Am I a Powergamer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I a Powergamer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OmniPaul
02-09-05, 02:04 AM Recently, I've created a new character (Elf Fighter) for the campaign I play in using some sort of point buy variant as mandated by my GM.

Stats after applying racial modifiers (level 1)
Str: 11 +0
Dex: 18 +4
Con: 10 +0
Int: 13 +1
Wis: 8 -1
Cha: 16 +3

Feats:
Exotic Weapon Profieciency (Spiked Chain)
Weapon Finesse

Now, nobody has said anything yet, but I'm afraid I might be angering them anyways and that they're just too polite to say anything.

The problem lies in my relatively high modifier for disarming/sundering. My fighter uses a spiked chain and his tactics consist pretty much of just running around and disarming/sundering the enemies' weapons. Now, with a BAB of 1, weapon finesse bonus of 4, another bonus of 4 for the chain being a two handed weapon, usually another 4 for fighting smaller enemies, and spiked chain's inherent +2 bonus to disarming (if I recall correctly), I have a +15 in most favorable conditions and +11 when fighting similarly sized enemies at level 1.

Is this too much? I tried justifying it to myself by arguing that I do pretty low damage with my low strength score, I'm pretty fragile with my low constitution score, combat should be something I do well anyways because I am a fighter, and that I'm simply using the core rules to my advantage (I think). However, I'd like a second unbiased opinion

Thanks
-Paul
Asciiman
02-09-05, 02:08 AM Now I'm not saying that the spiked chain or anything is really broken, but if there is something out there that needs to be balanced, the spiked chain is it. The benefits are monsterous if you build your character that way, and you have. I'd be annoyed to have you in my party simply because I'd consider your tactics to be very, VERY cheap and taking away a lot of my fun.

Personally I say, change the chain. Get rid of it and take something else. Take anything else and all you have is a character that likes to break weapons, and I wouldn't find that abusive and I don't think anyone else would either.

You aren't cheating and are definatley not a munchkin, but yes, you do define a power gamer.
OmniPaul
02-09-05, 02:13 AM Ah, thanks for the quick reply.

The funny thing is that I didn't even plan it to happen this way. I just thought spiked chain would be cool to use and everything else just kinda fell into place that way.

Luckily, the game hasn't really gotten that far in, so I'll probably just start a fresh character.
Nomad4life
02-09-05, 02:14 AM I can’t really answer your question without knowing more about the other players, and your game world; a player with all 10’s would be a “powergamer” in a world full of nothing but characters with 3’s, and kobolds.

A good GM shouldn’t be too angry with you based only on your ability to disarm- after all, you can’t disarm claws. It depends on what he throws at you…
Asciiman
02-09-05, 02:46 AM Yeah I'll basically agree with Nomad4life, except the deciding line is more with where the rest of your group is.

If you also have a frenzied berzerker in the group, and a heirophant/druid/windwalker then maybe you aren't so overblown. However if it is an average group where the character comes first, not the abilities, then you are probably a bit overboard.

I'm not saying make a whole new character, I'm am saying however, drop the spiked chain and a whole lot of flack goes away.
was_fired
02-09-05, 03:12 AM So your okay at a single task... big deal. If the DM bothers to give a humanoid defenses against your trick your in trouble. A first level greataxe wielding barbarian with a strength of 16 base and a locking guantlet gets a +20 to resist your disarm attempt. This guy also does more damage than you. The most powerful part of the spiked chain is the capacity to trip while threatening both near and afar, and even this ends up only being very good against other humanoids.
q'afuu
02-09-05, 06:24 AM Now, with a BAB of 1, weapon finesse bonus of 4, another bonus of 4 for the chain being a two handed weapon, usually another 4 for fighting smaller enemies, and spiked chain's inherent +2 bonus to disarming (if I recall correctly), I have a +15 in most favorable conditions and +11 when fighting similarly sized enemies at level 1.
You're an elf and that means you're usually larger? Do you fight nothing but kobolds or something?

