Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crustaceomutoid 01-30-05, 02:25 PM	Looking for the absolute worst illustration Wizards ever allowed to be published in one of their books. Please submit the title of the book, page number and artists name. The opposite to this thread, the greatest illustrations, is located here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=371906
Draco Strang 01-30-05, 02:31 PM	I have to say, I think that the picture of the half-drow and half-moon elves By Vince Locke on page 62 of Races of Faerun takes the cake. They are without a doubt some of the absolute stupidest looking Dungeons and Dragons characters ever. Gosh....those smiles. It burns my eyes folks. Also, some of the stuff in Magic of Faerun is dumb. And the original Blackguard in the 3.0 DMG.
The White Sorcerer 01-30-05, 02:37 PM	All of the so-called "dragons" in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, by various artists, are quite ugly.
Callahan 01-30-05, 02:44 PM	I have to say, I think that the picture of the half-drow and half-moon elves By Vince Locke on page 62 of Races of Faerun takes the cake. They are without a doubt some of the absolute stupidest looking Dungeons and Dragons characters ever. Gosh....those smiles. It burns my eyes folks. Also, some of the stuff in Magic of Faerun is dumb. And the original Blackguard in the 3.0 DMG. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49746.jpg if not for the joker face they would not be too bad. Anything by McClain however is awful. He has that sort of style that makes any character look like a head of cabbage.
MetalGemini 01-30-05, 03:11 PM	All of the so-called "dragons" in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, by various artists, are quite ugly. The Brass Dragon from DCS is particularly bad. Anything by McClain however is awful. He has that sort of style that makes any character look like a head of cabbage. Crabapple McClain takes the cake though. His style just doesn't mesh with the rest of the books he's in. All those pastels and faded colors just don't work well against someone like Wayne England or Franz Vohwinkel. I can't pick one picture, so I'll just stick with all of McClain's art
Egres 01-30-05, 03:38 PM	Just look:http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75403.jpg
crustaceomutoid 01-30-05, 03:47 PM	Just look Just so you all know... it was this particular image that made me start this thread ;)
Azual 01-30-05, 03:55 PM	wow... that one above is just plain bad, tough i must tell you, i bring these books to school the sorcerer with about three square inches of clothing on really makes me not buy the book, i mean, the paladin or monk from the PHB are girls, but arent Succubi. :) Oh yeah, its come to the point now where i can tellt he artist (such as wayne engalnd) just by looking at the pictures, I.e. i was looking at the Mage Knight 2.0 boxes and knew it was England, turns out i was right.
atheolos 01-30-05, 03:57 PM	Crabapple McClain takes the cake though. His style just doesn't mesh with the rest of the books he's in. All those pastels and faded colors just don't work well against someone like Wayne England or Franz Vohwinkel. I can't pick one picture, so I'll just stick with all of McClain's art It's surprising, because his work on magic items (for example, in serpent kingdoms) is pretty good. It's not that he's a horrible artist, he just shouldn't do monsters. BTW, I think Wayne England is awesome.
Azual 01-30-05, 04:01 PM	just looked at the DCS, man these pcitures are bad, especially the Linsha Majere, man woman, Gilthas, wow UGLY, the minotaur, all of em, ESPEcially the skeletal warrior WHOA! STINKER! oh ya, WHAT IS UP WITH THE GNOME, he looks like SO bad its HORRIBLE, ITS EITHER GYPSY-DUDE or the Gnome Illusionist, DONT DEVIATE. This is coming from a proud card holder of Gnome-is-a-core-race-too foundation
Callahan 01-30-05, 04:09 PM	It's surprising, because his work on magic items (for example, in serpent kingdoms) is pretty good. It's not that he's a horrible artist, he just shouldn't do monsters. BTW, I think Wayne England is awesome. all of his characters have exactly the same expression. That blank, looking in to the depths of the void look that just makes you think that any monster or character he ever draws wishes to die a slow and painful death.
Callahan 01-30-05, 04:17 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86313.jpg this is classic
crustaceomutoid 01-30-05, 04:38 PM	Monster Manual II, pg. 123, artist initials "MM"... this thing must have solid steel I-Beam for a spine... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_67.jpg
e-z0r 01-30-05, 04:49 PM	I've kind of always hated the PHB Monk picture.. You know, the one with the man who has boobies?
crustaceomutoid 01-30-05, 04:52 PM	I've kind of always hated the PHB Monk picture.. You know, the one with the man who has boobies? Actually, that is a woman, think Amazon.
Wharin 01-30-05, 05:00 PM	Just look:http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75403.jpg Man, you best leave Rebecca Guay alone, sucka! :P She is one of my all time favorite artists, though i agree that there is something wrong with the angle of the crossbow. It doesnt seem flush. I also dont think that this picture quite matches up with the prestige class that it was stuck to, but if there was some sort of (dwarven) Valkerie PrG, this would fit nicely. My biggest Beef with Crabapple is that he puts way to many lines on the faces of the people he draws. They are just too busy. Pronounced bags under the eyes makes the people in his drawing look like crack-addicts and whatnot. If he were to simple be more simplistic with their faces (and leave the shading to colortones, instead of cross-hatching and stuff) i am sure his drawings would be much more well recieved.
atheolos 01-30-05, 05:09 PM	Monster Manual II, pg. 123, artist initials "MM"... this thing must have solid steel I-Beam for a spine... Monte Michael Moore? The T-Rex armed woman is probably the worst ever, from an objective point of view. That's also Monte Michael Moore. I don't think it's fair to judge a good artist like Jeff Miracola from one bad piece, but when people put out a whole series of bad work or work that doesn't really fit the thing it's describing (Crabapple), then I think you're justified for criticising them.
Derren S. 01-30-05, 05:11 PM	Is it true that WotC was responsible for the DLCS art despite it beeing published by a other compans in cooperation? I think I heared something like this.
crustaceomutoid 01-30-05, 05:21 PM	Originally Posted by Wharin, "Man, you best leave Rebecca Guay alone, sucka! She is one of my all time favorite artists..." Umm, hmm, ok. If she is in any way handicapped I rescind all my opinion and comments about her works (eg. she paints with her feet or mouth or something). Or she is under the age of 10. Monster Manual II, pg. 119, same artist, RGM http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_71.jpg
Kalanth 01-30-05, 06:14 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75398.jpg This one has always made me feel a bit quesy.
Callahan 01-30-05, 06:17 PM	Actually, that is a woman, think Amazon. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/DanHibiki/conandestroyer3.jpg Think Grace Jones... or don't. Best that you don't.
e-z0r 01-30-05, 06:29 PM	Actually, that is a woman, think Amazon. :rofl: I know what it's SUPPOSED to be. I was being sarcastic. C'mon, look at it! Clearly it is a man with boobies. Or a very ugly woman. EDIT: The Grace Jones connection was awesome! Talk about names NOT being omens. Brrrrrr..
Encard 01-30-05, 06:38 PM	I'd have to second that horrible tiefling-thing Callahan posted... Another set of bad ones, though, is the gem dragons from the MM2, like this Amethyst Dragon: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_36.jpg
crustaceomutoid 01-30-05, 06:42 PM	Heh, sorry e-z0r... my detect sarcasm roll fumbled on that one :)
Egres 01-30-05, 06:52 PM	This one has always made me feel a bit quesy. Quesy? :embarrass
Kalanth 01-30-05, 08:01 PM	Quesy? :embarrass Oops, forgot the a. . . Meant Queasy.
Fox Lee 01-30-05, 08:40 PM	Eberron Campaign setting, the opposite page from the "Introduction" page. This artist's work is just plain freakin' ugly, all through the book. Also, BoED: Ron Spencer, as much as I like plenty of his work, is not the right artist to draw things divine. Or, really, anything with a human face ^^; His faces are not good. Ohyeah - the tiefling in the MM 3.5 - OH GOD. Anybgody who draws breastplates like that needs a good kicking >_____<;;;;
Gilgiga of the Hunt 01-30-05, 08:48 PM	Rebeca is usualy a great artist. But at first I thought that pic was someone imtateing her style. No such luck. It looks like she started to draw the crosbow one way, the nstoped and drew it from another angle. To many paint fumes I guess. And you're not raggin' on the Lady of Stairs are you. I love the pic. I can stare at that thing for hours and still be like WTF. That picture alone inspired a dungeon. As for worst art. I'll take the Dragons from DLCS for just god awful.
Arcane Guyver 01-30-05, 11:16 PM	I actually like the Dark Hunter illustration, save for the wierd crossbow. Has a nice storybook-look to it that meshes better with the other art than 90% of Crabapple's work. The dwarven samurai pic is ok, I suppose. Pretty darn generic, nothing that would make me want to play the class. Thinking about it further, the picture doesn't even match the class well - half the abilities for the Samurai are based on two-weapon fighting. Complete Arcane is an absolute treasure trove of horrendus artwork. However, it does have this, one of my favorite bits of D&D art: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85459.jpg
The White Sorcerer 01-31-05, 01:05 AM	Eberron Campaign setting, the opposite page from the "Introduction" page. This artist's work is just plain freakin' ugly, all through the book. Frazer Irving? I quite like the chapter starters he did.
Draco Strang 01-31-05, 03:16 AM	Frazer Irving? I quite like the chapter starters he did. Yea, it's very comicbook-esque in it's execution. I like it too.
Escef 01-31-05, 03:26 AM	Sorry, but if you read the card, you officially can't rag on Lady Guay.
John Q. Mayhem 01-31-05, 09:09 AM	I have never seen a RGM picture I liked. The colours...Oh God, the colours...I now have nightmares in pastels.
MadApplejack 01-31-05, 09:38 AM	Pretty much anything by Crabapple is bad, but I think Masters of the Wild may be the worst. There was one particular illustration, for some sort of detective-like prestige class, that is simply horrendous. There's this gnome with a magnifying glass investigating a dead body, and all the background figures are supposed to be in shadow, but Crabapple's just incapable of depicting that, so the gnome looks as though he has this bizarre cross between a smoke elemental and the Michelin Man staring over his shoulder.
TheUnknownZombie 01-31-05, 10:14 AM	I've never liked this one. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cd_gallery/82293.jpg
Hayabusa 01-31-05, 10:19 AM	I've never liked this one. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cd_gallery/82293.jpg It would be better if the whole thing was more realistically colored. Looks like a cartoon to me. Otherwise, it's a good illustration.
Wharin 01-31-05, 10:59 AM	Umm, hmm, ok. If she is in any way handicapped I rescind all my opinion and comments about her works (eg. she paints with her feet or mouth or something). Or she is under the age of 10. I have never seen a RGM picture I liked. The colours...Oh God, the colours...I now have nightmares in pastels. Bah! Some people just can't stand a good watercolour, nor appreciate how hard it is as a medium. Not as nearly as forgiving as say Acyrlic or Oil. Personally I, 99% of time, like her work. She has a totally classic style. Meh... some people just dont get it. The problem with her style, however, is that it doesnt mesh well with some of the other artists who use much bolder colours. And some books simply don't match her style. Also, most the pictures shes done for DnD werent as nearly as ambitious as the work shes done for Magic:TG. Some of the work there is just simply gorgeous. If like, she were given the task of doing like 80% of the artwork for BoED (i think she did only like a picture or two), or Complete Divine, i think the books would have been better recieved (at least in the art department). Maybe some time down the road there will be book that focuses on the Romantic ages (ala Arthur), or some other classy setting that would better suit her style.
Seeker95 01-31-05, 11:25 AM	The Lady of Stairs is gets my vote. I find that most of the submissions for this thread are based on style, not specific piece of art. If you don't like a style, then I feel you have no right to submit an example of it for "worst picture". It's like asking a 1980s minister for a review of D&D. Or asking Roger Ebert to review a vampire movie. He doesn't like vampire movies, so how can he offer a valid review? A bad picture is bad not because of the style the artist uses, but (like with the Lady of Stairs) because perspective is inconsistent, imagery fails to fit intent, or an image is too busy to convey the content purpose.
Norade 01-31-05, 11:47 AM	I agree with the pony on the Eberron thing. I liked a lot of the art in that book.
Escef 01-31-05, 11:50 AM	I agree with the *** pony on the Eberron thing. I liked a lot of the art in that book. I suggest you edit that, people round abouts here don't like the whole using that word in a derogatory fashion.
Dragon Rider 01-31-05, 01:52 PM	This was in the image archive for Complete Warrior, no wonder it didn't make it into the book... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75438.jpg
hiryuu 01-31-05, 02:05 PM	I dunno, that's not too bad. The monk's serene facial expression and the orc's "Crikey! Me arm!" facial expression go well together, and of course that's an unnatural curve in his arm, it's broken, now.
e-z0r 01-31-05, 02:22 PM	Ohyeah - the tiefling in the MM 3.5 - OH GOD. Anybgody who draws breastplates like that needs a good kicking >_____<;;;; What? The Tiefling is wearing leather armor, and it's not that bad of a picture. You must mean the Half-Fiend, with the spiked boobs? It's pretty craptacular. And about RGM and the watercolour.. Well, you CAN make excellent pieces of art with watercolour. However, the two ones posted on this thread by this RGM are terrible and should not have made it into the finished product. I find the treasure of watercolour is the multitude of variations in colour that can be achieved - perfect for painting nature or artistic pieces, and I don't like seeing watercolour used like this -- Like colouring of drawings. It just isn't quite fit for the job. EDIT: After looking at BoED and noticing some of the RGM works there, I felt I needed to give credit to some of them. For example, the use of colour in the Celestial Mystic's robe is really nice. It just shows the point of how great some of the tonal qualities watercolour has, and the depth it can create. I have to say, though, I don't like RGM's emissary of barathiel, particularly because of the scalemail colouring. Nor do I like the troubadour of stars, nor the Coure, but the Quesar has very nice colouring and is a beautiful illustration.
