Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morphey 08-08-05, 10:46 PM	One of my player ask me if he could use a feats once, the feast was cool so i ask im where did you find it. He said he found X book on the net , download it and want to use it. my anwser was no. he ask why. Because you didnt buy the book, its just like you stole it. Maybe my anwser sound to Paladinlike, but i dont think its ok, if eveyone steal book on the net, wizard ( or anyone else) will stop making good stuff. I dont or let my players use book they didnt buy. ( it s the same for everything else, movie , game etc..) I dont understand why is it so easy to find DD material on the net, and they get out as soon ( if not sooner) . am i the only one to think like that!
WizO_Cat 08-08-05, 10:51 PM	No, you're not the only one that feels that way.
SnowbearK 08-08-05, 11:19 PM	Nope, you're not alone. Of course, my group tends to share our (ok, mostly my purchases) books as a group anyways, so we really only need one copy of each (beyond our personal Core3 books), unless we really like the book in question. For instance, I think we have 3 copies of Complete Arcane, 3 copies of Eberron, and 4 copies each of Tome & Blood and Masters of the Wild.
Magnus Magus 08-08-05, 11:21 PM	Considering the love of convenience and the lack of ethics that prevails in society, I would say that you're definitely in the minority. People download illegal music files, buy bootlegged movies, pirate copies of Harry Potter. Why should it stop there? No one really considers or even cares that they're stealing from the source or screwing over those who actually do support the game. Want to do something about it? Treat them like you would a shoplifter. Find out the site(s) and discretely report them to the WizOs. If there is a legitimate problem worthy of attention, Wizards will take care of it. That being said, there are a lot of legitimate sites out there that are great and support DnD by providing original content. It would suck to lose these because of an unethical minority.
Tevish Szat 08-08-05, 11:25 PM	he might have downloaded one of the 'e books' advirtized on the D&D main page some times, but it does not seem like it from your response. You are not alone. It has never come up to me, but my rule would be that if you don't rightfully own the book, and I (The DM) do not own the book, you don't use it. If htey don't own a book, they cna borrow mine (no one in my group but me has anythign more than the core books), but that is different. under no circumstances would i support illegal download.
The Vagrant 08-09-05, 01:22 AM	If I could see the file to confirm that it's a WotC product feat, I'd allow it. As long as you can easly axcess the source agian for refrence, I'd let him use it. As for music, movies and etc. being downloaded off the internet: Meh, just try to stop it; you're not going to get anywhere. The best thing to do is to harness it. Soon pireting will be as moral as speeding, that just makes sence unless something really big happens. If any of you people speed, but say pireting is wrong, then you're an idiot. And 5 MPH over the limit is speeding. And I'm not saying pireting is right, I'm just saying there's no way it'll end.
ccerose 08-09-05, 02:23 AM	If I could see the file to confirm that it's a WotC product feat, I'd allow it. As long as you can easly axcess the source agian for refrence, I'd let him use it. As for music, movies and etc. being downloaded off the internet: Meh, just try to stop it; you're not going to get anywhere. The best thing to do is to harness it. Soon pireting will be as moral as speeding, that just makes sence unless something really big happens. If any of you people speed, but say pireting is wrong, then you're an idiot. And 5 MPH over the limit is speeding. And I'm not saying pireting is right, I'm just saying there's no way it'll end. Worst. Analogy. Ever. When you speed, you are violating safety laws When you download scanned book, ripped DVDs, or mp3 files, you are stealing. There's a huge difference. No one loses money when you exceed the speed limit. When you steal a book, music, software, or any other type of intellectual property, you are taking money away from the person or people who have created something that brings you entertainment value. If the creative minds keep getting screwed by supposed fans, eventually they are just going to say, "Ef this. Why waste my time creating something that some jerk is going to steal." And instead of stealing WoC products, you should probably go out and steal a dictionary. It's spelled pirating.
ccerose 08-09-05, 02:32 AM	Oh, and to the OP, I totally agree with you. I'd never allow the use of pirated material. In fact, if anyone showed up with pirated material at any of our games, they would promptly get the boot.