Anyway, you might do reasonably well with you disarm attempts but (you pointed this out yourself in part):
1) disarming never killed anyone. Your damage output sucks.
2) A 1st level NPC barbarian straight from the DMG will have a +8 vs your +11 to disarm, iirc. You'll win 62% of the time. Not bad, but not all that great either.
3) average damage with a spiked chain and no Str bonus is 5 - not enough to get past most weapons' hardnesses, so I can't imagine you're sundering a lot.
4) even with the elven save bonus against enchantments, your Will save is so low any decent caster will have an easy time taking you out. You can't disarm hands.
5) You have 10 hit points. A single hit by the 1st level NPC barbarian I mentioned earlier will put you in negative HPs almost 50% of the time.
NehpetsTtocs
02-09-05, 06:54 AM Well, no. I really don't see anything overly powerful with your character at all, and to be honest with you, I think spiked chain is good for fighters (at least when I consider what other classes have for abilities). It just looks like you wanted to make a highly dextrous fighter and chose to optimize him. Isn't that what everybody does with their characters?
Nomad4life
02-09-05, 07:04 AM Isn't that what everybody does with their characters?

No.

Doesn’t make it “wrong.” But no.
NehpetsTtocs
02-09-05, 07:54 AM I stand corrected then :) .
Escef
02-09-05, 08:08 AM IMX, most people tend to make their characters good at one or two things or mediocre in everything. Being good at something is fine. The problem comes when you outshine the rest of the party. The elf in question from the original poster may be a disarming machine, but he isn't a damage dealer. And, as has been stated, you can't disarm natural weapons or unarmed strikes (monks will laugh at you). Yes, you're really good at one thing. Unfortunately, that one thing is of value only under certain conditions. If the goblins have a druid in their midst you can expect to deal with creatures you can't disarm. Or a kobold sorcerer with some summon spells. Or if your enemies have pets.

I can understand getting annoyed, but so far your man is a one-trick pony. It will pass.
CzarGarrett
02-09-05, 09:10 AM I'll concur with the 'one-trick pony' idea.

You're a fighter, you should be able to fight with axes, swords, maces, spears, anything really. You've set yourself up to just use the chain.
Reinforcements
02-09-05, 09:18 AM Anyone who thinks the fighter with strength and constitution modifiers of +0 and charisma modifier of +3 is a powergamer needs to have their head examined. And subsequently smacked.
Seeker95
02-09-05, 01:00 PM I agree with Reinforcements.
If you are a power-gamer, you're not a very good one. :P
BeyondFated
02-09-05, 01:17 PM If you were in my DM's campaign, your Elf would have died before the campaign even started.If your going to keep that character, get something to up your STR and CON, stat. In my opinion, you are not a power gamer, but your on your way. Whether you view this favorably or not, is up to you.

(I will proudly admit to power gaming! And all you anti-powergamers can b*** me when your 33 page backstory 20CHA Elf Thief is killed after he fails to convince my 20STR Orc Fighter not to nbust his head in.
OmniPaul
02-09-05, 07:57 PM Thank you all for the replies

To give a bit more insight, our party consists of <digs up information>:

Halfling - Rogue (2)
Halfling Paragon(1)/Favored Soul(1)
Half-Elf - Warlock (2)
Elf - Fighter (2) <-Me
Half-Elf - Psion (2)
Half-Elf - Cleric (2)
Shifter - Monk (2)
Dwarf - Paladin (2)

Every character was generated with 32 point buy, 8 being the base score.

The campaign I'm playing in is supposed to be high-magic. We've only had about 5 sessions and the majority of the encounters were with goblins, although we've had a few humanoid encounters and we're currently going off to break up a half-orc gang.

The reader's digest version of the elf's character concept was that he really wanted to be a musician/bard/etc while growing up, but his mother forced him down the career path of fighting because he'd be shaming the bloodline (Hence the comment I made in another thread about my elf fighter hating his mother in that "You're ruining my life! I hate you" sort of way)

Since we generated our characters with point buy, I tried adjusting his stats accordingly to the story. Low strength and low constitution because fighting really wasn't in his heart, high charisma to reflect his social characteristics, low wisdom to reflect a personality quirk, and high base dexterity (to be enhanced with the elves' innate relative superiority in dexterity) to give him some chance in combat.

With the higher charisma, I took skills in perform(sing), intimidate, and handle animal which are used outside of combat (No bard songs, the character himself doesn't really utilize intimidating as a tactic, and I do not own animals).
Nardo Polo
02-09-05, 11:07 PM You know, I don't really see a problem with your character. Especially not in that party. If you really wanted to be abusive you could have done much better. I think you've got a nice UNIQUE fighter on your hands and you should play him as he stands. No one says the fighter has to carry the big sword and be stupid.