Kiirnodel 01-31-05, 02:38 PM	I'm an artist!!! (Check the sig! I've got two drawings of Ryld as well) The Dark Slayer is quite good, jsut that crossbow...err...you know... nm...bad crossbow! bad crossbow! Rebecca Guay's art is often quite serene in nature everyone epecting action should look at the image in itself not any action... though I do beleive she's done some action things, her best art was in MtG. Ron Spencer's art in BoED? It's good, he's got excellent faces, proportion and stylized wise -ish...wordy word...s..but I think he doesn't make anything look exalted. I never liked the PHB Monk or Dwarf Samuraii (I was really hoping to see a dwarf ninja in CV...HAHAHAHAHA That would have been awesome...hahaaha) Those are personal preference, I do not think the Dark Slayer should have gotten in with the X-bow like that...that's all I think thats wrong with it. I also never criticize an artist unless I can do better myself. I can do a better crossbow than that :P Other than that... I'm not sure that I like the gem dragons either.
e-z0r 01-31-05, 02:57 PM	I don't think there's any reason to hold back criticism because you can't do better yourself. It's not like everyone thinks you mean you're better when you say you don't like something. Everyone reading a piece of critique should understand that most of all the critique comes from a framework where the person criticising doesn't know how to make a better work themselves (unless something is really terrible). EDIT: Unrelatedly, as response to someone saying Ron Spencer's work in BoED sucks, I'd like to say I disagree. I quite like them. Except the face on the Anointed Knight.
Escef 01-31-05, 03:03 PM	I don't think there's any reason to hold back criticism because you can't do better yourself. It's not like everyone thinks you mean you're better when you say you don't like something. Everyone reading a piece of critique should understand that most of all the critique comes from a framework where the person criticising doesn't know how to make a better work themselves (unless something is really terrible). Indeed, otherwise every movie reviewer would be an actor/director/writer/composer. When you ask a friend if a movie was good do you make sure he has a background in cinema?
Sulaco 01-31-05, 03:05 PM	I can't pin it down to one illo cos everything by this guys (or actually "these guys") is total crap. New-skool: Dennis Crabapple-McLain (or whatever the hell his name is). Old-Skool: Erol Otus. :yuck: His so-called "art" literally makes my nauseated.
Sulaco 01-31-05, 03:12 PM	Clearly it is a man with boobies. Or a very ugly woman. Okay, I'm confused. Are you still talking about Ember or are you now discussing Grace Jones? ;)
Kiirnodel 01-31-05, 03:13 PM	Yes, I agree with you about critics and such... but you didn't attempt to do better... we just have to deal with the art in itself... I guess I kind of meant don't insult the artist...critique the art. Who's this Erol Otus you speak of? (check sig for some good art :embarrass )
Kiirnodel 01-31-05, 03:14 PM	Okay, I'm confused. Are you still talking about Ember or are you now discussing Grace Jones? ;) Haha, good one I must admit. Where was that shot taken from anyway?
Sulaco 01-31-05, 03:18 PM	Sorry, but if you read the card, you officially can't rag on Lady Guay. So there is actually a history of people hating on this woman's art? So much so that they actually made a MtG card parodying it? How very odd. From what of have seen of her stuff it is quite nice (and she herself is quite dishy, though that has no bearing on her skill). Her style is very evocative of late 19th/early 20th century illustration, particulalry the art nouveau style (though I'll grant that the dwarf pic in this thread is total ass - what the hell is up with that crossbow?) There are many, many ostensibly "professional" illustrators far more deserving of scorn and derision that Rebecca Guay.
Thuragrun 01-31-05, 03:21 PM	Haha, good one I must admit. Where was that shot taken from anyway? Conan the Destroyer. The movie was as bad as Grace Jones is ugly. I had nightmares about her after seeing that movie the first time, no kidding.
Sulaco 01-31-05, 03:33 PM	Who's this Erol Otus you speak of? Erol Otus is the indidividual responsible for such aesthiteic crimes against humanity as these : http://minipainting-guild.net/eo/devilspider.jpg http://minipainting-guild.net/eo/Eye%20thing.jpg http://minipainting-guild.net/eo/deepcreature.jpg http://www.fierydragon.com/Pix/DBPix/10.jpg His work is the illustrative equivalent of a bowel exam: painful and stinks of :censored:. In spite of the fact his work is possibly the worst ever to earn their creator a paycheque, there are some fanatcial Otus fanboys out there (and I imagine that a few of them will be piping up very soon to cast aspersions on my artistic taste, mental state, and parentage).
Escef 01-31-05, 03:36 PM	So there is actually a history of people hating on this woman's art? So much so that they actually made a MtG card parodying it? How very odd. From what of have seen of her stuff it is quite nice (and she herself is quite dishy, though that has no bearing on her skill). Her style is very evocative of late 19th/early 20th century illustration, particulalry the art nouveau style (though I'll grant that the dwarf pic in this thread is total ass - what the hell is up with that crossbow?) There are many, many ostensibly "professional" illustrators far more deserving of scorn and derision that Rebecca Guay. Actually, there is no great history of people hating RG's work. Quite the opposite, in fact. After WotC stopped using her to illustrate Magic cards her fans flooded WotC with mail demanding her return to cardstock. She's actually from the westrn part of my state, though I never met her til GenCon this past summer (and she is a good looking woman, a shame that she's married ;) ). To be honest, I don't think the dwarf is very good either, making it the first piece of her work I've ever been disappointed with.
e-z0r 01-31-05, 03:38 PM	Okay, I'm confused. Are you still talking about Ember or are you now discussing Grace Jones? ;) The both of them. I think I'm beginning to see where the inspiration for Ember came from, as well. Damn.
Reinforcements 01-31-05, 04:56 PM	Well, at least we have yet to hear people piping up with the, "Wayne Reynolds sucks because sometimes feet he draws don't look quite right!" I'd have to agree that that messed up tiefling (woman on stairs, I think I remeber her being a tiefling) is the worst recent artwork. Erol Otus. Wow. And I like the Eberron chapter starters, so nyeh.
Fox Lee 01-31-05, 05:15 PM	Frazer Irving? I quite like the chapter starters he did. You're welcome to them. Me, I would have at least appreciated irises/pupils. I am all for a bit of stylisation here and there, but I also believe art should be aesthetically pleasing, which I do not find his to be. YMMV.
Fox Lee 01-31-05, 05:20 PM	What? The Tiefling is wearing leather armor, and it's not that bad of a picture. You must mean the Half-Fiend, with the spiked boobs? It's pretty craptacular. Ah, yes. My bad.
gfunk6266 01-31-05, 05:35 PM	This was in the image archive for Complete Warrior, no wonder it didn't make it into the book... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75438.jpg Yeah, the monk probably didn't have enough cleavage showing. ;)
Darth K'Trava 01-31-05, 07:20 PM	EDIT: Unrelatedly, as response to someone saying Ron Spencer's work in BoED sucks, I'd like to say I disagree. I quite like them. Except the face on the Anointed Knight. I like his work too. I haven't seen a bad pic of Ron's that I didn't like. Crabapple is amongst the worst regarding drawing people. He's fine for simple stuff like holy symbols and such. But people, heck no. The Baxa pic above isn't too bad. It could've been done better but it's got great action you don't normally see in the books these days.
Kiirnodel 01-31-05, 08:05 PM	Erol Otus is the indidividual responsible for such aesthiteic crimes against humanity as these : His work is the illustrative equivalent of a bowel exam: painful and stinks of :censored:. This is. in spte of the fact his work is possibly the worst ever to earn their creator a paycheque, there sre some fanatcial Orus fanboys out there (and I imagine that a few of them will be piping up very soon to cast aspersions on my artistic taste, mental state, and parentage). Sulaco...you are absolutely correct...those blow. Yeah...thank you for showing me those wonderful pieces of art.
Skyblade 01-31-05, 08:55 PM	Bah! Some people just can't stand a good watercolour, nor appreciate how hard it is as a medium. Not as nearly as forgiving as say Acyrlic or Oil. Personally I, 99% of time, like her work. She has a totally classic style. Meh... some people just dont get it. The problem with her style, however, is that it doesnt mesh well with some of the other artists who use much bolder colours. And some books simply don't match her style. Also, most the pictures shes done for DnD werent as nearly as ambitious as the work shes done for Magic:TG. Some of the work there is just simply gorgeous. If like, she were given the task of doing like 80% of the artwork for BoED (i think she did only like a picture or two), or Complete Divine, i think the books would have been better recieved (at least in the art department). Maybe some time down the road there will be book that focuses on the Romantic ages (ala Arthur), or some other classy setting that would better suit her style. Personally, I'll have to agree with the two above about RGM's work... and it's not just about the color she uses. I've seen good watercolor paintings, and her paintings were definitely not up to the potential of the medium. Then there's the line art - which were way too thick, like they were drawn with an ultra-dull pencil. Now, I haven't seen any of her other work - but I'll just say that, from what I've seen her draw for Complete Warrior, I was not the least impressed. And I'm quite a big watercolor fan. There are lots of crappy stuff to be found in the "Complete" series. Funny, I was rather fond of D&D art prior to seeing Complete Warrior... (yeah.. that dwarven samurai was like a smack to the face to me..)
crustaceomutoid 01-31-05, 09:12 PM	Ok... I wasn't expecting such a population of faithful for this Rebecca artist. So I decided to go to her site and educate myself about her. Hmm... let's see... a full fledged degree from Pratt University of New York in Illustration... check. Illustrated for DC Comics, Magic cards and a slew of childrens books... check. This artist does have a nice resume. And after viewing some of her work on her site such as the image below feel she does appear competent to paint some very nice impressionistic images. However, her works found in this thread (the dwarf chick and the raccoon) are well below grade for water colors or any other medium for that matter, and why she would want them even published when she is clearly capable of better is beyond me. Quality control at Wizards wasn't doing their job imho. http://www.rebeccaguay.com/i/thumbs/osaka_angel_lg.jpg
Woas 01-31-05, 09:44 PM	Seriously, am I the only Crabapple fan? I love his work. As for worst Artwork, I would like to offer these images: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG149.jpg Please notice the halflings right arm. It looks like he has 2 elbow joints. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/UnA_Gallery/79145.jpg Please notice the dwarven cleric of Pelor's sword in the upperleft corner. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/UnA_Gallery/79165.jpg ..yeah.
Aubri 01-31-05, 11:06 PM	Personally, I think the worst piece is the illustration for the Tempest PrC in Masters of the Wild... it's like the artist took a pen and just kinda scribbled everything in... and what the heck is that ... trog?... doing with that sword? The motion lines suggest he's waving it rapidly up and down. :uh-huh: Although yes, the baby-armed Lady of the Stairs is pretty darn freaky... worse, in a way, because you know the artist could have done better.
Scarlet Knight 01-31-05, 11:23 PM	I have to defend Erol Otus. Without him, classic D&D just wouldn't have been the same. To me, his artwork is more "D&D" than anyone else's could ever be. He was illustrating D&D books way back when, and whenever I see something by him it instantly reminds me of Classic Dungeons & Dragons. Most other TSR and WotC artists just make me think "fantasy." Otus's art was weird and different, and I can see why a lot of people wouldn't like it, but I think that that strange sort of artwork is fitting for the D&D game. It's more imaginative instead of realistic, and I think it's very cool looking.
Wharin 02-01-05, 12:02 AM	I have to defend Erol Otus. Without him, classic D&D just wouldn't have been the same. To me, his artwork is more "D&D" than anyone else's could ever be. He was illustrating D&D books way back when, and whenever I see something by him it instantly reminds me of Classic Dungeons & Dragons. Most other TSR and WotC artists just make me think "fantasy." Otus's art was weird and different, and I can see why a lot of people wouldn't like it, but I think that that strange sort of artwork is fitting for the D&D game. It's more imaginative instead of realistic, and I think it's very cool looking. As the game was still budding (read: poor), I am sure he worked for almost literal peanuts. Also the quality of artists has gone up exponentially over the years. In all forms of media, the art quality given and demanded has strengthened. This is even prevalent in comic books. Take JRJR (did alot of X-Men comics), even his own *personal* style, imho, has improved since the 80's. Same is true with Magic: TG. While i used to think that being better than Douglas Shuler was impossible, so many new artists are cropping up and pushing out such good quality, that looking at Shuler work just isnt as awe-inspiring as it used to be. That said, there will always be art that we dont care for. I personally dont really care for any of the chapter intro art, save for the PHB.
Callahan 02-01-05, 12:17 AM	AD&D's Invisible Stalker... need I say more? They didn't.
edgelett 02-01-05, 01:25 AM	I'd have to second that horrible tiefling-thing Callahan posted... Another set of bad ones, though, is the gem dragons from the MM2, like this Amethyst Dragon: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_36.jpg LMAO - that looks like something from The Phantom Tollbooth!!!
Asmodeous 02-01-05, 02:19 AM	hard for me to say what the worst artwork in any official book is as far as myself and friends go. But after some thought, here are the one I dislike the most; Book = all. page = all. Version. = v2.0 - v3.5. Artist? = All. About the only exception is the picture of the warlock with the rod in complete arcanne even though the class itself might suck, but at least the artwork is decent. It was only last night we where flicking thru complete adventurer and simply laughing at how stupid the artwork is. Mind you, in stark contrast, the eberron book art work is simply excellent. What the heck happened there wizards? They actually paid for artwork for once??
Kiirnodel 02-01-05, 02:34 AM	hard for me to say what the worst artwork in any official book is as far as myself and friends go. But after some thought, here are the one I dislike the most; Book = all. page = all. Version. = v2.0 - v3.5. Artist? = All. About the only exception is the picture of the warlock with the rod in complete arcanne even though the class itself might suck, but at least the artwork is decent. It was only last night we where flicking thru complete adventurer and simply laughing at how stupid the artwork is. Mind you, in stark contrast, the eberron book art work is simply excellent. What the heck happened there wizards? They actually paid for artwork for once?? That was friggin harsh... oh well everything is subjective. I do agree that Eberron has great art, but so do all of the other books.
Zardnaar 02-01-05, 04:41 AM	AD&D's Invisible Stalker... need I say more? They didn't. They even had credits for that in the front of the book.
Sulaco 02-01-05, 10:32 AM	Seriously, am I the only Crabapple fan? Quite possibly. His drek reminds me of the scribbles of a 5th grader. I know that every artist has their own style, and I am all for stylization, but neither of these explains his stuff. It is just weak, amateurish, and utterly lacking in both talent and skill. I could do better and I consider my illustration skills to be pretty weak.
