Altering D&D With Novel Magic System: Innately Thematic Flexible Casting For All [Archive] - Wizards Community

Altering D&D With Novel Magic System: Innately Thematic Flexible Casting For All [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Squangos
09-13-06, 05:01 PM It is my birthday at the time of posting this, yet I'm giving you a present… So be thankful and don't complain until I've gone home, OK?

Under the current Vancian system, most people can agree that the basic party consists of four members: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard. These four represent the main requirements for a standard sort of dungeon crawl: Divine magic, Fighting, Skill Usage, Arcane Magic.
However, they can also be listed as: Magic, Feats, Skills, Magic. While feats and skills synergize repeatedly (Power Attack and Shock Trooper, Jump and Tumble, Skill Focus (Survival) and Survival and Track), Magic doesn't really synergize generally (Metamagic and Spelltouched Feats, the old Scry skill and spells like Balancing Lorecall, a couple of spells like Arcane Mark with Drawmij's Instant Summons).
Not only that, but the number of feats and spells have increased at least one or two orders of magnitude more than the number of skills, when you have at least an order of magnitude more skill points than feat slots!

After seeing the interesting Complex Skill Checks and Epic Spell Development options and barely - if at all - thinking about any of the above statements, I came up with the Squangostic Magic System below (feel very free to rename it as you like; even I think the name is dumb).
I think it can solve many of the current problems with magic replacing skills and swordplay at higher levels, but then I have the utopian image in my head while you have mad rambling text to struggle through.
If you say it's derivative of other works, know I only browsed through other examples on the Wizards of the Coast boards half-way through the work. That is why I cover Spell Focuses and Material Components.
If you say it isn't original enough, I'll come up with bizarre ideas until a Phantasmal Killeresque effect occurs, Target: You.
If you say anything at all, give a reason. "Better to be a speed-bump than roadkill", as the proverb goes. The first reply to this is currently a fine example of roadkill, something you just run over without really paying much attention to or even giving a second glance.
If you say that this looks amazingly unfinished or unpolished, then… well… it is. I admit that. However, when I'm done it should have the "crunch" and "fluff" of candy floss, divinely spun and moistened by the tears of attractive women.
If you say it isn't D&D-like, then I agree, it isn't. Do most people think that's a bad thing? Should I have something like spell slots?

Here is the method which you use to come up with spells. It's a bit more well-defined than "Do whatever, compare to other spells to determine level", but I hope than offends no-one. It also allows "Spontaneous casters" to be really spontaneous. Expect stuff like this:
Sorceror: Hmm… I think I'll make the shadows cast by the plates of its armour explode. 14d8 arcane damage, close range touch attack, no saving throw, no spell resistance… 5 DC 25 checks.
Five Rolls Later…
DM: The Doppelganger Blackguard is now unarmoured. Which means I'll have to create a new boss enemy soon…

Spell Creation:
1a). Choose the Type Rudiments you want to use. Who the spell will effect, what damage it will do, etc.
1b). Choose the Function Rudiments you want to use. What the spell will do to the target.
1c). Choose the Form Rudiments you want to use. The way the spell develops over time.
1d). Choose any Misc. Rudiments you want to use. Anything else.
2). Add the like DCs together to determine the DC for each check.
3?). Use the most common Range, Saving Throw, Target, etc. from all the Rudiments used unless specified (Penetrator Rudiment, etc.). Possibly pointless if each Rudiment covers only a few salient categories (Damage Rudiment only affecting Saving Throw and Spell Resistance).

+2 to one check for -1 on another check; this can be used to increase or decrease the number of checks.
Maximum number of checks equal to average of mental ability scores rounded up? Minimum check DC = 10? Must be able to avoid hundreds of DC 2 checks, unless the probability of success in that case isn't much greater.
Buy off DC with XP?
Spell points to spend on spell DCs?

Checks:
Skill checks.
Save checks (double base save to check? Near-equivalent to skill checks, though harder to increase).
Attack checks (near-equivalent to skill checks in the case of Fighters and the like).
Other checks? Please do tell if I forgot any.

