Alternate arcane spell system. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate arcane spell system. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dasien
07-01-04, 05:38 PM I have been thinking about drastically changing the way arcane casters, particulalry Wizards, learn spells.

I am considering giving a "research cost" for all the arcane spells. Higher level spells cost more etc.

Each level they get a number of research points (with INT or CHA modifers) say 100 + 20 X modifier with wich to buy new spells.

Thus it will be possible for a medium level wizard to cast a high level spell but he would have become highly specialized and sacrificed a great deal of other spell knowledge.

Instead of spell slots for number of spells cast per day I will turn them into spell levels per day. So, instead of a 5th level wizard being able to cast 3 1st level, 2 2nd level and 1 3rd level he can cast a total of 10 spell levels per day in any combination he memorized assuming he has researched and learned the spell.

Basically it represents the fact that as a low level caster he must spend more time the night before studying to memorize a higher level spell.

For spells that become more powerful with levels (such as magic missile) a caster must decide which level he will cast the spell at and subtract the spell at that level.

So, a 9th level wizard with a total of 43 levels of spells for a day could memorize and cast 43 1st level missiles, or 4 9th level magic missiles & 1 7th level. Not exactly uneven when you consider the 4 9th level and the 7th level will only take 5 actions to cast while the 43 will take the wizard 43 actions to cast.

I am going to play with this for a while and maybe do the same type of thing for Divine casters. Not usre though. I like the idea for wizards because it better reflects the academic nature of the way they learn spells.

Yes, a 6th level wizard could devote himself to researching and casting a 9th level spell but he would sacrfice a great deal of other spell knowledge and devote most of his time preparing that one spell the night before he wants to cast it.

What do you guys think?
Grayson
07-01-04, 07:10 PM Seems like a horribly unbalanced and poory-thought-out way to do things to me. Sorry, but I really don't think you've looked at this closely.

So.. if I want a 10d6 fireball, I'd have to memorize it at what amounts to 10th level? How the heck is 5 magic missiles comparable to Meteor Swarm? :rolleyes:

Even dropping that bit of nonsense, it makes for a ridiculously unbalanced situation. You're counting 9th level spells as 9 "levels". You don't explain how "research points" work, but you say that a 6th level wizard can research and cast it. Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? A 7th level wizard would have 20 spell levels a day. That means he can wander around and have two Summon Monster IX's per day, lol!

"Ok guys, the hill giant is just over the hill!"
"*yawn* Ok, I summon up a Barbed Devil and tell it to go kill it."
Dasien
07-02-04, 12:57 AM I really wish I had posted this in the Dungeon Master's Guide section. I would have recieved much more constructive responses.
(If a wizo is reading this I would appreciate it if you moved it - sorry for the trouble).

Well your wizard theoretically could cast Summons IXs assuming he had spent almost all his research points to learn summon spells so that *one day* he could learn a ninth level spell.

In practice he would be forced to spend his points much more reasonably or be unable to even reach 7th level without learning spells to carry him to 7th level.

Remember that 7th level wizard would have to learn summon I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII before he could learn IX. So, yes a 7th level wizard who basically spent all his research on summoning spells could cast level IX. He would be rather one dimensional but perfectly reasonable as a character. Sure he would be very strong in one limited way but completely vulnerable in a dozen others. That is not unbalanced overall. In fact it is very concievable that an NPC wizard might choose to become so highly specialized, though an adventuring PC wizard would be ill advised to try it.

He would not be overpowered at all, sure he could handle a hill giant over the next hill (assuming he prepared the day before) but he would have a great many weaknesses due to the limited scope of his spellcasting. In addition preparing high level spells as a medium level character means you are even more vulnerable to unexpected situations because you have fewer spells prepared.

Overall, I think research points better reflect how wizards would really learn spells and it allows a great deal of role play and character development variety that is not unbalanced overall.

I have not decided the research cost of spells, or even the number of research points gained per level. However, I do not think it would be impossible to create a balanced system. I should have made it clear that a wizard would have to learn summon I before summon II or Invisibility before Greater Invisibility etc. Not sure why anyone would have assumed otherwise.
Dasien
07-02-04, 01:19 AM Originally posted by Grayson

So.. if I want a 10d6 fireball, I'd have to memorize it at what amounts to 10th level? How the heck is 5 magic missiles comparable to Meteor Swarm? :rolleyes:

Your right about the meteor storm vs magic missile (and fireball). In truth when I said it would be a 9th level spell I confused "caster level" with "spell level" (I hate it when I do that). THis is going to take some thought to deconflict. Clearly it should cost less than 9 spell levels to cast magic missile as a 9th level caster. Of course I can't have it count as one spell level either. I will work on this. It may simply require that I count each one as 1 level higher than the base level. So 5 missiles would count as a 5 spell levels. I need to read all the spells with this in mind and see if I can find a balanced system.

