Alphabets: how to simulate Draconic, Celestial, etc. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alphabets: how to simulate Draconic, Celestial, etc. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
12-30-05, 08:37 PM I'm just wondering, for DMs who, when they give their players real-life versions of the notes that they find in game, so that they can look at them and mull them over IRL as their characters would instead of just having them described, and annoying the DM by having him describe them repeatedly when they forget what they say, how to simulate alphabets besides common (which is, presumably, simulated at the common real life language of the players and DM, usually English).

For a PC who knows, say, Draconic, of course, you might hand the player a note written in English, but it would be neat if a player who didn't know Draconic picked it up and looked at it, thinking, "what is this gibberish?" and then, when, say, the player casts "comprehend languages," you hand her the real (English) version of the note.

For Dwarven and Elven, presumably, one might go with the Tolkien alphabets, with Dwarven looking like nordic runes and elven looking like... well, you know.

With the Latin alphabet being Common, and Dwarven and Elven addressed, that leaves the Druidic, Draconic, Infernal, and Celestial alphabets to be addressed.

What are your ideas?

All of this assumes, by the way, that your characters won't actually know any languages that use the alphabets, so that you can just write gibberish and say that it's indecipherable.

I'd go with Druidic being some kind of Cuneiform, just because all those triangles seem to coney the sort of monolithic, primitive cultural "style" I think fits druids.

I'll say Celestial might be Sanskrit. It looks rather elegant. Also, Latin is the liturgical language of Medeival Europe, but Latin uses, of course, the Latin alphabet, which is used today. The liturgical feel adds to the idea of Celestial as a "holy" language.

Draconic might use some kind of Arabic alphabet. Somehow looks right. Also, it's the alphabet of Ignan, and the Plane of Fire, I think, is supposed to have a sorta Arabian style.

Infernal... we'd want a very orderly, rule-bound alphabet. I'd go with Hangul. No offense to Koreans! It's not that Hangul is evil: it's that it was designed very self-consciously by a king (Sejong the Great) and maybe a small team of other people, with very rigid rules, in contrast to the more organic, haphazard systems of other alphabets, which seems to fit the style of the Baatezu, who are, after all, supposed to be almost as lawful as the Modrons.

(One wonders -- what language do the Modrons and Slaadi use? Well, maybe the Modrons talk in binary, and the Slaadi start their messages writing in Celestial, switch to Goblin in the middle of their messages, and then finish off in Druidic, with the subject of their writing fluctuating even more erratically than their language. Tanar'ri probably hate the fact that they use the Infernal alphabet, but they can't afford to be as chaotic and unfocussed as the Slaadi, because the Baatezu would start winning the Blood War, and hate the idea of dragging themselves down with prime material-originating alphabets or using that vile Celestial.)

Regardless, though, what are your thoughts? Is the whole thing just too complicated and time-consuming to really worry about? Should a DM just tell players who can't speak the language and haven't cast comprehend languages, "it looks like a bunch of gibberish," rather than actually showing them a page full of (to them) gibberish? It'd be less atmospheric, but less time-consuming too. Or if it's worthwhile, what alphabets would you use for celestial, infernal, druidic, and draconic? Or, for that matter, if you don't like the idea of ripping off ol' JRR, elven or dwarven?
Herecgunina
12-30-05, 08:44 PM I design my alphabets myself, using real world and non-real-world inspirations.

Check out Omniglot, (http://www.omniglot.com) for instance.

My own alphabet of the celestials is based on the 'real' alphabet of the angels found in the Key of Solomon (http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/kos/kos61.htm)

EDIT:

As far as being a waste of time - I don't think it is. For me, it's part of the fun to do crazy things like design alphabets and write things in them. Players surely will appreciate it (and if they don't, you need new players. ;))

My one question, however, is how do you accomplish the actual writing of (for instance) a celestial text? I'm presuming that your Sanskrit isn't quite up to the level of prose composition. Do you just do your best to transliterate the English sounds into Sanskrit letters, faking it when you have to represent a "th" or "z" or something else that Sanskrit doesn't have? Or do you just write whatever looks most pretty?
Herecgunina
12-30-05, 09:34 PM While we're on the subject, another good website is AncientScripts (http://www.ancientscripts.com). There was a post a while back on the Campaign Workshop forum on this very subject...
Vangerdahast
12-30-05, 10:40 PM In the FRCS you get some alphabets; not Draconic, Infernal or Celestial tough.
Edymnion
12-30-05, 10:52 PM I make Draconic look very much like cuneiform.
Cuneiform was made to be enscribed into clay tablets with reeds, and then harden. Hence, it was mainly made of straight lines which were easy to drag through the clay.