Kojiro James 08-09-05, 02:45 AM	I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. And just to conform to my Lawful Evil alignment, I'd reformat his entire hard drive to teach him a lesson.
Solaris 08-09-05, 03:28 AM	When you speed, you are violating safety laws ... No one loses money when you exceed the speed limit. No, but they can lose their lives if you aren't being safe. When you download scanned book, ripped DVDs, or mp3 files, you are stealing. No you're not. You're infringing copyright. Even the Supreme Court of the United States has explicitly stated that copyright infringement is not theft. Copyright infringement and speeding are both illegal, but neither of the two is theft. And spreading the lie that "copyright infringement is theft" does no service to the morality debate. Why copyright infringement isn't theft: If I steal your shoes, then you don't have your shoes anymore. If, on the other hand, I copy your shoes with a Star Trek replicator, then we both have shoes. That scenario doesn't have any of the characteristics we associate with theft. Of course, if I copied your shoes, then the shoe company might miss out on a sale. But then again they might not. Would I have bought shoes from them if I didn't have a replicator? Maybe, and maybe not. But a possibly-lost sale also lacks any of the characteristics that we associate with theft. As to whether or not this non-theft action is moral, debate away.
hobbit for hire 08-09-05, 03:34 AM	One of my player ask me if he could use a feats once, the feast was cool so i ask im where did you find it. He said he found X book on the net , download it and want to use it. my anwser was no. he ask why. Because you didnt buy the book, its just like you stole it. Maybe my anwser sound to Paladinlike, but i dont think its ok, if eveyone steal book on the net, wizard ( or anyone else) will stop making good stuff. I dont or let my players use book they didnt buy. ( it s the same for everything else, movie , game etc..) I dont understand why is it so easy to find DD material on the net, and they get out as soon ( if not sooner) . am i the only one to think like that! Who made you the ******* morality police? Your game (and attitude) sound like crap, the sort of game one would do well to avoid. Why don't you keep your ethics to yourself, and kindly **** off. [[Please be polite and constructive in your comments ... this post is neither and as such could be considered trolling/baiting, a violation of the CoC. -- WizO the Hutt]]
Deflare 08-09-05, 03:51 AM	Did your player say exactly where he got the feat? Remember, Wizards has many of its products available in the form of Source Resource Documents; AFAIK, they're free to use. He could also have been using an original feat from the Internet (as others mention, people create and post those for free), or even something from an excerpt of a WotC book published on the site. If this ever gets to be a problem in my campaign, then I'll lay down a house rule: I will only accept feats and such from bought books (either e-books or physical books), SRDs, and free, original material on the Internet. And before anyone replies to Hobbit for Hire, don't. It's not worth it.
Manyfist 08-09-05, 04:05 AM	My friend shop lifts his books all the time, I tell him to stop, he won't. I tried to steal his PHB 3.5, but he took my CA. My self don't care about the source as long as I can see it and I find it acceptable to my campaign. If not I just tell them to find somthing else or scrap it.