If you really wanted to maximize your potential, coordinate with one of your party memebers so that when you trip something they are right there to finish it off while it is down. There's two guys in one of my current games who have both specialized, one has done as you have and made a trip specialist with the spiked chain and the other has made a sunder specialist with a greatsword. So far they have been a very effective duo.
Asciiman
02-10-05, 05:30 AM Eight people in your party? Forgot what I typed and go nuts. With that many people you won't over shadow everyone and if you over shadow one or two, it will only be for a short while. I figured you were in the standard 4 cause you didn't say any different. So yeah, go with what you got.

In fact now that I look at it, your group is not very front end heavy. With eight PC's you only have two possible heavy tanks, you as the fighter and the paladin. So anything you do with that chain will be more just to even it out.

Yeah go with what you got. Don't change him.
PurdueDave
02-10-05, 06:50 PM I wouldn't say your a powergamer with that build. He's good at what he does but isn't the typical spiked-chain power build. Given what you listed for the party, he sounds on par with everyone else.
Keenath
02-10-05, 09:41 PM The spiked chain is just kind of a mess of a weapon. While being good at the disarm isn't a terrible thing, you might want to pick a different weapon just for the stigma factor. Try the rapier, perhaps. Or maybe you should consider switching out for a bard, since you're an elf with good charisma -- your stats are more in line with that than a straight fighter. Possibly consider multiclassing.

If you love your disarms, try a two handed weapon besides the chain. I think there's a few others that offer the disarm bonus, in fact.

If you choose to go with the multiclass fighter-bard, you should put lots of ranks into diplomacy and intimidate, and build towards a fighter who likes non-violent solutions. Disarm, then talk 'em down or scare 'em off.

Just some ideas. You aren't a powergamer, you're just holding a powergamer's weapon. The same way holding a lightsaber doesn't make you a Jedi. Anyway, you're surely not a powergamer if you're playing a fighter with a positive score in charisma!
Scipio
02-11-05, 12:49 AM I'd say you are not a powergamer. You have one piece of equipment that gives you an edge on trips and disarms, but that's all. Why not say that fighters wearing full plate are powergaming because they have an edge on not getting hit by Big Cutlery, lol. Like it has been said, those little bits of an edge are easily avoidable, try tripping a dragon, or disarming anyone with a locked gauntlet.

