Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jollythehappyminotaur 04-28-07, 08:44 PM	Well ive been playing D&D for about 4 years now and many times ive had people wanting to learn to play from me. I hate teaching new people but feel kind of dickish when i tell them no. I guess its kind of my duty as a loyal D&D plus wizard fan to teach people how to play and expand the community of us D&D freaks. i enjoy teaching games like MTG and Axis and allies but in D&D it is much more frustrating to include a new player in a serious campign. Everytime it seems to go wrong for me and while the new player enjoys himself the others get frustrated and dont really like it. What are your experiences and how do you deal with new players in an expirenced group. Any suggestions?
Osedox 04-28-07, 08:51 PM	I have had the same problem on a couple of occasions. My advise is to just give them a copy of the PHB and tell them to browse through the character creation section. Once they are familiar with the basics then you could alow them to create a character and run them through a few sample encounters that allow them to grasp the basics of combat. From there mayby just allow them to come and observe a gaming session with some more experienced players.
Stardust 04-28-07, 08:53 PM	I've spent most of my time DMing teaching people who are pretty new to the game how to play it. Fortunately my current group has two moderately experienced players in addition to the two newer ones. On the one hand I like it, because I hate DMing for hardcore optimizers and munchkins, but on the other hand I can do a much better job when I can concentrate on running the NPCs and ajudicating the action without having to remind the players what their characters' abilities are, or reminding them that they don't roll a d20 for damage. Ever. Or ask them for the 10th time this session to please add the relevant modifiers to their rolls before telling me the result. I can see what number the die came up, that's not what I'm interested in. They're learning slowly though and the two new players (as well as the existing ones) are great at the actual ROLEplaying aspect, which is good because my games are about 50/50 social roleplaying mixed with combat. The biggest factor though is the player's willingness to dig into the books and learn what they really should know. I don't ask them to read the PHB cover to cover, especially when they're playing a non-caster. I do expect them to read what their race/class features are, though, as well as the combat chapter. Those who repeatedly screw up through not knowing the most basic rules after four or five sessions are the ones I lose patience with.
StoneStokes 04-28-07, 08:58 PM	I love teaching new players how to play the game. I think that if you try a different approach, you will enjoy it too. Since it seems that you have plenty of people interested in learning how to play, tell them that you will teach them when there are enough new players to form a gaming group. Then teach all of them at once, in a 1st level game. You will be rewarded with players who are as naive as their first level characters. When you don't know the difference between a goblin and an orc, this can be a really exciting time. If you have one experienced player who is willing to help things along, but play his PC as naively as the beginning players, this can help. If you try to bring new players into a higher level game, frustration on everyone's part is inevitable. It is unfair to the experienced players, if they want fast paced action; and it is very unfair to the new players. Usually the experienced players end up telling the new players exactly what to do, what feats to choose, what weapons to buy, etc. This is the wrong way to go about learning the game.
Whisper_Swiftblade 04-28-07, 09:10 PM	Tell them when they have dice and the phb you will be happy to help them, but the book can probally teach them better than you could be expected to. t be honest playing with borrowed dice, and shareing a phb is a hassle when building PCs and playing anyway.
StoneStokes 04-28-07, 09:19 PM	Tell them when they have dice and the phb you will be happy to help them, but the book can probally teach them better than you could be expected to. t be honest playing with borrowed dice, and shareing a phb is a hassle when building PCs and playing anyway. It really isn't that bad. A lot of people want to try the game. They might like it and want to play it for years and years (like us); or they might decide they don't really like it. Telling your friends that they need to buy dice and a PHB before you will teach them the game is nearly equivalent to asking them to make the above choice in advance. If you REALLY don't want to teach your friends how to play the game, this is a sound tactic. If you want to share your enjoyment of the game with others, I think your advice is awful.