SonsOfKyuss 08-09-05, 04:17 AM	If you break the speed limit you are increasing the chances of injuring or killing someone. Speeding is a major cause of traffic accidents and should be treated seriously. No one loses money when you download a book, movie, or music. The key word in that sentence is lose. If I download a song that is out of print, money doesn't just magically fly out of someones bank account and into my hands. But if I get caught downloading that song, I could face fines and jail time, all for music that isn't even available to buy. If I speed, I could get a ticket for a couple hundred bucks and have my insurance rates increase. Let's see, major fines or jail time for downloading some music I would never actually buy, or a 200 dollar ticket for increasing the odds that someone will be injured or killed. Does this seem backwords to anyone else? Downloading movies, music, and books could be considered stealing by some, but not in the same sense that walking out of borders with a book in your trousers is stealing. There's no distribution cost lost, there's no physical product missing. What might be lost is the possibility of making a sale. But if it is suddenly illegal or immoral to do something that might possibly result in someone not making a sale, then I guess anyone who has ever written a product review should run for the hills, because they cause companies to lose sales all the time. I never downloaded an official book in the five years I played 2nd Ed and I only bought two books. I will admit to having downloaded a couple of 3rd ed books, but I have bought seventeen 3.x books. Is there a connection? The core rules of 3.x were made open source due to the belief that with more people playing the game, even if you weren't always the one selling all of the product on the market, the increased size of the hobby would mean more people would be exposed to your game system and more people would be buying at least some of your products. I think this applies to downloaded books too. If somebody downloads a book, even if they don't ever buy a single book, just the fact that there is another gamer in the community will probably help sales. If nothing else, the people who the downloader plays with will probably buy the books just so they know what the downloader is talking about. (Before anybody jumps on my back too hard, I AM legally entitled to have archival copies of books I own, so in this case, downloading a digital representation is legal) In the good ol' days, back before broadband made everybody download happy, people would photocopy (have people forgotten this ancient technology?) the sections of books they wanted to use. Is downloading a book and printing a page or two that much different? Both are illegal (although I imagine somebody might attempt to pull some "fair-use" defense), but I never saw anyone trying to put legislation through that would halt the manufacture or sale of any photocopier that didn't incorporate digital rights management hardware. I don't believe that it's alright for people to download media if it means that the artists and the companies that produced the media won't be able to make a profit from their work. At the same time, I don't see how it benefits our society to create laws that will be both expensive and extremely difficult if not downright impossible to enforce. On the same vein, I don't see how it benefits our society to protect a record industry that stifles artistic creativity, reduces consumer choices, and is dead set on the continuance of an inefficient distribution system. Back to the OP's main point. Would I let a person use a feat they got from a book they downloaded? Probably. My question to all the people who wouldn't is: Would you allow a person to use material they got from a book they checked out from a public library? What about material they read while hanging out at the comic shop or book store?
EvilDuck 08-09-05, 04:32 AM	When you speed, you are violating safety laws When you download scanned book, ripped DVDs, or mp3 files, you are stealing. There's a huge difference. Yeah, in that safety laws are there to keep people from you know, dying, and copyright laws are there to protect intellectual property. Now, let me ask you what's more important. Life? Or money? Don't act like you're so high and mighty because you'll boot someone from your group for using a feat from a book they DLed off the internet. That's just being an ass. I've got a friend who downloaded some books with Kazaa. We didn't really use them at all because it was annoying as hell to scroll through them, so we just bought them, and now we use the stuff a lot. As for things like singular feats and classes: I have a photographic memory when it comes to D&D rules stuff, and where my memory fails, I can use websites. Now I don't have to buy the crappy Races of Destiny because I memorized Able Learner and they put Chameleon on the WotC website. I found the half-minotaur on Crystal Keep, so I won't need to find an old issue of Dragon. And I have access to the awesome Rokugan Ninja. Basically, I guess I don't care where my players get their info from as long as it's accurate(I check). I don't make them go out and buy another 30 dollar book. OP: Have your player take you to the comic shop/bookstore, and show you the actual feat. Make a mental note of what it says and does. If he can't verify the feat, don't allow it. Curious, but what did he say the feat was named?
