Alternate Experience Tables [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Experience Tables [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Always1stToDie
12-01-07, 02:29 PM I'm we've all made house rules I'm sure. So I'm curious to know, for those of you that have done so, what changes have you made for the XP tables that still keeps your games balanced but doesn't slow the game down to a crawl.

I'm looking to make this change in our games and I'm looking for some feedback. Currently we've made a chart the adds +50% to all required XP levels until you reach level 10 where as it increases by +10% until 20th.

+50% levels 1-10
+60% (88,000) to reach level 11
+70% (112,200) to reach level 12
+80% (140,400) to reach level 13
+150% (475,000) to reach level level 20

I'm looking to compare your ideas with my own and hopefully find some way to maintain balance while making gaining a level seem more like an accomplishment than just one more level closer to larger treasure drops.
SokenzanMarauder
12-01-07, 02:52 PM Instead of increasing the XP required to level why not just decrease the XP awarded in combat (say half of the listed amount of even a quarter)? It'd save some unnecessary work on your part.
Always1stToDie
12-01-07, 04:40 PM It occurred to me to try that, but in the past it hasn't worked. My players feel that 1,000XP for 2nd level is too easy regardless of how we cut the XP for combat. We tried and didn't like it. I've cut it a 1/3rd, by 1/2 and by 2/3rds.

The basic design of the CR XP table is alright since it permits High Level PCs to gain XP from lower level monsters by increasing their numbers or making them more cunning, but 13 encounters to gain a level is just, and always has been, ignorant. That's 260 encounters (or 20 adventures, depending on how your DM runs things) geared for your level before you are a 'master' of your craft. My group is looking for a more old school experience at the table where adventuring is a career for their characters, not a a finely broken down numerical process that spoon feeds the PCs through the lower levels so they hurry up and get to 20th level where all the good treasure can be found.

They are very RP intensive group, the combat, drama, romance, swashbuckling and camaraderie are all part of the epic storyline that comprises a true RPing experience. One player wanted 20th level to be in the range of 3,000,000xp which is old school, and I'm 1/2 tempted to do it, but I feel it will greatly depreciate the value of Prestige Classes. I'm still play testing that math.

They want to work for a level, and make it feel like more of an accomplishment than ‘just another level’. They make me proud… <wipes away a forming tear>

Your feedback is appreciated by the way. Thank you.
Kamin_Majere
12-01-07, 04:48 PM Why not just do away with XP.

Level the players when you and they think a level should be given. You can keep XP for things like crafting But basically just hand out enough XP to put them midway through a level everytime you and the group desided to level up.

Its the easy way to handle it honestly. No having to screw with numbers that way at all
Sarella Starshine
12-01-07, 05:10 PM You are forgetting something though: its 13.4 encounters of a CR EQUAL to the party, per level.

As you well know, not every encounter will be equal. Some will be below the party level and yeld little to no xp, to encounters greater than the party level which will yeld more or no xp (depending on how high above the party and if the party runs/flees).

The best way for an RP-heavy group like you say your group is to have the feel of slower leveling without tweaking the xp charts is to increase the amount of encounters that are below the party. The best way is to include a bunch of RP encounters that while are great RP opportunties, are nothing more than just that. They won't give xp, or give very little.

If you just add these encounters and mix them up with encounters that do yeld more xp, and do it in such a way that your players cannot tell when in the encounter if its a 'trivial' encounter or not, it will act as a brake system.

There is no denying that the lower levels DO go faster than in 2nd or 1st ed. But, that was intentional. The idea however that faster leveling is a 'bad thing' is silly though. Faster leveling does not equal crappy characters. Crappy players do.

Almost any issue that people have with 3.5 that deals with players, characters, and the views thereof are ALWAYS player issues and not game issues. Adventuring IS a career to the characters. Always has, and always will be. All the numbers do is represent how well you do. Being stuck at lower levels for longer periods of time to satisfy some sort of silly thought process that idolizes them, is not fun (at least to me). The levels ARE earned and worked for. I mean, the only way I can see a level being 'spoon-fed' to characters and players is if the DM DOES it.