Whisper_Swiftblade 04-29-07, 12:13 AM	It really isn't that bad. A lot of people want to try the game. They might like it and want to play it for years and years (like us); or they might decide they don't really like it. Telling your friends that they need to buy dice and a PHB before you will teach them the game is nearly equivalent to asking them to make the above choice in advance. If you REALLY don't want to teach your friends how to play the game, this is a sound tactic. If you want to share your enjoyment of the game with others, I think your advice is awful. I see your point, I am probally a little bitter because of a number of times when freinds said wanted to try the game, but when game day came they showed no cumitment, or didn't pay attention to peers explaining the rules.
darkeness 04-29-07, 12:41 AM	I have had the same problem on a couple of occasions. My advise is to just give them a copy of the PHB and tell them to browse through the character creation section. Once they are familiar with the basics then you could alow them to create a character and run them through a few sample encounters that allow them to grasp the basics of combat. From there mayby just allow them to come and observe a gaming session with some more experienced players. Pretty good advice, but I don't know about the observation bit. For someone who does not know the rules (and reading the PHB doesn't qualify IMO) sitting around watching a bunch of gammers is rather boring. As others pointed out it is best to start new gamers out at first level, it is much easier that way and they grow with their characters. Assuming you play frequently enough for them to learn to read the character sheet, here are a couple things to keep in mind. First, if they are not willing to read the PHB to learn about the game (especially after a game or 2), they are not interested enough to stay in a long term game. Second (and this may sound cruel), if they can't figure out how to do something simply like add +3 to a die roll when it is written on the sheet in front of them, they are not worth gaming with.
StoneStokes 04-29-07, 01:05 AM	Yes, that is a good point, the commitment is an issue. Most new players don't fully understand that D&D is a game that requires a bit of commitment on everyone's part to maintain a campaign. This is something that needs to be explained to them. But it can also wait. Here is the order that I try to do things when teaching new players: Explain the basic rules to them, and run through a one-shot adventure with pre-generated characters. I have a bunch of first level characters designed for new players (easy feats, spells, etc.), and they can choose which one they want to play. This is commitment level 1. If they try the game and they don't like it, no big deal. If they like it, move on to level 2. Assuming there are still players interested, ask them if they can play once a week for the next four weeks. If they agree to such a commitment (level 2), then run a single adventure like Sunless Citadel. Give them the option to keep using the character they used in the first game, or try one of the other pre-gens. Point out that there is no more trading until this adventure is over. If you still have players interested in playing, suggest they buy the PHB, and dice. Get an experienced player or two to join the group to make up for any dropouts. Create some characters with the newbies. Let the veterans help, but try to give the new players as much autonomy as you can. Try to avoid min/maxing their characters for them. If they aren't optimized, that's fine. Just design the campaign with that in mind. This is commitment level 3. After a month or two, they are probably more than ready to join your more experienced campaign. The key is to not expect a higher level of commitment than the players are prepared to give. New players don't understand that a D&D campaign is a living and growing organism. It is hard to convey that to them at the start. It is kind of like amorous relationships, actually. You probably wouldn't ask a first date if they want to marry you. You probably wouldn't even ask them for a commitment of exclusivity. At the very best, you might ask them if you can see them next friday. Cheers, StoneStokes PS: I want to apologize. My last post sounds very hostile; I really did not intend it to. I just re-read it (several hours after the fact), and I realized how hostile it seems to be. I'm sorry if it seemed this way to others as well.
Osedox 04-29-07, 11:04 AM	Pretty good advice, but I don't know about the observation bit. For someone who does not know the rules (and reading the PHB doesn't qualify IMO) sitting around watching a bunch of gammers is rather boring. As others pointed out it is best to start new gamers out at first level, it is much easier that way and they grow with their characters. Assuming you play frequently enough for them to learn to read the character sheet, here are a couple things to keep in mind. First, if they are not willing to read the PHB to learn about the game (especially after a game or 2), they are not interested enough to stay in a long term game. Second (and this may sound cruel), if they can't figure out how to do something simply like add +3 to a die roll when it is written on the sheet in front of them, they are not worth gaming with.I totaly agree, and have run of several pseudo interested players, just because they were un-interested enough to actualy dedicate some time to read the book.
Malraux 04-29-07, 11:44 AM	I love teaching new players how to play the game. I think that if you try a different approach, you will enjoy it too. Since it seems that you have plenty of people interested in learning how to play, tell them that you will teach them when there are enough new players to form a gaming group. Then teach all of them at once, in a 1st level game. I highly agree with this. Running the Sunless Citadel with a bunch of new players never gets old. You can even have someone who is experienced in the game, but wants to enjoy the simplicity of a low level game. Perhaps I'm in a good location, but I've found that about every year and a half I can find enough people to commit to one night a week for about a month and get a campaign going, which coincides with me being ready to start a new campaign.
