Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sudnji_cas 03-31-07, 07:38 PM	Whenever alignment system is being discussed on this board, people say it's not complex enough. I am not saying it's not true. I think it's kinda stupid too, and I would like to see a better one. Please?
Seeker95 03-31-07, 08:28 PM	What is your idea of "better"?
Sudnji_cas 03-31-07, 08:43 PM	More complex (I always complicate things)
Dreamstryder 04-01-07, 03:53 AM	So would you want it more reflective of our reality or just different in a more complex way? For example, you could come up with some system of stellar or planar alignment with more than 2 axises (axes?), or you could have alignment points that add up or die down depending on your actions, or you could have an alignment that curses you in one way and blesses you in another (which bless-curse pair you have depends on your alignment).
Pfisiar 04-01-07, 08:41 AM	The current alignment system is pretty damn good. It creates a large degree of variation and makes sense. (Unless of course you are a literalist who stresses every single word in a sentance/paragraph equally.)
Seeker95 04-01-07, 09:56 AM	Pfisiar, do you realize you have just described one in three members of these forums?!
Tichondrus 04-01-07, 10:02 AM	I think three on three seeker =p Make you, the guy with Elan in his avatar and.... that's about it the exceptions =p Sudnji_cas, try white wolf's Nature and Deamenor system (look for it somewhere, try their site or someting), when it comes to munchkining, wizard has no match, but when alignment/character's psychology/realism comes into play, White Wolf'll probably give you the best solutions. This is a personal opinion and in no posible way saying "WW is better than Wizards"
Arrowhen 04-01-07, 10:53 AM	You want more complex rules or rules that allow more complex characters? Can't help you with the first, but for the second... Toss out all that tired old Lawful, Good, Neutral stuff and decided what really matters to each character. Each character has a number (three's always a good number) of Values, comprised of a Principle, an Extent, and a Price. These components can be thought of as the answers to the following statements: Principle - "I am dedicated to _________..." Extent - "...and I'm willing to _________ for it..." Price - "...but I'd compromise that belief if ________." Example values might be: "I believe in the sanctity of all life and will lay down my own life to protect an innocent, but enemies of the Crown must die", "I am dedicated to obtaining power for myself and will crush anyone who gets in my way, but I won't harm a child", or the slightly less melodramatic "I value my freedom and will bail anytime someone tries to tie me down, at least until the right woman comes along." You can't choose "nothing" as a Principle and, provided you're a free-willed being, you can't choose "nothing" as a Price. Also, just for fun, two of your Values should conflict somehow.
deadman1204 04-01-07, 02:43 PM	people stick to hard to alignment, it should be nothing more than a guideline. It helps describe your character, not proscribes his actions. Develop your character and however his personality develops, that is his alignment - not the other way around that he must do this because that is his alignment.
a_psh 04-01-07, 03:07 PM	Toss out all that tired old Lawful, Good, Neutral stuff and decided what really matters to each character. Each character has a number (three's always a good number) of Values, comprised of a Principle, an Extent, and a Price. These components can be thought of as the answers to the following statements: Principle - "I am dedicated to _________..." Extent - "...and I'm willing to _________ for it..." Price - "...but I'd compromise that belief if ________."I usually hate these alignment system things, but that's a pretty good design, Arrowhen. I think it's a pretty good shorthand for figuring out what you want in a character. I'd add this: 1. Leave it up to the player to pass judgement on the PC. Others should certainly express opinions, but they have no in-game weight. 2. Remember that doing something "out of character" (e.g. breaking alignment) is exactly how characters grow. When someone breaks a principle unexpectedly, that's character development right there!