Sulaco 02-01-05, 10:40 AM	Without him, classic D&D just wouldn't have been the same. To me, his artwork is more "D&D" than anyone else's could ever be. You say that like it's a good thing. If his "art" was D&D than it could help explain why D&D was so marginalized for so many years. If I'd simply come across D&D in a shop (rather then being introudced to it by a friend) and seen that Otus cover I certainly would not have bought the game. The old adage "You cannot judge a book by its cover" is false. The entire purpose of a cover is to get the consumer to judge the book and thence to buy it. Otus's work is so dreadful, so astoundingly, gut-wrenchingly, eye-bleedingly bad that it would not in the least surprise me to learn that his cover of the D&D boxed set convinced many a young soul to stay away from the game. On the aesthetic scale Otus' work fits somewhere between those apes that figerpaint and those apes that fling their own crap at the wall, and it definitely skews more towards the latter.
Ogre4Hire 02-01-05, 12:11 PM	Has anyone seen the cover art for Lords of Madness yet? It looks like it was done with a friggin crayon!
Tweedledope 02-01-05, 12:44 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ros_gallery/83306.jpg How can we forget? I also have a STRONG dislike for any artwork by Thomas M Baxa such as these wonders. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84717.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84719.jpg I just don't like his coloring techniques.
The White Sorcerer 02-01-05, 02:30 PM	Seriously, am I the only Crabapple fan? Nope. See the bottom line of my sig. :D
Woas 02-01-05, 03:17 PM	I could do better and I consider my illustration skills to be pretty weak. If you say so... I've never seen your work so I can't really compare. I don't understand how 'lines' are bad. They are the building blocks of art. And has anyone here linked one of his images up as being one of the worst illustrated? All of his work has great perspective and proportions. His anatomy work of the human and non-human forms is equally as good. Everyone simply says "he's bad cause I said so and I'm the boss apple-sauce!" Tell me whats wrong with his pictures to make them the worst illustrations in WotC Books. Now... if you don't like his STYLE, well, then I can't help you with that.
Callahan 02-01-05, 03:30 PM	If you say so... I've never seen your work so I can't really compare. I don't understand how 'lines' are bad. They are the building blocks of art. And has anyone here linked one of his images up as being one of the worst illustrated? All of his work has great perspective and proportions. His anatomy work of the human and non-human forms is equally as good. Everyone simply says "he's bad cause I said so and I'm the boss apple-sauce!" Tell me whats wrong with his pictures to make them the worst illustrations in WotC Books. Now... if you don't like his STYLE, well, then I can't help you with that. Bad Crabapple art would require it's own thread.
Aubri 02-01-05, 03:32 PM	(Post removed to avoid troll-feeding)
Sulaco 02-01-05, 03:44 PM	If you say so... I've never seen your work so I can't really compare. I don't understand how 'lines' are bad. They are the building blocks of art. And has anyone here linked one of his images up as being one of the worst illustrated? All of his work has great perspective and proportions. His anatomy work of the human and non-human forms is equally as good. Everyone simply says "he's bad cause I said so and I'm the boss apple-sauce!" Tell me whats wrong with his pictures to make them the worst illustrations in WotC Books. Now... if you don't like his STYLE, well, then I can't help you with that. To start with I don't like his style, but that is neither here nor there. Stylisitc preference is entirely a matter of personal taste and I am mature enough not to automatically assume anything of a style I do not like is "bad" cos of it However, Crabapple's working is lacking any sense of colour or aesthetics and is totally devoid of prefessional "polish". I have seen better "art" in the margins of an 11-year-old's math notebook. I honestly cannot begin to fathom how he manages to get paid for this.
Sulaco 02-01-05, 03:51 PM	(Post removed to avoid troll-feeding) Err, what troll? And it does seem a bit odd that you "removed" a post yet there was no edit tag. Seems to me that in this case your post is something of a troll.
Callahan 02-01-05, 03:58 PM	here's some of my favorite "worst art" from the 3ed rip off book "Masters of the Wild" : http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/DanHibiki/1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/DanHibiki/2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/DanHibiki/3.jpg
Dragon Rider 02-01-05, 04:00 PM	Yes, it was a troll, I get instant email notification if someone replies to a thread that I have responded too. But I will not post what it said to protect the privacy of the poster
Mootilator 02-01-05, 04:09 PM	This one by Erol Otus cracks me up: http://minipainting-guild.net/eo/Netherdeep_Cover_LowRez.jpg
Zagan 02-01-05, 04:14 PM	i like it ... it shows more realism in D&D :D
Dragon Rider 02-01-05, 04:25 PM	Tis a little gory, no? EDIT: But they (dwarves? Gnomes?) are getting the snot beat out of them. EDIT2: Those monster look like something out of Where the Wild Things Are.
Mootilator 02-01-05, 04:34 PM	Yeah...that's typical work for the Hackmaster RPG books. Over the top, old-school, 1st edition, killin' for fun violence.
ssvegeta555 02-01-05, 05:11 PM	Has anyone seen the cover art for Lords of Madness yet? It looks like it was done with a friggin crayon! Have you checked out the new cover (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/177410000) for the book. Much better IMO.
Evil Wizard 02-01-05, 05:37 PM	Oh wow, Erol Otis. That brings back memories, going through my dad's old 1e stuff as a kid. In all fairness, you're posting images that he made 20 years ago, though the comments here suggest he hasn't improved any. He's technically skilled, but he really doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of making an image pleasing to the eye, does he? What books has he illustrated recently? I'll second Masters of the Wild. My God that book has some awful illustrations. Although it's oddly appropriate that one of the worst pictures from the book, that bottom left one, depicts one of the stupidest PrCs from the book (the Exotic Weapon master, which was nothing like the new, less sucky version in Complete Warrior). It even depicts the dire flail for maximum suckage. In 2nd edition, there was a book called the Complete Elves Handbook. I don't have it to scan for you, but that book also had some truly ugly illustrations of elves. Even though elves have always been described as being slimmer with fair features, these elves all looked like dumpy humans with pointy ears. There have been many other images that made me wince, like the Multishot illustration in the Epic Level Handbook (I dislike that artist in general, although he's gotten better since then), or the cover art for Complete Warrior, but I'd have to go through what I have to refresh my memory of them all.
Darth K'Trava 02-01-05, 05:49 PM	I also have a STRONG dislike for any artwork by Thomas M Baxa such as these wonders. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84717.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84719.jpg I just don't like his coloring techniques. I think they're pretty cool. He seems to do better with pose-type pics than action pics.
Sulaco 02-01-05, 05:53 PM	Those monster look like something out of Where the Wild Things Are. Believe it or not, those monsters are supposed to be bugbears.
Darth K'Trava 02-01-05, 05:54 PM	This one by Erol Otus cracks me up: http://minipainting-guild.net/eo/Netherdeep_Cover_LowRez.jpg Goes to show his favorite book was "Where The Wild Things Are".... ;) Edit: I see someone beat me to it.... :D
Darth K'Trava 02-01-05, 05:56 PM	Have you checked out the new cover (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/177410000) for the book. Much better IMO. Not bad. What was the original cover art?
Azual 02-01-05, 06:19 PM	I think they're pretty cool. He seems to do better with pose-type pics than action pics. um... dude? The first has a staff about... nine NO WAIT ten times the size of his body, where did that dude get a skull that big? The face... UGHHHH! then the other one, with the necromancer who is i guess trying to listen to his friend corpsey is trying to say... heres a KOOL necro, dude NECRO (http://www.blizzard.com/diablo2/charclass/necromancer.shtml)
Sulaco 02-01-05, 06:54 PM	Book = all. page = all. Version. = v2.0 - v3.5. Artist? = All So basically "old=good, new=bad, change=fear, blah blah blah..."
Callahan 02-01-05, 07:06 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cx_gallery/86357.jpg
Mootilator 02-01-05, 07:17 PM	Haw haw! That ones guys face is being driven into his stomach! Good stuff, good stuff. But then again, I still enjoy watching Friday the 13th and chuckling at how creative Jason is. ;) But really, though, the bugbears remind me of how monsters have changed over the years. Bugbears always had big 'ol square looking heads, Orcs essentially had pig faces and bullywugs...err, are they still around in any of the new monster books? Oh...and beholders used to look damn silly with their thin eyestalks and goofy grins. Checkit out... http://www.medeasin.com/journal/02/0212/beholder.jpg
Darth K'Trava 02-01-05, 07:46 PM	um... dude? The first has a staff about... nine NO WAIT ten times the size of his body, where did that dude get a skull that big? The face... UGHHHH! then the other one, with the necromancer who is i guess trying to listen to his friend corpsey is trying to say... heres a KOOL necro, dude NECRO (http://www.blizzard.com/diablo2/charclass/necromancer.shtml) #1: NOT a "dude" #2: Probably from some other creature? Along with the spine staff. #3: Nothing wrong with that if you're into necromancy...... It's all in personal taste. I happen to like alot of stuff people shudder over, it seems...
St. Maelstrom 02-01-05, 07:49 PM	http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/DanHibiki/conandestroyer3.jpg Think Grace Jones... or don't. Best that you don't. Laughing... Gasping... (Thud) (Reaches for chair from the floor) Laughing... Weeping... (Abs starting to burn) Laughing... Thank you. You made my night.
Evadimus 02-01-05, 08:40 PM	http://wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85476.jpg Guh.
Darth K'Trava 02-01-05, 08:55 PM	They should call that a Staff of :censored: Slapping"...... 'cause that's what it looks like.... :D
Evadimus 02-01-05, 08:56 PM	I've just been wondering this: despite him being an exceptional artist (hey, I think he's great!) WotC seems to be having a love affair with Wayne Reynolds. There's no escaping his art sometimes with these new books! I was perusing the Eberron book recently and every other pic (including the cover, mind you) was his stuff! I like the bad art now and again (although, Moore's stuff kills me). It makes the good stuff look that much better.
Evadimus 02-01-05, 08:59 PM	They should call that a Staff of :censored: Slapping"...... 'cause that's what it looks like.... :D The first time I saw the pic, I couldn't tell what the hell was going on. I thought the evil... umm... necro... man... cer? *ahem* I thought that the EVIL THING with the staff was getting ready to smack the floating dwarf that was coming at him.
Darth K'Trava 02-01-05, 09:08 PM	He looks wrong to be floating towards the evil guy..... but he does look like someone's who'd just been whocked really good.
diaboli 02-01-05, 09:32 PM	I too didn't realize what was happening in that image. At first glance I though the dwarf was jumping at the staff wielder. The only sense of movement you get from the dwarf is from the white "streamers", which makes you realize that the dwarf has been batted. For me the problem with the lack of visual motion comes from a discrepancy in the physics of the action trying to be portrayed. From the position of the dwarf's arms, you get the feeling that the blow finished in the upper body as it launched him back. If so, then the upper half of the body should have a pronounced arc, with potnentially with an agonized facial shot, and the position of the arms could remain close to the position they are currently in. However, the axe would need be be both repositioned and the angle modified. The position and movement of the axe just doesn't work for me as currently shown, if anything it should be in front of the dwarf. That said, it does provide a point of reference for the movement of the piece, its only saving grace. Now if the blow finished more to the mid-section, which the current image somewhat implies, then the arms need to be extended more to emphasize that and the axe should be in front of the body. A third fix would be to slightly twist/rotate the angle of the dwarf, extend the right arm, change the angle of flight of the axe a bit, and then the motion of the staff wielder fits more closely to the sense of movement depicted. just my .02.
crustaceomutoid 02-01-05, 11:15 PM	Originally Posted by Sulaco You say that like it's a good thing. If his "art" was D&D than it could help explain why D&D was so marginalized for so many years. If I'd simply come across D&D in a shop (rather then being introudced to it by a friend) and seen that Otus cover I certainly would not have bought the game. The old adage "You cannot judge a book by its cover" is false. The entire purpose of a cover is to get the consumer to judge the book and thence to buy it. Otus's work is so dreadful, so astoundingly, gut-wrenchingly, eye-bleedingly bad that it would not in the least surprise me to learn that his cover of the D&D boxed set convinced many a young soul to stay away from the game. On the aesthetic scale Otus' work fits somewhere between those apes that figerpaint and those apes that fling their own crap at the wall, and it definitely skews more towards the latter. I can't agree enough with this... *holds up a beer* Cheers! On a side note, some of the art that has shown up on this post I started should be nuked from orbit... it's the only way to be sure! :smirk:
ssvegeta555 02-02-05, 12:07 AM	Not bad. What was the original cover art? The original cover is located here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786936576/qid=1107320569/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-8410678-0220014?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
Zom 02-02-05, 12:23 AM	The original cover is located here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786936576/qid=1107320569/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-8410678-0220014?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) Actually, I sort of dig that cover....
Glanoric 02-02-05, 12:44 AM	http://www.3dnews.ru/documents/3708/corellian.jpg That's some fancy rainbow eyeliner you got there, Corellon Larethian.
Aubri 02-02-05, 12:54 AM	Err, what troll? And it does seem a bit odd that you "removed" a post yet there was no edit tag. Seems to me that in this case your post is something of a troll. Asmodeous, above... and I don't know why there's no edit tag. If I could delete my own posts, I'd do so. I changed my mind about five seconds after hitting 'post'. :rolleyes:
Escef 02-02-05, 04:51 AM	Asmodeous, above... and I don't know why there's no edit tag. If I could delete my own posts, I'd do so. I changed my mind about five seconds after hitting 'post'. :rolleyes: If you edit your post within... I think it's somewhere between two to five minutes... after posting the system doesn't bother noteing that it was edited.