Pacalypse 04-29-07, 12:11 PM	Tell them when they have dice and the phb you will be happy to help them, but the book can probally teach them better than you could be expected to. t be honest playing with borrowed dice, and shareing a phb is a hassle when building PCs and playing anyway. I really don't agree with this advice. Asking someone to make a $30+ investment before you teach them to play isn't a good tactic. There's no guarantee that they will like the game and that's asking a little much for something that they want to test first. In addition, the suggestion on them reading the PHB is also not to my tastes, IMHO the PHB is a boring and long read, (sorry if many don't agree, but I just call em how I see em). It's the equivalent of handing someone a text book that they have to read in order to have "fun". I also don't think a read through of the PHB really conveys the actual dynamics of the game that in anyway makes it sound more fun than say World of Warcraft without way more invested time. I really wish WotC would publish a book on simplifying D&D, I think it would be a great asset in exactly this situation, something where you can add more crunch as your players become more comfortable with the rules set. My suggestion would be to do a "prelude" for your new player(s), it's something I've picked up from playing alot of White Wolf, and I think they're great for having someone get the "basics" down. It's a short one on one gaming experience with the DM and (usually) one other player that is used in general as a background exploration device. But it can also serve to introduce a player to the rules in an environment where... 1.) There are no other distractions, like other players, Off topic conversations, etc. 2.) It's easier and less embarassing to ask you questions if a character doesn't understand something, but may be a little embarassed to ask in front of veterans. 3.) Allows you a better gauge for what the player does or doesn't grasp. 4.) allows you to pace it if the player is having trouble grasping certain concepts, without it bogging down everyone else in group play.
Escef 04-29-07, 02:42 PM	I'd rather teach a new player than an experienced one. I swear, trying to get people to unlearn wrong stuff is harder than teaching from scratch.
Chaos Theory 04-29-07, 02:56 PM	I have taught, oh, maybe 10-15 new people to play in the last 3 years. And time and again I use the same method and it works every time. You hand walk them through character creation and then jump right in. Let them know that they can do ANYTHING that they want They'll catch on as they ask "how do I do..." and you explain it.
StoneStokes 04-29-07, 03:18 PM	Let them know that they can do ANYTHING that they want They'll catch on as they ask "how do I do..." and you explain it. That is excellent advice.
Malraux 04-29-07, 03:49 PM	Let them know that they can do ANYTHING that they want They'll catch on as they ask "how do I do..." and you explain it. The only caveat is I'll also point out when there's something that their character would know, but they might not. For example, the barbarian would know to 5 ft step so he can charge next round, even if the player is not familiar with what the game mechanic called charge. Of course, I make sure to toss out equally good and bad advice and let the player figure out what he should use.
Escef 04-29-07, 03:55 PM	The only caveat is I'll also point out when there's something that their character would know, but they might not. For example, the barbarian would know to 5 ft step so he can charge next round, even if the player is not familiar with what the game mechanic called charge. Of course, I make sure to toss out equally good and bad advice and let the player figure out what he should use. Honestly, I think it might be better to demonstrate a few of the more weird combat manuvers in their first couple sessions. Sunder a shield, a wolf making a trip attack, a caster gets grappled, someone charges. Neither PCs nor NPCs need to be on the recieving end of all of these. Coordinate with the rest of the group.
Newpaintbrush 04-29-07, 05:57 PM	I tell a new player to borrow a Player's Handbook and read through it, and create a character. I'll give 'em a character sheet, and tell 'em that I expect to see a character next week, and they'll be playing a test scenario. Next week, I look at the character sheet. If it isn't filled out, that person hasn't made the commitment, and I'm not going to use MY precious time for someone that isn't interested enough to do work on their own behalf. If it's filled out, I run 'em through a short scenario. Usually a new player will make a lot of mistakes, but at that point, I figure they're in for doing the work. So I tell 'em to read up on whatever subjects they made mistakes on but will need to know. Then I tell 'em to latch on to someone's Players' Handbook for another week. Next week, another scenario. If they do OK on what they were supposed to read up on, they're in. If they fail, they're out; they can read up on everything in their own time.