Santrilla 08-09-05, 05:00 AM	OP, I can understand your position. If you personally aren't comfortable with someone infringing copyright and illegally downloading the books, you don't have to let your characters use feats from books which they've done this with. (Worst syntax ever, but you get the idea.) It's your campaign, after all. Personally I work with the same system as the US military; don't ask, don't tell. If my players got something from Libris Mortis and they want to use it, I don't care if they bought it or if they downloaded it, or even if they photocopied it from a friend. All I care about is whether it's balanced or gamebreaking.
katarl 08-09-05, 07:24 AM	Is photocopying sections from a book that your friend owns considered stealing? If one person in your group has a book, effectively, everyone has it, because they constantly borrow and swap between themselves. Private ownership doesn't really apply. People can get together and buy different videos from one another, and swap them, effectively quadrupling (or more) the number of movies they see. This takes away the same sales from the company selling. Is this stealing? The pop industry is at a rather weak moment right now (Classical is actually outpacing them). People are trading along an international group. In this group, only one needs to actually buy the product, and shares it with others, dividing sales by huge numbers, so the retailers lose out. Its the same principle, but suddenly becomes a threat. From the consumers point of view, they get virtually limitless media for free, out of someones generosity. From the producer's its a death sentence, since if enough people get it for free, their sales plummet. Who is more important? If the producer gets no profit, then we get no new media. Better to keep our trading in small groups only, for that sake then, rather than any ethical argument (its not stealing, its sharing). How much more profit would WotC make if we all bought our own books, rather than share? I reckon their sales would triple. I don't care where people get their sources from (though in my group its usually gryphon-related). What they do is their business. My campaign is mine.
Escef 08-09-05, 07:47 AM	As a side comment on the file sharing, I think the biggest problem is corporate greed. When I can walk into Suncoast and see a rack of DVDs under $10 but can't find CDs that cheap in the FYI in the other end of the mall there is a problem.
babysamurai 08-09-05, 08:04 AM	I think a lot of people are just jealous because they had to go out and spend 30 bucks on Complete Adventurer just to get the Dual Strike feat, when their more intelligent friend Downloaded the feat off some cool site. As for the original poster of this thread (I use the term thread lightly), judging by his poor grammar, I think he's just a self-righteous 12 year old or something. Aside from a few of the other posters (namely Santrilla and Evilduck), the rest of you sound like you need to stop being the judge and jury on other peoples actions...worry about yourselves.
Escef 08-09-05, 08:19 AM	Aside from a few of the other posters (namely Santrilla and Evilduck), the rest of you sound like you need to stop being the judge and jury on other peoples actions...worry about yourselves. One is often judged by the company one keeps. And when one judges oneself as wanting because you keep company with folk who partake in deeds you disapprove of, the only solutions are to reform your friend (and disapproval often hurts them more than anything else) or cut them off entirely. I will not tell people to stop making judgements. To not have judgements is to not have preferences, nor the ability to make a decision. Have a spine and make your judgements. Wether your spine be black or white, I care not.
Ut-Napishtim 08-09-05, 10:08 AM	Um, you know you can legally buy the books in electronic format at DriveThrurpg.com - right? Just because it's electronic doesn't mean it's automatically illegal. Also, if you've already paid for a hardcopy of a supplement I don't see why you should have to pay again for the .pdf just so you can print up a table or something for quick reference. Now I have run across a player or two that were prolific pirates, and would dowload anything they could just to add to their "collection" even though they weren't even going to use it. I'm not really comfortable with that as a lot of artists and writers put some serious work into that stuff, but I've never really felt the need to cowboy up on my high horse and wag my finger at them about it. Isn't that supposedly why so many gamers hate Christians in the first place? The hypocrisy is neck deep around here at times. :twocents:
Santrilla 08-09-05, 10:13 AM	Um, you know you can legally buy the books in electronic format at DriveThrurpg.com - right? Just because it's electronic doesn't mean it's automatically illegal. Very true, but in this case the impression is that the download was done illegally.
Morphey 08-09-05, 10:40 AM	Very true, but in this case the impression is that the download was done illegally. I dont want to juge , insult , kill or care if people use pirate copy, i juste want to know if they use or let them use in their game and why.