Oh and to the comment that not everyone optimizes their characters, that is only half true. Not everyone min/maxes however almost every player optimizes to one degree or another. Unless you routinely play 3.0 Orcish Bards with 3s in charisma dex and con. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OmniPaul 02-09-05, 02:04 AM	Recently, I've created a new character (Elf Fighter) for the campaign I play in using some sort of point buy variant as mandated by my GM. Stats after applying racial modifiers (level 1) Str: 11 +0 Dex: 18 +4 Con: 10 +0 Int: 13 +1 Wis: 8 -1 Cha: 16 +3 Feats: Exotic Weapon Profieciency (Spiked Chain) Weapon Finesse Now, nobody has said anything yet, but I'm afraid I might be angering them anyways and that they're just too polite to say anything. The problem lies in my relatively high modifier for disarming/sundering. My fighter uses a spiked chain and his tactics consist pretty much of just running around and disarming/sundering the enemies' weapons. Now, with a BAB of 1, weapon finesse bonus of 4, another bonus of 4 for the chain being a two handed weapon, usually another 4 for fighting smaller enemies, and spiked chain's inherent +2 bonus to disarming (if I recall correctly), I have a +15 in most favorable conditions and +11 when fighting similarly sized enemies at level 1. Is this too much? I tried justifying it to myself by arguing that I do pretty low damage with my low strength score, I'm pretty fragile with my low constitution score, combat should be something I do well anyways because I am a fighter, and that I'm simply using the core rules to my advantage (I think). However, I'd like a second unbiased opinion Thanks -Paul
Asciiman 02-09-05, 02:08 AM	Now I'm not saying that the spiked chain or anything is really broken, but if there is something out there that needs to be balanced, the spiked chain is it. The benefits are monsterous if you build your character that way, and you have. I'd be annoyed to have you in my party simply because I'd consider your tactics to be very, VERY cheap and taking away a lot of my fun. Personally I say, change the chain. Get rid of it and take something else. Take anything else and all you have is a character that likes to break weapons, and I wouldn't find that abusive and I don't think anyone else would either. You aren't cheating and are definatley not a munchkin, but yes, you do define a power gamer.
OmniPaul 02-09-05, 02:13 AM	Ah, thanks for the quick reply. The funny thing is that I didn't even plan it to happen this way. I just thought spiked chain would be cool to use and everything else just kinda fell into place that way. Luckily, the game hasn't really gotten that far in, so I'll probably just start a fresh character.
Nomad4life 02-09-05, 02:14 AM	I can’t really answer your question without knowing more about the other players, and your game world; a player with all 10’s would be a “powergamer” in a world full of nothing but characters with 3’s, and kobolds. A good GM shouldn’t be too angry with you based only on your ability to disarm- after all, you can’t disarm claws. It depends on what he throws at you…
Asciiman 02-09-05, 02:46 AM	Yeah I'll basically agree with Nomad4life, except the deciding line is more with where the rest of your group is. If you also have a frenzied berzerker in the group, and a heirophant/druid/windwalker then maybe you aren't so overblown. However if it is an average group where the character comes first, not the abilities, then you are probably a bit overboard. I'm not saying make a whole new character, I'm am saying however, drop the spiked chain and a whole lot of flack goes away.
was_fired 02-09-05, 03:12 AM	So your okay at a single task... big deal. If the DM bothers to give a humanoid defenses against your trick your in trouble. A first level greataxe wielding barbarian with a strength of 16 base and a locking guantlet gets a +20 to resist your disarm attempt. This guy also does more damage than you. The most powerful part of the spiked chain is the capacity to trip while threatening both near and afar, and even this ends up only being very good against other humanoids.
q'afuu 02-09-05, 06:24 AM	Now, with a BAB of 1, weapon finesse bonus of 4, another bonus of 4 for the chain being a two handed weapon, usually another 4 for fighting smaller enemies, and spiked chain's inherent +2 bonus to disarming (if I recall correctly), I have a +15 in most favorable conditions and +11 when fighting similarly sized enemies at level 1. You're an elf and that means you're usually larger? Do you fight nothing but kobolds or something? Anyway, you might do reasonably well with you disarm attempts but (you pointed this out yourself in part): 1) disarming never killed anyone. Your damage output sucks. 2) A 1st level NPC barbarian straight from the DMG will have a +8 vs your +11 to disarm, iirc. You'll win 62% of the time. Not bad, but not all that great either. 3) average damage with a spiked chain and no Str bonus is 5 - not enough to get past most weapons' hardnesses, so I can't imagine you're sundering a lot. 4) even with the elven save bonus against enchantments, your Will save is so low any decent caster will have an easy time taking you out. You can't disarm hands. 5) You have 10 hit points. A single hit by the 1st level NPC barbarian I mentioned earlier will put you in negative HPs almost 50% of the time.
NehpetsTtocs 02-09-05, 06:54 AM	Well, no. I really don't see anything overly powerful with your character at all, and to be honest with you, I think spiked chain is good for fighters (at least when I consider what other classes have for abilities). It just looks like you wanted to make a highly dextrous fighter and chose to optimize him. Isn't that what everybody does with their characters?
Nomad4life 02-09-05, 07:04 AM	Isn't that what everybody does with their characters? No. Doesn’t make it “wrong.” But no.
NehpetsTtocs 02-09-05, 07:54 AM	I stand corrected then :) .
Escef 02-09-05, 08:08 AM	IMX, most people tend to make their characters good at one or two things or mediocre in everything. Being good at something is fine. The problem comes when you outshine the rest of the party. The elf in question from the original poster may be a disarming machine, but he isn't a damage dealer. And, as has been stated, you can't disarm natural weapons or unarmed strikes (monks will laugh at you). Yes, you're really good at one thing. Unfortunately, that one thing is of value only under certain conditions. If the goblins have a druid in their midst you can expect to deal with creatures you can't disarm. Or a kobold sorcerer with some summon spells. Or if your enemies have pets. I can understand getting annoyed, but so far your man is a one-trick pony. It will pass.