If any d20 roll is a natural 1, the spell fails, but keep rolling; any additional ones make very bad things happen. Death is about a mid-point.
Increase saving throw DC and caster level by one per natural 20 on a d20 roll.

Inexpensive Spell Components:
+1 to one check?

Expensive Spell Components:
Store successes achieved during down-time?
Substitute skills used?
Substitute ability score used?
Use unknown Rudiment?

Spell Focus:
Take 10 on one roll?
One re-roll?

Spell Completion:
?

Spell Trigger:
?

Now to list some Rudiments. These are like the Epic Spell Seeds, Epic Spell Factors and other similar things, though they can be used to create casting methods unlike the Vancian "keeping a set of concepts to mind, then waving and shouting it away".
Examples include Dwarven Brew-Casting (which requires the drinking of special alcoholic beverages in copious amounts to cast powerful magic, though the user may end up amazingly drunk if things go wrong), Dwarven-Forged Magic (which focuses magic through various finely crafted metallic objects to form specific spell effects), Carved Flesh Transmutations (that involves the Truenames of what the creature currently is and will be, written on the target using various torturous methods), Reality Warps As Mind (unreliable drug-based casting that can summon pink elephants instead of create a Fireball)…
Right now, there will be as many Rudiments as possible, before I combine them together. The Rudiments in bold are Bloodtype rudiments, which may become a major part of the Squangostic Sorceror.

Type Rudiments: Check Used: Effect: Rough DC:
Acid: ? Craft (Alchemy)? Acid protection/damage/? 10?
Cold: ? ? Cold protection/damage/creature/? 10?
Electricty: ? ? Electricity protection/damage/? 10?
Fire: Produce Flame. Craft (Alchemy)? Fire protection/damage/creature/? 10?
Sonic: ? Perform (song)? Sonic protection/damage/music/? 12?
Air: ? ? Air creature/movement? ?
Earth: ? ? Earth creature/movement? ?
Water: ? Swim? Water creature/? ?
Force: ? ? Force protection/damage/objects/? 10?
Untyped: ? Spellcraft? Divine/Arcane damage sources/? 15?
Planar: ? Know (Religion)? Outsiders/? 15?
Past: ? Know (History)? ? ?
Beast: ? Handle Animal? Animal ? ?
Plant: ? ? ? ?
Blade: ? ? Weapon enhancement/? ?
Silence: ? Move Silently? No verbal component/block sounds ?
Monster: ? ? ? 20?
Shadow: ? ? ? ?
Poison: ? Fortitude Save Ability damage? ?
Dragon: ? Know (Arcana) Energy effects, breath effects, etc. ?
Demon: ? Know (Planes) Growing horns, summoning demons, etc. ?

Function Rudiments: Check Used: Effect: Rough DC:

Detect: ? Search? Sense Motive? ? ?
Damage: ? Spellcraft? ? ?
Defense: ? ? ? ?
Healing: ? Heal? ? ?
Summon: ? ? ? ?
Change: ? ? ? ?
Charm: ? Diplomacy? ? ?
Dominate: ? Will Save ? ?

Form Rudiments: Check Used: Effect: Rough DC:

Aligned: ? ? Good/evil/lawful/chaotic creatures/? 10?
Chain: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5
Sphere: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5
Line: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5
Cone: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5
Cylinder: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5
Ray: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5
Burst: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5
Mass: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5

Misc. Rudiments: Check Used: Effect: Rough DC:

Delay: ? ? ? 5?
Penetrator: ? Bluff? Ignore spell resistance 15?
Quicken: Reflex Save? Cast as a swift action 8?

Spell Level: Successes: Rough DC Total Average:
0 1? 10+2+4 = 16
1 2? 10+2+4 = 16
2 3? 10+3+6 = 19
3 4? 10+3+8 = 21
4 5? 10+3+10 = 23
5 6? 10+3+12 = 25
6 7? 10+4+14 = 28
7 8? 10+4+16 = 30
8 9? 10+4+18 = 32
9 10? 10+4+20 = 34

OK, I'll try to give a couple of sample Rudiments. I planned to have a number of these done, but… I'm pretty lazy, so even these examples are poor.