MadBlue 02-02-05, 05:07 AM	Bad Crabapple art would require it's own thread.His style reminds me of Timothy Truman's artwork, particularly his illustrations in Isle of Dread (http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/ModPages/ModScans/X1red.html). Most of Truman's monsters have a rubbery look similar to Crabapple's. Err, monsters that is, not Crabapple, himself. :D MadBlue
Black Kitten 02-02-05, 05:13 AM	The Dark Hunter image and the Battlemorph image and the image called 'Careful Negotiations' image from the Complete Warrior were my biggest disappointment of a good book. Als the image of the Half-Elf/Half-Drow and the Goblinoids from Races of Faerun were things that made me half-regret buying it (though also the text of this book makes it worth it)
Kiirnodel 02-02-05, 07:50 AM	[IMG]*snip* That's some fancy rainbow eyeliner you got there, Corellon Larethian. RAR! I hate that illustration of Corellon! That definitely goes up with my least favorite ones. Aye... maybe its not so bad as much as it's not the Corellon I imagined.
A Chosen of Mystra 02-02-05, 08:37 AM	THIS! http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75403.jpg Regards -Chosen
Kiirnodel 02-02-05, 10:58 AM	We already covered that picture, its not that bad, IMO. But not good. That crossbow blows...I must agree.
Sulaco 02-02-05, 11:12 AM	The original cover is located here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786936576/qid=1107320569/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-8410678-0220014?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) Ughh! ANyone know who was responsible for that attack on the eyes?
Evadimus 02-02-05, 11:16 AM	RAR! I hate that illustration of Corellon! That definitely goes up with my least favorite ones. Aye... maybe its not so bad as much as it's not the Corellon I imagined. Well, Corellon is supposed to look androgynous... and I can't think of a better pic to express this than the one in Dieties & Demigods no matter how horribly ugly it is.
Sulaco 02-02-05, 11:18 AM	His style reminds me of Timothy Truman's artwork, particularly his illustrations in Isle of Dread (http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/ModPages/ModScans/X1red.html). Most of Truman's monsters have a rubbery look similar to Crabapple's. I don't see it at all. I am not a big Truman fan but he had control over his art. It is often finely detailed. Crabapple's stuff looks like it was drawn by someone with Parkinson's disease. There is no control and no fine-detail. His linework is just awful.
Kiirnodel 02-02-05, 11:19 AM	Well, Corellon is supposed to look androgynous... and I can't think of a better pic to express this than the one in Dieties & Demigods no matter how horribly ugly it is. Um... there is a difference between androgenous and cheap chicago prostitute
Sulaco 02-02-05, 11:21 AM	Well, Corellon is supposed to look androgynous... and I can't think of a better pic to express this than the one in Dieties & Demigods no matter how horribly ugly it is. But that doesn't look androgynous, it looks like a 13 year old girl. And an ugly one to boot.
Aubri 02-02-05, 11:42 AM	But that doesn't look androgynous, it looks like a 13 year old girl. And an ugly one to boot. I thought it reflected androgyny rather effectively.
Mercurius 02-02-05, 12:04 PM	Just about anything with Mialee in it, though it's not exactly the fault of the current artists that the original design apparently has a lower Charisma than the iconic dwarf. Particularly bad, however, is this (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85427.jpg) illustration, which makes her look even worse than in the PHB. She reminds me of Yubaba from Spirited Away. I don't really like Crabapple's work either, but there are a few of his pieces that I don't mind. Seeing that above spread of his, I actually do like the Foe Hunter and the... was it hexer or something? Both are very nice, IMHO, though the Foe Hunter one is dealing with a very strong level of angles in its stylization, I happen to like angles, and the pose is somewhat evocative to me. I can just see the victim suddenly finding himself with a rapier through his throat as he tries to gurgle out a last warning to compatriots. Odd that this thread has given me a new found appreciation for some of Crabapple's work.
Evil Wizard 02-02-05, 12:17 PM	It's only androgynous in that I can't decide if it's a cheap underage streetwalker or a boy trying to look like Boy George. Either way, neither image is really appropriate for the prime elven deity. I went through some of the image galleries so I could attach names to pictures, and I'm just not seeing what's so bad about Crabapple. His style is very comic-bookish, possibly more stylized than what most people would consider appropriate for a D&D book. But unskilled? No. He has an excellent grasp of line and form from what I've seen. You really will have to be more specific about what's wrong with his art to convince me. It's one thing to argue his style is all wrong for the genre, another to say he flat out is a wretched illustrator. Wayne Reynolds has a terrible case of Rob Liefield's Disease, but nobody takes him to task for it, even though I consider that far worse than anything Crabapple does.
The White Sorcerer 02-02-05, 12:24 PM	I was perusing the Eberron book recently and every other pic (including the cover, mind you) was [Wayne Reynolds's] stuff! Okay, that's pretty weird, considering that he hasn't done one single interior illustration for any Eberron book. Only the covers. And I liked the old Codex Anathema cover. The new Lords of Madness cover sucks! :mad:
Kiirnodel 02-02-05, 12:39 PM	Wayne Reynolds works are great! He's ot a great feel and I think the majority agree with me.. which doesn't mean people who like his works are wrong...just in the minority... which is ok! :) White Sorc - True... that's interesting.... we need more Wayne Reynolds in Ebby! I actually like Spencer, Lockwood and Guay... but they aren't too Eberronish... so Yeah... and then I found five dollars!
Tevish Szat 02-02-05, 02:26 PM	So there is actually a history of people hating on this woman's art? So much so that they actually made a MtG card parodying it? How very odd. From what of have seen of her stuff it is quite nice (and she herself is quite dishy, though that has no bearing on her skill). Her style is very evocative of late 19th/early 20th century illustration, particulalry the art nouveau style (though I'll grant that the dwarf pic in this thread is total ass - what the hell is up with that crossbow?) There are many, many ostensibly "professional" illustrators far more deserving of scorn and derision that Rebecca Guay. Actually, being on the M:tG side alot, i remember the incident that sparhed that card Wizards decided to drop Rebecca Guay as a M:tG artist. There was massive outcry. i believe, on the boards in a very short time, the thread reached ten pages of supporters for her art. I was one of them. In adition to the boards response, Wizards got hundreds of letters and e-mails, so much that they reversed their decision and brought back Rebecca Guay's art in M:tG. Her best work remains in Magic... She's responsible for a couple bad pieces in D&D art (Epic Assassin) but still far more good (From the same book, for which she did a lot of work: Epic Bard, Tumble skill, Szass Tam, Iyarcela, and the Simbul)
Callahan 02-02-05, 02:47 PM	His style reminds me of Timothy Truman's artwork, particularly his illustrations in Isle of Dread (http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/ModPages/ModScans/X1red.html). Most of Truman's monsters have a rubbery look similar to Crabapple's. Err, monsters that is, not Crabapple, himself. :D MadBlue you gotta put a warning lable on that. I nearly fell out of my seat.
Sulaco 02-02-05, 03:23 PM	I went through some of the image galleries so I could attach names to pictures, and I'm just not seeing what's so bad about Crabapple. His style is very comic-bookish, possibly more stylized than what most people would consider appropriate for a D&D book. But unskilled? No. He has an excellent grasp of line and form from what I've seen. You really will have to be more specific about what's wrong with his art to convince me. It's one thing to argue his style is all wrong for the genre, another to say he flat out is a wretched illustrator. I for one have no problem at all with sylization, and I am also not trying to "convince" you or anyone else of my way of thinking. However, everything you just listed as good about his "art" I would list as bad. He is unskilled and has no grasp of line and form (or anatomy, colour theory, or basic aesthetics). You are right though, those are two different things. However, since I am not claiming he has the "wrong style for the genre", I will stick to my original assertation and state flat-out that he is simply a wretched illustrator. Wayne Reynolds has a terrible case of Rob Liefield's Disease, but nobody takes him to task for it, even though I consider that far worse than anything Crabapple does. :shocked: Reynolds worse than Crabapple?!? Just as there are people who actually think that Britney Spears is better than The Beatles or Pink Floyd I guess that somone could actually prefer Crabapple to Reynolds though, as in the Spear ananlogy, or those people who actually want to become proctologists, I simply cannot even begin to fathom it. There really is no accounting for taste. To each their own. And pray what is "Rob Liefield's Disease"?
Darth K'Trava 02-02-05, 03:27 PM	Um... there is a difference between androgenous and cheap chicago prostitute :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Maybe that's the true profession of Corellon...... "cheap chicago prostitute"....
Darth K'Trava 02-02-05, 03:41 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmg35_gallery/DMG35_PG184_WEB.jpg This guy looks like he's stepped into a big steaming pile of dragon crap...
Sulaco 02-02-05, 03:47 PM	This guy looks like he's stepped into a big steaming pile of dragon crap... I believe that "guy" is a gal. IIRC she is a half-dragon of some sort, so perhaps she didn't step in a pile of dragon poo so much as create one, which could explain both the strange pose and the pained expression on her face. ;)
crustaceomutoid 02-02-05, 05:17 PM	:heehee You guys just made my whole day!
crustaceomutoid 02-02-05, 06:07 PM	Originally Posted by Tevish Szat Originally Posted by Sulaco So there is actually a history of people hating on this woman's art? So much so that they actually made a MtG card parodying it? How very odd. From what of have seen of her stuff it is quite nice (and she herself is quite dishy, though that has no bearing on her skill). Her style is very evocative of late 19th/early 20th century illustration, particulalry the art nouveau style (though I'll grant that the dwarf pic in this thread is total ass - what the hell is up with that crossbow?) There are many, many ostensibly "professional" illustrators far more deserving of scorn and derision that Rebecca Guay. Actually, being on the M:tG side alot, i remember the incident that sparhed that card Wizards decided to drop Rebecca Guay as a M:tG artist. There was massive outcry. i believe, on the boards in a very short time, the thread reached ten pages of supporters for her art. I was one of them. In adition to the boards response, Wizards got hundreds of letters and e-mails, so much that they reversed their decision and brought back Rebecca Guay's art in M:tG. Her best work remains in Magic... She's responsible for a couple bad pieces in D&D art (Epic Assassin) but still far more good (From the same book, for which she did a lot of work: Epic Bard, Tumble skill, Szass Tam, Iyarcela, and the Simbul) *Sits and stares at his screen absolutely dumbfounded* Do you have a link to show us that this actually happened? I only ask because she appears to be in the top 5 artists for this particular thread and only a handful of people seem to be defending her. It also does not explain the magic card giving Rebecca Guay "sanctuary"... that is something you would be granted if there was 10 pages of "massive outcry" against your artwork! Also your apparently aware of "many, many ostensibly "professional" illustrators far more deserving of scorn and derision". Please by all means, list them! :)
Kiirnodel 02-02-05, 07:25 PM	*Sits and stares at his screen absolutely dumbfounded* Do you have a link to show us that this actually happened? I only ask because she appears to be in the top 5 artists for this particular thread and only a handful of people seem to be defending her. It also does not explain the magic card giving Rebecca Guay "sanctuary"... that is something you would be granted if there was 10 pages of "massive outcry" against your artwork! Also your apparently aware of "many, many ostensibly "professional" illustrators far more deserving of scorn and derision". Please by all means, list them! :) Umm... I think Magicthegahtering.com had the article... actually he's perfectly right... that is EXACTLY what happened I emailed Guay and WotC personally... look at her other works dude...not the Dark Slayer :P
crustaceomutoid 02-02-05, 08:20 PM	Actually if you will read earlier in this thread you will see that I checked into what she is capable of doing and must say she is very capable of creating some eye pleasing artwork (see my post earlier containing the image of an angelesque impressionist image). However, the images found on page 1 of this thread (and many that are not) are ridiculously lame and bear little resemblance to an artist of her education. I also am still confused why Wizards felt the need to "protect" this artist by creating a MTG card that sanctifies her work when there apparently were/are so many people who love her work? :confused: Seems to me that would be something you would do if alot of people didn't like her work. Can someone explain this to me? Also is she the only one to get this endowment or are there other artists within Wizards protective veil?
Kiirnodel 02-02-05, 08:25 PM	That card is in unhinged, a joke set.
crustaceomutoid 02-02-05, 08:49 PM	Ok... still don't understand what happened to cause even a "joke" card to be created for her. What I have pictured in my head is this... Huge outcry against her... Wizards makes the decision to cease use of her works... Huge outcry for her... Wizards welcomes her back with a "joke" card parodying the whole event... Something like that must have happened as this article points to a drama of some sort... Unhinged FAQTIWDAWCC (Frequently Asked Questions That If We Didn't Answer Would Cause Chaos) by Mark Rosewater Monday, November 15, 2004 Persecute Artist See the Artist Matters rules above. Why can't I choose Rebecca Guay? Hasn't the poor woman been through enough? Found that here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/faq/unhinged Same guy wrote this: At the beginning of Unhinged design, I said to the team, “For the record, I don't know how we're going to do it yet, but we have to have a Rebecca Guay joke.” Then a month or so later, I was finding ways to make more “artist matter” cards when I stumbled across the idea of doing a Persecute for artists rather than color. The name Persecute Artist seemed perfect. Seconds later, I realized I had my card. So my question is simple at this point. Why?
obrysii 02-02-05, 09:28 PM	This might be one of the worst pieces of art I have ever seen: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75601.jpg ...what was he thinking?
thasis 02-02-05, 09:31 PM	I hate the Lizardfold picture beyond all belief. The spinoffs they've done I like (ex. Poisin Dusk Lizardfolk) but I hate the monster manaul one with a undying passion.
Fox Lee 02-02-05, 09:32 PM	Well, Corellon is supposed to look androgynous... and I can't think of a better pic to express this than the one in Dieties & Demigods no matter how horribly ugly it is. Considering how easy it is to make an andorgynous character stunning attractive (and at last check, Corellon is supposed to be attractive) I must disagree. Hell, anime style or not, I could draw a better Corellon than this godawful abberation. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that they didn't just make him another buff manly-man, but god. This was unecessary. They should talk to Yoshitaka Amano ^^ He did an uber-femme picture of Elric once that looked totally hot and not at all like an underaged prostitute...
thasis 02-02-05, 09:43 PM	Just thinking, there is one picture that I hate more then the Lizardfolk one. Only one but I hate it more then anything in the world. The goblin *shivers*. What happened to the classic green snot dripped small guy. Who ever thought goblins had hair? Gods, I say they should look at Magic the Gathering goblins. Thats what I use for goblin descriptions in my game. My players once looked at the picture of the goblin and they nearly threw up in disgust.
