Alternative to a Class System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternative to a Class System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
duckthatquacks
01-27-06, 06:53 PM A few weeks ago, while reading these forums, I saw a post complaining about the prevalence of prestige classes over core classes. Somehow, the post lead to an idea for a non-class system, wherein at every level you got points which you could then spend on various abilities. This seemed like a good idea to me, so I decided to steal it. I have developed a "prototype" of such a system, although I have included only the four basic classes-- fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue. I assigned abilities point values such that each of these classes had the same point total (225) at level 20. Any feedback on this system would be great.

Anyway, in this system, you get points at every level, which you spend to buy whatever abilities you want. Unspent points carry over to future levels. "Freebies" are things automatically gained for free. Feats are still gained normally.

At Level 1:
Points Received: 35
Freebies: +1/2 BAB, 1d4 hit die, 1 high save, 2 low saves, 5 class skills, (2+int modifier)*4 skill points, limited weapon proficiency.

At Each Additional Level:
Points Received: 10
Freebies: +1/2 BAB, 1d4 hit die, 1 high save, 2 low saves, 2 + int modifier skill points

Abilities
The following are the different abilities and whatnot that you can get

Short Version

Ability Cost
Light Armor Prof 4
Medium Armor Prof 4
Heavy Armor Prof 4
Shield Prof 4
Tower Shield Prof 2
Simple Weapon Prof 4
Martial Weapon Prof 4
Rogue Weapon Prof 2
Wizard Weapon Prof 0
d10 hit die 3
d8 hit die 2
d6 hit die 1
d4 hit die 0
+1 BAB 3
+3/4 BAB 1
+ 1/2 BAB 0
High Save 1
Class Skill 1
2 Skilla/Level 1
Turn Undead 1
Divine Spellcasting 5
Arcane Spellcasting 5
Fighter Feat 7
Wizard Feat 15
Rogue Feat/Ability 8
Summon Familiar 11
Familiar +1 1
Scribe Scroll 15
Sneak Attack 3
Trapfinding 8
Trap Sense 2
Uncanny Dodge 2
Imp.Uncanny Dodge 2
Evasion 5

Proficiencies

Light Armor Proficiency - 4 points
The character is proficient with light armor.

Medium Armor Proficiency - 4 points
The character is proficient with medium armor. Requires light armor proficiency.

Heavy Armor Proficiency - 4 points
The character is proficient with heavy armor. Requires medium armor proficiency.

Shield Proficiency - 4 points
The character is proficient with shields (except tower shields).

Tower Shield Proficiency - 2 points
The character is proficient with tower shields. Requires shield proficiency.

Limited Weapon Proficiency - Free
The character is proficient with the club, daggers, heavy and light crossbows, and quarterstaff (like a wizard). Automatically gained at level 1.

Simple Weapon Proficiency - 4 points
The character is proficient with all simple weapons. Can only be purchased at level 1.

Martial Weapon Proficiency - 4 points
The character is proficient with all martial weapons. Requires simple weapon proficiency. Can only be purchased at level 1.

Rogue Weapon Proficiency - 2 points
The character is proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Requires simple weapon proficiency. Can only be purchased at level 1.

Hit Dice

d4 - Free
The character gains a d4 hit die for free at every level.

d6 - 1 point
The character gains a d6 hit die instead of a d4 for this level.

d8 - 2 points
The character gains a d8 hit die instead of a d4 for this level.

d10 - 3 points
The character gains a d10 hit die instead of a d4 for this level.

Skills

Class Skill - 1 point
The character makes 1 skill a class skill. Each character gets five free class skills at first level.

2 Skill Points - 1 point
The character gains 2 additional skill points (or 8 at level 1). Each character gets skill points equal to 2 + int modifier for free at each level.

Base Attack Bonus

+ 1/2 Base Attack Bonus - Free
The character's base attack bonus automatically increases by 1/2 at each level.

+ 3/4 Base Attack Bonus - 1 point
The character's base attack bonus increases by 3/4 instead of 1/2 for this level.

+ 1 Base Attack Bonus - 3 points
The character's base attack bonus increases by 1 instead of 1/2 for this level.

Saves

Low Save - Free
At each level, the character's saves all increase by 1/3

High Save - 1 point
One of the character's saves increases by 1/2 (or 2.5 if this is taken at level 1) instead of by 1/3,. The character gains one free high save at each level.