Fire

Evocation [Fire]
DC: Craft (Alchemy) 10?
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You draw Fire energy from your surroundings, which is immediately replaced from the Elemental Plane of Fire. This energy appears as flames as bright as a torch in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.

In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves.

Spells made with the Fire Rudiment do not function underwater, unless the Steam Rudiment is also applied.

Damage

DC: Spellcraft ?
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

For each extra die of damage, increase the DC by 2.
For each increase in die size, increase the DC by 5?

Bard: Composing for the most part, but with some improv. work on the fly. (If I change the Bard into a purely supportive class, they could have "gigs", casting a set list of spells and getting more benefits for less cost or making casting easier for each previous success…)
Cleric: Might change the Cleric for my Plane-Channeling version.
Druid: Grows her spells in responce to stimuli. Contingent-style casting beyond player control?
Paladin: Receives divine power and focuses it into his sword, his shield, his mount, his allies, his enemies…
Ranger: Might go non-spellcasting. If not, channels animal energy to be a better predator.
Sorceror: Has access to only a few Type Rudiments, though I'm thinking he has special Bloodline ones that are broader and thematic.
Wizard: Can access all Rudiments, though the DCs are higher for him because he has to go through all the calculations to reach the desired result. This also means his spells are pretty much fixed.

Congratulations if you read all the way down to here and found the idea of this system interesting! Especially so if you did it in one sitting!
I promise to improve the formatting at some point.
Ashok_Lal
09-13-06, 07:26 PM ???????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????
Izodor_Shadowcaster
09-14-06, 03:34 PM 1) GREAT JOB!

2) I always dreamed of a system with no spells at all. NO SPELLS! Just MAGIC which is shaped your own way.

3) GREAT IDEA

4) I do not get how it could be balanced and I do not think it is ready yet, but GREAT JOB!

5) WELL DONE,
Vanigo
09-15-06, 01:30 AM If you're going to make changes this radical, I think you need to throw away the existing caster classes and make new ones. You need one or two mage classes with lots of skill points, an expert-style "pick N skills to be class skills" deal (plus spellcraft and a couple other always-on ones), and, ideally, some nice class features. The existing caster classes don't have anywhere near the skills they'd need to function with a system like this.

You also need much more flexible rudiments. I mean, if the Fire rudiment is going to cover everything from continual flame to meteor swarm (which is is, if I understand you at all correctly), you need to either make it entirely free-form or give it a half-dozen or so options. You also need more modifiers - some way to scale up effects, at the very least, and probably some range-boosters, duration-boosters, and that kind of thing.
You need some way to limit spells/day. Cumulative penalties, perhaps?
Squangos
09-15-06, 09:52 AM If you're going to make changes this radical, I think you need to throw away the existing caster classes and make new ones. You need one or two mage classes with lots of skill points, an expert-style "pick N skills to be class skills" deal (plus spellcraft and a couple other always-on ones), and, ideally, some nice class features. The existing caster classes don't have anywhere near the skills they'd need to function with a system like this.

You also need much more flexible rudiments. I mean, if the Fire rudiment is going to cover everything from continual flame to meteor swarm (which is is, if I understand you at all correctly), you need to either make it entirely free-form or give it a half-dozen or so options. You also need more modifiers - some way to scale up effects, at the very least, and probably some range-boosters, duration-boosters, and that kind of thing.
You need some way to limit spells/day. Cumulative penalties, perhaps?
They are a bit radical, aren't they? Think I should tone it down a bit? Or maybe show how it can be Vancian-like if you put in certain variables I can't think of right now?

Originally, the idea was to have something like Epic Spell Development at all levels, but then I added in the other stuff… It's also partially in responce to magic having instant hits while skill use and combat doesn't.