Dreamstryder 02-02-05, 10:46 PM	I don't find most of Crabapple McClain's work horrible, at least in Frostburn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040910a)... I've just realized that I was sometimes confusing his work with Dennis Cramer's, who does some work I do (Dragon 285, Halfling article I think) and some work I do not care for (the FF Selkie (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50098.jpg) I'd like to redo the head in front maybe...the expression she has irks me & I don't quite think that's what's intended; pretty colors tho'.)...Hey! They're both named Dennis! Is it the same person, changed names?...Wait, the Selkie's signature's different! Maybe I'm confusing 3 people now...
Callahan 02-02-05, 10:49 PM	They should talk to Yoshitaka Amano ^^ He did an uber-femme picture of Elric once that looked totally hot and not at all like an underaged prostitute... That's not fair, Amano has Divine ranks!
Kiirnodel 02-02-05, 10:54 PM	I'm so tempted to draw Corellon myself now... though it won't have any color...
crustaceomutoid 02-03-05, 12:04 AM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75620.jpg hmm... the caliber of this artwork does have a home... in childrens books. But in the world's premiere role playing books... I don't think so.
Escef 02-03-05, 08:20 AM	Ok... still don't understand what happened to cause even a "joke" card to be created for her. What I have pictured in my head is this... Huge outcry against her... Wizards makes the decision to cease use of her works... Huge outcry for her... Wizards welcomes her back with a "joke" card parodying the whole event... Ok, I honestly don't remember a "huge outcry" against her work. However, after WotC's art department chose to let her go, her fans raised all sorts of holy hell. The joke of Persecute Artist is that you can name any artist except R.G., which the flavor text (in italics near the bottom of the card) explains. Now, seing as how the joke had to be explained to you I don't expect you to find it funny. As for her work belonging in childrens' books, I understand that she has illustrated several. However, I see no reason why her work should be restricted to that audience, as many of her illustrations have a beauty about them that I might be tempted to call timeless. But, that is just my opinion.
Kiirnodel 02-03-05, 08:28 AM	THere wasn't a huge outcry against her, just an outcry to get her back. crustaceomutoid, You don't like her art, which is ok... I must admit that a couple of her works aren't optimal... look at MTG, she has several pristine works of art in there.
Mordmorgan the Mad 02-03-05, 09:33 AM	The original cover is located here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786936576/qid=1107320569/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-8410678-0220014?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) Does that beholder remind anyone of the Clown from Spawn?
MadBlue 02-03-05, 09:34 AM	But that doesn't look androgynous, it looks like a 13 year old girl. And an ugly one to boot.I thought it looked like Don Knotts in drag. MadBlue
MadBlue 02-03-05, 09:41 AM	.Hey! They're both named Dennis! Is it the same person, changed names?...Wait, the Selkie's signature's different! Maybe I'm confusing 3 people now...They're the same person. MadBlue
eggplantm 02-03-05, 11:27 AM	I cannot believe that no one has brought up the most phallic of all pics, the century worm from FF. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50103.jpg While the illustration is not bad (You guys are pretty harsh BTW), I don't know how this thing got past any editors.
Sulaco 02-03-05, 11:56 AM	Also your apparently aware of "many, many ostensibly "professional" illustrators far more deserving of scorn and derision". Please by all means, list them! :) Well, I've already lsited Erol Otus and Crapapple, and to this list I would add Jeff Laubenstein. That's off the top of my head. If you really want more I will put together a more comprehensive list when I have the time.
Sulaco 02-03-05, 12:07 PM	I don't find most of Crabapple McClain's work horrible, at least in Frostburn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040910a)... I've just realized that I was sometimes confusing his work with Dennis Cramer's, who does some work I do (Dragon 285, Halfling article I think) and some work I do not care for (the FF Selkie (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50098.jpg) I'd like to redo the head in front maybe...the expression she has irks me & I don't quite think that's what's intended; pretty colors tho'.)...Hey! They're both named Dennis! Is it the same person, changed names?...Wait, the Selkie's signature's different! Maybe I'm confusing 3 people now... They are the same person: http://www.sunnews.com/news/2004/part2/1014/WCOMIC.htm
crustaceomutoid 02-03-05, 12:10 PM	Originally Posted by Escef Ok, I honestly don't remember a "huge outcry" against her work. However, after WotC's art department chose to let her go, her fans raised all sorts of holy hell. The joke of Persecute Artist is that you can name any artist except R.G., which the flavor text (in italics near the bottom of the card) explains. Now, seing as how the joke had to be explained to you I don't expect you to find it funny. As for her work belonging in childrens' books, I understand that she has illustrated several. However, I see no reason why her work should be restricted to that audience, as many of her illustrations have a beauty about them that I might be tempted to call timeless. But, that is just my opinion. Just to you understand... I pretty much agree with everything you just said. As I've said before, she CAN produce some nice work. Also, so we all understand... all artists such as Rebecca Guay are freelance, not employees. I seriously doubt she was full-time with Wizards and therefore could not be "let go"... but Wizards Art Dept. could have decided that her submissions were no longer adequate for the D&D books as they do with hundreds, if not thousands of submissions. Why did they do this when she had such a history with the company? There had to be some reason for it IF... big if... there wasn't a push by readers/players to have her work no longer appear in the books. If that is the case, perhaps the Art Dept. simply felt her work was too inconsistent, unlike say a Todd Lockwood. As for the whole Persecute Artist Joke card... are you telling me the card was created for Wizards and not the players? Wizards created a card because they didn't want her works, then they were forced to bring her back because of the fans? In this view, I understand the card. Just seems to me there is more to this story than what has been said in this thread. Originally Posted by Kiirnodel THere wasn't a huge outcry against her, just an outcry to get her back. crustaceomutoid, You don't like her art, which is ok... I must admit that a couple of her works aren't optimal... look at MTG, she has several pristine works of art in there. Never said I don't like her work in a blanket statment. I've looked through the MTG galleries and actually was impressed with some of it. It's the stuff in this thread I find appalling. I suppose my disappointment should really be directed at Wizards Art Dept. 50% and Rebecca Guay 50%. Neither should have passed off final approval on them when they both knew that she could have done better. As for the children's book statement... I'm aware she has done many and it is my opinion that is where her work is best suited. Specifically, a story/genre about a young King Arthur or something similar. I would be interested to see what the demographics are concerning the age of D&D players... I'm willing to bet the majority is 18-40 yrs... of which simply expect better illustrations. Especially, when they see a much higher quality work on the opposing page.
Kiirnodel 02-03-05, 12:21 PM	As for the whole Persecute Artist Joke card... are you telling me the card was created for Wizards and not the players? Wizards created a card because they didn't want her works, then they were forced to bring her back because of the fans? In this view, I understand the card. The whole set is a joke... the whole set... none of the cards are tournament legal... I'm pretty sure its people who saw...the... news and read about Guay getting fired and rehired in the same week that got that joke. Maybe wizards didn't want her... we can't prove that... but it seems a bit explanatory.. who knows! Never said I don't like her work in a blanket statment. I've looked through the MTG galleries and actually was impressed with some of it. It's the stuff in this thread I find appalling The Dragonsong lyrsit looks nice... just not... you know... a D&D PC worthy... I agree with that... and the Dark Slayer could use some... a lot of improvement. Agreed. I suppose my disappointment should really be directed at Wizards Art Dept. 50% and Rebecca Guay 50%. Neither should have passed off final approval on them when they both knew that she could have done better. I agree with you. As for the children's book statement... I'm aware she has done many and it is my opinion that is where her work is best suited. Specifically, a story/genre about a young King Arthur or something similar. I'd read it ;) A book full of guay art! I would be interested to see what the demographics are concerning the age of D&D players... I'm willing to bet the majority is 18-40 yrs... of which simply expect better illustrations. Especially, when they see a much higher quality work on the opposing page. Yeah... That's why we have the astounding Todd Lockwood...and more... Glad to see we're on the same page! :)
hiryuu 02-03-05, 01:10 PM	They are the same person: http://www.sunnews.com/news/2004/part2/1014/WCOMIC.htm AHHHH! ....Thank you, Sulaco. Now I will be unable to sleep tonight, thanks to the fact that I now know he's teaching art classes, when he ought to be attending.
Sulaco 02-03-05, 05:40 PM	AHHHH! ....Thank you, Sulaco. Now I will be unable to sleep tonight, thanks to the fact that I now know he's teaching art classes, when he ought to be attending. Even more frightening is that he seems to have done some sort of "erotic" comic called Mara. That he could do that to the otherwise beautiful female form... :nonono:
Sulaco 02-03-05, 05:48 PM	I think I need to interject something here. As someone who works in the visual arts field I have a very strong poinion on art, design, and illustration. However, I also work as a writer and I know how tough it is to work your ass off on someothign and then have some anonymous internet mouthpiece tear your work a new stinkhole when it is published. So I want to make it perfectly clear that I am speaking solely about the work here and none of this should in any way be taken as an attack upon the artists, and also on the very off chance that any of those whose work I have dissed happens to read this I do apologize for the offence. I won't backpeddle and pretend to like it to appease anyone but bear in mind that, even if I am talking out of my ass, I am just one of those anonymous internet mouthpieces so don't take anything too personally. 'Sides, the way I look at it, if your work can get people this riled up you must be doing something right. Cheers! :D
Darth K'Trava 02-03-05, 07:02 PM	Can we PLEASE take the Rebecca Guay argument/discussion somewhere else?!?!?! It's detracting from the actual subject at hand.
Darth K'Trava 02-03-05, 07:04 PM	I believe that "guy" is a gal. IIRC she is a half-dragon of some sort, so perhaps she didn't step in a pile of dragon poo so much as create one, which could explain both the strange pose and the pained expression on her face. ;) :rofl: Hard to tell..... maybe "she's" Corellon's bastard kid or something..... two androgynious freaks in a pod.
Sulaco 02-03-05, 07:44 PM	http://www.3dnews.ru/documents/3708/corellian.jpg That's some fancy rainbow eyeliner you got there, Corellon Larethian. Okay folks, you decide... Androgynous... http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00001OH7T.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg or teenage hooker? http://www.americanphoto.co.jp/pages/celeb/F/Foster_Jodie/Previews/Plans-33209.jpg I don't know about anyone else but I am definitely leaning towards the latter.
crustaceomutoid 02-03-05, 08:48 PM	Originally Posted by Sulaco think I need to interject something here. As someone who works in the visual arts field I have a very strong poinion on art, design, and illustration. However, I also work as a writer and I know how tough it is to work your ass off on someothign and then have some anonymous internet mouthpiece tear your work a new stinkhole when it is published. So I want to make it perfectly clear that I am speaking solely about the work here and none of this should in any way be taken as an attack upon the artists, and also on the very off chance that any of those whose work I have dissed happens to read this I do apologize for the offence. I won't backpeddle and pretend to like it to appease anyone but bear in mind that, even if I am talking out of my ass, I am just one of those anonymous internet mouthpieces so don't take anything too personally. 'Sides, the way I look at it, if your work can get people this riled up you must be doing something right. Cheers! Just want to second this... couldn't have said it better. With one itsy bitsy exception. Last sentence, replace the word right with wrong. ;) And as for the whole Rebecca Guay thing, I will continue to dig and see what exactly happened, but will no longer post about her. Especially since I have come to terms with Kiirnodel. But... *goes off to browse his D&D library in search of a new image for this thread* :cool:
priest of blipdoolpoolp 02-03-05, 09:11 PM	I didn't buy the Dragonlance campaign book purely because of the artwork.
crustaceomutoid 02-03-05, 09:16 PM	Oh and to make it up to Mrs. Guay for all the criticism... here is a compliment. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery1/44199_C1_bard.jpg Very well done! Wonderful depiction of the Epic Bard.
RaspK FOG 02-03-05, 09:29 PM	Okay folks, you decide... Androgynous... http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00001OH7T.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg or teenage hooker? http://www.americanphoto.co.jp/pages/celeb/F/Foster_Jodie/Previews/Plans-33209.jpg I don't know about anyone else but I am definitely leaning towards the latter. A more visually appealing interpretation of what is androgynous by a more respectable (judging from their work) artist, take a look at THIS!! (http://www.furiae.com/)
Darth K'Trava 02-03-05, 09:32 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82070.jpg Eberron the comic book with bad art? Ugh! And that's not the only offender in the Eberron art gallery. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fb_gallery/83527.jpg Cold meets sleaze? Puh-leeze!! Most people would freeze in that skimpy, form-fitting outfit.
MadBlue 02-04-05, 01:25 AM	Eberron the comic book with bad art? Ugh! And that's not the only offender in the Eberron art gallery.Actually I like that picture. It reminds me of Mike Mignola's work (but I like Mike Mignola's work, too - YMMV). MadBlue
Scrubilicous 02-04-05, 02:57 AM	I can't stand most of the pictures of Tordek that show up all over the place. But then, I've always thought Dwarves were kind of a bad idea to begin with.
ssvegeta555 02-04-05, 03:40 AM	I can't stand most of the pictures of Tordek that show up all over the place. But then, I've always thought Dwarves were kind of a bad idea to begin with. Them fighting words. ;)
morning star 02-04-05, 08:07 AM	sulaco, you went on and on about erol otus that i had to check him out ... ... and i became a fan . i like the seventies vibe to his work . you look at it and go "what the ... " and just keep on looking. you just can't turn away. i've got a folder full of downloaded files at the moment and i'm even thinking of blowing some up into posters. this probably won't make your day but please take comfort in the fact that you have made changes to the world
Wharin 02-04-05, 08:22 AM	Them fighting words. ;) Indeed :ahem: Though, in a sense i do agree with Crustaceomutoid, in that, her medium simply doesnt match some of content that she did. I personally wouldn't mind seeing her doing every Cleric, Paladin, Knight-style fighter, Angel, Elf, and even Halfling (and she does a good Ghost), but the soft colours that water-colour gives simply doesnt match up with Dwarves and other gruff subjects. Is there a King Arthur picture book that she illustrated? If so I would definitely like to get my hands on it.
