Alternate to class system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate to class system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mordring
07-05-05, 01:55 PM I'm A GM, and I'm attempting to come up with a more flexible version of the class system, where you use XP to buy skill points, feats, BAB, and class features.

Only, I'm unsure about how to figure out spellcasters spells, and unable to figure out how to convert CR to a classless system.

________________________________________ _______________
"Man lands on moon is not news. Moon lands on man is news."
Ezell Pike
07-05-05, 02:06 PM I wondered when someone might ask about this.

My players are unreceptive.

Have you considered a point buy system similar to 2e Skills and Powers?

Thats about as far as I got. I'll keep checking here and might come up with some more.
Ezell Pike
07-05-05, 02:12 PM If there were set values for every thing from spellcasting ability to BAB, and each PC got the same amount of points to buy abilities it would somewhat level the playing field. The number of points allowed for buying these abilities would govern the overall power of the characters.

In other words where X is the number in a standard campaign X2 would yield Gestalt characters. You could increase or decrease power to suit your campaign.

For spellcasting I would break it into three categories strong: Wiz, Clr /med: Brd /weak: Rgr, Pal, Hex
weasel fierce
07-05-05, 02:28 PM I'd recommend looking at some systems that already has things set up like this, for inspiration.

World of Darkness and GURPS comes to mind.
The D20 version of Godlike has exactly this as well. BESM D20 may have as well, but I could be wrong.

Spells are most easily done as a sort of skills, or you could do a pyramid structure. You have to pay x amount of level 1 spells, before buying a level 2 spell.

As for CR ? Ditch it. Its a hopeless concept IMO, and you are easier off simply assigning XP as appropriate.

Are you looking to eliminate levels as well ?
Ut-Napishtim
07-05-05, 02:38 PM I'd recommend looking at some systems that already has things set up like this, for inspiration.

Heh... personally I'd reccomend simply playing one. Are you a team of professional game designers? Probably not. GURPS is cool, give it a whirl. Anything you make up on your own is bound to be... less than comprehensive to say the least. Even after years of playtesting.
Mordring
07-05-05, 02:40 PM yes I am looking to eliminate levels. Another aspect of this is a system my old GM designed, where by practicing for a certain number of days or weeks, you could get feats and skill without advancing in level. It was developed to explain why his Elf commoners were all crack shots despite being lvl 2.

The thing is, I'm not trying to ditch the whole d20 system (only alot of it)
A concept my old GM came up with but never used while working on his flexi-class system, was giving classes slower BAB and having the PCs train with certain weapons, and only having normal (or sometimes greater than) bonus with certain weaons example: Fighter 10 has BAB +5, but has traing so he has greatsword +10, light crossbow +6, and shortsword +7.
J Milburn
07-05-05, 02:42 PM I think it would be hard to come up with a good one, and i personally thin k i prefer the classes as they are. But if that is what you want, give it a go.
striderII
07-05-05, 04:18 PM Heh... personally I'd reccomend simply playing one. Are you a team of professional game designers? Probably not. GURPS is cool, give it a whirl. Anything you make up on your own is bound to be... less than comprehensive to say the least. Even after years of playtesting.

Were Gygax and Arneson professional game designers when they developed the first version of D&D?

How about Mark Rein-Hagen? Was he a professional game designer when he developed the Storyteller system, and Vampire: the Masquerade?

Or how about countless other game designers who have invented the systems many of us use now?

Perhaps some of them were - but a lot of them *weren't*. Besides, even if it is less than comprehensive, unless the OP is planning on marketing said system, who cares? That's what a DM is for - to make rulings on things.