Morits 04-01-07, 03:08 PM	In Star Wars and Harry Potter, Light/ Dark is just Good/ Evil. I have been trying to develop Light/ Dark into a 3rd Alg dimension based on open / hidden. Paladins are light because they have to be loud and proud; Rogues are dark about their crimes and sneakiness; Super-heroes are dark about their secret identities. Missionary religions like Christianity and Islam are light because they want to tell everyone; secret cults like Jediism and Freemasonry are dark because they only tell stuff to people who are worthy.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-01-07, 03:12 PM	Well... The original alignment system from D&D use Law-Chaos to represent Good-Evil in a simple mechanic and to allow for Lawful villans. Later editions killed it by tacking Good-Evil onto it in order to make it "okay" to slaughter kobolds and orcs, leading to some very interesting and conflicting problems, like "what is Batman's alignment?" and the ability of some alignments to "imply" certain attitudes without actually covering them. Let's make something old new again. Alignment A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful, neutral, or chaotic. Alignment is a simplified represenation of your character's personality specifically used for spell effects and class features like a paladin's smite evil ability. It does not determine how your character acts, instead it is dependent upon your character's identity and outlook. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent. Lawful, "Good" Lawful characters believe that others cannot adequately deal with the trials of life, and require the support of others to get through life. They act in the best interests of the group, often making personal sacrifices for the sake of others, and expect others to do the same. Lawful creatures often have a strong respect for sentient life, or believe in a code that dictates their behavior. Neutral, "Undecided" Neutral characters do not have strong leanings towards either law or chaos. Personal relationships mean more to such characters than their morals. They feel guilty when they advantage of others, but lack the commitment to actively protect or help others. Alternately, some neutral characters such as druids believe so strongly in a natural order than they carefully alternate between lawful and chaotic actions in order to maintain it. In any case, a neutral character is defined by performing both lawful and chaotic acts without favoring one over the other. Chaotic, "Evil" Chaotic characters believe that all creatures are perfectly capable of dealing with the trials of life, and anyone who doesn't focus on his own well-being will come up short in the end. They act in their own interests, often at the expense of others, and expect others to do the same. Chaotic creatures often have few problems with ending a life, or resent the pressure and restrictions of strong authority. Being lawful or chaotic can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, alignment is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than law or chaos. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior. Because alignment represents a mindset, creatures of similar alignments are capable of primitive nonverbal communication. This communication is, at best, empathic, conveying basic emotions like thirst, hunger, fear, fatigue, pain, rage, hatred, uncertainty, curiosity, friendliness, and many other kinds of sensations and moods. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher is automatically fluent (for what it's worth) in Chaotic, Lawful, or Neutral as its alignment dictates. The Speak Language skill may be used as normal to learn either of the other two languages. Alignment-based communication only works between two willing subjects who can study each other, it cannot be used to gain an insight into a character's thoughts or to grant a bonus to Sense Motive checks. "Law" and "chaos" are considered to be technical terms, used only in an extraplanar or divine sense. "Good" and "evil", even "holy" and "unholy", are much more common. Designer's Note: Okay, things get a little unorthodox here. Law-Chaos Alignment And Classes Barbarians can be of any alignment, their wild and reckless strength can be wielded both to destroy and defend. Barbarians rarely enjoy taking orders and following laws, but often follow their own code of superstitions or adages. Bards can be of any nonchaotic alignment, the bard's class features help him to aid others in their endeavors, and leave little room to act in one's own interests. However, the lifestyle most bards engage in is anything but structured. A bard who becomes chaotic cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities. Because there are only three alignments, a cleric's alignment must match his deity's. The devotion required to be a cleric leaves little room for wavering hearts. A lawful cleric turns undead, and a chaotic cleric rebukes them. A neutral cleric can either turn or destroy undead, depending on his diety and his tendancies. A cleric whose alignment changes such that it no longer matches his diety's, or who violates the code of conduct required by his god, loses all his divine spellcasting, the ability to turn or rebuke undead, his aura class feature, and all domain abilities, and cannot continue gaining levels as a cleric of that god until he atones. Druids must be neutral. Druids are guardians of balance and representatives of nature's order. A druid who ceases to revere nature, becomes nonneutral, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones. Monks can be of