DyloniusFunk 04-29-07, 06:04 PM	I really don't agree with this advice. Asking someone to make a $30+ investment before you teach them to play isn't a good tactic. There's no guarantee that they will like the game and that's asking a little much for something that they want to test first. In addition, the suggestion on them reading the PHB is also not to my tastes, IMHO the PHB is a boring and long read, (sorry if many don't agree, but I just call em how I see em). It's the equivalent of handing someone a text book that they have to read in order to have "fun". I also don't think a read through of the PHB really conveys the actual dynamics of the game that in anyway makes it sound more fun than say World of Warcraft without way more invested time. I really wish WotC would publish a book on simplifying D&D, I think it would be a great asset in exactly this situation, something where you can add more crunch as your players become more comfortable with the rules set. Dungeons & Dragons for Dummies (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Dummies-Bill-Slavicsek/dp/0764584596/ref=sr_1_1/103-8417186-8338223?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177884046&sr=8-1) might be a good solution. It's only 19.99 MSRP and Amazon has it for around 13 dollars. You are right that a 30 dollar investment is a lot if they aren't sure if the game is really something they want to commit to but i think this book might be a good way for them to learn about the game without that expensive commitment and they may be able to get it through their library Interlibrary loan or something similar. I haven't read it myself but it's gotten good feedback at Amazon.
MHolland 04-29-07, 06:18 PM	Have them come to this website and play the cheesy demo. Sit with them while they work their way through (because it is a tiny bit dull and if you help with advice and anecdotes it can be more interesting). The demo is free and provides a good visual for new players. Then simply expand from there.
Aliquid 04-29-07, 06:34 PM	I actually like teaching new players... that way I can get to them before they develop annoying bad habits. A helpful tip if you regularly game with new players: Color coordination Dice - Get a set of dice where every die is a different color. When you say "Roll a d8", and they look confused, say "the blue one". Character sheet - Get various colored highlighers. Highlight the important parts of the character sheet in different colors. When you say "roll initiative", and they look confused... you say "the red die plus the green number on your sheet" I find that this typically speeds things up when they are still learning.
Mistimp 04-29-07, 07:46 PM	Our home group is very large so we seldom take on a new player there. However we also run RPGA games at the local game store where anyone is welcome. The biggest difference is that if we are thinking of letting someone into our home game we ask them to come and just watch once first. We generally try to get them to play a standard fighter for the first character as there is less to learn. They can get the feel of other classes by watching the other players. Don't expect much role-playing in the beginning and take them through combats one die roll at a time. If they like it they will pick it up in no time. I have taught players from 8 - 40, and most of the time it was fun.
Legolamb 04-30-07, 04:02 PM	I just started playing D&D this year (guess you can teach an old dog new tricks - LOL), but being a bit of a fanatic, I bought the D&D Player box set (few mini's, paperback PHB, some dice and a couple of small introduction brochures) and D&D for Dummies. I read through the material and then laid out a couple of characters (fighter, roge and monk) and asked one of the guys from the gaming group I was joining to review. After getting straightened out on my understanding of several of the inputs, I made some changes and jumped into an on-going campaign in the Under Dark as a 5th level Dwarven fighter. My dwarf died in a near TPK (5 of 7 died) but we were res'ed and I got back into things only to die at the hands of some squid-like monstor in an underground lake. Came back into the game as a half-elf Duskblade only to die in another near TPK (lost 3 of 7). Anyway, it's been wall to wall excitement and I really appreciate all the help of the gaming group as I continue to stumble along.
SlanderPanic 04-30-07, 04:31 PM	When, fifteen years ago, I asked if someone would teach me to play, the answer was, without hesitation, "yes." Since then, I've passed what I've learned along to dozens of new players. That's the kind of tradition that keeps this game -and this worldwide community of gamers- growing. As experienced D&D players, we have a responsibility. Just like someone helped us learn and helped us to have a positive experience with our first sessions, we must do the same. It's just good karma.
Rian Lightblade 04-30-07, 05:05 PM	Frankly, I've always enjoyed getting new people into the game. Sure it can be difficult at times. But, as others have said, without new blood the hobby will die.
lordgeek22 05-01-07, 12:29 AM	I love to bring new players into the game but I do agree that sometimes teaching them can be very challenging. First, there are a lot of rules in the phb. Either by reading it or by trying to explain the rules, it's a lot of info that the new players have to absorb. Now there is a good deal of value in learning on the fly but that to can become a hassle as it will sometimes slow down the session. Second, as experienced players and dms there are many things that we take for granted. I remember trying to teach someone about the game and they looked very puzzled when I said "roll 1d20." I didn't even occur to me that they may never have encountered that phrase before. Third, in my experience playing and dming, rpgs tend to be very "term heavy." A few of the new gamers that I have tried to teach would often get hung-up on particular terms like skill rank and feat for example. So I tried to develop analogies that would explain the concepts better. I would suggest (for incorperating a new player into an advanced/ongoing campaign) that: 1) Play a premade character so that they can begin to learn the basic mechanics. Instruct them to just perform simple actions at first. This works better if the premade character is a fighter. 2) After playing for a few sessions with the premade character, have them attempt to construct their own character. With your guidence of course. This helps them learn to finer mechanics of character creation as well as allow them to become familiar with the phb. 3) Let them play the character. Help them out whenever you need to but let them experiment with their character. I have had more than average success with this approach.