Sheesh.

strider
Gedrin
07-05-05, 04:40 PM I use a variant of the Storyteller system in my game. Works really well.
Ut-Napishtim
07-05-05, 05:18 PM Yeah, I'm sure I'll eat my words when Mordring's new system takes the world by storm.
:rolleyes:

Seriously though. I don't know why so many DM's these days feel the need to reinvent the wheel. Oh wait, maybe it's since 3.5 is actually comprehensive players are no longer dependant on the whims of DM rulings for everything. I suppose I could be more optomistic and say: Sure, go for it! I'm sure it will be a gem for years to come. Why? The fact of the matter is you can save youself a lot of work and headache by simply selecting one of the many systems that already offer these things. Yes, that may mean you actually <GASP!> have to learn another system besides d20 - but it's (contrary to popular belief) actually easier than trying to teach something "new" to your players that's really nothing more than five pages of house rules.
Arrowhen
07-05-05, 05:38 PM What's wrong with amateur game design as a hobby? If you enjoy the work and you have players who don't mind playtesting your creations, why should you be discouraged from designing your own game just because there are already games commercially available? Would you discourage someone from learning to program because there's already plenty of software for sale, or from learning to play an instrument when they could just go buy a CD? Why should game design be any different?
spamfiltre
07-05-05, 06:06 PM D20 is quite balanced within itself, so changing the way BAB works is probably not the best thing you could do. There is already a penalty for non-proficient weapon use, so you could simply reintroduce the concept of individual weapon proficiencies, if you really want the fighter to only be good with 3 weapons.

Aside from that, the idea of eliminating levels is not new, just very difficult in D&D.

Here's an idea off the top of my head that requires some math, eliminates class, but not level:

Take each core class and assign class-based, level-dependent abilities a percentage of the overall usefullness at each level.

Figure out what is comparable between the classes. For example, maybe a first level fighter's bonus feat is as important to the fighter as a 1st level Rogue's sneak attack is to the rogue. Make sure spellcasting is part of the mix. You may need to fudge the numbers a bit, or allow for a set margin.

Make a master list of abilities for easy reference.

Determine the XP based on percentages.

For example,

Looking at the CO boards, the fighter bonus feat is worth 30% of what it means to be a first level fighter. Feats are rare and that extra feat is powerful.

For argument's sake, let's say that Sneak Attack, and level 1 spells are also worth 30% (I'd make spells more than that, but this is an example).

With your XP-purchase program, you could have a level 1 character that casts level 1 arcane spells, has sneak attack, and a fighter bonus feat, but no BAB increase, skill points, or save increases.

Place some restrictions, like no more than +1 BAB/lvl, and you have a workable system. It would require a lot of playtesting to determine what percentage of a level each ability represents, but you could mix and match as you like.

Again, this is off the top of my head, so should be used only as an example of one possibility. Flamers should keep their comments to themselves and get a grip - I came up with this in 3 minutes.
striderII
07-05-05, 06:21 PM Yeah, I'm sure I'll eat my words when Mordring's new system takes the world by storm.
:rolleyes:

Seriously though. I don't know why so many DM's these days feel the need to reinvent the wheel. Oh wait, maybe it's since 3.5 is actually comprehensive players are no longer dependant on the whims of DM rulings for everything. I suppose I could be more optomistic and say: Sure, go for it! I'm sure it will be a gem for years to come. Why? The fact of the matter is you can save youself a lot of work and headache by simply selecting one of the many systems that already offer these things. Yes, that may mean you actually <GASP!> have to learn another system besides d20 - but it's (contrary to popular belief) actually easier than trying to teach something "new" to your players that's really nothing more than five pages of house rules.

First of all, 3.5 is not comprehensive - if it was, there would be no need for the number of rules clarifications, questions, and debates on these very boards. So, your very premise is on shaky ground.

Secondly, yes, you could be more optimistic. Maybe Mordring's rules will suck for you - maybe they'll be kick-ass. You don't know. I don't know. The only thing I *do* know is that, without constant tweaks, house-rulings, experimentation, etc., the system will stagnate - and not into something that pleases everyone, either. No game system will ever please everyone - at least, I sincerely doubt it.