Bonus Feats (A character may not gain more than 1 bonus feat at any given level)

Fighter Bonus Feat - 7 points
The character gains 1 bonus feat off of the fighter list.

Wizard Bonus Feat - 15 points
The character gains 1 bonus feat off of the wizard list.

Rogue Ability/Bonus Feat - 10 points
The character gains 1 of the rogue special abilities or one bonus feat. Requires level 10.

Spellcasting (A character may not gain more than one increase to spellcasting at any given level)

Arcane Spellcasting +1 - 5 points
The character gains increased spells known and spells per day as if he had gained a level of wizard.

Divine Spellcasting +1 - 5 points
The character gains increased spells known and spells per day as if he had gained a level of cleric.

Other (An individual ability may not be taken more than once per level.There should probably be some other limits on these, but I haven't worked them out yet)

Summon Familiar - 11 points
The character may obtain a familiar the way a wizard can

Improve Familiar - 1 point
The character's familiar increases in power as if he had gained a level of wizard.

Turn Undead - 1 point
The character turns undead as a cleric of a level equal to the number of times he takes this ability.

Scribe Scroll - 15 points
The character gains the scribe scroll feat.

Sneak Attack +1d6 - 3 points
The character's sneak attack damage increases by 1d6. The character's can only take this ability a number of times equal to one half his level (rounded up).

Trapfinding - 8 points
The character may find and disarm traps like a rogue.

Trap Sense - 2 points
The character gains a +1 bonus to AC and reflex saves vs traps.

Uncanny Dodge - 2 points
The character keeps his dex bonus to AC when caught flat-footed.

Improved Uncanny Dodge - 2 points
The character suffers no penalties for being flanked. Requires uncanny dodge.

Evasion - 5 points
If the character makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the character is wearing light armor or armor. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of evasion.

So there it is. Feel free to critique it. If you want to get very serious (and helpful), try to abuse the system and make the most ridiculously overpowered character that you can. I'll try to incorporate any advice I get (and maybe also add in some other classes) next time I'm feeling productive.
Lina_Inverse
01-27-06, 07:42 PM So many many people have posted things like this.
And let me be frank.

Every single one is unbalanced.
Point systems can -never- be balanced.
celtredleg
01-27-06, 08:17 PM Classless and levelless systems have been poping up almost as fast as DnD came out. One of them, Runequest was being played in a private group back in the late sixties. After DnD came out it was published within a few years.

None of them have ever cam close to challenging DnD in terms of sales, which probably translates into popularety.

Nice to put in the work, but outside your own group it isnt likely to make much splash. Sorry
DM Dave
01-27-06, 10:41 PM I agree with the other two posters... this has been done so many time... for an extreme example take a look at the HERO System... Its the ultimate in point buy and character customization. Never heard of it? Here's why:

1) Balancing encounters: With a point buy system its difficult to determine exactly what the capabilities of a particular character are. Remember, if your customizing your characters this way, then you must do so for their opponents... monsters too!

With a class system, when you say, "I have an 8th level wizard" that means something in game terms that can be translated into a numeric gauge of the character's relative strengths and weaknesses. Doing so with a point buy system is a guess a best, and dang near impossible.

2) Leveling is fun! From a player's standpoint making a level means something. More hit points, class abilities, skills and feats. All at once! While getting things gradually is more realistic, its not nearly as much fun as getting a whole bunch of new stuff all at once, and it reinforces the sense of accomplishment when you make a level.

3) Its easy to understand. As a reformed hero system player let me tell you, trying to explain point buy to newbies is a nightmare. If its too difficult to learn it will scare away new players... I refer you back to the Hero System as an example of a great idea that few use. Selling games is a business, and a business survives by expanding its customer base.

Thus, good work... I know what you did took a lot of time... I did the same thing (along with a bunch of other game deigners and a generation of gamers)back in the first edition days... 20 years ago. :D
Darkuwa
01-27-06, 11:35 PM I dont see anything about leveless gaming in the OP's post. It looks more like the ultimate create your own class style system. I for one like it.
Ut-Napishtim
01-27-06, 11:47 PM I don't know that I agree with DM Dave. But yes, there is already a point system and it is GURPS, praise be to it's name. The sad thing is I haven't bought so much as the core books for the new edition. Why? Because nobody's willing to learn something new. For me I'm running d20 CoC, D&D, playing Star Wars d20, etc. I love GURPS, and have been enjoying it almost as long as I have been enjoying D&D. At the end of the day though user-friendly = product sales, and GURPS is even more difficult to GM than it is to play (anyone who has tried it will appreciate the wisdom of this statement). If you want liberation then the basic .pdf rules are free at their site, but don't expect to find anyone to play with you. The few moments that I have were the highlights of my gaming career, but like all good things they were fleeting moments at best.
:weep:
celtredleg
01-27-06, 11:51 PM I should add that I lved Runequest when it cam out, and it is still my favorate game ever. And I get to play about once every 3 years.