Well, there is the lots of skills route… But you also have the "you have effective ranks in X equal to half your ranks in Y, rounded up" abilities route and the big bonuses to a few skills route, which may suit a Sorceror-type better, especially with Bloodline Rudiments that cover several thematic things (breath attacks, energy-based magc, flying and big slashy attacks that look like claws and fangs being one example set for the Year of Dragons).

Foolish me! I completely forgot my dislike for the current level-based limit on skill ranks, which had a possible solution of permanent bonuses given for multiple critical successes in a row (letting a smith who forged greatswords for over 40 years be really great at forging greatswords, without needing to kill an army or two to reach that mastery). Applied to this magic system, spellcasters would get more proficient with their powers through breakthroughs in understanding after weeks of practice.

You could also rely on other characters to prepare parts of your spells for you (Bard giving a Wizard something charismatic enough to help dominate monster), though that may be a bit messy…

Rudiment flexibility, at the moment, is less important to me than figuring out how to cover all the bases (Storm of Vengeance, anyone? That'll probably use a Form Rudiment that'll get abused…). Once that's done, I'll reduce it down to something thicker with a richer taste (Fire Rudiment is currently similar to Earth and Sonic, which is a bit of a strain. Poor fire. Maybe I'll add in a Void element and pair off energy damage with element).
I even toyed with the idea of having different strengths of each Rudiment, going from an Ember Rudiment up to an Inferno Rudiment, for example… But that wouldn't work out at all.

As for limiting spells per day… Is one of the main problems right now, isn't it? Might use something like Truename Magic's cumulative DC increase Law of Resistance to make subsequent checks in an encounter more difficult (possibility to let spellcasters go all day so the adventure doesn't end; seeing as the Fighter could now use some combat-based magic himself if he wanted to, the idea may be more internally balanced than one would think). That, or limit the amount of spells based on skill ranks, like Epic Spells are.
Something serious enough to stop them casting more than one or two of their most powerful spells in any given combat… though that would penalise them in "boss fights"…