As for learning other systems - you're right, it isn't that hard. However, not everyone has the monetary resources to purchase an entirely new game system to try it out. Perhaps you do, but not everyone does.

Other than that, read what Arrowhen said.

strider
Mordring
07-05-05, 07:21 PM DnD is a vague descendant of a wargame called StrategosN, which was developed by Dave Wesley, who designed it based off of Strategos, a 19th Century wargame.
But I digress.
The purpose of this is ultimatley to make the game engine more flexible, and instead of forcing players to pick a class, let them choose every aspect of how their character grows. It also is to make the game more realistic.
Mordring
07-05-05, 07:23 PM An I already know several other game systems. I play shadowrun as often as DnD.
Teaching players a new system takes a while, especially if not all of them have access to core rulebooks
Ut-Napishtim
07-05-05, 07:47 PM Dude, I'm just trying to be a voice of caution in a thread where all others have abandoned it. Sure, if he wants to put something together for his group and likes doing the work involved then more power to him. It is, however, much easier to go with an existing system. I didn't mean to come off so harsh on Mordring, but someone's got to say it. Half the folks on these boards claim to be writers or game designers, but I've seen none point to a credit on a book somewhere. Heck, most probably haven't even gotten a module into Dungeon Adventures.

Mordring, if you want to go ahead with this then I seriously hope things work out for your group. Be careful though, don't let a bunch of folks blowing your skirt up give you a big head. You start taking the game as more than a hobby it'll consume your life. Then you'll be just another hack stuck in a menial job fronting to a bunch of anon's you don't know on the internet, and holding out for your shot at the big time that'll never come. Pretty soon you'll be that creepy old guy that hangs out at the local shop 'cause he's got nobody and nothing but his comic book collection and a cat in his one bedroom apartment.
Arrowhen
07-05-05, 08:50 PM You start taking the game as more than a hobby it'll consume your life. Then you'll be just another hack stuck in a menial job fronting to a bunch of anon's you don't know on the internet, and holding out for your shot at the big time that'll never come. Pretty soon you'll be that creepy old guy that hangs out at the local shop 'cause he's got nobody and nothing but his comic book collection and a cat in his one bedroom apartment.
And that's bad? But being a bitter message board naysayer isn't?
Mordring
07-05-05, 09:34 PM Mordring, if you want to go ahead with this then I seriously hope things work out for your group. Be careful though, don't let a bunch of folks blowing your skirt up give you a big head. You start taking the game as more than a hobby it'll consume your life. Then you'll be just another hack stuck in a menial job fronting to a bunch of anon's you don't know on the internet, and holding out for your shot at the big time that'll never come. Pretty soon you'll be that creepy old guy that hangs out at the local shop 'cause he's got nobody and nothing but his comic book collection and a cat in his one bedroom apartment.

I'm not even out of school. I don't hope to become a professional(?) designer.
Ut-Napishtim
07-05-05, 10:24 PM And that's bad? But being a bitter message board naysayer isn't?

Hey, my original post was light, polite, and brief.
I didn't get defensive until striderII attacked it.
So who's bitter?

I'm not even out of school. I don't hope to become a professional(?) designer.

Cool, best of luck.
weasel fierce
07-06-05, 01:07 AM Professional just means you get paid for it :)

Im a professional wargame designer. My game has sold a rough 300 copies. Does that mean my opinion on wargame rules is better than another posters ? Nah, it just meant I was lucky and persistant.

I definately applaud anyone who wants to write his own game. After all, why play someone elses, if you would rather be playing your game.
But by all means look around and see some of the different ways people have done it in the past, then take what you like, invent what you cant find, and see what comes out of it.

My guess is that you'd be left with very little of what was originally D&D, except the D20 mechanic. Thats not nescesarily a bad thing.

DnD is a vague descendant of a wargame called StrategosN, which was developed by Dave Wesley, who designed it based off of Strategos, a 19th Century wargame.