Classless seems so cool, but for some reason, or maybe a lot of reasons, they just are not popular. I wish it was different, but there you have it.
DM Dave
01-28-06, 02:29 AM I dont see anything about leveless gaming in the OP's post. It looks more like the ultimate create your own class style system. I for one like it.

Unspent points carry over to future levels. Which means that you can't gauge the strength or weakness of the character based on level. It depends on the choices the player made with his point buys... effectively making the use of level moot.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
01-28-06, 02:35 AM I feel obligated to point out that the White Wolf system used in Exalted and their World of Darkness games are point buy... but anyone who tells you they're balanced should be directed to a bridge in Brooklyn I'm selling. Imbalance isn't necessarily bad, but your group had better be damned mature to deal with it.

That said, the very powergaming that the point buy-based system is meant to stop runs even more rampant in such systems. PrC's have prereq's to meet, minimum levels needed to get them. Point buy has no such thing. In the example posted in this thread, there's not even a limit on BAB, Saves, or HD. A level 2 character with a total of 45 points may have a +11/+5/+1 BAB, high saves across the board for both levels, Martial weapon proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, 10 bonus skill points, and 6d10 HD. If this character is also a human that's another 5 skill points. This hypothetical human also has two feats entirely outside of his class.

This character has an insane ammount of HD (bear in mind that HP isn't counted per level, but by total HD, so the con mod applies six times... it's just that the standard system mostly involves character levels equalling HD), an obscene BAB, more skills than a fighter, high saves in all three categories, and still has two feats thanks to its race. This is a character that would compare favorably against a level 5 standard character, for the most part. If you wanted to you could drop the BAB a bit, too, in order to get higher saves to compare more or less evenly in almost every way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
duckthatquacks 01-27-06, 06:53 PM	A few weeks ago, while reading these forums, I saw a post complaining about the prevalence of prestige classes over core classes. Somehow, the post lead to an idea for a non-class system, wherein at every level you got points which you could then spend on various abilities. This seemed like a good idea to me, so I decided to steal it. I have developed a "prototype" of such a system, although I have included only the four basic classes-- fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue. I assigned abilities point values such that each of these classes had the same point total (225) at level 20. Any feedback on this system would be great. Anyway, in this system, you get points at every level, which you spend to buy whatever abilities you want. Unspent points carry over to future levels. "Freebies" are things automatically gained for free. Feats are still gained normally. At Level 1: Points Received: 35 Freebies: +1/2 BAB, 1d4 hit die, 1 high save, 2 low saves, 5 class skills, (2+int modifier)*4 skill points, limited weapon proficiency. At Each Additional Level: Points Received: 10 Freebies: +1/2 BAB, 1d4 hit die, 1 high save, 2 low saves, 2 + int modifier skill points Abilities The following are the different abilities and whatnot that you can get Short Version Ability Cost Light Armor Prof 4 Medium Armor Prof 4 Heavy Armor Prof 4 Shield Prof 4 Tower Shield Prof 2 Simple Weapon Prof 4 Martial Weapon Prof 4 Rogue Weapon Prof 2 Wizard Weapon Prof 0 d10 hit die 3 d8 hit die 2 d6 hit die 1 d4 hit die 0 +1 BAB 3 +3/4 BAB 1 + 1/2 BAB 0 High Save 1 Class Skill 1 2 Skilla/Level 1 Turn Undead 1 Divine Spellcasting 5 Arcane Spellcasting 5 Fighter Feat 7 Wizard Feat 15 Rogue Feat/Ability 8 Summon Familiar 11 Familiar +1 1 Scribe Scroll 15 Sneak Attack 3 Trapfinding 8 Trap Sense 2 Uncanny Dodge 2 Imp.Uncanny Dodge 2 Evasion 5 Proficiencies Light Armor Proficiency - 4 points The character is proficient with light armor. Medium Armor Proficiency - 4 points The character is proficient with medium armor. Requires light armor proficiency. Heavy Armor Proficiency - 4 points The character is proficient with heavy armor. Requires medium armor proficiency. Shield Proficiency - 4 points The character is proficient with shields (except tower shields). Tower Shield Proficiency - 2 points The character is proficient with tower shields. Requires shield proficiency. Limited Weapon Proficiency - Free The character is proficient with the club, daggers, heavy and light crossbows, and quarterstaff (like a wizard). Automatically gained at level 1. Simple Weapon Proficiency - 4 points The character is proficient with all simple weapons. Can only be purchased at level 1. Martial Weapon Proficiency - 4 points The character is proficient with all martial weapons. Requires simple weapon proficiency. Can only be purchased at level 1. Rogue Weapon Proficiency - 2 points The character is proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Requires simple weapon proficiency. Can only be purchased at level 1. Hit Dice d4 - Free The character gains a d4 hit die for free at every level. d6 - 1 point The character gains a d6 hit die instead of a d4 for this level. d8 - 2 points The character gains a d8 hit die instead of a d4 for this level. d10 - 3 points The character gains a d10 hit die instead of a d4 for this level. Skills Class Skill - 1 point The character makes 1 skill a class skill. Each character gets five free class skills at first level. 2 Skill Points - 1 point The character gains 2 additional skill points (or 8 at level 1). Each character gets skill points equal to 2 + int modifier for free at each level. Base Attack Bonus + 1/2 Base Attack Bonus - Free The character's base attack bonus automatically increases by 1/2 at each level. + 3/4 Base Attack Bonus - 1 point The character's base attack bonus increases by 3/4 instead of 1/2 for this level. + 1 Base Attack Bonus - 3 points The character's base attack bonus increases by 1 instead of 1/2 for this level. Saves Low Save - Free At each level, the character's saves all increase by 1/3 High Save - 1 point One of the character's saves increases by 1/2 (or 2.5 if this is taken at level 1) instead of by 1/3,. The character gains one free high save at each level. Bonus Feats (A character may not gain more than 1 bonus feat at any given level) Fighter Bonus Feat - 7 points The character gains 1 bonus feat off of the fighter list. Wizard Bonus Feat - 15 points The character gains 1 bonus feat off of the wizard list. Rogue Ability/Bonus Feat - 10 points The character gains 1 of the rogue special abilities or one bonus feat. Requires level 10. Spellcasting (A character may not gain more than one increase to spellcasting at any given level) Arcane Spellcasting +1 - 5 points The character gains increased spells known and spells per day as if he had gained a level of wizard. Divine Spellcasting +1 - 5 points The character gains increased spells known and spells per day as if he had gained a level of cleric. Other (An individual ability may not be taken more than once per level.There should probably be some other limits on these, but I haven't worked them out yet) Summon Familiar - 11 points The character may obtain a familiar the way a wizard can Improve Familiar - 1 point The character's familiar increases in power as if he had gained a level of wizard. Turn Undead - 1 point The character turns undead as a cleric of a level equal to the number of times he takes this ability. Scribe Scroll - 15 points The character gains the scribe scroll feat. Sneak Attack +1d6 - 3 points The character's sneak attack damage increases by 1d6. The character's can only take this ability a number of times equal to one half his level (rounded up). Trapfinding - 8 points The character may find and disarm traps like a rogue. Trap Sense - 2 points The character gains a +1 bonus to AC and reflex saves vs traps. Uncanny Dodge - 2 points The character keeps his dex bonus to AC when caught flat-footed. Improved Uncanny Dodge - 2 points The character suffers no penalties for being flanked. Requires uncanny dodge. Evasion - 5 points If the character makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the character is wearing light armor or armor. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of evasion. So there it is. Feel free to critique it. If you want to get very serious (and helpful), try to abuse the system and make the most ridiculously overpowered character that you can. I'll try to incorporate any advice I get (and maybe also add in some other classes) next time I'm feeling productive.
Lina_Inverse 01-27-06, 07:42 PM	So many many people have posted things like this. And let me be frank. Every single one is unbalanced. Point systems can -never- be balanced.
celtredleg 01-27-06, 08:17 PM	Classless and levelless systems have been poping up almost as fast as DnD came out. One of them, Runequest was being played in a private group back in the late sixties. After DnD came out it was published within a few years. None of them have ever cam close to challenging DnD in terms of sales, which probably translates into popularety. Nice to put in the work, but outside your own group it isnt likely to make much splash. Sorry