CzarGarrett 02-09-05, 09:10 AM	I'll concur with the 'one-trick pony' idea. You're a fighter, you should be able to fight with axes, swords, maces, spears, anything really. You've set yourself up to just use the chain.
Reinforcements 02-09-05, 09:18 AM	Anyone who thinks the fighter with strength and constitution modifiers of +0 and charisma modifier of +3 is a powergamer needs to have their head examined. And subsequently smacked.
Seeker95 02-09-05, 01:00 PM	I agree with Reinforcements. If you are a power-gamer, you're not a very good one. :P
BeyondFated 02-09-05, 01:17 PM	If you were in my DM's campaign, your Elf would have died before the campaign even started.If your going to keep that character, get something to up your STR and CON, stat. In my opinion, you are not a power gamer, but your on your way. Whether you view this favorably or not, is up to you. (I will proudly admit to power gaming! And all you anti-powergamers can b*** me when your 33 page backstory 20CHA Elf Thief is killed after he fails to convince my 20STR Orc Fighter not to nbust his head in.
OmniPaul 02-09-05, 07:57 PM	Thank you all for the replies To give a bit more insight, our party consists of <digs up information>: Halfling - Rogue (2) Halfling Paragon(1)/Favored Soul(1) Half-Elf - Warlock (2) Elf - Fighter (2) <-Me Half-Elf - Psion (2) Half-Elf - Cleric (2) Shifter - Monk (2) Dwarf - Paladin (2) Every character was generated with 32 point buy, 8 being the base score. The campaign I'm playing in is supposed to be high-magic. We've only had about 5 sessions and the majority of the encounters were with goblins, although we've had a few humanoid encounters and we're currently going off to break up a half-orc gang. The reader's digest version of the elf's character concept was that he really wanted to be a musician/bard/etc while growing up, but his mother forced him down the career path of fighting because he'd be shaming the bloodline (Hence the comment I made in another thread about my elf fighter hating his mother in that "You're ruining my life! I hate you" sort of way) Since we generated our characters with point buy, I tried adjusting his stats accordingly to the story. Low strength and low constitution because fighting really wasn't in his heart, high charisma to reflect his social characteristics, low wisdom to reflect a personality quirk, and high base dexterity (to be enhanced with the elves' innate relative superiority in dexterity) to give him some chance in combat. With the higher charisma, I took skills in perform(sing), intimidate, and handle animal which are used outside of combat (No bard songs, the character himself doesn't really utilize intimidating as a tactic, and I do not own animals).
Nardo Polo 02-09-05, 11:07 PM	You know, I don't really see a problem with your character. Especially not in that party. If you really wanted to be abusive you could have done much better. I think you've got a nice UNIQUE fighter on your hands and you should play him as he stands. No one says the fighter has to carry the big sword and be stupid. If you really wanted to maximize your potential, coordinate with one of your party memebers so that when you trip something they are right there to finish it off while it is down. There's two guys in one of my current games who have both specialized, one has done as you have and made a trip specialist with the spiked chain and the other has made a sunder specialist with a greatsword. So far they have been a very effective duo.
Asciiman 02-10-05, 05:30 AM	Eight people in your party? Forgot what I typed and go nuts. With that many people you won't over shadow everyone and if you over shadow one or two, it will only be for a short while. I figured you were in the standard 4 cause you didn't say any different. So yeah, go with what you got. In fact now that I look at it, your group is not very front end heavy. With eight PC's you only have two possible heavy tanks, you as the fighter and the paladin. So anything you do with that chain will be more just to even it out. Yeah go with what you got. Don't change him.
PurdueDave 02-10-05, 06:50 PM	I wouldn't say your a powergamer with that build. He's good at what he does but isn't the typical spiked-chain power build. Given what you listed for the party, he sounds on par with everyone else.
Keenath 02-10-05, 09:41 PM	The spiked chain is just kind of a mess of a weapon. While being good at the disarm isn't a terrible thing, you might want to pick a different weapon just for the stigma factor. Try the rapier, perhaps. Or maybe you should consider switching out for a bard, since you're an elf with good charisma -- your stats are more in line with that than a straight fighter. Possibly consider multiclassing. If you love your disarms, try a two handed weapon besides the chain. I think there's a few others that offer the disarm bonus, in fact. If you choose to go with the multiclass fighter-bard, you should put lots of ranks into diplomacy and intimidate, and build towards a fighter who likes non-violent solutions. Disarm, then talk 'em down or scare 'em off. Just some ideas. You aren't a powergamer, you're just holding a powergamer's weapon. The same way holding a lightsaber doesn't make you a Jedi. Anyway, you're surely not a powergamer if you're playing a fighter with a positive score in charisma!
Scipio 02-11-05, 12:49 AM	I'd say you are not a powergamer. You have one piece of equipment that gives you an edge on trips and disarms, but that's all. Why not say that fighters wearing full plate are powergaming because they have an edge on not getting hit by Big Cutlery, lol. Like it has been said, those little bits of an edge are easily avoidable, try tripping a dragon, or disarming anyone with a locked gauntlet. Oh and to the comment that not everyone optimizes their characters, that is only half true. Not everyone min/maxes however almost every player optimizes to one degree or another. Unless you routinely play 3.0 Orcish Bards with 3s in charisma dex and con. :P