Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jollythehappyminotaur 06-03-07, 11:50 AM	i was looking for ideas on an alternative death penalty. i just dont like the standard resurrect the character and he loses a lvl. i dont mind the way they come back i would just prefer there was some sort of alternative penalty anyone got an idea?
Ebonarc 06-03-07, 12:00 PM	One solution I have heard of is to give the raised character a negative level instead of level loss. The negative level does not result in level loss and cannot be removed by any means, even wish or miracle, except by leveling up. The character is treated, as per the negative level rules, as being one level lower than he actually is (as if he had lost the level instead of gaining a negative one). The character also loses experience points, going down to the midpoint between of the past two levels. When he gains enough experience to gain a level, bringing him back up to where he was before, the negative level goes away, as if the character had never died and been raised. This is not really an alternative penalty per se, but it does save the headache of removing a level from a character only to regain it later.
High Octane 06-03-07, 12:59 PM	Their items lose 10% durability.
Link_L.O.Z._Warrior 06-03-07, 01:25 PM	All their ability scores (str,dex,con,int,etc.) are divided by two. This would show the fact that they still know how to do everything they did before they died, but they've become so spiritually wary from the travel between planes that they've become weaker. There is no way to bring back this lost stat points.
Ebonarc 06-03-07, 01:37 PM	All their ability scores (str,dex,con,int,etc.) are divided by two. This would show the fact that they still know how to do everything they did before they died, but they've become so spiritually wary from the travel between planes that they've become weaker. There is no way to bring back this lost stat points. That's harsh. No, that's brutal. That isn't so much a penalty or a deterrent as it is a way of making raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection worthless spells. While limiting the use of those spells can be a good idea, especially since being brought back is rather easy mechanically, this is not the way to do it. I doubt that that is your intention, but I think what is being asked for hear is alternative penalties that are equivalent to level loss, not something much, much worse.
Sareld 06-03-07, 01:41 PM	All their ability scores (str,dex,con,int,etc.) are divided by two. This would show the fact that they still know how to do everything they did before they died, but they've become so spiritually wary from the travel between planes that they've become weaker. There is no way to bring back this lost stat points. And ensure that they die again in no time. How about this; sometimes (40%?) of the times, a characters death was planned by the gods or some other powerful outsiders, either because that character is know to get in the way of their divine plans in the future, or because some higher creatures have struck a bargain over the soul of the charater in question. Raising such a character will cause the higher beings greif, and they will try to sent things right as soon as possible. Some ideas that spring to mind: - A devil is sent to kill the character and send his sould back to hell, where it has already been sold to a devil prince. The devil assasin will also have to take some equally powerful souls (the party?) with him as interest for the now angered buyer. - An angel is sent to beg the character to kill himself so that his soul can return to heaven, as the gods has forseen that the character will some day stumble across a mirror of opposition, and the characters evil twin will cause the world much pain. Should the character refuse, he will be compelled to stay away from mirrors for the rest of his life. - The character is hunted by an inevitable, that just happened to be nearby on the astral plane when the characters soul was sucked back into the material plane. - The character comes back to life with the memory of something that he has never expirienced. Clearly some divine creature is trying to tell him to do something, but the character cant find out if it is good or bad.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-03-07, 01:46 PM	All their ability scores (str,dex,con,int,etc.) are divided by two. This would show the fact that they still know how to do everything they did before they died, but they've become so spiritually wary from the travel between planes that they've become weaker. There is no way to bring back this lost stat points. :twitch: WTF? So, my fighter with 18 STR comes back from the dead with 9 STR? Hell, a character with a 20 in every stat would be turned into a commoner. I hope I misunderstood what you meant... My group uses the negative level idea mentioned above, for exactly the reasons mentioned above (saving headaches).
Timbo35918 06-03-07, 02:10 PM	In 2ed I beleive you lost a point of Constitution.
queenfange 06-03-07, 03:15 PM	Sareld has a good idea. Another option could be a quest from the deity of the cleric who resurrected you. For example, if a cleric of Pelor raised you from the dead, you have a negative level until you kill a certain number of undead menacing human lands. This requires some serious commitment from the character, but they are not burdened for the duration of their lives as long as they fulfill their responsibility.
queenfange 06-03-07, 03:16 PM	Their items lose 10% durability. Um, isn't that straight from World of Warcraft?
geekling 06-03-07, 07:07 PM	Each ressurection carries a future 10% XP penalty. This penalty can not be removed and does stack. ie. if you've been ressurected once. You will not loose a level, but you will only gain 90% XP. Very much like the multiclass XP penalty really.