Escef 02-04-05, 08:34 AM	Is there a King Arthur picture book that she illustrated? If so I would definitely like to get my hands on it. That would be right up R.G.'s alley. As much as I love R.G.'s work, I do agree that there are some subjects that just plain don't mesh with her style. I honestly do not believe she could do a truely impressive giant robot. (Unless maybe it was massively clockworked out.)
crustaceomutoid 02-04-05, 11:15 AM	Complete Warrior, pg. 96 "Arcane Strike" by Steve Prescott http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75435.jpg Would like to rename this "Using Love Magic". Do a google search for sign language for love and you will realize the elf's left hand is saying "I love You". Even the swoosh of the sword is the color of L-O-V-E... :rofl: (As a side note I see that his thumb is a tad cocked, but it's still awefully damn close.)
Sulaco 02-04-05, 11:57 AM	Actually I like that picture. It reminds me of Mike Mignola's work (but I like Mike Mignola's work, too - YMMV). Good point. I really think this is just a case of "doesn't suit the genre" more than "bad art" IMO. I like the pieces but they say Hellboy, not D&D, to me.
Sulaco 02-04-05, 11:58 AM	sulaco, you went on and on about erol otus that i had to check him out ... ... and i became a fan Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! ;)
ChimericalWolf 02-04-05, 12:00 PM	I have to say that I like the "comic book" style for the chapter pages in Eberron. And here's what I know of the Guay thing. She's happily submitting her art when a new guy gets hired as the Art Director. New guy doesn't like Guay's work, informs her that her services are no longer needed. A fuss is raised by her fans. After a while, a few Magic sets, I believe, so about 6 months maybe, a new Art Director is hired, who calls up Lady Guay and invites her back to the loving circle of Wizards. The card, I think, is supposed to represent the large vocal fanbase she has, who'll raise a huge fuss if anyone tries to presecute her again.
Evil Wizard 02-04-05, 12:34 PM	Hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. It's just that hearing all this vitriol directed at Crabapple over his use of line, proportion, etc, I start wondering if we're even looking at the same pictures. I've taken art classes too, and the stuff labeled as his in the WotC galleries look fine to me. I think I'd need to see what you consider good linework to understand what's the matter. The Frostfell Adept from Frostfire certainly needs some help, but every artist has had a few stinkers. And I like Wayne Reynolds, just pointing out that no artist is perfect. Oh well, at least we can be jointly horrified at the idea of an Erol Otis fan. O_o
Nomad4life 02-04-05, 02:08 PM	Okay, now admittedly, I know nothing about art, and I have no idea who the various artists are or what their credentials should be. But HOW, in a post about bad D&D art, has the “vampire” from the MM 3.0 gone unnoticed so far!?!? I mean, just look at this guy; http://www.wizards.com/dnd/3E_Monster_0400.asp I… I really just don’t know what to say. Rather, if I START saying anything, I would never be able to stop. I mean, is this “vampire” wearing a fake set of wings!?!:: VAMPTHING: “Do not be afraid! I am an angel form the heavens!” PLAYER1: (Passes Wisdom test) “Ummm… I’m not entirely sure just what you are, but you’re NO angel…” VAMPTHING: “Errr… Right. What I meant was that I’m a poor, unfortunate plague victim! Just look at my skin! Look at my unexplainable rotting hands!” PLAYER2: “If you’re so poor, how did you afford those OoOooggglyy clothes? And that ornate cloak? And where HAVE your eyes gone?” VAMPTHING: “Actually, don’t mind me at all. I’m just a TREE! No, really, see the black thing growing out of my head? See how unnaturally rigid my posture is?” PLAYER3: “Then how do you explain the blood coming out of your mouth? Or wait… Is that even blood? Maybe it’s just a really goofy beard… I can’t really tell.” VAMPTHING: “Ok, fine, you got me. I’m a VAMPIRE!!! Lord of the night! Master of fear! Champion of darkness!!!” PLAYERS CRY LAUGHING FOR 15 MINUTES PLAYER4: “A vampire, huh? Than maybe you can explain what you’re doing out in the DAYLIGHT!?!” PLAYER1: “…Or at least explain what the deal with that fence is behind you…” PLAYER2: “A real vampire could have afforded a much better hair stylist…" PLAYER3: “Oh, that’s HAIR!? I thought he had just sprayed shaving foam all over his head.” VAMPTHING: “End your mockery! Woe is me! I am unfit even for undeath!” (Tries to stake self; doesn’t work.) VAMPTHING: “What? Why can’t I kill myself with the ol' stake through the heart routine!?” PLAYERS: “BECAUSE YOU’RE –NOT- A FRIGGIN’ VAMPIRE!!!!!!”
Fox Lee 02-04-05, 05:08 PM	That's not fair, Amano has Divine ranks! Hur hur... true dat :p Ohyes, and I would like to voice my support for Rebecca Guay, since "only a few people are defending her". I think her work is beautiful, and not just for the frequent appearance of sexy girls. Her MtG illustrations feature frequently in my "folder of the pretty" collection... some favourites are Elven Cache, the old Angelic Page, Calming Verse, Sunscape Apprentice, Protective Sphere (hey, so I like lesbian overtones), and Vodalian Hypnotist. Her work in Kamigawa block appeals to me a lot less, but that's mostly because the Kami are sort of obliged to look stoopid (you know, blobs with eye stalks and stuff). I can't wait for her work in Ravenka, which I'm sure will be gorgeous ^^
Mootilator 02-04-05, 05:20 PM	That vampire IS caca, I have to admit. No es bueno.
Darth K'Trava 02-04-05, 06:35 PM	Everyone keeps smacking around that 3.0 Blackguard....... Can someone post a pic of him? I'd like to see if he suxxors or not.
Darth K'Trava 02-04-05, 06:36 PM	That vampire IS caca, I have to admit. No es bueno. :rofl: He makes Alice Cooper and Rob Zombie look sexy!
Arcane Guyver 02-04-05, 08:08 PM	Here's the blackguard. Sorry guys, but he asked for it :( http://www.hobbyjapan.co.jp/dd/playdd/img/class/blackguard.jpg Kinda small, but it's all I could find (on what I think is the official Japan D&D site, no less [www.hobbyjapan.co.jp/dd/ (http://www.hobbyjapan.co.jp/dd/)] It doesn't seem quite so bad at that scale. There were other pieces of 'art' with that blackguard (I remember there was one that had him stabbing poor old Tordek on some sort of precipice). Thinking about it, I don't think the artists like Tordek very much. I'm sure they don't like Mialee. :embarrass
Darth K'Trava 02-04-05, 10:16 PM	I'd say he's quite comical.... The epitome of evil and nastiness? Pardon me whilst I go laugh my ass off..... :rofl: :rofl:
PhaedrusXY 02-04-05, 11:20 PM	Monster Manual II, pg. 123, artist initials "MM"... this thing must have solid steel I-Beam for a spine... :heehee :bounce:
Nomad4life 02-05-05, 09:55 AM	Ah, yes, the infamous Blackguard image… Personally, I think it’s a PERFECT picture! See, the Blackguard is supposed to be an abomination against all good, right? Well, that short, squat thing with the REDICULOUS helmet is certainly a crime against aesthetics.
Bulabase 02-05-05, 01:31 PM	This one by Erol Otus cracks me up: http://minipainting-guild.net/eo/Netherdeep_Cover_LowRez.jpg I must admit, I love this picture. It is silly as can be. I suppose a tounge in cheek game like Hackmaster is the place for Otis. My favorite part of this picture is the Drow in the background who seems to be part of the "Girls Gone Wild" videos.
Zendu 02-05-05, 03:12 PM	rofl i knew girls gone wild was getting low on material but...
edgelett 02-05-05, 05:23 PM	I must admit, I love this picture. It is silly as can be. I suppose a tounge in cheek game like Hackmaster is the place for Otis. My favorite part of this picture is the Drow in the background who seems to be part of the "Girls Gone Wild" videos. I was just thinking "Wow, that looks like wicked Hackmaster art!" If you want to see something TRULY gruesome, check out what the Owlbear is doing on the cover of the HM game "Little Keep On The Boarderlands." http://www.kenzerco.com/images/rpg/hackmaster/hm_littlekeep.jpg
Bulabase 02-05-05, 05:41 PM	That's pretty much how my first experience with the original "Keep on the Borderlands" went.
e-z0r 02-06-05, 12:04 AM	Nofgb
e-z0r 02-06-05, 12:05 AM	Some opinions.. Firstly I like Crabapple. Well, I don't, but I do. See, I don't look at pictures and notice artists (fool as I am), so now that Crabapple had been brought up so much and someone posted a link to the Frostburn gallery I looked through all the Crabapple work and I think they are very nice. Except http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fb_gallery/83580.jpg, but that's just one. Second, whoever posted the picture about the worm from FF, I HATE you for doing that. Good lord that was disturbing. I may never be the same innocent me I was to this day. Erol Otus.. GOOD LORD! What.. The.. Bug.. Huh.. Uh.. Buh... UGLY! VERY VERY UGLY! They make my whole being scream "Run away!" One would expect that any book with that on it would grow 8 legs and rip the world in twine. G.. Uh! TERRIBLE! Take a look at this from frostburn btw: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fb_gallery/83578.jpg And the arcane strike image.. Absolutely terrible that posture and the face.. And the creature. Everything.
DrWorm 02-06-05, 03:54 AM	Man, you best leave Rebecca Guay alone, sucka! :P She is one of my all time favorite artists, though i agree that there is something wrong with the angle of the crossbow. No disrespect and all, but most of Guay's published MTG and D&D work blows chunks. I am all for a more wartercolory sylvan style, but her work is so dull (Joyous Respite). The only published work I have ever seen that I like of hers is the art for the MTG card Wonder. Other than that her art seems to just lay there on the page. Now some of the works on her website are nice in and of themselves, but in the media that I have seen her (D&D and Magic) it just seems to lack depth. I know she has legions of fans, especially MTG fans, but I just don't get it. Her work is distinctive though, I will give her that.
Asciiman 02-06-05, 04:32 AM	I must admit, I love this picture. It is silly as can be. I suppose a tounge in cheek game like Hackmaster is the place for Otis. My favorite part of this picture is the Drow in the background who seems to be part of the "Girls Gone Wild" videos. LMAO!!! OMG!!!! I'm laughing so hard I'm crying!!!
Darth K'Trava 02-06-05, 08:34 PM	Some opinions.. Firstly I like Crabapple. Well, I don't, but I do. See, I don't look at pictures and notice artists (fool as I am), so now that Crabapple had been brought up so much and someone posted a link to the Frostburn gallery I looked through all the Crabapple work and I think they are very nice. Except http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fb_gallery/83580.jpg, but that's just one. Ok. Did Rob Zombie p:censored: off Crabapple at some point?!?!?! 'Cause that's just.....um.....UGH!!!
Darth K'Trava 02-06-05, 08:37 PM	http://minipainting-guild.net/eo/Netherdeep_Cover_LowRez.jpg What's funny is that my cleric did that very same thing to some bad guy we were fighting. (bashing his head down into his stomach)
e-z0r 02-06-05, 09:56 PM	What's funny is that my cleric did that very same thing to some bad guy we were fighting. (bashing his head down into his stomach) Not really, no.
Kiirnodel 02-06-05, 09:58 PM	What's funny is that my cleric did that very same thing to some bad guy we were fighting. (bashing his head down into his stomach) That's really...like impossible to do...so...it jsu would'nt been a happy skull crack though. [edit]someone beat me to it.
Darth K'Trava 02-06-05, 10:21 PM	It was the DM description that resembled the pic is what I thought was funny, not the actual action itself.
Dackad 02-07-05, 01:32 AM	You know, I've seen much worse Otus art. That really isn't that bad, it looks like it's supposed to be humorous, in an over-the-top violent sort-of way. Take a gander at the old Vault of the Drow cover. Bad, bad, bad. Some people think 'spikey armor' was introduced in 3e, but old Mr. Otus was putting it on scantily clad drow femwarriors as early as 1980! The man was seer I tell you :)
Aricandor 02-07-05, 12:06 PM	Surprised no one has taken this up: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85451.jpg It's not because of prejudice or anything like that. I just picture necromancers as being the opposite of this picture (that is, IMO the "traditional" necromancer is male and skinny...)
Nomad4life 02-07-05, 12:32 PM	I actually LOVE that picture… It makes sense to me that an old, fat, ugly woman would take up The Dark Arts after becoming disillusioned with society. Really, this is what I see first when I think "Necromancer."
Escef 02-07-05, 12:38 PM	It makes sense to me that an old, fat, ugly woman would take up The Dark Arts after becoming disillusioned with society. Ah, you've met my mother!
TheMightyMcClaw 02-07-05, 02:38 PM	Come on, guys... why has no one mentioned D20 Future yet? Little Billy drew this one: http://www.wizards.com/d20modern/images/d20f_gallery/82774.jpg His head is growing out of control: http://www.wizards.com/d20modern/images/d20f_gallery/82776.jpg A terrible space-time warp has occured in her legs: http://www.wizards.com/d20modern/images/d20f_gallery/82782.jpg Witty comments escape me: http://www.wizards.com/d20modern/images/d20f_gallery/82865.jpg
Darth K'Trava 02-07-05, 08:17 PM	Maybe because alot of us don't play d20 Future? A contender from Libris Mortis: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84780.jpg
Nomad4life 02-07-05, 11:42 PM	I was OK with the D20 Future artwork… Until that last pic. Wow.
e-z0r 02-08-05, 01:05 AM	McClaw what? The pic with the floating little thing in a space suit is wonderful! Made me chuckle. Humour is good.
MadBlue 02-08-05, 07:48 AM	I was OK with the D20 Future artwork… Until that last pic. Wow.Out of context, yeah. Although it's not actually in the d20 Future book or the VRNet web enhancement, it's clear (clear if you have d20 Modern, that is) that it's Brandon Cross (the iconic Smart Hero) as a Cybernaut (a "netrunner" Advanced Class from the VRNet web enhancement) and the little astronaut character is his Avatar. The flavor text for Avatar description in VRNet even says "lovable cartoon characters are quite popular". :) MadBlue
Ilium 02-08-05, 08:56 AM	I thought the d20 future and Libris Mortis stuff posted was just fine. The "Extreme perspective" things from d20 future might not be my cup of tea, but they're not bad. People are starting to reach. :)
Phrennzy 02-08-05, 09:43 AM	The 2nd d20 Modern pic is good.