A 10th level wizard in the current system can cast 20 spells per day. Under this system he could cast between 4 - 43 depending which spells at which power he chose to memorize them. Overall his is not more powerful, in fact if he focused all his research on just a few very powerful spells I would say he has left himself quite vulnerable and better know exactly what is in store for him when he sets out the next morning.
Grayson
07-02-04, 02:41 PM Originally posted by Dasien
Remember that 7th level wizard would have to learn summon I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII before he could learn IX.

:confused:

That's an interesting house rule. Completely hoses Sorcerers who want to do Summoning. And Wizards that want to dabble in Summoning.

As for constructive criticism. If I was going to dismiss your idea out of hand as flat out stupid, I wouldn't have wasted so much time posting. It's an interesting idea, just not one that's remotely balanced, or well-thought out.

Your system assumes that spell power grows in a linear fashion, when it doesn't. At all. A fireball is more than 3x as powerful as a first level spell. Gate is more than 3x as powerful as that fireball.

Summon Monster IX isn't a particularily "limited" spell. Take a look at the variety of stuff you can summon, and take a look at *those* creature's abilities. Heck, if I wanted to really break your system, I'd have chosen Gate as my spell.

Or, I'd have used a high level mage as an example. Let's take a 17th level mage. Depending on his Intelligence, he's going to have around 175 spell levels. A standard wizard could cast 2 9th level spells a day, 3 if he specializes. This monstrosity under your system could, if he wanted, cast 19 9th level spells. Or heck, using about half of his spell levels, he gets 10 9th level spells. 5 times as many as a standard Wizard. :rolleyes:

Honestly, if you're confusing spell level with caster level, I'm guessing you're still relatively new to 3.x. Play the system as it is, make changes on a small scale, not a huge game-altering one.
Vaxalon
07-02-04, 04:33 PM Take a look at "Elements of Magic" from E.N. Publishing:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=313&products_id=2699&