Zelck 06-03-07, 07:49 PM	HERE is a good negative level-based dying penalty rule used by one of the designers of the game..
Ebonarc 06-03-07, 10:40 PM	HERE is a good negative level-based dying penalty rule used by one of the designers of the game.. I am having trouble loading that page (although I'm not sure if its the link or my browser). Is it the one from Andy Collins's website? If so, that's the one that I based my earlier post on (from memory, so it may not be exact). It's a good rule
Johnny_Angel 06-03-07, 11:14 PM	Each ressurection carries a future 10% XP penalty. This penalty can not be removed and does stack. ie. if you've been ressurected once. You will not loose a level, but you will only gain 90% XP. Very much like the multiclass XP penalty really. I actually like that idea.
Forgotten_Warrior 06-03-07, 11:24 PM	Each ressurection carries a future 10% XP penalty. This penalty can not be removed and does stack. ie. if you've been ressurected once. You will not loose a level, but you will only gain 90% XP. Very much like the multiclass XP penalty really. What would happen if a character died eleven times? I hope there wouldn't be any negative XP.
Ebonarc 06-03-07, 11:35 PM	What would happen if a character died eleven times? I hope there wouldn't be any negative XP. I think that with the 10th death, it would be like a first level character being raised multiple times and losing Constitution points. Once the character cannot pay the penalty, they cannot be raised.
Johnny_Angel 06-03-07, 11:37 PM	What would happen if a character died eleven times? I hope there wouldn't be any negative XP. Maybe once you die that many times you start getting negative XP to reflect the fact that your soul is weak from dying so many times. At this point maybe your soul would refuse to return to your body or not have the strength to return to your body.
Johnny_Angel 06-03-07, 11:37 PM	I think that with the 10th death, it would be like a first level character being raised multiple times and losing Constitution points. Once the character cannot pay the penalty, they cannot be raised. That's what I was thinking.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-03-07, 11:38 PM	And just like that situation - only now it's all the time - no one's going to want to take the option of resurrection because it's long-term foolish to accept a permanent crippling like that. Given that death happens easily and is supposed to be easily countered - only now it's just happening easily - you've pretty much ensured that as levels progress your party continuity is going to be shot all to pieces.
Johnny_Angel 06-03-07, 11:42 PM	And just like that situation - only now it's all the time - no one's going to want to take the option of resurrection because it's long-term foolish to accept a permanent crippling like that. Given that death happens easily and is supposed to be easily countered - only now it's just happening easily - you've pretty much ensured that as levels progress your party continuity is going to be shot all to pieces. Well, that's why it's an alternate rule. It's just a different school of thought. I like the idea that death has some lasting effects. Death is supposed to be...well, deadly. I do see your point though; it would suck after dying a few times to hardly get any XP. Maybe the CON loss that was mentioned would be better. I would like to hear some more alternatives.
Ebonarc 06-03-07, 11:45 PM	And just like that situation - only now it's all the time - no one's going to want to take the option of resurrection because it's long-term foolish to accept a permanent crippling like that. Given that death happens easily and is supposed to be easily countered - only now it's just happening easily - you've pretty much ensured that as levels progress your party continuity is going to be shot all to pieces. Agreed. I think that this thread has proven that any mechanical alternate penalties we think up (other than the negative level one others and I have mentioned:D ) will not prove viable. I now propose that we brainstorm flavor-based ones. I cannot think of any right now, but here is a thought to channel our creativity: A common penalty I have heard (I think it has been mentioned in this thread) is that the raised character must go on a quest for the deity of the cleric who raised him/her. What kind of quests (either deity-specific or general) might those be.
Noon 06-04-07, 12:19 AM	Your loved one dies. It's not connected in anyway - it's pure meta game mechanics - you die, someone you care about dies. If you didn't have a loved one, you can't be raised - and hell, who cares about that anyway - no one loved you!
StoneStokes 06-04-07, 12:38 AM	...or...when you are raised from the dead, someone, whom you do not know, is banished to hell. However, you must keep in mind, this rule applies to all creatures in the campaign setting. At some point someone, who does not know you, is going to be raised from the dead... (The above idea is not original, I stole it from a sci-fi show, maybe it was The Twilight Zone).