Santrilla 08-09-05, 11:07 AM	I dont want to juge , insult , kill or care if people use pirate copy, i juste want to know if they use or let them use in their game and why. Well, for me it doesn't make a huge difference how the information was obtained. I don't care if they bought it kosher. I don't care if they paid for it through slavery, drug trafficking and pimping. I don't care if they slipped into a catsuit, broke into their local store through the top window and used a spy-camera to photograph pages of the book before flying home on a zip-line; if the ability/class/whatever isn't broken, and I like it, they're welcome to use it.
High Octane 08-09-05, 11:35 AM	You know, even if someone was to disagree with this, they wouldnt admit it because it is sort of a confession of guilt.
babysamurai 08-09-05, 11:40 AM	However someone can get the information, more power to them.
ccerose 08-09-05, 11:56 AM	No, but they can lose their lives if you aren't being safe. No you're not. You're infringing copyright. Even the Supreme Court of the United States has explicitly stated that copyright infringement is not theft. Copyright infringement and speeding are both illegal, but neither of the two is theft. And spreading the lie that "copyright infringement is theft" does no service to the morality debate. I made the distinction that speeding was a safety violation. It doesn't matter that in the eyes of the law copyright infringment is not stealing, but it's still breaking the law. I'm not exactly what point you're trying to make, speeding and copyright infringement is still a bad analogy. If I steal your shoes, then you don't have your shoes anymore. If, on the other hand, I copy your shoes with a Star Trek replicator, then we both have shoes. That scenario doesn't have any of the characteristics we associate with theft. Of course, if I copied your shoes, then the shoe company might miss out on a sale. But then again they might not. Would I have bought shoes from them if I didn't have a replicator? Maybe, and maybe not. But a possibly-lost sale also lacks any of the characteristics that we associate with theft. As to whether or not this non-theft action is moral, debate away. That's fine, if you want to leave the moral debate in the hands of others, but how about we have a debate on the stupidity of actually mentioning the use of a Star Trek replicator as an argument to support breaking the law. The argument of missed sales is a cop out. It only serves to provide flawed justification for the the criminal to continue in the criminal behavior.
ORC_Paradox 08-09-05, 12:13 PM	Discussing and encouraging illegal activities is against the Code of Condut.
ccerose 08-09-05, 12:13 PM	Yeah, in that safety laws are there to keep people from you know, dying, and copyright laws are there to protect intellectual property. Now, let me ask you what's more important. Life? Or money? Don't act like you're so high and mighty because you'll boot someone from your group for using a feat from a book they DLed off the internet. That's just being an ass. I've got a friend who downloaded some books with Kazaa. We didn't really use them at all because it was annoying as hell to scroll through them, so we just bought them, and now we use the stuff a lot. As for things like singular feats and classes: I have a photographic memory when it comes to D&D rules stuff, and where my memory fails, I can use websites. Now I don't have to buy the crappy Races of Destiny because I memorized Able Learner and they put Chameleon on the WotC website. I found the half-minotaur on Crystal Keep, so I won't need to find an old issue of Dragon. And I have access to the awesome Rokugan Ninja. Basically, I guess I don't care where my players get their info from as long as it's accurate(I check). I don't make them go out and buy another 30 dollar book. OP: Have your player take you to the comic shop/bookstore, and show you the actual feat. Make a mental note of what it says and does. If he can't verify the feat, don't allow it. Curious, but what did he say the feat was named? Why the hostility towards me? You make it sound like I am playing down the importance of traffic laws? It was the poster I quoted that equated the two. I was merely pointing out how bad the analogy was. By your tone, it's apparant that you agree with me. My attitude has nothing to do with being high and mighty, it has to do with right and wrong. Why is it being an ass that I don't allow copied material at my table? My gaming group happens to play at tables set up at the FLGS. What a slap in the face it would be to the owner who lets us set up in his store, after hours, on his dime to bring copied material to use right there in front of him. I know that not everyone can afford every $30-$40 book. However, at least one person at my table needs to own the book if it is going to be used. Hooray for you and your photographic memory. At my table, someone better have the book if you want to take that feat.