any alignment. While a monk is trained through a heavily disciplined training regime (and can follow it if he chooses to), it is usually independent of his moral values. Paladins must be lawful. A paladin emits an aura of law. A paladin can detect chaos as the spell. A paladin can smite evil, affecting undead and outsiders. A paladin may associate with characters regardless of alignment, but cannot associate with fiends. A paladin who ceases to be lawful, who willfully acts in her own best interests at the expense of others, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations. Arcane tricksters can be of any alignment. Although their abilities are a great boon to thieves and illusionists, arcane tricksters can use their powers to entertain, work with allies in combat, and deal with dangerous mechanisms. Assassins can be of any alignment. Discrete killing can be used in both nefarious and noble purposes, depending on who is killed and for what purpose. Blackguards can be of any nonlawful alignment. A blackguard needs to associate with a fiend, be it a devil or demon. Though a subverted paladin may still believe he serves the greater good, love of bloodshed and terror is decidedly chaotic. Law-Chaos Alignment And Spells Animate dead has the [Chaotic] descriptor. Blasphemy is folded into word of chaos. Bless water has the [Lawful] descriptor. Holy water damages undead and chaotic outsiders. Chaos hammer can either sicken for 1d4 rounds (negated on a successful save, cannot be negated by remove disease or heal but remove curse is effective) or slow. Cloak of chaos can either cause 1d6 points of temporary Strength damage (Fortitude negates) or confusion, chosen when the spell is cast. Contagion has no descriptor, it's simple necromancy. Create greater undead has the [Chaotic] descriptor. Create undead has the [Chaotic] descriptor. Curse water has the [Chaotic] descriptor. Unholy water damages lawful outsiders the way holy water damages undead and chaotic outsiders. Desecrate has the [Lawful] descriptor. Death knell has the [Chaotic] descriptor. Deathwatch has no descriptor, it is a simple utility spell that would be better off called "detect life". Desecrate has the chaotic descriptor. Dictum can use either the holy word effect table or its own. Dispel evil is folded into dispel chaos. Dispel good is folded into dispel law. Eyebite has the chaotic descriptor. Hallow has the [Lawful] descriptor. It grants a magic circle against chaos effect. Holy aura is folded into shield of law. Holy smite is folded into order's wrath. Holy word is folded into dictum. Holy sword has the [Lawful] descriptor, makes the target act as a +5 axiomatic weapon, and makes the target emit a magic circle against chaos. Magic circle against evil is folded into magic circle against chaos. Magic circle against good is folded into magic circle against law. Nightmare has the [Chaotic] descriptor, and is disrupted by dispel chaos. Protection from evil is folded into protection from chaos. Protection from good is folded into protection from law. Order's wrath can either blind for one round (negated on a successful save) or or daze, chosen when the spell is cast. Shield of law can either cause permanent blindness (Fortitude negates) or slow, chosen when the spell is cast. Summon monster, as a general rule of thumb, uses the lawful to chaotic axis to determine its alignment descriptor. See Law-Chaos Alignment And Monsters below. Symbol of pain has the [Chaotic] descriptor. Unhallow has the [Chaotic] descriptor. It grants a magic circle against law effect. Unholy aura is folded into cloak of chaos. Unholy blight is folded into chaos hammer. Word of chaos can use either the blasphemy effect table or its own. The Chaos domain uses the evil domain spells that have not been folded in place of its current spells. The Law domain uses the good domain spells that have not been folded in place of its current spells. Law-Chaos Alignment And Monsters Creatures that are Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral can usually be Lawful. Creatures that are Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral can usually be Chaotic. Creatures that are True Neutral can usually be Neutral. Creatures of Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Neutral Good alignment that are distinguished by the law-chaos component of their alignment, such as dragons, demons, devils, and lycanthropes, should simply use their current law-chaos alignment. If a creature is Neutral Good or Neutral Evil simply because it enjoys helping others or killing others without respect to order or disorder, it is Lawful or Chaotic respectively. If a creature is Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil because it has conflicting tendancies, it is neutral. If a character is Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil so that he can get away with questionable acts in a Good party, he is chaotic. :P A few more notes: Demons delight in slaughter and destruction, the epitome of evilness and chaoticness. Chaotic celestials do similar things, they just kill different kinds of people. Devils are more tricky. Their evilness stems from arrogance, they believe that lesser beings squander their resources and don't deserve to have them, and if you squish a few innocents along the way it's all fine as long as you're acting in the best interest of the mortals (which are YOUR interests because YOU know what's best for them). Archons are sometimes very similar to devils when it comes to being domineering. Oh, you also have to throw out the Great Wheel cosmology if you use this.
