Alternate Multiclass BAB option? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Multiclass BAB option? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
eggplantm
01-22-07, 11:56 AM I came up with an idea to make multiclassing a little more attractive and was wondering if anyone else was using this option.

What if instead of reading what a character's classes' BAB is at their respective level and just adding them together (which usually results in a lower BAB than normal) what if we maintain the fractions of the class's BAB and just add them together?

For example. as the rules are now a character could take a level of cleric (3/4 BAB), a level of Rogue (3/4 BAB) and a level of Wizard (1/2 BAB) to get a total of +0 as a third level character. Not very desirable.

However, if we maintain the fractional value of the respective BAB's, then it comes out to 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/2 = BAB +2. If this same character then took another level of wizard (1/2 BAB) it would increase to BAB 2 1/2 but we always round down for application purposes.

I think this system makes sense (though it does require a little more math) and greatly opens up the attraction of multiclassing.

My only concern is that it might lead to some levels of abuse. Namely the following example where a character takes the following level progression:
Rogue 1, Spellthief 1, Scout 1, Lurk 1, Ninja 1 to get a sneak of +3d6, sudden strike of +1d6 and skirmish of +1d6 with a BAB (5 X 3/4) of +4 (equal to a 5th level rogue). Then he begins to enter every prestige class available that grants +1d6 at first level or similar abilities. The goal is a Sneak attack-ish pool of +20d6 at 20th level.

What do the rest of you think of this idea? Is Anyone currently using this system?
Witch
01-22-07, 12:01 PM It's called fractional BAB and saves. Been done in unearthed arcana.
eggplantm
01-22-07, 12:24 PM It's called fractional BAB and saves. Been done in unearthed arcana.

Have you ever used it? I did not think about the saves. That would be more attractive as well.
MerlintheTuna
01-22-07, 02:24 PM Saves have been done as well, although there are varying systems. The big issue is that a class with a Good save (example: the Fighter's Fortitude) gets +2 bonus at first level, and people don't always agree how to work that. Here's how it breaks down.

Fighter 1: Fort/Ref/Will = +2.5/+.33/+.33
Ranger 1: Fort/Ref/Will = +2.5/+2.5/+.33

The question becomes, "What are the saves of a Fighter 1/Ranger 1?"

Option 1: Math is hard
Just combine the values for Fighter 1 and Ranger 1. You end up with a Fort/Ref/Will of +5/+.66/+.66. This is nice and easy, but it means that multiclass characters end up with even more stellar strong saves than before, while getting a slight boost to their poor ones. So a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Spellsword would have even more incredible Fort and Will, as well as a not-entirely-miserable Reflex save.

Option 2: The journey begins with a single step
This type (which I think is the one used in Unearthed Arcana) does not award the +2 bonus for a Good save except at first level. What this means is that a Fighter 1/Ranger 1 would have a Fort/Ref/Will of +3/+.83/+.66, but a Ranger 1/Fighter 1 would have a Fort/Ref Will of +3/+2.83/+.66. This has the benefit of keeping a multiclass character's saves more in line with a single classed character's, but it suffers from the same problem that 1st level skill points do. That is, it makes a character's first level ENTIRELY too important. I know that at least I think that Fight 1/Rang 1 should be pretty much the same as Rang 1/Fight 1, but this option doesn't reflect that.

Option 3: If you've got it, flaunt it
This type (my personal preference) is probably a bit more complicated, but it ends up being just as even as option 2 without putting such an emphasis on first level. Basically, begin by ignoring the +2 bonus to a Good save at first level. So Fighter 1 actually would have saves of +.5/+.33/+33, and Ranger 1 would have +.5/+.5/+.33. Add everything up as normal. At this point, Fight 1/Rang 1 should have saves of +1/+.83/+.66 Now, look through all of the classes you have levels in. Do any have a Good Fort? If yes (it doesn't matter how many), add 2 to your Fort. Do the same for Ref and Will. Since both classes have Good Fort and the Ranger has Good Ref, add 2 to the Fort and Ref scores, for a final total of +3/+2.83/+.66. I won't say it's not a bit confusing, but I find it yields the fairest results.

Hope that helps.
eggplantm
01-22-07, 02:39 PM Thank you, Merlinthetuna. I think I actually still like option 1 for this as I like to see the stellar saves but I'll have to think about this some more. Do you know a lot of people who use either of these options?
Leo
01-22-07, 03:16 PM Wait, I tought that most classes gained more saves at first level than they gain per level.

So a lv1 monk/Lv1 druid /lv1/cleric has +6/+2/+6, wich is pretty good for a 3rd lv character, while if we assumed a 3rd level characte rof just 1 class, it would have no save above +4.
RobbyPants
01-22-07, 03:20 PM Thank you, Merlinthetuna. I think I actually still like option 1 for this as I like to see the stellar saves but I'll have to think about this some more. Do you know a lot of people who use either of these options?
I've toyed with it, but I haven't yet (for some of the above mentioned reasons). I would consider using it for BAB before saves, but I don't think it's entierly broken for saves (so long as it works the same for PCs, NPCs, and the like). This option is particullarly useful for rogue-types and other semi-combatants that multi-class a bit.