I envision that the draconic language first appeared in their own caves, where they would scratch things into the stone with their claws. Meaning that they would likely also have a lot of straight lines and the like in their writing, because its really hard to do fancy sweeping curls when you're etching. That sort of writing only really came around with the invention of ink and paper, before that, letters were simple because they took a lot of effort to make.

And since draconic is so old, I think cuneiform is a perfect inspiration source for it.
JulesCARV
12-31-05, 01:30 AM I haven't done this, but I expect I'd write what looks pretty, and hope no players secretly know real Sanskrit (or Arabic, or Cuneiform, or Korean). Halfling and Gnoll for players who don't know it presents an interesting case -- it would still be gibberish, but it would use the Latin alphabet. So it can't be totally unpronouncable stuff like "gjlkkasaieuoyngjm mrtlouaui grjlk" or anything like that.

Very interesting Vangerdahast. I'll have to check out the FRCS sometime, then.
Bob Loblaw
12-31-05, 02:05 AM At one point I had downloaded the Predator (http://members.iinet.net.au/~jaherne/thehunted/downloads/index.php) font and used it. I thought it looked like the dragon had been using its claws to write. I even had the dragon carve scrolls on the walls of its home.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-31-05, 02:34 AM I make Draconic look very much like cuneiform.See I always picture Draconic as more of a Chinese-like ideographic language (think an alphabet of 32,000+ dragonmarks) because they'd have access to magic innately and could use permanent illusion spells or even prestidigitation to create whatever shape symbols they wanted. The first magical writings would probably be in Draconic.
NinjaE
12-31-05, 07:48 AM I seem to recall Urban Arcana dealing with this.

Here's what it says:

Celestial: Elegant in its simplicity and purity.

Draconic: Florid, powerful alphabet.

Dwarven: Similar to norse runes.

Elven: Thin, flowing freehand script with letters overlapping and curling in on themselves.

Fiendish: A jagged, powerful script.

Halfling: Makes heavy use of pictograms and lettering passingly similar in appearance to musical notes.