Its also a rather direct descendent of Chainmail ;)

Half the folks on these boards claim to be writers or game designers, but I've seen none point to a credit on a book somewhere. Heck, most probably haven't even gotten a module into Dungeon Adventures.

Here (http://www.tindictator.com/Rules/ts.html)
Eliza_Stormwhisper
07-06-05, 01:15 AM There was something about it in the 2e skills and powers book.

And there's nothing wrong with amateur game design... I do it myself (check my sig).
striderII
07-06-05, 09:26 AM Hey, my original post was light, polite, and brief.
I didn't get defensive until striderII attacked it.
So who's bitter?

Well, now that I know that you were being *polite* by shooting him down... :rolleyes:

I wasn't "attacking" you - just pointing out that you were the only naysayer. There's a difference between puffing up the guy's ego, and saying "hey, that's a cool idea, let's see what we can do".

As I said...the hobby will stagnate without further innovation. It seemed like you were trying to squash that. If I came across as attacking, I apologize - I was simply trying to keep the poor guy from getting totally bummed out and giving it up.

strider
Mordring
07-06-05, 10:25 AM Well, now that I know that you were being *polite* by shooting him down... :rolleyes:

I wasn't "attacking" you - just pointing out that you were the only naysayer. There's a difference between puffing up the guy's ego, and saying "hey, that's a cool idea, let's see what we can do".

strider

This looks like it might be the beginning of a flame duel. Please avoid that.
Mordring
07-06-05, 11:40 AM Its also a rather direct descendent of Chainmail ;)

On Gary Gygax side of the family maybe. Arneson's relatives are a bit more obscure. :D
weasel fierce
07-06-05, 01:13 PM hehe, yeah.

Suposedly the armour class system came from a naval wargame, of all things
allenchan
07-06-05, 02:41 PM Back to the OP; DnD is a class-based system, period. Making it NOT class based simply makes it not DnD. Play WoD and add dragons, if it makes you happy.
the artful dodger
07-06-05, 03:02 PM Back to the OP; DnD is a class-based system, period. Making it NOT class based simply makes it not DnD. Play WoD and add dragons, if it makes you happy. Meh. D&D magic is supposed to be Vancian too. Then all of a sudden there are spontaneous casters and before you know it, spell point systems are introduced as variants. ;)
Mordring
07-06-05, 04:49 PM DnD remains such, regardless of whether I convert it to gurps or SR or any other of a dozen systems.The concept of the game is what makes it, not the mechanics.

Anyway, here is my 1st draft for a classless system. I hope you will give me suggestions on how to make it better. I'm still stuck on a few things

At character creation, each player gets 40 points
Hit dice
d4=2
d6=3
d8=4
d10=5
d12=6

Feats= 5 points
skills= 1 point per rank (3 points to define a skill as a class skill) 2 points per cc rank

Spellcasting
Strong Arcane (must choose spontaneous or prepared)=8
Strong Divine (must choose to have either cleric or druid spells)=8
Weak Arcane (bard)=6
Weak divine (must choose ranger or paladin spells; must be LG for paladin spells)= 4

Spells (require spellcasting ability)
0th level= .5pts [Each level requires at least 4 spells in
1st level= 1 pt [the lvl below it, excepting weak dvine
2nd level= 2 pts [spellcasters buy 1st level spells
3rd level= 4 pts
4th level= 6 points
5th level= 9 points
6th level= 12 points [weak special= 2pts
7th level= 16 pts [average special= 4 pts
8th level= 20 points [good special= 6 pts
9th level= 25 points [superb special= 8 pts

[the power level of a special should be
[decided by the GM based on its useful
[ness in the campaign
________________________________________ _________________________