I believe you will find that it does what you want to do, AND it's a playtested, balanced system that knows what words apply to what concepts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dasien 07-01-04, 05:38 PM	I have been thinking about drastically changing the way arcane casters, particulalry Wizards, learn spells. I am considering giving a "research cost" for all the arcane spells. Higher level spells cost more etc. Each level they get a number of research points (with INT or CHA modifers) say 100 + 20 X modifier with wich to buy new spells. Thus it will be possible for a medium level wizard to cast a high level spell but he would have become highly specialized and sacrificed a great deal of other spell knowledge. Instead of spell slots for number of spells cast per day I will turn them into spell levels per day. So, instead of a 5th level wizard being able to cast 3 1st level, 2 2nd level and 1 3rd level he can cast a total of 10 spell levels per day in any combination he memorized assuming he has researched and learned the spell. Basically it represents the fact that as a low level caster he must spend more time the night before studying to memorize a higher level spell. For spells that become more powerful with levels (such as magic missile) a caster must decide which level he will cast the spell at and subtract the spell at that level. So, a 9th level wizard with a total of 43 levels of spells for a day could memorize and cast 43 1st level missiles, or 4 9th level magic missiles & 1 7th level. Not exactly uneven when you consider the 4 9th level and the 7th level will only take 5 actions to cast while the 43 will take the wizard 43 actions to cast. I am going to play with this for a while and maybe do the same type of thing for Divine casters. Not usre though. I like the idea for wizards because it better reflects the academic nature of the way they learn spells. Yes, a 6th level wizard could devote himself to researching and casting a 9th level spell but he would sacrfice a great deal of other spell knowledge and devote most of his time preparing that one spell the night before he wants to cast it. What do you guys think?
Grayson 07-01-04, 07:10 PM	Seems like a horribly unbalanced and poory-thought-out way to do things to me. Sorry, but I really don't think you've looked at this closely. So.. if I want a 10d6 fireball, I'd have to memorize it at what amounts to 10th level? How the heck is 5 magic missiles comparable to Meteor Swarm? :rolleyes: Even dropping that bit of nonsense, it makes for a ridiculously unbalanced situation. You're counting 9th level spells as 9 "levels". You don't explain how "research points" work, but you say that a 6th level wizard can research and cast it. Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? A 7th level wizard would have 20 spell levels a day. That means he can wander around and have two Summon Monster IX's per day, lol! "Ok guys, the hill giant is just over the hill!" "yawn Ok, I summon up a Barbed Devil and tell it to go kill it."
Dasien 07-02-04, 12:57 AM	I really wish I had posted this in the Dungeon Master's Guide section. I would have recieved much more constructive responses. (If a wizo is reading this I would appreciate it if you moved it - sorry for the trouble). Well your wizard theoretically could cast Summons IXs assuming he had spent almost all his research points to learn summon spells so that one day he could learn a ninth level spell. In practice he would be forced to spend his points much more reasonably or be unable to even reach 7th level without learning spells to carry him to 7th level. Remember that 7th level wizard would have to learn summon I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII before he could learn IX. So, yes a 7th level wizard who basically spent all his research on summoning spells could cast level IX. He would be rather one dimensional but perfectly reasonable as a character. Sure he would be very strong in one limited way but completely vulnerable in a dozen others. That is not unbalanced overall. In fact it is very concievable that an NPC wizard might choose to become so highly specialized, though an adventuring PC wizard would be ill advised to try it. He would not be overpowered at all, sure he could handle a hill giant over the next hill (assuming he prepared the day before) but he would have a great many weaknesses due to the limited scope of his spellcasting. In addition preparing high level spells as a medium level character means you are even more vulnerable to unexpected situations because you have fewer spells prepared. Overall, I think research points better reflect how wizards would really learn spells and it allows a great deal of role play and character development variety that is not unbalanced overall. I have not decided the research cost of spells, or even the number of research points gained per level. However, I do not think it would be impossible to create a balanced system. I should have made it clear that a wizard would have to learn summon I before summon II or Invisibility before Greater Invisibility etc. Not sure why anyone would have assumed otherwise.
Dasien 07-02-04, 01:19 AM	Originally posted by Grayson So.. if I want a 10d6 fireball, I'd have to memorize it at what amounts to 10th level? How the heck is 5 magic missiles comparable to Meteor Swarm? :rolleyes: Your right about the meteor storm vs magic missile (and fireball). In truth when I said it would be a 9th level spell I confused "caster level" with "spell level" (I hate it when I do that). THis is going to take some thought to deconflict. Clearly it should cost less than 9 spell levels to cast magic missile as a 9th level caster. Of course I can't have it count as one spell level either. I will work on this. It may simply require that I count each one as 1 level higher than the base level. So 5 missiles would count as a 5 spell levels. I need to read all the spells with this in mind and see if I can find a balanced system. A 10th level wizard in the current system can cast 20 spells per day. Under this system he could cast between 4 - 43 depending which spells at which power he chose to memorize them. Overall his is not more powerful, in fact if he focused all his research on just a few very powerful spells I would say he has left himself quite vulnerable and better know exactly what is in store for him when he sets out the next morning.
Grayson 07-02-04, 02:41 PM	Originally posted by Dasien Remember that 7th level wizard would have to learn summon I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII before he could learn IX. :confused: That's an interesting house rule. Completely hoses Sorcerers who want to do Summoning. And Wizards that want to dabble in Summoning. As for constructive criticism. If I was going to dismiss your idea out of hand as flat out stupid, I wouldn't have wasted so much time posting. It's an interesting idea, just not one that's remotely balanced, or well-thought out. Your system assumes that spell power grows in a linear fashion, when it doesn't. At all. A fireball is more than 3x as powerful as a first level spell. Gate is more than 3x as powerful as that fireball. Summon Monster IX isn't a particularily "limited" spell. Take a look at the variety of stuff you can summon, and take a look at those creature's abilities. Heck, if I wanted to really break your system, I'd have chosen Gate as my spell. Or, I'd have used a high level mage as an example. Let's take a 17th level mage. Depending on his Intelligence, he's going to have around 175 spell levels. A standard wizard could cast 2 9th level spells a day, 3 if he specializes. This monstrosity under your system could, if he wanted, cast 19 9th level spells. Or heck, using about half of his spell levels, he gets 10 9th level spells. 5 times as many as a standard Wizard. :rolleyes: Honestly, if you're confusing spell level with caster level, I'm guessing you're still relatively new to 3.x. Play the system as it is, make changes on a small scale, not a huge game-altering one.
Vaxalon 07-02-04, 04:33 PM	Take a look at "Elements of Magic" from E.N. Publishing: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=313&products_id=2699& I believe you will find that it does what you want to do, AND it's a playtested, balanced system that knows what words apply to what concepts.