ArcTan 04-01-07, 03:14 PM	The current alignment system is pretty damn good. It creates a large degree of variation and makes sense. (Unless of course you are a literalist who stresses every single word in a sentance/paragraph equally.) A two-axis system that creates nine descriptors isn't a particularly large degree of variation.
swallowyersoul 04-01-07, 04:02 PM	the alignment system works well for what it's intended to do: to be a ruleset that reflects the tangible effect of literal evil, good, law and chaos. it's not so good as many players use it: a definition of character personality. many (many, many!) players write 'CN' on their charsheet as the entire statement of their character's ethics, goals, hopes and dreams. that's not a system failure. it's user error. there are ways to encourage more player thought into personality. in my campaign, ferinstance, we used a questionairre. see also 'fear the boot' podcast's earlier episodes for more good ideas on developing your character. you see the 'alignment suxxors' thread pretty often here, almost as often as the 'CR vs LA means the world is going to end' thread. both are cases of people picking up a powerful tool and putting it to the wrong purpose.
Pfisiar 04-01-07, 05:28 PM	Alignment was not intended to describe a character's personality. It only suggests a character's actions. Alignment is derived from character personality. Personality is not derived from alignment. DAMN ALL THE LITERALISTS!
taradusis 04-01-07, 06:01 PM	You could also go to the msrd and check out D20 moderns allegiance system.Slightly more complicated version of alignment,not an improvement in my opinion,but your views may vary.
Always-Late 04-01-07, 06:23 PM	Alignment Fix Only outsiders have alignment, and then only aligned outsiders. All spells that detect alignment now only detect outsiders and specific spells like Hallow, etc. Spells that affect only characters of a certain alignment now only affect anybody you want them to. (For example, Holy Burst could send Holy Smackdown on anybody you wanted.) All alignment restrictions are gone. Done.
Rocketboy13 04-01-07, 11:41 PM	The current alignment system is pretty damn good. It creates a large degree of variation and makes sense. (Unless of course you are a literalist who stresses every single word in a sentance/paragraph equally.) I think you have isolated the problem.
JulesCARV 04-02-07, 12:57 AM	I proposed a system called obligation ratings. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=692478) It's basically a bit like the Vampire Humanity/Path system, in that you have a numerical rating of how principled you are in sticking to something (although it's a 0-3 scale, not a 0-10 scale), but you're considered to be on all "paths" simultaneously (although you may have low ratings in some paths and high ratings in others). For example, non-violence is one of the paths, and respect for mental autonomy is another, so a telepath/thrallherd who never injures or kills anything with an intelligence score and cannot abide any bloodshed, but has no problems dominating people who are obstructing his aims, might have a 2 or 3 in "non-violence" and a 0 or 1 in "mental autonomy." A wizard who bars enchantment and hates mind-control effects but loves to throw fireballs and disintegration spells at enemies is pretty much the opposite -- violent, but respectful of mental autonomy.
Journeyman Samwise 04-02-07, 01:04 AM	White Wolf published a pretty good alternate in their "Swords and Sorcery" line a way back, it's in "Chaositech" (which is a pretty swanky book) and a few others, I think? It has a number-based alignment system, that corrisponds to how vehemently the character follows the principals of Good, Evil, Chaos, or Law. It's sort of like Humanity, in the Vampire games, but you don't have to wear all black to use it.