(As an interesting side note: atm, in my current group, I am having the opposite problem. I need to finish my game by the end of this year, and My players are not gaining ENOUGH exp to get them to the level I feel comfortable tossing the BBEP (big bad evil people) at them.)
Drohem
12-01-07, 05:21 PM One of the GM's of our group just gives out level x 1000 experience for each adventure. So, you level quickly at the lower levels, and then a level per every two or three adventures after that.
Always1stToDie
12-01-07, 05:59 PM Our table has had several problems with XP in the past (I currently award XP on the fly. 1st level PCs generally only get 7-15XP for a goblin instead of 100XP).

We've had a 2nd level Ranger scouting ahead and take out 6 Hobgoblins (4 with a bow, 2 in melee), since the rest of the party wasn't present for the fight he scored 900xp (CR 1/2, 150 X 6), enough to place him at 3rd level before the party had even made it to the lair of the beast they were hunting. As a result none of the other encounters during that session were of any value to him since he can only gain once level per complete story.

To solve the issue I awarded him the XP value of Hobgoblins for 2nd Edition (35 each) and moved on from there but to quote him "150xp per hobgoblin? You've gotta be kidding me."

Hence the reason I'm looking for suggestions from other DMs who've customized their campaigns in the same manner.
Seeker95
12-01-07, 07:30 PM Why not just do away with XP. [...] Level the players when you and they think a level should be given.That's what I did for my last campaign. Worked great. The only area it seemed to have an initial hitch was magic item creation. So I just changed the materials required for most items (other than potions and scrolls) and turned such endeavors into quests for the materials.
Salla
12-01-07, 07:39 PM I have yet to find anything wrong with the 3.5 XP system as presented.
CCS
12-02-07, 06:40 AM I have yet to find anything wrong with the 3.5 XP system as presented.

Other than the fact that in 3.5 you zip through levels so fast it's not even worth the time you spend adjusting character sheets between sessions?
C'mon, the last character I played advanced so fast I barely got a chance to use newly aquired lv abilities before gaining more....
mathew99
12-02-07, 06:55 AM well I'm playing FF2 right now.

You should make a sysem that levels them up based on how many levels of monster they killed.

So killing a lvl/cr 1 monster would get you 1 exp
killing a lvl 2 monster would get you 2 exp
and so on
Then make a table off of that like:

lvl 2: 30
lvl 3: 50
lvl 4: 80
lvl 5: 120
lvl 6: 170
lvl 7: 230
lvl 8: 300
lvl 9: 380
lvl 10: 470
lvl 11: 570
and so on...(your lvl X10 more points added at each lvl)

taht is also, your score goes down to 0 at each lvl up.

If you know how I got his system from FF2: DoS you get a :cookie:
because it took me a few days to calculate how it worked in the end...
I cast ire like 3000 times...
kuonji
12-02-07, 07:09 AM How long do you feel it should take to get to 20, real world time.

Our games are once a week, four hour sessions and the last big campaign we ran it took us a about 14 months of real time to level from 1 to 20. I found that to be a pretty good ammount of time and it seems to space out the progression pretty well.

Old school progression wasn't capped at 20 (at least pre-epic) like 3.5 is, and 2e was still relatively quick to get from 1st to 9th or 10th depending on your class. After 9th/10th level is when progress really slowed down, especially for some classes.

I guess it comes down to how long you want your game to last.
Seeker95
12-02-07, 08:22 AM Other than the fact that in 3.5 you zip through levels so fast it's not even worth the time you spend adjusting character sheets between sessions?That is a personal preference, and not indicative of anything wrong with the xp tables in 3.5.
C'mon, the last character I played advanced so fast I barely got a chance to use newly aquired lv abilities before gaining more....You can go 13 or 14 encounters without using your new abilities? Cause that's the pace at which the CR-EL-XP system will advance a character, assuming your DM is actually using it. This latter is a tall order, and I have read few descriptions of campaigns that fit it:

Sticking to the advancement system requires:

keeping the PC total wealth in line with recommended character levels,
using reasonable stats at the start,
creating level appropriate encounters,
playing NPC opponents with at least a hint of a survival instinct
not giving the PCs free power upgrades
selectively allowing non-core material into the game