I'm afraid somethings maybe underpriced. And more points are handed out at GM discretion
Arrowhen
07-06-05, 08:22 PM Something you might want to check out is Bitnines Roles and Tracks thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=116750) It's a system for creating new classes out of various combinations of class abilities--not a classless system like you have in mind, but it could give you an idea of how the various class abilities are balanced against each other.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mordring 07-05-05, 01:55 PM	I'm A GM, and I'm attempting to come up with a more flexible version of the class system, where you use XP to buy skill points, feats, BAB, and class features. Only, I'm unsure about how to figure out spellcasters spells, and unable to figure out how to convert CR to a classless system. ________________________________________ _______________ "Man lands on moon is not news. Moon lands on man is news."
Ezell Pike 07-05-05, 02:06 PM	I wondered when someone might ask about this. My players are unreceptive. Have you considered a point buy system similar to 2e Skills and Powers? Thats about as far as I got. I'll keep checking here and might come up with some more.
Ezell Pike 07-05-05, 02:12 PM	If there were set values for every thing from spellcasting ability to BAB, and each PC got the same amount of points to buy abilities it would somewhat level the playing field. The number of points allowed for buying these abilities would govern the overall power of the characters. In other words where X is the number in a standard campaign X2 would yield Gestalt characters. You could increase or decrease power to suit your campaign. For spellcasting I would break it into three categories strong: Wiz, Clr /med: Brd /weak: Rgr, Pal, Hex
weasel fierce 07-05-05, 02:28 PM	I'd recommend looking at some systems that already has things set up like this, for inspiration. World of Darkness and GURPS comes to mind. The D20 version of Godlike has exactly this as well. BESM D20 may have as well, but I could be wrong. Spells are most easily done as a sort of skills, or you could do a pyramid structure. You have to pay x amount of level 1 spells, before buying a level 2 spell. As for CR ? Ditch it. Its a hopeless concept IMO, and you are easier off simply assigning XP as appropriate. Are you looking to eliminate levels as well ?
Ut-Napishtim 07-05-05, 02:38 PM	I'd recommend looking at some systems that already has things set up like this, for inspiration. Heh... personally I'd reccomend simply playing one. Are you a team of professional game designers? Probably not. GURPS is cool, give it a whirl. Anything you make up on your own is bound to be... less than comprehensive to say the least. Even after years of playtesting.
Mordring 07-05-05, 02:40 PM	yes I am looking to eliminate levels. Another aspect of this is a system my old GM designed, where by practicing for a certain number of days or weeks, you could get feats and skill without advancing in level. It was developed to explain why his Elf commoners were all crack shots despite being lvl 2. The thing is, I'm not trying to ditch the whole d20 system (only alot of it) A concept my old GM came up with but never used while working on his flexi-class system, was giving classes slower BAB and having the PCs train with certain weapons, and only having normal (or sometimes greater than) bonus with certain weaons example: Fighter 10 has BAB +5, but has traing so he has greatsword +10, light crossbow +6, and shortsword +7.
J Milburn 07-05-05, 02:42 PM	I think it would be hard to come up with a good one, and i personally thin k i prefer the classes as they are. But if that is what you want, give it a go.
striderII 07-05-05, 04:18 PM	Heh... personally I'd reccomend simply playing one. Are you a team of professional game designers? Probably not. GURPS is cool, give it a whirl. Anything you make up on your own is bound to be... less than comprehensive to say the least. Even after years of playtesting. Were Gygax and Arneson professional game designers when they developed the first version of D&D? How about Mark Rein-Hagen? Was he a professional game designer when he developed the Storyteller system, and Vampire: the Masquerade? Or how about countless other game designers who have invented the systems many of us use now? Perhaps some of them were - but a lot of them weren't. Besides, even if it is less than comprehensive, unless the OP is planning on marketing said system, who cares? That's what a DM is for - to make rulings on things. Sheesh. strider