Seeker95 04-02-07, 08:42 AM	In my game, alignment has never been a problem. You play your character. I tell you what alignment it falls into. If you don't like your alignment, play differently. If you like how you play, don't worry about your alignment.
Cyanide300 04-02-07, 09:56 AM	The alignment system in D&D could never be complex enough to deal with all the variation in character and personality traits that sentient beings can exibit. You'll never find a system that represents everyone with 100% accuracy. Nothing is always evil, or always lawful (read: orderly) because good and evil, and to a lesser extent, law and chaos are relative terms. To the baker, the man who steals the bread is commiting an evil act. To the man who stole the bread, feeding his starving family is good. The only reason D&D even has an alignment system is so you can restrict certain clerics to certain dieties and spells, restrict certain characters from certain classes, and use a spell to determine the morals and ethics of a creature. If it wasn't for those mechanics, then you could do away with alignment and everybody would just play their character the way he/she is, not based on some 2 axis railroad. Alignment in D&D is a mechanics based system, not a roleplaying system. It's there because people who don't respect the DM's authority need some sort of concrete rule from a book that says their satanic cleric can't spontaneously use heavenly energy to heal himself.
Luis_Carlos 04-05-07, 03:15 PM	My own system keeps good-evil axis, but law-chaos is a litle different, with a bit from allegiance system from d20 Modern. My own concept of chaotic good is very diferent of standard CG from player handbook. For me CG obeying a code of conduct (¨the natural law¨), and be so honorable like a paladin or a samurai but....they haven´t doubts to turning in one's resignation if they are convinced their, higher or superior is a villain..but the will have to great respecto for worthing of confidence (for example a honest merchant or a missionary with help the poor). Their flaw is sometimes theis feels are stronger than duty...(be in love of wrong lady, for example, or fighting with a hated enemy in the worst estrategic time). This variation can explain Chaotic Goods societies what bearing a great crisis o pressure... In my system there isn´t a Law, but some laws (one for political faction or pantheon, for example). A lawul character would be ¨chaotic¨ for other character with a different allegiance (a foergin or believer of other pantheon). What is your opinion?
Troll3 04-12-07, 09:26 AM	I've always hated alignment for several reasons. 1: Players say they are an alignment, and then usually play the way they always do anyway. DM then begins shifting their alignment to what it really is (CN). 2: Spells that rely on alignment encourage everyone to be neutral (why be good when you are detected by the evils, and blasted with anti-good spells. And, undetectable alignment is like taking the 5th. 'We know you're up to something'). 3: Alignment based spells bug me. Not sure exactly why, but they are kind of all or none spells, and the DM ends up making enemies neutral if there are heavy anti-evil elements. It's fun to blast the crap out of undead, but it gets old. Solution: Make players earn alignment. I don't let them begin the game as good or Evil (must earn it). As far as the spells go, I'm not sure how to 'fix' that, but I'm frequently tempted to get rid of any spell that refers to alignment.
Seeker95 04-12-07, 09:51 AM	I like alignment for the very reasons Troll3 seems to hate it. 1: Players play their characters. I let them know what alignment that represents. If they want a different alignment, they are free to adjust their characters' behavior. 2: Spells that rely on alignment encourage strategy and tactical decisions that take into consideration the "all or nothing" nature of alignment. 3: Alignment can play a role in an encounter, but is less of an impact than actual behavioral decisions. A shrewdly neutral opponent can still defend his home with all the violence normally associated with the most evil of opponents. Solution: Make players earn alignment.I start all campaigns at level one. All PCs start with "no alignment". At level two, they get a probationary alignment -- "lowercase letters". If they have a need for a specific alignment (class restrictions or just plain desire) then they know they need to adjust their behavior. At 3rd level, they get assigned the actual alignment. If this affects class abilities, so be it. They were warned.