If your DM is afraid to kill the PCs, gives them more powerful magic than the wealth-by-character-levels guidelines would allow them to afford, allows free this and early access to that ability, waives this or that requirement, and otherwise lets the PCs be more powerful than the level-appropriate opponents, advancement will come much faster. I find all of the above DM "lattitude" to be the norm, if discussions on these Boards are indicative.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Always1stToDie 12-01-07, 02:29 PM	I'm we've all made house rules I'm sure. So I'm curious to know, for those of you that have done so, what changes have you made for the XP tables that still keeps your games balanced but doesn't slow the game down to a crawl. I'm looking to make this change in our games and I'm looking for some feedback. Currently we've made a chart the adds +50% to all required XP levels until you reach level 10 where as it increases by +10% until 20th. +50% levels 1-10 +60% (88,000) to reach level 11 +70% (112,200) to reach level 12 +80% (140,400) to reach level 13 +150% (475,000) to reach level level 20 I'm looking to compare your ideas with my own and hopefully find some way to maintain balance while making gaining a level seem more like an accomplishment than just one more level closer to larger treasure drops.
SokenzanMarauder 12-01-07, 02:52 PM	Instead of increasing the XP required to level why not just decrease the XP awarded in combat (say half of the listed amount of even a quarter)? It'd save some unnecessary work on your part.
Always1stToDie 12-01-07, 04:40 PM	It occurred to me to try that, but in the past it hasn't worked. My players feel that 1,000XP for 2nd level is too easy regardless of how we cut the XP for combat. We tried and didn't like it. I've cut it a 1/3rd, by 1/2 and by 2/3rds. The basic design of the CR XP table is alright since it permits High Level PCs to gain XP from lower level monsters by increasing their numbers or making them more cunning, but 13 encounters to gain a level is just, and always has been, ignorant. That's 260 encounters (or 20 adventures, depending on how your DM runs things) geared for your level before you are a 'master' of your craft. My group is looking for a more old school experience at the table where adventuring is a career for their characters, not a a finely broken down numerical process that spoon feeds the PCs through the lower levels so they hurry up and get to 20th level where all the good treasure can be found. They are very RP intensive group, the combat, drama, romance, swashbuckling and camaraderie are all part of the epic storyline that comprises a true RPing experience. One player wanted 20th level to be in the range of 3,000,000xp which is old school, and I'm 1/2 tempted to do it, but I feel it will greatly depreciate the value of Prestige Classes. I'm still play testing that math. They want to work for a level, and make it feel like more of an accomplishment than ‘just another level’. They make me proud… <wipes away a forming tear> Your feedback is appreciated by the way. Thank you.
Kamin_Majere 12-01-07, 04:48 PM	Why not just do away with XP. Level the players when you and they think a level should be given. You can keep XP for things like crafting But basically just hand out enough XP to put them midway through a level everytime you and the group desided to level up. Its the easy way to handle it honestly. No having to screw with numbers that way at all
Sarella Starshine 12-01-07, 05:10 PM	You are forgetting something though: its 13.4 encounters of a CR EQUAL to the party, per level. As you well know, not every encounter will be equal. Some will be below the party level and yeld little to no xp, to encounters greater than the party level which will yeld more or no xp (depending on how high above the party and if the party runs/flees). The best way for an RP-heavy group like you say your group is to have the feel of slower leveling without tweaking the xp charts is to increase the amount of encounters that are below the party. The best way is to include a bunch of RP encounters that while are great RP opportunties, are nothing more than just that. They won't give xp, or give very little. If you just add these encounters and mix them up with encounters that do yeld more xp, and do it in such a way that your players cannot tell when in the encounter if its a 'trivial' encounter or not, it will act as a brake system. There is no denying that the lower levels DO go faster than in 2nd or 1st ed. But, that was intentional. The idea however that faster leveling is a 'bad thing' is silly though. Faster leveling does not equal crappy characters. Crappy players do. Almost any issue that people have with 3.5 that deals with players, characters, and the views thereof are ALWAYS player issues and not game issues. Adventuring IS a career to the characters. Always has, and always will be. All the numbers do is represent how well you do. Being stuck at lower levels for longer periods of time to satisfy some sort of silly thought process that idolizes them, is not fun (at least to me). The levels ARE earned and worked for. I mean, the only way I can see a level being 'spoon-fed' to characters and players is if the DM DOES it. (As an interesting side note: atm, in my current group, I am having the opposite problem. I need to finish my game by the end of this year, and My players are not gaining ENOUGH exp to get them to the level I feel comfortable tossing the BBEP (big bad evil people) at them.)