For example, I have a player in my group playing a dragon shaman (+3/4 BAB). He's toying with taking a level of sorcerer (+1/2 BAB) to qualify for the dragon disciple PrC (+3/4 BAB). I warned him that doing so would give him two dead levels in his BAB progression (as he is the secondary fighter in the group). Using this system would penalize him far less.
Normal: DS8 = 6 + Sor1 = 0 + DD1 = 0 = BAB +6
Varient: DS8 = 6 + Sor1 = 0.5 + DD1 = 0.75 = BAB +7.25
Shinryouga
01-22-07, 04:50 PM My local gaming crew, myself included, uses the fractional system. (after a bad experience with a "dabbler" who had a base attack of 3 at 11th level)

We find that the generosity of the saves (we allow the multiple +2s) helps character survivability, but multiclassing penalties prevent any real abuse (we also enforce finishing prestige classes before taking others, unless the character has a really good reason why not to).

In all honesty, I think the system works fine, and encourages interesting characters via multiclassing. Just my two coppers.
Tharivol
01-22-07, 05:23 PM Option 2: The journey begins with a single step
This type (which I think is the one used in Unearthed Arcana) does not award the +2 bonus for a Good save except at first level. What this means is that a Fighter 1/Ranger 1 would have a Fort/Ref/Will of +3/+.83/+.66, but a Ranger 1/Fighter 1 would have a Fort/Ref Will of +3/+2.83/+.66. This has the benefit of keeping a multiclass character's saves more in line with a single classed character's, but it suffers from the same problem that 1st level skill points do. That is, it makes a character's first level ENTIRELY too important. I know that at least I think that Fight 1/Rang 1 should be pretty much the same as Rang 1/Fight 1, but this option doesn't reflect that.

Actually, I believe the method used in Unearthed Arcana is to only count the extra +2 bonus the first time you would get it, not the first level, so it does account for that.