Johnny_Angel 06-04-07, 12:48 AM	One DM I played with had a rule that you could only be brought back from the dead 3 times; after that your soul refused to come back -barring some really extraordinary reason; possible divine intervention of the most extreme kind.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-04-07, 01:15 AM	I'm a little too tired right now to put serious thought into alternative approaches, but there are several things that I can think of that need to be avoided. Anything which is permanent or irreversible won't work. At that point you're better off to trash the character and bring in a new one. Permanent Con loss, permanent XP penalty, permanent anything - no good. Anything which messes with the theme or image of the character won't work, either. This is a nearly sure-fire way to antagonize the player of said character, since this is something which is tacitly supposed to be under their control and now they're stuck with a character that isn't thematically what they wanted anymore. Unnatural auras, unshakeable chills, disfiguring scars, and so on - no good. "Only X times" limits aren't going to be viable either, since they essentially just postpone the problem. In general, anything which severely impacts the survivability of the character isn't going to fly either, since that just creates a death spiral of getting killed over and over and getting weaker each time.
Timbo35918 06-04-07, 01:42 AM	You could tell your players to not die so much. Dying seems like it sucks, and I try to avoid it whenever possible in life and in game. If you are on your tenth rezz, maybe there is a different problem that needs addressing, like not checking for traps, or not knowing when a good time to run away is.
Mordent_Sage 06-04-07, 03:02 AM	Maybe we could come at this from a different angle. Instead of different penalties for being raised, try different ways of raising. If you make raising very difficult or expensive (more expensive than it already is), then you can remove the death penalty and keep balance. Problem with that is, if it tkaes a quest to raise someone, that person will need something to do for those session(s). Wasn't there a campaign setting that had PCs being ghosts when they died? Manifest or something.
Ertai Planeswalker 06-04-07, 03:16 AM	On the other hand though, returning from the dead should be very hard to do. Otherwise, by the time the party is around 10th level, there will be a recurring villain around every corner.
lantan_gnome 06-04-07, 03:33 AM	Conjuration (Healing) Level: Clr 5 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Touch Target: Dead creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) material Component member of the same race needs to go in your place. Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp. maybe somthing else...
Johnny_Angel 06-04-07, 03:47 AM	On the other hand though, returning from the dead should be very hard to do. Otherwise, by the time the party is around 10th level, there will be a recurring villain around every corner. This is my reason for wanting death to be a little more severe. DM: ...and your sword pierces the armor of Bob The Dread Lord; he crumples to the ground under the force of your finak blow. PCs: Yay! Finally, it took us months to track him down; now the world is safe! [a week later] PC: I'm going to see what's going on with our drinks. We order a round of ale about on hour ago. DM: You walk over to the bar; the stench of death leads your eyes to the floor where your eyes find the dead body of the barkeep. A cold hand touches your shoulder, and you hear the voice of Dread Lord Bob... DL Bob: Thirsty? PC: ...I thought you were dead? DL Bob: Fools! My cousin's roommate knows the resurrection spell. PC: Damn it! *battle ensues, Dread Lord Bob gets killed again* [6 months later] DM: ...you're ambushed by a group of Orcs; they take you prisoner. You're now locked in a cage. To your horror and dismay, Dread Lord Bob walks into the room and begins to speak. DL Bob: Finally, I will have my revenge! PCs: But we killed you...twice! DL Bob: Ha Ha! You thought by killing me and then killing my cousin's roommate that you could stop me for good; what you didn't know was that my cousin learned the spell from his roommate; my cousin now knows how to cast the spell too. PCs: Damn it!
StoneStokes 06-04-07, 04:04 AM	Johnny Angel, that happens to my party...a lot! We now have a Standard Operating Procedure that usually involves decapitation, murky waters teeming with hungry unknown horrors, pools of boiling acid, lakes of molten lava, and/or bottomless pits. I don't think any of our current enemies have friends who know true resurrection...yet.