Gedrin 07-05-05, 04:40 PM	I use a variant of the Storyteller system in my game. Works really well.
Ut-Napishtim 07-05-05, 05:18 PM	Yeah, I'm sure I'll eat my words when Mordring's new system takes the world by storm. :rolleyes: Seriously though. I don't know why so many DM's these days feel the need to reinvent the wheel. Oh wait, maybe it's since 3.5 is actually comprehensive players are no longer dependant on the whims of DM rulings for everything. I suppose I could be more optomistic and say: Sure, go for it! I'm sure it will be a gem for years to come. Why? The fact of the matter is you can save youself a lot of work and headache by simply selecting one of the many systems that already offer these things. Yes, that may mean you actually <GASP!> have to learn another system besides d20 - but it's (contrary to popular belief) actually easier than trying to teach something "new" to your players that's really nothing more than five pages of house rules.
Arrowhen 07-05-05, 05:38 PM	What's wrong with amateur game design as a hobby? If you enjoy the work and you have players who don't mind playtesting your creations, why should you be discouraged from designing your own game just because there are already games commercially available? Would you discourage someone from learning to program because there's already plenty of software for sale, or from learning to play an instrument when they could just go buy a CD? Why should game design be any different?
spamfiltre 07-05-05, 06:06 PM	D20 is quite balanced within itself, so changing the way BAB works is probably not the best thing you could do. There is already a penalty for non-proficient weapon use, so you could simply reintroduce the concept of individual weapon proficiencies, if you really want the fighter to only be good with 3 weapons. Aside from that, the idea of eliminating levels is not new, just very difficult in D&D. Here's an idea off the top of my head that requires some math, eliminates class, but not level: Take each core class and assign class-based, level-dependent abilities a percentage of the overall usefullness at each level. Figure out what is comparable between the classes. For example, maybe a first level fighter's bonus feat is as important to the fighter as a 1st level Rogue's sneak attack is to the rogue. Make sure spellcasting is part of the mix. You may need to fudge the numbers a bit, or allow for a set margin. Make a master list of abilities for easy reference. Determine the XP based on percentages. For example, Looking at the CO boards, the fighter bonus feat is worth 30% of what it means to be a first level fighter. Feats are rare and that extra feat is powerful. For argument's sake, let's say that Sneak Attack, and level 1 spells are also worth 30% (I'd make spells more than that, but this is an example). With your XP-purchase program, you could have a level 1 character that casts level 1 arcane spells, has sneak attack, and a fighter bonus feat, but no BAB increase, skill points, or save increases. Place some restrictions, like no more than +1 BAB/lvl, and you have a workable system. It would require a lot of playtesting to determine what percentage of a level each ability represents, but you could mix and match as you like. Again, this is off the top of my head, so should be used only as an example of one possibility. Flamers should keep their comments to themselves and get a grip - I came up with this in 3 minutes.
striderII 07-05-05, 06:21 PM	Yeah, I'm sure I'll eat my words when Mordring's new system takes the world by storm. :rolleyes: Seriously though. I don't know why so many DM's these days feel the need to reinvent the wheel. Oh wait, maybe it's since 3.5 is actually comprehensive players are no longer dependant on the whims of DM rulings for everything. I suppose I could be more optomistic and say: Sure, go for it! I'm sure it will be a gem for years to come. Why? The fact of the matter is you can save youself a lot of work and headache by simply selecting one of the many systems that already offer these things. Yes, that may mean you actually <GASP!> have to learn another system besides d20 - but it's (contrary to popular belief) actually easier than trying to teach something "new" to your players that's really nothing more than five pages of house rules. First of all, 3.5 is not comprehensive - if it was, there would be no need for the number of rules clarifications, questions, and debates on these very boards. So, your very premise is on shaky ground. Secondly, yes, you could be more optimistic. Maybe Mordring's rules will suck for you - maybe they'll be kick-ass. You don't know. I don't know. The only thing I do know is that, without constant tweaks, house-rulings, experimentation, etc., the system will stagnate - and not into something that pleases everyone, either. No game system will ever please everyone - at least, I sincerely doubt it. As for learning other systems - you're right, it isn't that hard. However, not everyone has the monetary resources to purchase an entirely new game system to try it out. Perhaps you do, but not everyone does. Other than that, read what Arrowhen said. strider