Undertongue: Represented by harsh lines and stark hieroglyphs. Probably similar to elven besides, as the book notes that it's a debased form of elven.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 12-30-05, 08:37 PM	I'm just wondering, for DMs who, when they give their players real-life versions of the notes that they find in game, so that they can look at them and mull them over IRL as their characters would instead of just having them described, and annoying the DM by having him describe them repeatedly when they forget what they say, how to simulate alphabets besides common (which is, presumably, simulated at the common real life language of the players and DM, usually English). For a PC who knows, say, Draconic, of course, you might hand the player a note written in English, but it would be neat if a player who didn't know Draconic picked it up and looked at it, thinking, "what is this gibberish?" and then, when, say, the player casts "comprehend languages," you hand her the real (English) version of the note. For Dwarven and Elven, presumably, one might go with the Tolkien alphabets, with Dwarven looking like nordic runes and elven looking like... well, you know. With the Latin alphabet being Common, and Dwarven and Elven addressed, that leaves the Druidic, Draconic, Infernal, and Celestial alphabets to be addressed. What are your ideas? All of this assumes, by the way, that your characters won't actually know any languages that use the alphabets, so that you can just write gibberish and say that it's indecipherable. I'd go with Druidic being some kind of Cuneiform, just because all those triangles seem to coney the sort of monolithic, primitive cultural "style" I think fits druids. I'll say Celestial might be Sanskrit. It looks rather elegant. Also, Latin is the liturgical language of Medeival Europe, but Latin uses, of course, the Latin alphabet, which is used today. The liturgical feel adds to the idea of Celestial as a "holy" language. Draconic might use some kind of Arabic alphabet. Somehow looks right. Also, it's the alphabet of Ignan, and the Plane of Fire, I think, is supposed to have a sorta Arabian style. Infernal... we'd want a very orderly, rule-bound alphabet. I'd go with Hangul. No offense to Koreans! It's not that Hangul is evil: it's that it was designed very self-consciously by a king (Sejong the Great) and maybe a small team of other people, with very rigid rules, in contrast to the more organic, haphazard systems of other alphabets, which seems to fit the style of the Baatezu, who are, after all, supposed to be almost as lawful as the Modrons. (One wonders -- what language do the Modrons and Slaadi use? Well, maybe the Modrons talk in binary, and the Slaadi start their messages writing in Celestial, switch to Goblin in the middle of their messages, and then finish off in Druidic, with the subject of their writing fluctuating even more erratically than their language. Tanar'ri probably hate the fact that they use the Infernal alphabet, but they can't afford to be as chaotic and unfocussed as the Slaadi, because the Baatezu would start winning the Blood War, and hate the idea of dragging themselves down with prime material-originating alphabets or using that vile Celestial.) Regardless, though, what are your thoughts? Is the whole thing just too complicated and time-consuming to really worry about? Should a DM just tell players who can't speak the language and haven't cast comprehend languages, "it looks like a bunch of gibberish," rather than actually showing them a page full of (to them) gibberish? It'd be less atmospheric, but less time-consuming too. Or if it's worthwhile, what alphabets would you use for celestial, infernal, druidic, and draconic? Or, for that matter, if you don't like the idea of ripping off ol' JRR, elven or dwarven?
Herecgunina 12-30-05, 08:44 PM	I design my alphabets myself, using real world and non-real-world inspirations. Check out Omniglot, (http://www.omniglot.com) for instance. My own alphabet of the celestials is based on the 'real' alphabet of the angels found in the Key of Solomon (http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/kos/kos61.htm) EDIT: As far as being a waste of time - I don't think it is. For me, it's part of the fun to do crazy things like design alphabets and write things in them. Players surely will appreciate it (and if they don't, you need new players. ;)) My one question, however, is how do you accomplish the actual writing of (for instance) a celestial text? I'm presuming that your Sanskrit isn't quite up to the level of prose composition. Do you just do your best to transliterate the English sounds into Sanskrit letters, faking it when you have to represent a "th" or "z" or something else that Sanskrit doesn't have? Or do you just write whatever looks most pretty?
Herecgunina 12-30-05, 09:34 PM	While we're on the subject, another good website is AncientScripts (http://www.ancientscripts.com). There was a post a while back on the Campaign Workshop forum on this very subject...
Vangerdahast 12-30-05, 10:40 PM	In the FRCS you get some alphabets; not Draconic, Infernal or Celestial tough.
Edymnion 12-30-05, 10:52 PM	I make Draconic look very much like cuneiform. Cuneiform was made to be enscribed into clay tablets with reeds, and then harden. Hence, it was mainly made of straight lines which were easy to drag through the clay. I envision that the draconic language first appeared in their own caves, where they would scratch things into the stone with their claws. Meaning that they would likely also have a lot of straight lines and the like in their writing, because its really hard to do fancy sweeping curls when you're etching. That sort of writing only really came around with the invention of ink and paper, before that, letters were simple because they took a lot of effort to make. And since draconic is so old, I think cuneiform is a perfect inspiration source for it.
JulesCARV 12-31-05, 01:30 AM	I haven't done this, but I expect I'd write what looks pretty, and hope no players secretly know real Sanskrit (or Arabic, or Cuneiform, or Korean). Halfling and Gnoll for players who don't know it presents an interesting case -- it would still be gibberish, but it would use the Latin alphabet. So it can't be totally unpronouncable stuff like "gjlkkasaieuoyngjm mrtlouaui grjlk" or anything like that. Very interesting Vangerdahast. I'll have to check out the FRCS sometime, then.
Bob Loblaw 12-31-05, 02:05 AM	At one point I had downloaded the Predator (http://members.iinet.net.au/~jaherne/thehunted/downloads/index.php) font and used it. I thought it looked like the dragon had been using its claws to write. I even had the dragon carve scrolls on the walls of its home.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-31-05, 02:34 AM	I make Draconic look very much like cuneiform.See I always picture Draconic as more of a Chinese-like ideographic language (think an alphabet of 32,000+ dragonmarks) because they'd have access to magic innately and could use permanent illusion spells or even prestidigitation to create whatever shape symbols they wanted. The first magical writings would probably be in Draconic.
NinjaE 12-31-05, 07:48 AM	I seem to recall Urban Arcana dealing with this. Here's what it says: Celestial: Elegant in its simplicity and purity. Draconic: Florid, powerful alphabet. Dwarven: Similar to norse runes. Elven: Thin, flowing freehand script with letters overlapping and curling in on themselves. Fiendish: A jagged, powerful script. Halfling: Makes heavy use of pictograms and lettering passingly similar in appearance to musical notes. Undertongue: Represented by harsh lines and stark hieroglyphs. Probably similar to elven besides, as the book notes that it's a debased form of elven.