So if my first-level sorceror takes a level of monk, she gets +0.5 Will (because she already got the extra +2) and +2.5 Ref and Fort (because she didn't get it yet), making her the same as if she took the monk level first.
fatal error
01-22-07, 09:16 PM Fractional Base Attack is practically required for D20 Modern, so yea, it is a fine idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
eggplantm 01-22-07, 11:56 AM	I came up with an idea to make multiclassing a little more attractive and was wondering if anyone else was using this option. What if instead of reading what a character's classes' BAB is at their respective level and just adding them together (which usually results in a lower BAB than normal) what if we maintain the fractions of the class's BAB and just add them together? For example. as the rules are now a character could take a level of cleric (3/4 BAB), a level of Rogue (3/4 BAB) and a level of Wizard (1/2 BAB) to get a total of +0 as a third level character. Not very desirable. However, if we maintain the fractional value of the respective BAB's, then it comes out to 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/2 = BAB +2. If this same character then took another level of wizard (1/2 BAB) it would increase to BAB 2 1/2 but we always round down for application purposes. I think this system makes sense (though it does require a little more math) and greatly opens up the attraction of multiclassing. My only concern is that it might lead to some levels of abuse. Namely the following example where a character takes the following level progression: Rogue 1, Spellthief 1, Scout 1, Lurk 1, Ninja 1 to get a sneak of +3d6, sudden strike of +1d6 and skirmish of +1d6 with a BAB (5 X 3/4) of +4 (equal to a 5th level rogue). Then he begins to enter every prestige class available that grants +1d6 at first level or similar abilities. The goal is a Sneak attack-ish pool of +20d6 at 20th level. What do the rest of you think of this idea? Is Anyone currently using this system?
Witch 01-22-07, 12:01 PM	It's called fractional BAB and saves. Been done in unearthed arcana.
eggplantm 01-22-07, 12:24 PM	It's called fractional BAB and saves. Been done in unearthed arcana. Have you ever used it? I did not think about the saves. That would be more attractive as well.
MerlintheTuna 01-22-07, 02:24 PM	Saves have been done as well, although there are varying systems. The big issue is that a class with a Good save (example: the Fighter's Fortitude) gets +2 bonus at first level, and people don't always agree how to work that. Here's how it breaks down. Fighter 1: Fort/Ref/Will = +2.5/+.33/+.33 Ranger 1: Fort/Ref/Will = +2.5/+2.5/+.33 The question becomes, "What are the saves of a Fighter 1/Ranger 1?" Option 1: Math is hard Just combine the values for Fighter 1 and Ranger 1. You end up with a Fort/Ref/Will of +5/+.66/+.66. This is nice and easy, but it means that multiclass characters end up with even more stellar strong saves than before, while getting a slight boost to their poor ones. So a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Spellsword would have even more incredible Fort and Will, as well as a not-entirely-miserable Reflex save. Option 2: The journey begins with a single step This type (which I think is the one used in Unearthed Arcana) does not award the +2 bonus for a Good save except at first level. What this means is that a Fighter 1/Ranger 1 would have a Fort/Ref/Will of +3/+.83/+.66, but a Ranger 1/Fighter 1 would have a Fort/Ref Will of +3/+2.83/+.66. This has the benefit of keeping a multiclass character's saves more in line with a single classed character's, but it suffers from the same problem that 1st level skill points do. That is, it makes a character's first level ENTIRELY too important. I know that at least I think that Fight 1/Rang 1 should be pretty much the same as Rang 1/Fight 1, but this option doesn't reflect that. Option 3: If you've got it, flaunt it This type (my personal preference) is probably a bit more complicated, but it ends up being just as even as option 2 without putting such an emphasis on first level. Basically, begin by ignoring the +2 bonus to a Good save at first level. So Fighter 1 actually would have saves of +.5/+.33/+33, and Ranger 1 would have +.5/+.5/+.33. Add everything up as normal. At this point, Fight 1/Rang 1 should have saves of +1/+.83/+.66 Now, look through all of the classes you have levels in. Do any have a Good Fort? If yes (it doesn't matter how many), add 2 to your Fort. Do the same for Ref and Will. Since both classes have Good Fort and the Ranger has Good Ref, add 2 to the Fort and Ref scores, for a final total of +3/+2.83/+.66. I won't say it's not a bit confusing, but I find it yields the fairest results. Hope that helps.
eggplantm 01-22-07, 02:39 PM	Thank you, Merlinthetuna. I think I actually still like option 1 for this as I like to see the stellar saves but I'll have to think about this some more. Do you know a lot of people who use either of these options?
Leo 01-22-07, 03:16 PM	Wait, I tought that most classes gained more saves at first level than they gain per level. So a lv1 monk/Lv1 druid /lv1/cleric has +6/+2/+6, wich is pretty good for a 3rd lv character, while if we assumed a 3rd level characte rof just 1 class, it would have no save above +4.
RobbyPants 01-22-07, 03:20 PM	Thank you, Merlinthetuna. I think I actually still like option 1 for this as I like to see the stellar saves but I'll have to think about this some more. Do you know a lot of people who use either of these options? I've toyed with it, but I haven't yet (for some of the above mentioned reasons). I would consider using it for BAB before saves, but I don't think it's entierly broken for saves (so long as it works the same for PCs, NPCs, and the like). This option is particullarly useful for rogue-types and other semi-combatants that multi-class a bit. For example, I have a player in my group playing a dragon shaman (+3/4 BAB). He's toying with taking a level of sorcerer (+1/2 BAB) to qualify for the dragon disciple PrC (+3/4 BAB). I warned him that doing so would give him two dead levels in his BAB progression (as he is the secondary fighter in the group). Using this system would penalize him far less. Normal: DS8 = 6 + Sor1 = 0 + DD1 = 0 = BAB +6 Varient: DS8 = 6 + Sor1 = 0.5 + DD1 = 0.75 = BAB +7.25
Shinryouga 01-22-07, 04:50 PM	My local gaming crew, myself included, uses the fractional system. (after a bad experience with a "dabbler" who had a base attack of 3 at 11th level) We find that the generosity of the saves (we allow the multiple +2s) helps character survivability, but multiclassing penalties prevent any real abuse (we also enforce finishing prestige classes before taking others, unless the character has a really good reason why not to). In all honesty, I think the system works fine, and encourages interesting characters via multiclassing. Just my two coppers.
Tharivol 01-22-07, 05:23 PM	Option 2: The journey begins with a single step This type (which I think is the one used in Unearthed Arcana) does not award the +2 bonus for a Good save except at first level. What this means is that a Fighter 1/Ranger 1 would have a Fort/Ref/Will of +3/+.83/+.66, but a Ranger 1/Fighter 1 would have a Fort/Ref Will of +3/+2.83/+.66. This has the benefit of keeping a multiclass character's saves more in line with a single classed character's, but it suffers from the same problem that 1st level skill points do. That is, it makes a character's first level ENTIRELY too important. I know that at least I think that Fight 1/Rang 1 should be pretty much the same as Rang 1/Fight 1, but this option doesn't reflect that. Actually, I believe the method used in Unearthed Arcana is to only count the extra +2 bonus the first time you would get it, not the first level, so it does account for that. So if my first-level sorceror takes a level of monk, she gets +0.5 Will (because she already got the extra +2) and +2.5 Ref and Fort (because she didn't get it yet), making her the same as if she took the monk level first.
fatal error 01-22-07, 09:16 PM	Fractional Base Attack is practically required for D20 Modern, so yea, it is a fine idea.