DM Dave 01-27-06, 10:41 PM	I agree with the other two posters... this has been done so many time... for an extreme example take a look at the HERO System... Its the ultimate in point buy and character customization. Never heard of it? Here's why: 1) Balancing encounters: With a point buy system its difficult to determine exactly what the capabilities of a particular character are. Remember, if your customizing your characters this way, then you must do so for their opponents... monsters too! With a class system, when you say, "I have an 8th level wizard" that means something in game terms that can be translated into a numeric gauge of the character's relative strengths and weaknesses. Doing so with a point buy system is a guess a best, and dang near impossible. 2) Leveling is fun! From a player's standpoint making a level means something. More hit points, class abilities, skills and feats. All at once! While getting things gradually is more realistic, its not nearly as much fun as getting a whole bunch of new stuff all at once, and it reinforces the sense of accomplishment when you make a level. 3) Its easy to understand. As a reformed hero system player let me tell you, trying to explain point buy to newbies is a nightmare. If its too difficult to learn it will scare away new players... I refer you back to the Hero System as an example of a great idea that few use. Selling games is a business, and a business survives by expanding its customer base. Thus, good work... I know what you did took a lot of time... I did the same thing (along with a bunch of other game deigners and a generation of gamers)back in the first edition days... 20 years ago. :D
Darkuwa 01-27-06, 11:35 PM	I dont see anything about leveless gaming in the OP's post. It looks more like the ultimate create your own class style system. I for one like it.
Ut-Napishtim 01-27-06, 11:47 PM	I don't know that I agree with DM Dave. But yes, there is already a point system and it is GURPS, praise be to it's name. The sad thing is I haven't bought so much as the core books for the new edition. Why? Because nobody's willing to learn something new. For me I'm running d20 CoC, D&D, playing Star Wars d20, etc. I love GURPS, and have been enjoying it almost as long as I have been enjoying D&D. At the end of the day though user-friendly = product sales, and GURPS is even more difficult to GM than it is to play (anyone who has tried it will appreciate the wisdom of this statement). If you want liberation then the basic .pdf rules are free at their site, but don't expect to find anyone to play with you. The few moments that I have were the highlights of my gaming career, but like all good things they were fleeting moments at best. :weep:
celtredleg 01-27-06, 11:51 PM	I should add that I lved Runequest when it cam out, and it is still my favorate game ever. And I get to play about once every 3 years. Classless seems so cool, but for some reason, or maybe a lot of reasons, they just are not popular. I wish it was different, but there you have it.
DM Dave 01-28-06, 02:29 AM	I dont see anything about leveless gaming in the OP's post. It looks more like the ultimate create your own class style system. I for one like it. Unspent points carry over to future levels. Which means that you can't gauge the strength or weakness of the character based on level. It depends on the choices the player made with his point buys... effectively making the use of level moot.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-28-06, 02:35 AM	I feel obligated to point out that the White Wolf system used in Exalted and their World of Darkness games are point buy... but anyone who tells you they're balanced should be directed to a bridge in Brooklyn I'm selling. Imbalance isn't necessarily bad, but your group had better be damned mature to deal with it. That said, the very powergaming that the point buy-based system is meant to stop runs even more rampant in such systems. PrC's have prereq's to meet, minimum levels needed to get them. Point buy has no such thing. In the example posted in this thread, there's not even a limit on BAB, Saves, or HD. A level 2 character with a total of 45 points may have a +11/+5/+1 BAB, high saves across the board for both levels, Martial weapon proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, 10 bonus skill points, and 6d10 HD. If this character is also a human that's another 5 skill points. This hypothetical human also has two feats entirely outside of his class. This character has an insane ammount of HD (bear in mind that HP isn't counted per level, but by total HD, so the con mod applies six times... it's just that the standard system mostly involves character levels equalling HD), an obscene BAB, more skills than a fighter, high saves in all three categories, and still has two feats thanks to its race. This is a character that would compare favorably against a level 5 standard character, for the most part. If you wanted to you could drop the BAB a bit, too, in order to get higher saves to compare more or less evenly in almost every way.