Sulaco 02-08-05, 10:02 AM	His head is growing out of control: A terrible space-time warp has occured in her legs: It's called "foreshortening". When something is nearer the viewer it seems larger. This is an extreme example of it but there is nothing woring with it at all.
Darth K'Trava 02-08-05, 11:06 AM	I thought the d20 future and Libris Mortis stuff posted was just fine. The "Extreme perspective" things from d20 future might not be my cup of tea, but they're not bad. People are starting to reach. :) I don't know about "reaching" but it's all a matter of POV..... D20Future looks like some comic book art I've seen a few years ago when I bought comics. Same thing with Eberron art, which looks like Mike Mignola did all the art for it like he did Hellboy.
Ilium 02-08-05, 11:13 AM	I don't know about "reaching" but it's all a matter of POV..... D20Future looks like some comic book art I've seen a few years ago when I bought comics. Same thing with Eberron art, which looks like Mike Mignola did all the art for it like he did Hellboy. Right. I just think some of the art posted earlier was genuinely sub-par, while now people seem to be posting things they simply don't like stylistically (though they are well executed). I'm just glad we seem to be reaching the bottom of the "bottom of the barrel" barrel. :D
Keenath 02-09-05, 11:20 AM	Have you checked out the new cover (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/177410000) for the book. Much better IMO. Does anyone have a link to the old cover of the Lords of Madness book? I hadn't seen it, so when somebody said it looked like it was drawn with crayolas, I had to go look.. and I saw this beautiful piece of art, and didn't know what he meant. I'd like to get a look at the sucky version, if anyone knows where it is anymore.
Vampireslayer 02-09-05, 11:31 AM	Does anyone have a link to the old cover of the Lords of Madness book? I hadn't seen it, so when somebody said it looked like it was drawn with crayolas, I had to go look.. and I saw this beautiful piece of art, and didn't know what he meant. I'd like to get a look at the sucky version, if anyone knows where it is anymore. You can find it here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786936576/qid=1107320569/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-9712053-7845749?v=glance)
Keenath 02-09-05, 12:05 PM	Thank you. Sorry I didn't see it before; I just found the post where somebody else had asked the same question.
P33KAJ3W 02-09-05, 01:49 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75398.jpg This one has always made me feel a bit quesy. i love this one! I'd have to second that horrible tiefling-thing Callahan posted... Another set of bad ones, though, is the gem dragons from the MM2, like this Amethyst Dragon: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_36.jpg I love the style on it
Zendu 02-09-05, 02:54 PM	first off the dragon does belong in here. About the dwarf though, it is pretty decent artwork, but for me the thing thats repulsive about it is the odd mix of styles (dwarf samuri...wtf)
Callahan 02-09-05, 03:19 PM	About the dwarf though, it is pretty decent artwork, but for me the thing thats repulsive about it is the odd mix of styles (dwarf samuri...wtf) Speciest
Ilium 02-09-05, 03:38 PM	first off the dragon does belong in here. About the dwarf though, it is pretty decent artwork, but for me the thing thats repulsive about it is the odd mix of styles (dwarf samuri...wtf) My only problem with that picture is he's holding the sword wrong. :D
Callahan 02-10-05, 04:32 AM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/leof_gallery/86716.jpg this guy looks like he ate too many donuts.
Keenath 02-10-05, 10:51 AM	VAMPTHING: “End your mockery! Woe is me! I am unfit even for undeath!” (Tries to stake self; doesn’t work.) VAMPTHING: “What? Why can’t I kill myself with the ol' stake through the heart routine!?” PLAYERS: “BECAUSE YOU’RE –NOT- A FRIGGIN’ VAMPIRE!!!!!!” I dunno... in general, a stake through the heart works on just about anything!
Evil Wizard 02-10-05, 10:55 AM	I never thought I'd see a fat beholder. The issue I have with those two middle d20 Future images is that they portray foreshortening gone horribly wrong. Now I am speaking from experience here, that is not how you foreshorten. In fact that artist is making a common mistake, enlarging the part nearest to the viewer. It looks wrong because it is; viewed from the front, that guy would have a huge head, and the girl would have enormous legs. Logically you'd think the part nearest to you should be much bigger than the part farthest away, because its closer. However, the actual distance isn't that great, only a few feet. To the eye, a depth of a few feet only constitutes a slight change in percieved size. If you were to draw a person pointing his arm directly forward at the viewer, the hand should only be a bit bigger than it normally would. It's closer, but only by a margin of a couple feet, so the size difference will be small. Likewise, the portions of the arm visible should also remain roughly at their actual size. Try it in the mirror sometime. The first image isn't really that bad; it's more a failure of coloring. The fourth one is just fine. The floating guy there, I gathered, is supposed to be cartoonish and goofy. Given context, it makes perfect sense. And to voice my own opinion on Rebecca Guay, she's a good artist, but she's given assignments that aren't compatible with her style. Her art winds up looking very out of place in the D&D books. And I've always felt that a number of her illustrations don't really portray what they're supposed to be representing.
Keenath 02-10-05, 11:13 AM	The issue I have with those two middle d20 Future images is that they portray foreshortening gone horribly wrong. ... To the eye, a depth of a few feet only constitutes a slight change in percieved size. If you were to draw a person pointing his arm directly forward at the viewer, the hand should only be a bit bigger than it normally would. It's closer, but only by a margin of a couple feet, so the size difference will be small. Absolutely correct. Both of these drawings closely resemble photographs taken from too close with an extreme fish-eye lens -- things in the center are magnified, while things on the edges are relatively shrunken. If the guy was TRYING to imitate the style of somebody shoving their face into a security camera, then he succeeded. Otherwise, it's a (relatively minor!) failure of skill.
MadBlue 02-10-05, 12:30 PM	this guy looks like he ate too many donuts.:D You owe me a new keyboard. It's a good picture, otherwise though. Maybe it was a picture taken when some adventurers surprised the Beholder in a privy, and it was like "hey..." (although following that train of thought might lead to areas best covered in the Mature Forums). ;) MadBlue
Delusional Illusion 02-10-05, 06:17 PM	I hope no one has posted these yet... These two aren't very pleasing to my eye. Or maybe I have something against brains :P http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80511.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33557.jpg
Bulabase 02-10-05, 09:03 PM	Delusional Illusion, I like the first of the two, but not the Intellect Devourer. It lacks depth or perspective or whatever. I think I am trying to say it's two dimensional. It's not too bad, though. Maybe I just have a thing for brains.
Darth K'Trava 02-10-05, 10:11 PM	They're kinda on the repulsive side of things.
Bulabase 02-10-05, 10:57 PM	The first brain (the green one) looks like something from an album cover. I am really growing to like it. Where did it come from?
Callahan 02-10-05, 11:15 PM	The first brain (the green one) looks like something from an album cover. I am really growing to like it. Where did it come from? Psionic handbook... where else would you find brains? ... that are not in jars.
Aubri 02-11-05, 11:50 AM	Good point. I really think this is just a case of "doesn't suit the genre" more than "bad art" IMO. I like the pieces but they say Hellboy, not D&D, to me.Well, I love the Eberron art. It very handily captures the "pulp" feel that Keith Baker originally envisioned. If it says "Hellboy", well, that might be a good thing--Eberron is supposed to have a distinctly non-Traditional-D&D flavor. My only problem with that picture is he's holding the sword wrong. :D Ditto that. He might look a little off balance, but that's the nature of the classic martial arts "forward" stance. He's got the sword in a "hammer" grip, though, so his arms are gonna be sore after the fight... :) (For anyone interested, the proper grip is like this (http://www.jaxion.com/samurais.net/grip.htm).)
Scarlet Knight 02-14-05, 11:19 PM	I don't like this one: http://wizards.com/dnd/images/row_gallery/86636.jpg How many daggers does Lidda really need? :confused:
MadBlue 02-14-05, 11:30 PM	I don't like this one: How many daggers does Lidda really need? :confused:Isn't there a saying regarding Chuck Lukacs' art that goes, "when all you can do is draw gems, everything looks like a gem to you"? MadBlue
The White Sorcerer 02-15-05, 05:49 AM	How many daggers does Lidda really need?As many as she can get her sneaky little fingers on.
Vharuck 02-15-05, 12:39 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/leof_gallery/86688.jpg How does this guy move? http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84772.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84773.jpg Makes me ashamed to own the Libris Mortis.
Keenath 02-15-05, 01:40 PM	Aww, c'mon. Those aren't BAD pictures. Maybe you don't like the subject matter or the armor design, but the drawings themselves are very good.
e-z0r 02-15-05, 01:50 PM	Oddly enough, the undead girl with the doll has also been mentioned in the greatest illustration in a wotc book thread.
Evil Wizard 02-15-05, 02:13 PM	Bear in mind, folks, that gruesome doesn't equal bad. In fact, if the intent is to inspire horror or creepiness, the creepier the picture, they better it is. If that undead little girl makes you feel really freaked out, then it is a very good picture.
Dark Kyosuke 02-15-05, 02:25 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/leof_gallery/86688.jpg How does this guy move? Very, very slowly.
Sulaco 02-15-05, 02:37 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/leof_gallery/86688.jpg How does this guy move? Very slowly, while shouting "Exterminate! Exterminate!"
Slider33 02-15-05, 06:23 PM	I will second the illustrations in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting... ESPECIALLY the picture of the Sivak Draconian. Now that is just sad. Since I remember how awesome some pictures were in my friends old AD&D Dragonlance book, the pics in the new DLCS don't do DL any justice.
Darth K'Trava 02-15-05, 06:51 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/leof_gallery/86688.jpg How does this guy move? Very carefully! ;) Sulaco: Very funny!! :rofl:
TigerWolfe 02-17-05, 12:06 AM	I know that several of you guys are bashing on that erol guy. But if you think about it the dnd books used to be much less serious. I mean they even had funny captions and stuff. (in one there is a picture of like a fighter, wizard, and a cleric playing an rpg called students and accountants or something and it's set in an ultra modern technology based society.) So the overblown gore and odd look of the monsters is kindof fitting for a more humorous dnd.
Sulaco 02-17-05, 10:33 AM	I know that several of you guys are bashing on that erol guy. But if you think about it the dnd books used to be much less serious. I mean they even had funny captions and stuff. (in one there is a picture of like a fighter, wizard, and a cleric playing an rpg called students and accountants or something and it's set in an ultra modern technology based society.) So the overblown gore and odd look of the monsters is kindof fitting for a more humorous dnd. It has nothing to do with the "overblown gore and odd look of the monsters", they are just really, really bad. Otus simply has no skill and no talent as an illustrator IMO.
Nomad4life 02-17-05, 06:03 PM	You know, I always wondered why they didn't just get Boris Vallejo to do ALL the WoTC artwork... :rofl:
edgelett 02-17-05, 06:29 PM	Seems I was right - the picture by Erol Otus IS a Hackmaster cover, NOT a WOTC D&D picture at all: http://www.kenzerco.com/images/rpg/hackmaster/ndeep.jpg SO since the picture was done for a parody game, does that therefore make it a BAD picture, or a DELIBERATELY bad picture?
hiryuu 02-17-05, 07:09 PM	You know, I always wondered why they didn't just get Boris Vallejo to do ALL the WoTC artwork... :rofl: Because he'd be just as bad, if not worse.
liberdave 02-17-05, 10:02 PM	Does anyone remember the flaming **** bard from the phb 2 nd ed? PIN STRIP TIGHTS!! Big ole' ^#%@-eatin grin? :dancin:
Callahan 02-17-05, 11:05 PM	Does anyone remember the flaming **** bard from the phb 2 nd ed? PIN STRIP TIGHTS!! Big ole' ^#%@-eatin grin? :dancin: you mean the reason why no one in my group played a bard till 3rd ed?
Nomad4life 02-17-05, 11:46 PM	Does anyone remember the flaming **** bard from the phb 2 nd ed? PIN STRIP TIGHTS!! Big ole' ^#%@-eatin grin? :dancin: I just looked around the net for it, but came up with nothing. Does anyone know a link to it? I want to change my brother's desktop wallpaper to that goofy bard.
Aricandor 02-18-05, 05:21 AM	I just looked around the net for it, but came up with nothing. Does anyone know a link to it? I want to change my brother's desktop wallpaper to that goofy bard. Now that's just mean :P
Taeldrin Laesrash 02-19-05, 03:43 PM	Forme, the worst illustration is the Epic Level Handbook's Storm Silverhand. They did say she was human, right?
VirgilCaine 02-19-05, 07:12 PM	Complete Arcane is an absolute treasure trove of horrendus artwork. However, it does have this, one of my favorite bits of D&D art: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85459.jpg I didn't know that Minotaurs were yellow. Or routinely fought adventurers while naked. Maybe he's a Sorceror or Druid under the influence of incense of obsession. "I don't need pants, I have MAGIC!" His work is the illustrative equivalent of a bowel exam: painful and stinks of . In spite of the fact his work is possibly the worst ever to earn their creator a paycheque, there are some fanatcial Otus fanboys out there (and I imagine that a few of them will be piping up very soon to cast aspersions on my artistic taste, mental state, and parentage). GAAHH!! Sanity Damage! Gah! Lets see, yellow-green light? Monty Python? Lines that don't form anything? Euugh. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ros_gallery/83306.jpg How can we forget? Wait, the shadow is behind him, so why is he in shadow? WTH? I don't know about anyone else but I am definitely leaning towards the latter. Wrong city, good movie. It's called "foreshortening". When something is nearer the viewer it seems larger. This is an extreme example of it but there is nothing woring with it at all. Thank you. I thought that was what it was called, but I'm just taking Art History cause it's nifty. How many daggers does Lidda really need? Enough so that she'd be able to say this: "I am COMPLETELY out of [daggers]. That's never happened to me before." I know that several of you guys are bashing on that erol guy. But if you think about it the dnd books used to be much less serious. I mean they even had funny captions and stuff. (in one there is a picture of like a fighter, wizard, and a cleric playing an rpg called students and accountants or something and it's set in an ultra modern technology based society.) So the overblown gore and odd look of the monsters is kindof fitting for a more humorous dnd. Uh, yeah, but the little cartoons in the 1e DMG were better than Erols stuff. It's also interesting that the cartoons reference barbarians when there weren't any in 1e AFAIK. Anyway, maybe my standards are too high after taking Art History II and seeing all the nifty uber-detailed Northern European paintings that you can like read the books in or the very well balanced, uber-realistic later Renaissance paintings.