Mordring 07-05-05, 07:21 PM	DnD is a vague descendant of a wargame called StrategosN, which was developed by Dave Wesley, who designed it based off of Strategos, a 19th Century wargame. But I digress. The purpose of this is ultimatley to make the game engine more flexible, and instead of forcing players to pick a class, let them choose every aspect of how their character grows. It also is to make the game more realistic.
Mordring 07-05-05, 07:23 PM	An I already know several other game systems. I play shadowrun as often as DnD. Teaching players a new system takes a while, especially if not all of them have access to core rulebooks
Ut-Napishtim 07-05-05, 07:47 PM	Dude, I'm just trying to be a voice of caution in a thread where all others have abandoned it. Sure, if he wants to put something together for his group and likes doing the work involved then more power to him. It is, however, much easier to go with an existing system. I didn't mean to come off so harsh on Mordring, but someone's got to say it. Half the folks on these boards claim to be writers or game designers, but I've seen none point to a credit on a book somewhere. Heck, most probably haven't even gotten a module into Dungeon Adventures. Mordring, if you want to go ahead with this then I seriously hope things work out for your group. Be careful though, don't let a bunch of folks blowing your skirt up give you a big head. You start taking the game as more than a hobby it'll consume your life. Then you'll be just another hack stuck in a menial job fronting to a bunch of anon's you don't know on the internet, and holding out for your shot at the big time that'll never come. Pretty soon you'll be that creepy old guy that hangs out at the local shop 'cause he's got nobody and nothing but his comic book collection and a cat in his one bedroom apartment.
Arrowhen 07-05-05, 08:50 PM	You start taking the game as more than a hobby it'll consume your life. Then you'll be just another hack stuck in a menial job fronting to a bunch of anon's you don't know on the internet, and holding out for your shot at the big time that'll never come. Pretty soon you'll be that creepy old guy that hangs out at the local shop 'cause he's got nobody and nothing but his comic book collection and a cat in his one bedroom apartment. And that's bad? But being a bitter message board naysayer isn't?
Mordring 07-05-05, 09:34 PM	Mordring, if you want to go ahead with this then I seriously hope things work out for your group. Be careful though, don't let a bunch of folks blowing your skirt up give you a big head. You start taking the game as more than a hobby it'll consume your life. Then you'll be just another hack stuck in a menial job fronting to a bunch of anon's you don't know on the internet, and holding out for your shot at the big time that'll never come. Pretty soon you'll be that creepy old guy that hangs out at the local shop 'cause he's got nobody and nothing but his comic book collection and a cat in his one bedroom apartment. I'm not even out of school. I don't hope to become a professional(?) designer.
Ut-Napishtim 07-05-05, 10:24 PM	And that's bad? But being a bitter message board naysayer isn't? Hey, my original post was light, polite, and brief. I didn't get defensive until striderII attacked it. So who's bitter? I'm not even out of school. I don't hope to become a professional(?) designer. Cool, best of luck.