Drohem 12-01-07, 05:21 PM	One of the GM's of our group just gives out level x 1000 experience for each adventure. So, you level quickly at the lower levels, and then a level per every two or three adventures after that.
Always1stToDie 12-01-07, 05:59 PM	Our table has had several problems with XP in the past (I currently award XP on the fly. 1st level PCs generally only get 7-15XP for a goblin instead of 100XP). We've had a 2nd level Ranger scouting ahead and take out 6 Hobgoblins (4 with a bow, 2 in melee), since the rest of the party wasn't present for the fight he scored 900xp (CR 1/2, 150 X 6), enough to place him at 3rd level before the party had even made it to the lair of the beast they were hunting. As a result none of the other encounters during that session were of any value to him since he can only gain once level per complete story. To solve the issue I awarded him the XP value of Hobgoblins for 2nd Edition (35 each) and moved on from there but to quote him "150xp per hobgoblin? You've gotta be kidding me." Hence the reason I'm looking for suggestions from other DMs who've customized their campaigns in the same manner.
Seeker95 12-01-07, 07:30 PM	Why not just do away with XP. [...] Level the players when you and they think a level should be given.That's what I did for my last campaign. Worked great. The only area it seemed to have an initial hitch was magic item creation. So I just changed the materials required for most items (other than potions and scrolls) and turned such endeavors into quests for the materials.
Salla 12-01-07, 07:39 PM	I have yet to find anything wrong with the 3.5 XP system as presented.
CCS 12-02-07, 06:40 AM	I have yet to find anything wrong with the 3.5 XP system as presented. Other than the fact that in 3.5 you zip through levels so fast it's not even worth the time you spend adjusting character sheets between sessions? C'mon, the last character I played advanced so fast I barely got a chance to use newly aquired lv abilities before gaining more....
mathew99 12-02-07, 06:55 AM	well I'm playing FF2 right now. You should make a sysem that levels them up based on how many levels of monster they killed. So killing a lvl/cr 1 monster would get you 1 exp killing a lvl 2 monster would get you 2 exp and so on Then make a table off of that like: lvl 2: 30 lvl 3: 50 lvl 4: 80 lvl 5: 120 lvl 6: 170 lvl 7: 230 lvl 8: 300 lvl 9: 380 lvl 10: 470 lvl 11: 570 and so on...(your lvl X10 more points added at each lvl) taht is also, your score goes down to 0 at each lvl up. If you know how I got his system from FF2: DoS you get a :cookie: because it took me a few days to calculate how it worked in the end... I cast ire like 3000 times...
kuonji 12-02-07, 07:09 AM	How long do you feel it should take to get to 20, real world time. Our games are once a week, four hour sessions and the last big campaign we ran it took us a about 14 months of real time to level from 1 to 20. I found that to be a pretty good ammount of time and it seems to space out the progression pretty well. Old school progression wasn't capped at 20 (at least pre-epic) like 3.5 is, and 2e was still relatively quick to get from 1st to 9th or 10th depending on your class. After 9th/10th level is when progress really slowed down, especially for some classes. I guess it comes down to how long you want your game to last.
Seeker95 12-02-07, 08:22 AM	Other than the fact that in 3.5 you zip through levels so fast it's not even worth the time you spend adjusting character sheets between sessions?That is a personal preference, and not indicative of anything wrong with the xp tables in 3.5. C'mon, the last character I played advanced so fast I barely got a chance to use newly aquired lv abilities before gaining more....You can go 13 or 14 encounters without using your new abilities? Cause that's the pace at which the CR-EL-XP system will advance a character, assuming your DM is actually using it. This latter is a tall order, and I have read few descriptions of campaigns that fit it: Sticking to the advancement system requires: keeping the PC total wealth in line with recommended character levels, using reasonable stats at the start, creating level appropriate encounters, playing NPC opponents with at least a hint of a survival instinct not giving the PCs free power upgrades selectively allowing non-core material into the game If your DM is afraid to kill the PCs, gives them more powerful magic than the wealth-by-character-levels guidelines would allow them to afford, allows free this and early access to that ability, waives this or that requirement, and otherwise lets the PCs be more powerful than the level-appropriate opponents, advancement will come much faster. I find all of the above DM "lattitude" to be the norm, if discussions on these Boards are indicative.