vegetalss4 06-04-07, 04:25 AM	This is my reason for wanting death to be a little more severe. DM: ...and your sword pierces the armor of Bob The Dread Lord; he crumples to the ground under the force of your finak blow. PCs: Yay! Finally, it took us months to track him down; now the world is safe! [a week later] PC: I'm going to see what's going on with our drinks. We order a round of ale about on hour ago. DM: You walk over to the bar; the stench of death leads your eyes to the floor where your eyes find the dead body of the barkeep. A cold hand touches your shoulder, and you hear the voice of Dread Lord Bob... DL Bob: Thirsty? PC: ...I thought you were dead? DL Bob: Fools! My cousin's roommate knows the resurrection spell. PC: Damn it! *battle ensues, Dread Lord Bob gets killed again* [6 months later] DM: ...you're ambushed by a group of Orcs; they take you prisoner. You're now locked in a cage. To your horror and dismay, Dread Lord Bob walks into the room and begins to speak. DL Bob: Finally, I will have my revenge! PCs: But we killed you...twice! DL Bob: Ha Ha! You thought by killing me and then killing my cousin's roommate that you could stop me for good; what you didn't know was that my cousin learned the spell from his roommate; my cousin now knows how to cast the spell too. PCs: Damn it! and thats when you start casting trap the soul ;)
navar100 06-04-07, 04:48 AM	i was looking for ideas on an alternative death penalty. i just dont like the standard resurrect the character and he loses a lvl. i dont mind the way they come back i would just prefer there was some sort of alternative penalty anyone got an idea? My DM uses a house rule. You keep your level. You instead lose (your level -1) x 1,000 XP. Even if brings you to lower amount than the minimum required for your level, you still retain your level. It's just a number. The physical number of XP you need to gain a level remains the same. We like leveling. Losing the XP means having to wait that much longer, but we like not having to lose abilties we already got.
BlaineTog 06-04-07, 05:12 AM	My DM uses a house rule. You keep your level. You instead lose (your level -1) x 1,000 XP. Even if brings you to lower amount than the minimum required for your level, you still retain your level. It's just a number. The physical number of XP you need to gain a level remains the same. We like leveling. Losing the XP means having to wait that much longer, but we like not having to lose abilties we already got.I think that that's probably the best solution, more or less. De-leveling your character is just a major pain in the butt, anyway, given how very much erasing and re-writing you would have to do. Now personally, I've never ressurected a character; my group tends to just pretend ressurection doesn't exist. Makes death more real, if you will. But that's just us.
geekling 06-04-07, 05:37 AM	Some just don't fancy the idea of characters popping in and out of the afterlife like a bleeping jo-jo. Find that the whole thing of death only being a temporary inconvenience overcome by coughing up a bit of cash rather silly. Prefer that yes, a ressurection comes with a permanent price. That while there is an option to bring back a character a player have an attachement to, it is not the norm and it is not something to undertake lightly - at least not more than once or twice for the same character. (Although a 10% penalty isn't that much really. No really, over the course of a level, once you reach mid to high-levels, you'll probably have 'lost' out on less XP than the characters that cast spells with an XP cost, or craft magic items.) No revolving door to Hades and all of that jazz.
High Octane 06-04-07, 02:05 PM	Um, isn't that straight from World of Warcraft? LIES!!!
DaidojiTaidoru 06-04-07, 02:18 PM	At the time the party gets Raise Dead everyone else is packing Slay Living, which means theres a 5% chance (1 is an auto fail) that in any particular encounter with a cleric someone is just going to die. It just gets worse as time passes and the number of Save or Dies racks up. Thus if you really want to make death more of an inconvenience you should probably start house ruling the vast number of death effects in the game first. As for problems with recurring villains (or heros), that's not an issue until 9th level spells start getting chucked about because all you need to keep someone from being fixed by anything short of True Resurrection is some wood, oil, flint and steel. Always cremate the bodies.
StormKnight 06-04-07, 04:23 PM	Rather than a permanent 10% experience loss or a level loss, you could say they only gain half experience. However, the other half goes toward paying off a "debt" equal to the XP value needed to reach the next level from your current level. Once this is paid off, then penalty goes away. Example: You are level 4. It takes 5000 XP to go from level 4 to level 5, so if you die and are raised, you must pay "pay off" 5000 XP. If you then earned 1000 XP in a session, you would only get 500 XP, and your debt would be reduced to 4500 XP. This "effectively" costs the character a level, but spreads it out over time and doesn't require revising any stats. One could think of it as the disorientation of being brought back to the world and trying to readjust.
jollythehappyminotaur 06-04-07, 05:26 PM	the idea that higher lvl characters can just keep coming back is stupid. someone put it as if they are just popping in and out of the after life. honestly the villains in the game would never die. at higher lvls they can die all they want and be resurrected by a cleric in the party or other ways. so ive decided. resurrection spells do not exists in my campaign the only way to come back is via a scroll of resurrection. and im not using the one from the DMG. My scroll of res brings back one willing soul to there body and they lose -2 to a random stat. the item is very rare and also very expensive. they may also lose a little XP. say bye bye true res and res. yet ill let remain its just funny.