weasel fierce 07-06-05, 01:07 AM	Professional just means you get paid for it :) Im a professional wargame designer. My game has sold a rough 300 copies. Does that mean my opinion on wargame rules is better than another posters ? Nah, it just meant I was lucky and persistant. I definately applaud anyone who wants to write his own game. After all, why play someone elses, if you would rather be playing your game. But by all means look around and see some of the different ways people have done it in the past, then take what you like, invent what you cant find, and see what comes out of it. My guess is that you'd be left with very little of what was originally D&D, except the D20 mechanic. Thats not nescesarily a bad thing. DnD is a vague descendant of a wargame called StrategosN, which was developed by Dave Wesley, who designed it based off of Strategos, a 19th Century wargame. Its also a rather direct descendent of Chainmail ;) Half the folks on these boards claim to be writers or game designers, but I've seen none point to a credit on a book somewhere. Heck, most probably haven't even gotten a module into Dungeon Adventures. Here (http://www.tindictator.com/Rules/ts.html)
Eliza_Stormwhisper 07-06-05, 01:15 AM	There was something about it in the 2e skills and powers book. And there's nothing wrong with amateur game design... I do it myself (check my sig).
striderII 07-06-05, 09:26 AM	Hey, my original post was light, polite, and brief. I didn't get defensive until striderII attacked it. So who's bitter? Well, now that I know that you were being polite by shooting him down... :rolleyes: I wasn't "attacking" you - just pointing out that you were the only naysayer. There's a difference between puffing up the guy's ego, and saying "hey, that's a cool idea, let's see what we can do". As I said...the hobby will stagnate without further innovation. It seemed like you were trying to squash that. If I came across as attacking, I apologize - I was simply trying to keep the poor guy from getting totally bummed out and giving it up. strider
Mordring 07-06-05, 10:25 AM	Well, now that I know that you were being polite by shooting him down... :rolleyes: I wasn't "attacking" you - just pointing out that you were the only naysayer. There's a difference between puffing up the guy's ego, and saying "hey, that's a cool idea, let's see what we can do". strider This looks like it might be the beginning of a flame duel. Please avoid that.
Mordring 07-06-05, 11:40 AM	Its also a rather direct descendent of Chainmail ;) On Gary Gygax side of the family maybe. Arneson's relatives are a bit more obscure. :D
weasel fierce 07-06-05, 01:13 PM	hehe, yeah. Suposedly the armour class system came from a naval wargame, of all things
allenchan 07-06-05, 02:41 PM	Back to the OP; DnD is a class-based system, period. Making it NOT class based simply makes it not DnD. Play WoD and add dragons, if it makes you happy.
the artful dodger 07-06-05, 03:02 PM	Back to the OP; DnD is a class-based system, period. Making it NOT class based simply makes it not DnD. Play WoD and add dragons, if it makes you happy. Meh. D&D magic is supposed to be Vancian too. Then all of a sudden there are spontaneous casters and before you know it, spell point systems are introduced as variants. ;)
Mordring 07-06-05, 04:49 PM	DnD remains such, regardless of whether I convert it to gurps or SR or any other of a dozen systems.The concept of the game is what makes it, not the mechanics. Anyway, here is my 1st draft for a classless system. I hope you will give me suggestions on how to make it better. I'm still stuck on a few things At character creation, each player gets 40 points Hit dice d4=2 d6=3 d8=4 d10=5 d12=6 Feats= 5 points skills= 1 point per rank (3 points to define a skill as a class skill) 2 points per cc rank Spellcasting Strong Arcane (must choose spontaneous or prepared)=8 Strong Divine (must choose to have either cleric or druid spells)=8 Weak Arcane (bard)=6 Weak divine (must choose ranger or paladin spells; must be LG for paladin spells)= 4 Spells (require spellcasting ability) 0th level= .5pts [Each level requires at least 4 spells in 1st level= 1 pt [the lvl below it, excepting weak dvine 2nd level= 2 pts [spellcasters buy 1st level spells 3rd level= 4 pts 4th level= 6 points 5th level= 9 points 6th level= 12 points [weak special= 2pts 7th level= 16 pts [average special= 4 pts 8th level= 20 points [good special= 6 pts 9th level= 25 points [superb special= 8 pts [the power level of a special should be [decided by the GM based on its useful [ness in the campaign ________________________________________ _________________________ I'm afraid somethings maybe underpriced. And more points are handed out at GM discretion
Arrowhen 07-06-05, 08:22 PM	Something you might want to check out is Bitnines Roles and Tracks thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=116750) It's a system for creating new classes out of various combinations of class abilities--not a classless system like you have in mind, but it could give you an idea of how the various class abilities are balanced against each other.