Zendu 02-19-05, 09:33 PM	To be entirly fair, that is a bad scan of the blade bravo that accentuates the shadow, although the problem is still there. As for the minataur, so its yellow, -5 pts, its still no where near worthy to be in this thread, i mean look at it...
Darth K'Trava 02-19-05, 10:50 PM	To be entirly fair, that is a bad scan of the blade bravo that accentuates the shadow, although the problem is still there. That and his/her's body is out of proportion. As for the minataur, so its yellow, -5 pts, its still no where near worthy to be in this thread, i mean look at it... A minotaur with a bad case of jaundice?
Shatteredtower 02-19-05, 10:58 PM	I never thought I'd see a fat beholder. He's not fat -- he's big-bowled! And while I admit that a few of Mr. Otis' pieces were winceworthy (the last Cthulu Mythos entry in the first printing of Deities and Demigods), a few others were salvageable with the right inker and penciller, which is damning with faint praise, I suppose, since it wasn't obviously him. Still, I found his images did lend themselves well to adding in color to bring out the image. Then again, maybe I'm thinking of another artist that used to work for the company, one who also did images for the drow and giant modules, one whose submissions were primarily disconnected linework. Ah, well. I really don't care for the way the books since 2nd Edition have started using paper less suited to colored pencils, even for the uncolored images. I never learned enough, but I was starting to learn something before they decided to stop menaces like me from vandalizing other people's work. :P I'm also not a fan of the way Mialee tends to be rendered. It just always looks wrong to me. Other characters might strike me as absurdly dressed at times, but she just strikes me as looking absurd. I'm not sure what it is, but she just feels like she's missing a dimension when compared to the others. I suppose there's something to giving an elf an alien appearance, but those images make me thing she's made of felt and could be slid under a door if she lay flat. (I know it's a 2D image, but she looks more 2D than any other character.)
Super Guy 02-20-05, 12:12 AM	I spent the past hour going through this thread. I haven't anything to contribute, but I just want to say that you guys made my day, this is hilarious. :rofl:
e-z0r 02-20-05, 05:12 AM	I really don't care for the way the books since 2nd Edition have started using paper less suited to colored pencils, even for the uncolored images. I never learned enough, but I was starting to learn something before they decided to stop menaces like me from vandalizing other people's work. :P You can print the stuff from Wizards' pages, those character portraits and others, and color them while you play. Very entertaining, yet doesn't take as much thought as drawing your own pictures so you're not distracted from the game. I'm also not a fan of the way Mialee tends to be rendered. It just always looks wrong to me. Other characters might strike me as absurdly dressed at times, but she just strikes me as looking absurd. I'm not sure what it is, but she just feels like she's missing a dimension when compared to the others. I suppose there's something to giving an elf an alien appearance, but those images make me thing she's made of felt and could be slid under a door if she lay flat. (I know it's a 2D image, but she looks more 2D than any other character.) Hmph. Maybe Mialee doesn't have gazongas the size of footballs, but that's just the way some people have it! You don't have to have a gallon of silicone in your chest!
Nomad4life 02-20-05, 01:38 PM	Hmph. Maybe Mialee doesn't have gazongas the size of footballs, but that's just the way some people have it! You don't have to have a gallon of silicone in your chest! No, but you should- the extra fortitude save bonus is worth it from front-facing attacks. Not to mention the charisma modifier.
Darth K'Trava 02-20-05, 06:14 PM	No, but you should- the extra fortitude save bonus is worth it from front-facing attacks. Not to mention the charisma modifier. With them, she might get her Charisma up to a 10..... It's gonna take more than huge gazongas to make her attractive.
e-z0r 02-20-05, 08:23 PM	No, but you should- the extra fortitude save bonus is worth it from front-facing attacks. Not to mention the charisma modifier. Then everyone who'd be shorter than you would be invisible for you. "Wait, where's Lidda? Oh there! Sorry, couldn't see you from behind my rack."
Shatteredtower 02-20-05, 11:08 PM	Hmph. Maybe Mialee doesn't have gazongas the size of footballs, but that's just the way some people have it! You don't have to have a gallon of silicone in your chest! I assure you, her chest size was not on my mind when I wrote that. Such an enlargement would not have in any way negated the opinion I expressed, though I am grateful to the artists for not exaggerating that feature. I wrote "flat" as in two-dimensional, not "flat-chested" as in a comment made by someone who can't recognize a breast unless it's bigger than his head. I'll credit the design with trying to reflect a race with good Spot and Listen modifiers, if that was the goal in mind.
Thamior Magus Rex 02-20-05, 11:20 PM	Just about all of the artwork in the Dragonlance sourcebook is crap. What has consistantly annoyed me is the design of Elf ears-pointed jugs that look really stupid. With ears like that you could expect to hear a mouse fart a mile away. Completely out of proportion.
Web_Dancer 02-21-05, 12:11 AM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82090.jpg If you are going to use a whole new art style for the Eberron Campaign Setting, at least keep that style consistent. :rolleyes: What an ugly picture.
e-z0r 02-21-05, 08:07 AM	I assure you, her chest size was not on my mind when I wrote that. Such an enlargement would not have in any way negated the opinion I expressed, though I am grateful to the artists for not exaggerating that feature. I wrote "flat" as in two-dimensional, not "flat-chested" as in a comment made by someone who can't recognize a breast unless it's bigger than his head. I'll credit the design with trying to reflect a race with good Spot and Listen modifiers, if that was the goal in mind. Yep yep. Deliberate misunderstanding is so much fun though. ;)
MadBlue 02-21-05, 10:29 AM	Hmph. Maybe Mialee doesn't have gazongas the size of footballs, but that's just the way some people have it! You don't have to have a gallon of silicone in your chest!I'm assuming you mean footballs used in countries outside the States, but it made me think of my grandmother for some reason... :D MadBlue
Mootilator 02-21-05, 12:59 PM	I'm assuming you mean footballs used in countries outside the States, but it made me think of my grandmother for some reason... :D MadBlue Mmm...MadBlue's grandmother. :rofl:
VirgilCaine 02-21-05, 03:11 PM	That and his/her's body is out of proportion. A minotaur with a bad case of jaundice? And look at the angle of the eyes. Euugh. He's not "little" Wilbur Whately.
Darth K'Trava 02-21-05, 04:53 PM	Just about all of the artwork in the Dragonlance sourcebook is crap. What has consistantly annoyed me is the design of Elf ears-pointed jugs that look really stupid. With ears like that you could expect to hear a mouse fart a mile away. Completely out of proportion. You've obviously have never seen anime elves then..... ;) Now you want to talk about disproportionate ears? Heck, those ears they have supercede any D&D-related elf's any day!
Sulaco 02-21-05, 05:30 PM	Completely out of proportion. Out of proportion to what? They aren't human so why should they be expected to fall within the parameters of human proportions?
ssvegeta555 02-21-05, 06:16 PM	You've obviously have never seen anime elves then..... ;) Now you want to talk about disproportionate ears? Heck, those ears they have supercede any D&D-related elf's any day! yeah anime elf ears are really long compared to D&D elves. If anyone is curious you can look here (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/shiningtears/screens.html?page=27) for an example.
MadBlue 02-23-05, 04:15 AM	Mmm...MadBlue's grandmother. :rofl:I got the image of breasts the shape of American footballs (as opposed to the size of soccerballs), but be my guest. You'll need to arrange for a seance though. ;) Err, not that I've actually seen them... I just meant... you know, old lady, kinda saggy... Not that I know all about... ehhh... I'll be going now. :doh: MadBlue :D
Thamior Magus Rex 02-23-05, 08:37 AM	Out of proportion to what? They aren't human so why should they be expected to fall within the parameters of human proportions? Ok first off we are discussing fictional beings. That said an animals primary sensory organ is the one most highly developed-dogs and cats use scent, sight and hearing to track prey so those senses are most highly developed. Where humans have 1 nerve in their olfactory systems, dogs have 18 and cats have 23. Even so said sensory organs are proportional to the species or breed size-with ears the size represented in the artwork I would expect an elf to have a bigger bonus to listen checks than a mere +2. Also under the functional definition of a species in all biology textbooks, especially in higher organisms, humans and elves are the same species since they can produce viable offspring-that is offspring that are healthy and can reproduce themselves.
Thamior Magus Rex 02-23-05, 08:54 AM	Does anyone remember the flaming **** bard from the phb 2 nd ed? PIN STRIP TIGHTS!! Big ole' ^#%@-eatin grin? :dancin: Oh yeah I remember. But it also depends what printing of the PhB you have. I bought my copy in 1992 in Saint Paul MN, USA and it has different artwork than PhB's my friends bought here in Australia in 1999. Some was really good, such as the picture by Larry Elmore on page 7, and really bad-most of the rest.
Psychoray 02-23-05, 09:36 AM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85435.jpg Now this is just plain ugly. (Both of them actually.)
Sulaco 02-23-05, 11:48 AM	Also under the functional definition of a species in all biology textbooks, especially in higher organisms, humans and elves are the same species since they can produce viable offspring-that is offspring that are healthy and can reproduce themselves. Sorry, I must have missed the chapter on "fictional creatures that were created by magic" in the biology books. My bad. Real-world biological rules don't enter in to D&D. I would like it if they did but they don't. The races were created by gods - not evolution - and if their creators wanted to give them tails growing out of the middle fo their foreheads then that is what they'd have. Humans and Elves are not the same species but they can interbreed D&D. Elves have big pointy ears but don't have ultra-keen hearing. This doesn't make any real-world biological sense but it's true. Learn to deal.
Ilium 02-23-05, 11:54 AM	Now this is just plain ugly. (Both of them actually.) Have to agree. It's funny because I think the painting is well-executed, but the monk character is just funky-looking (and has bad, BAD hair). But that doesn't make it a bad painting, IMO. Not one of my top 10 by any means, but I don't think it qualifies for the thread. :)
e-z0r 02-23-05, 11:56 AM	Elves have big pointy ears Not necessarily..
Aricandor 02-23-05, 03:03 PM	yeah anime elf ears are really long compared to D&D elves. If anyone is curious you can look here (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/shiningtears/screens.html?page=27) for an example. Oh my god... I just keep getting more and more hateful of Anime.. :mad: This didn't help at all... *shudder*
Sulaco 02-23-05, 03:10 PM	Oh my god... I just keep getting more and more hateful of Anime.. :mad: This didn't help at all... *shudder* To be fair though, the link actually was for a screen from a game which, according to X-Play anyway, is the worst RPG of the century.
Sulaco 02-23-05, 03:12 PM	Not necessarily.. This is a D&D discussion board. D&D elves have big pointy ears. Since D&D elves are the only ones pertinent to this discussion I find nothing wrong with simply saying "elves" in this context without having to clarify. If it makes you feel better: D&D elves have big pointy ears. And just to save you the time I will respond for you: Not necessarily..
ssvegeta555 02-23-05, 04:40 PM	To be fair though, the link actually was for a screen from a game which, according to X-Play anyway, is the worst RPG of the century. except X-play didnt say any good reason why it was soo bad. I think it might be a good game, 2 player RPGs are hard to find now-a-days. I might buy the game. Plus that elf chick if hot. :D
e-z0r 02-24-05, 12:58 AM	Plus that elf chick if hot. :D Try Lineage 2. Them's some hot elf chicks. Only you get disillusioned when you see the 800th elf girl that looks just like the same as the last one 'cause there's only two different faces (basically one that has a bit thinner eyes and one that doesn't), a couple hair styles (really couple 2-4 max), and two hair colors to choose from. That makes up the character customization. Yay! Even Anarchy Online has nine different combinations of body build (tall, medium, short -- thin, medium, heavy) and a whole lot of faces for each race and gender. And actual buyable clothes by the truckload. Lineage2 just has armor, which I grant is pretty impressive looking from the screenshots. Didn't get interested enough to play so far to actually see how nice they are in game.
Mordmorgan the Mad 02-24-05, 01:53 AM	Real-world biological rules don't enter in to D&D. I would like it if they did but they don't. The races were created by gods - not evolution - and if their creators wanted to give them tails growing out of the middle fo their foreheads then that is what they'd have. Learn to deal. Indeed http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83075.jpg
ssvegeta555 02-24-05, 02:31 AM	Try Lineage 2. Them's some hot elf chicks. I hear ya. :cool:
Sulaco 02-24-05, 11:55 AM	except X-play didnt say any good reason why it was soo bad. They gave many good reasons why it is so bad: bland graphics, crap sound, derivitive gameplay, hackneyed writing, etc...
aleph_woodenglenn 02-24-05, 01:21 PM	first edition MM, fiend folio et al the cover art of MM I is really atrocious, but all these books are chalk full of hilariously bad illustrations. cover art to be found at http://www.answers.com/topic/monster-manual
Ilium 02-24-05, 01:32 PM	Technically those aren't WotC books. They're TSR. I believe they paid the artists in dead crickets and office space. :)
ssvegeta555 02-24-05, 02:29 PM	They gave many good reasons why it is so bad: bland graphics, crap sound, derivitive gameplay, hackneyed writing, etc... I must of missed those. The only thing I remember hearing was "you know what... this game is soo bad <add dumb joke here>"
aleph_woodenglenn 02-24-05, 03:39 PM	Technically those aren't WotC books. They're TSR. I believe they paid the artists in dead crickets and office space. :) note to self...read thread title next time. Of course Classic D&D art does have the quaint charm and humor that WotC seems to have allowed slip from its pages (monks ala friar tuck running into the back of a metal-clad paladin who stopped to listen ahead, etc)