I'll add in some more modifiers like you suggested; should've put them in first time round, really. Thanks for the imput, Vanigo!
FeceMan
09-15-06, 03:10 PM I like Shadowrun's magic system. (Haven't used it, just after looking through it.) This reminds me of it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Squangos 09-13-06, 05:01 PM	It is my birthday at the time of posting this, yet I'm giving you a present… So be thankful and don't complain until I've gone home, OK? Under the current Vancian system, most people can agree that the basic party consists of four members: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard. These four represent the main requirements for a standard sort of dungeon crawl: Divine magic, Fighting, Skill Usage, Arcane Magic. However, they can also be listed as: Magic, Feats, Skills, Magic. While feats and skills synergize repeatedly (Power Attack and Shock Trooper, Jump and Tumble, Skill Focus (Survival) and Survival and Track), Magic doesn't really synergize generally (Metamagic and Spelltouched Feats, the old Scry skill and spells like Balancing Lorecall, a couple of spells like Arcane Mark with Drawmij's Instant Summons). Not only that, but the number of feats and spells have increased at least one or two orders of magnitude more than the number of skills, when you have at least an order of magnitude more skill points than feat slots! After seeing the interesting Complex Skill Checks and Epic Spell Development options and barely - if at all - thinking about any of the above statements, I came up with the Squangostic Magic System below (feel very free to rename it as you like; even I think the name is dumb). I think it can solve many of the current problems with magic replacing skills and swordplay at higher levels, but then I have the utopian image in my head while you have mad rambling text to struggle through. If you say it's derivative of other works, know I only browsed through other examples on the Wizards of the Coast boards half-way through the work. That is why I cover Spell Focuses and Material Components. If you say it isn't original enough, I'll come up with bizarre ideas until a Phantasmal Killeresque effect occurs, Target: You. If you say anything at all, give a reason. "Better to be a speed-bump than roadkill", as the proverb goes. The first reply to this is currently a fine example of roadkill, something you just run over without really paying much attention to or even giving a second glance. If you say that this looks amazingly unfinished or unpolished, then… well… it is. I admit that. However, when I'm done it should have the "crunch" and "fluff" of candy floss, divinely spun and moistened by the tears of attractive women. If you say it isn't D&D-like, then I agree, it isn't. Do most people think that's a bad thing? Should I have something like spell slots? Here is the method which you use to come up with spells. It's a bit more well-defined than "Do whatever, compare to other spells to determine level", but I hope than offends no-one. It also allows "Spontaneous casters" to be really spontaneous. Expect stuff like this: Sorceror: Hmm… I think I'll make the shadows cast by the plates of its armour explode. 14d8 arcane damage, close range touch attack, no saving throw, no spell resistance… 5 DC 25 checks. Five Rolls Later… DM: The Doppelganger Blackguard is now unarmoured. Which means I'll have to create a new boss enemy soon… Spell Creation: 1a). Choose the Type Rudiments you want to use. Who the spell will effect, what damage it will do, etc. 1b). Choose the Function Rudiments you want to use. What the spell will do to the target. 1c). Choose the Form Rudiments you want to use. The way the spell develops over time. 1d). Choose any Misc. Rudiments you want to use. Anything else. 2). Add the like DCs together to determine the DC for each check. 3?). Use the most common Range, Saving Throw, Target, etc. from all the Rudiments used unless specified (Penetrator Rudiment, etc.). Possibly pointless if each Rudiment covers only a few salient categories (Damage Rudiment only affecting Saving Throw and Spell Resistance). +2 to one check for -1 on another check; this can be used to increase or decrease the number of checks. Maximum number of checks equal to average of mental ability scores rounded up? Minimum check DC = 10? Must be able to avoid hundreds of DC 2 checks, unless the probability of success in that case isn't much greater. Buy off DC with XP? Spell points to spend on spell DCs? Checks: Skill checks. Save checks (double base save to check? Near-equivalent to skill checks, though harder to increase). Attack checks (near-equivalent to skill checks in the case of Fighters and the like). Other checks? Please do tell if I forgot any. If any d20 roll is a natural 1, the spell fails, but keep rolling; any additional ones make very bad things happen. Death is about a mid-point. Increase saving throw DC and caster level by one per natural 20 on a d20 roll. Inexpensive Spell Components: +1 to one check? Expensive Spell Components: Store successes achieved during down-time? Substitute skills used? Substitute ability score used? Use unknown Rudiment? Spell Focus: Take 10 on one roll? One re-roll? Spell Completion: ? Spell Trigger: ? Now to list some Rudiments. These are like the Epic Spell