means you're Evil denies the existence of Neutrality. Since Neutrality is part of the alignment system, the claim is, obviously, false.
Seeker95 05-13-07, 07:49 AM	Despite my post above (which I still hold to be reasonable regarding the evil of apathy), JulesCARV and Vaelan have provided a much better explanation for the association of the Gray Waste with Apathy.
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 08:00 AM	as Muselmänner These days I believe it would be called Catatonia.
zvbxrpl 05-13-07, 02:21 PM	The deal with the grey waste is that is meant to be a metaphysical manifestation of depression. It drains your will to live until you just shamble around as a petitioner. It is the greatest form of evil because it doesn't just destroy the bodies of innocents, but their spirits as well.