queenfange 06-04-07, 07:19 PM	LIES!!! :rofl: Good one. Geez, I'm posting on DnD forums. I'm a nerd. I know about WoW too, obviously. That said, the ideas seem really good that other people have posted. I personally like the (level-1)*1000 xp penalty (sorry I forgot who posted it, but cookies to you).
jollythehappyminotaur 06-04-07, 07:26 PM	come on people lets not get off topic.... I hate WoW with a passion lets not mix WoW and DND here or else i may have to hunt you down in your sleep and..... well you get the point
navar100 06-04-07, 08:07 PM	Some just don't fancy the idea of characters popping in and out of the afterlife like a bleeping jo-jo. Find that the whole thing of death only being a temporary inconvenience overcome by coughing up a bit of cash rather silly. Prefer that yes, a ressurection comes with a permanent price. That while there is an option to bring back a character a player have an attachement to, it is not the norm and it is not something to undertake lightly - at least not more than once or twice for the same character. (Although a 10% penalty isn't that much really. No really, over the course of a level, once you reach mid to high-levels, you'll probably have 'lost' out on less XP than the characters that cast spells with an XP cost, or craft magic items.) No revolving door to Hades and all of that jazz. If PCs are dieing so much that this revolving door practice is so noticeable, the problem is not resurrection. Either the DM is purposely killing the characters, the players are not caring about the characters, or both. The material component was increased so much from 3.0 to 3.5 to discourage players from being flippant about their characters because before it "only" cost 500gp to get raised, chump change. Apparently the level loss was not a hindrance enough. When DMs design adversaries that are fair and players actually care about their characters, then character death will be rare. Then the level loss will mean something. Then resurrection will be a rare thing. Also because of caring about characters a player may prefer to play a new one because coming back from the dead might cheapen his perspective of the character.
jollythehappyminotaur 06-04-07, 08:23 PM	in the past i have had players who dont care too much for their characters because it is so easy to come back thats the prob...
jollythehappyminotaur 06-04-07, 08:24 PM	and that doesnt make me a bad DM im just trying to improve my DMing skills and become a better one god damn critics on these boards
Sphyre 06-04-07, 08:49 PM	Their items lose 10% durability. Um, isn't that straight from World of Warcraft? And about 20 other RPGs.... Why is it that only the most popular game gets credit and everyone else is a rip off? I make them have to go back to their corpse and pick it up, and then they have to repair their items at Charsi :tongue:
navar100 06-04-07, 09:03 PM	in the past i have had players who dont care too much for their characters because it is so easy to come back thats the prob... and that doesnt make me a bad DM im just trying to improve my DMing skills and become a better one god damn critics on these boards I did allow for the players being the problem. :P
Ebonarc 06-04-07, 09:40 PM	DM: ...and your sword pierces the armor of Bob The Dread Lord; he crumples to the ground under the force of your finak blow. PCs: Yay! Finally, it took us months to track him down; now the world is safe! [a week later] PC: I'm going to see what's going on with our drinks. We order a round of ale about on hour ago. DM: You walk over to the bar; the stench of death leads your eyes to the floor where your eyes find the dead body of the barkeep. A cold hand touches your shoulder, and you hear the voice of Dread Lord Bob... DL Bob: Thirsty? PC: ...I thought you were dead? DL Bob: Fools! My cousin's roommate knows the resurrection spell. PC: Damn it! *battle ensues, Dread Lord Bob gets killed again* [6 months later] DM: ...you're ambushed by a group of Orcs; they take you prisoner. You're now locked in a cage. To your horror and dismay, Dread Lord Bob walks into the room and begins to speak. DL Bob: Finally, I will have my revenge! PCs: But we killed you...twice! DL Bob: Ha Ha! You thought by killing me and then killing my cousin's roommate that you could stop me for good; what you didn't know was that my cousin learned the spell from his roommate; my cousin now knows how to cast the spell too. PCs: Damn it! I have a general rule that a minor villain (one that has been the villain of only one adventure) should not come back even once. A villain who has already been the villain over a series of adventures (and is thus just tougher in an in-game sense than the minor villains) can come back once. A major villain--we are 5 levels of the campaign and up before they die, here--can come back no more than twice, and then must do so in different ways. Usually, the first one is by a simpleraise dead cast by a minion, lackey, or ally, and for the second, they become undead, or the slave or lieutenant of another villain who has, unintentionally or intentionally on my part, proven even tougher.