Seeds, Epic Spell Factors and other similar things, though they can be used to create casting methods unlike the Vancian "keeping a set of concepts to mind, then waving and shouting it away". Examples include Dwarven Brew-Casting (which requires the drinking of special alcoholic beverages in copious amounts to cast powerful magic, though the user may end up amazingly drunk if things go wrong), Dwarven-Forged Magic (which focuses magic through various finely crafted metallic objects to form specific spell effects), Carved Flesh Transmutations (that involves the Truenames of what the creature currently is and will be, written on the target using various torturous methods), Reality Warps As Mind (unreliable drug-based casting that can summon pink elephants instead of create a Fireball)… Right now, there will be as many Rudiments as possible, before I combine them together. The Rudiments in bold are Bloodtype rudiments, which may become a major part of the Squangostic Sorceror. Type Rudiments: Check Used: Effect: Rough DC: Acid: ? Craft (Alchemy)? Acid protection/damage/? 10? Cold: ? ? Cold protection/damage/creature/? 10? Electricty: ? ? Electricity protection/damage/? 10? Fire: Produce Flame. Craft (Alchemy)? Fire protection/damage/creature/? 10? Sonic: ? Perform (song)? Sonic protection/damage/music/? 12? Air: ? ? Air creature/movement? ? Earth: ? ? Earth creature/movement? ? Water: ? Swim? Water creature/? ? Force: ? ? Force protection/damage/objects/? 10? Untyped: ? Spellcraft? Divine/Arcane damage sources/? 15? Planar: ? Know (Religion)? Outsiders/? 15? Past: ? Know (History)? ? ? Beast: ? Handle Animal? Animal ? ? Plant: ? ? ? ? Blade: ? ? Weapon enhancement/? ? Silence: ? Move Silently? No verbal component/block sounds ? Monster: ? ? ? 20? Shadow: ? ? ? ? Poison: ? Fortitude Save Ability damage? ? Dragon: ? Know (Arcana) Energy effects, breath effects, etc. ? Demon: ? Know (Planes) Growing horns, summoning demons, etc. ? Function Rudiments: Check Used: Effect: Rough DC: Detect: ? Search? Sense Motive? ? ? Damage: ? Spellcraft? ? ? Defense: ? ? ? ? Healing: ? Heal? ? ? Summon: ? ? ? ? Change: ? ? ? ? Charm: ? Diplomacy? ? ? Dominate: ? Will Save ? ? Form Rudiments: Check Used: Effect: Rough DC: Aligned: ? ? Good/evil/lawful/chaotic creatures/? 10? Chain: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5 Sphere: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5 Line: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5 Cone: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5 Cylinder: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5 Ray: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5 Burst: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5 Mass: ? Spellcraft? ? 1-5 Misc. Rudiments: Check Used: Effect: Rough DC: Delay: ? ? ? 5? Penetrator: ? Bluff? Ignore spell resistance 15? Quicken: Reflex Save? Cast as a swift action 8? Spell Level: Successes: Rough DC Total Average: 0 1? 10+2+4 = 16 1 2? 10+2+4 = 16 2 3? 10+3+6 = 19 3 4? 10+3+8 = 21 4 5? 10+3+10 = 23 5 6? 10+3+12 = 25 6 7? 10+4+14 = 28 7 8? 10+4+16 = 30 8 9? 10+4+18 = 32 9 10? 10+4+20 = 34 OK, I'll try to give a couple of sample Rudiments. I planned to have a number of these done, but… I'm pretty lazy, so even these examples are poor. Fire Evocation [Fire] DC: Craft (Alchemy) 10? Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 0 ft. Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes You draw Fire energy from your surroundings, which is immediately replaced from the Elemental Plane of Fire. This energy appears as flames as bright as a torch in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment. In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves. Spells made with the Fire Rudiment do not function underwater, unless the Steam Rudiment is also applied. Damage DC: Spellcraft ? Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 0 ft. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: Yes For each extra die of damage, increase the DC by 2. For each increase in die size, increase the DC by 5? Bard: Composing for the most part, but with some improv. work on the fly. (If I change the Bard into a purely supportive class, they could have "gigs", casting a set list of spells and getting more benefits for less cost or making casting easier for each previous success…) Cleric: Might change the Cleric for my Plane-Channeling version. Druid: Grows her spells in responce to stimuli. Contingent-style casting beyond player control? Paladin: Receives divine power and focuses it into his sword, his shield, his mount, his allies, his enemies… Ranger: Might go non-spellcasting. If not, channels animal energy to be a better predator. Sorceror: Has access to only a few Type Rudiments, though I'm thinking he has special Bloodline ones that are broader and thematic. Wizard: Can access all Rudiments, though the DCs are higher for him because he has to go through all the calculations to reach the desired result. This also means his spells are pretty much fixed. Congratulations if you read all the way down to here and found the idea of this system interesting! Especially so if you did it in one sitting! I promise to improve the formatting at some point.
Ashok_Lal 09-13-06, 07:26 PM	???????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????
Izodor_Shadowcaster 09-14-06, 03:34 PM	1) GREAT JOB! 2) I always dreamed of a system with no spells at all. NO SPELLS! Just MAGIC which is shaped your own way. 3) GREAT IDEA 4) I do not get how it could be balanced and I do not think it is ready yet, but GREAT JOB! 5) WELL DONE,
Vanigo 09-15-06, 01:30 AM	If you're going to make changes this radical, I think you need to throw away the existing caster classes and make new ones. You need one or two mage classes with lots of skill points, an expert-style "pick N skills to be class skills" deal (plus spellcraft and a couple other always-on ones), and, ideally, some nice class features. The existing caster classes don't have anywhere near the skills they'd need to function with a system like this. You also need much more flexible rudiments. I mean, if the Fire rudiment is going to cover everything from continual flame to meteor swarm (which is is, if I understand you at all correctly), you need to either make it entirely free-form or give it a half-dozen or so options. You also need more modifiers - some way to scale up effects, at the very least, and probably some range-boosters, duration-boosters, and that kind of thing. You need some way to limit spells/day. Cumulative penalties, perhaps?
Squangos 09-15-06, 09:52 AM	If you're going to make changes this radical, I think you need to throw away the existing caster classes and make new ones. You need one or two mage classes with lots of skill points, an expert-style "pick N skills to be class skills" deal (plus spellcraft and a couple other always-on ones), and, ideally, some nice class features. The existing caster classes don't have anywhere near the skills they'd need to function with a system like this. You also need much more flexible rudiments. I mean, if the Fire rudiment is going to cover everything from continual flame to meteor swarm (which is is, if I understand you at all correctly), you need to either make it entirely free-form or give it a half-dozen or so options. You also need more modifiers - some way to scale up effects, at the very least, and probably some range-boosters, duration-boosters, and that kind of thing. You need some way to limit spells/day. Cumulative penalties, perhaps? They are a bit radical, aren't they? Think I should tone it down a bit? Or maybe show how it can be Vancian-like if you put in certain variables I can't think of right now? Originally, the idea was to have something like Epic Spell Development at all levels, but then I added in the other stuff… It's also partially in responce to magic having instant hits while skill use and combat doesn't. Well, there is the lots of skills route… But you also have the "you have effective ranks in X equal to half your ranks in Y, rounded up" abilities route and the big bonuses to a few skills route, which may suit a Sorceror-type better, especially with Bloodline Rudiments that cover several thematic things (breath attacks, energy-based magc, flying and big slashy attacks that look like claws and fangs being one example set for the Year of Dragons). Foolish me! I completely forgot my dislike for the current level-based limit on skill ranks, which had a possible solution of permanent bonuses given for multiple critical successes in a row (letting a smith who forged greatswords for over 40 years be really great at forging greatswords, without needing to kill an army or two to reach that mastery). Applied to this magic system, spellcasters would get more proficient with their powers through breakthroughs in understanding after weeks of practice. You could also rely on other characters to prepare parts of your spells for you (Bard giving a Wizard something charismatic enough to help dominate monster), though that may be a bit messy… Rudiment flexibility, at the moment, is less important to me than figuring out how to cover all the bases (Storm of Vengeance, anyone? That'll probably use a Form Rudiment that'll get abused…). Once that's done, I'll reduce it down to something thicker with a richer taste (Fire Rudiment is currently similar to Earth and Sonic, which is a bit of a strain. Poor fire. Maybe I'll add in a Void element and pair off energy damage with element). I even toyed with the idea of having different strengths of each Rudiment, going from an Ember Rudiment up to an Inferno Rudiment, for example… But that wouldn't work out at all. As for limiting spells per day… Is one of the main problems right now, isn't it? Might use something like Truename Magic's cumulative DC increase Law of Resistance to make subsequent checks in an encounter more difficult (possibility to let spellcasters go all day so the adventure doesn't end; seeing as the Fighter could now use some combat-based magic himself if he wanted to, the idea may be more internally balanced than one would think). That, or limit the amount of spells based on skill ranks, like Epic Spells are. Something serious enough to stop them casting more than one or two of their most powerful spells in any given combat… though that would penalise them in "boss fights"… I'll add in some more modifiers like you suggested; should've put them in first time round, really. Thanks for the imput, Vanigo!
FeceMan 09-15-06, 03:10 PM	I like Shadowrun's magic system. (Haven't used it, just after looking through it.) This reminds me of it.