jollythehappyminotaur 05-03-07, 09:02 PM	thanks everyone very usefull im sure this tread will be usefull to many other DMs as well. im going to go with the walk them through the character making process than jump in and tell them they can do anything method. First ill let him barrow and read through the PHB and make him take the online run through.... that should help him get a grasp of the combat.
daggeroflath 05-03-07, 09:13 PM	Everytime it seems to go wrong for me and while the new player enjoys himself the others get frustrated and dont really like it. I've never had a bad new player. Might just be lucky. Then again I've had plenty of bad experienced players. How do you deal with new players in an expirenced group. I treat them the same as everyone else. I tell them what their character's senses tell them, I explain any rules they're fuzzy on (I have to do this for the experienced players sometimes too) and ask them what their character does. Baring the 20 minutes at the beginning to explain the basic principles of D&D that's it. Any suggestions? Just include them. Don't be patronising, or give them everything they want or make them more powerful than anyone else. Just explain D&D (it's not that complex unless you get into individual rules), help them make a character and then start gaming. You learn by doing. Question: Are you teaching adults? Kids? In between? This is an important difference (I've only ever taught adults before, which might explain why it's gone so well).
tankschmidt 05-03-07, 09:18 PM	Some of the most creative role-players in my group are the newest players. One in particular is on his second campaign, so I guess he has only played for about 18 months. Another has only played four sessions or so, although he watched us a couple times before that. We (the more experienced players) help guide them through D&D 3.x's complicated combat system, by asking them what they want to do, and then helping them to accomplish that within the framework of the rules. One piece of advice I see often on these boards that I stongly disagree with is that a new player must read the Players Handbook cover to cover. That's nothing more than a 200 page onus. If you are joining an existing group, it's so much easier just to pick up on the rules as you go. Heck, I started playing with first edition AD&D, and I don't think I've ever read a rulebook from cover to cover. In my eyes, as long as one person has a decent handle on the rules, the rest will take care of itself.
jollythehappyminotaur 05-04-07, 05:38 PM	well dagger im 17 and i play mostly with people who are older than me and a few that are my age. All the people that ive taught were older than me far and the one im teaching now is 17. our first session is this weekend ill update you guys on how it went. This is an important topic for everyone im sure we have all had a new player at some point or will. So lets keep it going
Chimaera2000 05-04-07, 06:43 PM	I'm sure that you're not the only one who dreads teaching new players. In fact, I know it, given some of the answers on this thread. ;) I don't count myself amongst them, though. For me, teaching new people about D & D is actually one of the most rewarding parts of the game. After all, don't you remember when you started out with D & D? I sure do, and I had quite the experience with it! In my first session of D & D, I had no idea that I was playing a roleplaying game; I'd just been invited by a friend to another friend's house and BAM! D & D. I made a 3rd-level human sorcerer with no idea what I was doing at all, wearing studded leather armor and taking the Maxmize Spell feat. I didn't take a single attack spell until one of the guys took a look at my spell list and groaned when they realized I didn't have a single attack spell. This may have been OK now that I'm more experienced, but it was a big no-no in those days. Anyways, I swapped out a spell for magic missile, helped fight a horde of "lego-men miniature" kobolds, and actually helped save the party after one of the players convinced the DM to let me use my Alchemy skill to make a Molotov cocktail, then rolling a natural 20 on my attack roll. Despite the fireworks, I didn't actually have that much fun with the game. Why? I had no idea what I was doing. I find that it's a lot more to have a foundation of some kind when you're starting something new, no matter how minor it is. After you have some basics, then you can explore the rest of the game. Remember, I didn't even know what a roleplaying game was then because no one explained it to me. I just didn't get it. Now, contrast this with my experiences later when we started our first real D & D campaign. I had the time to look through the 3.0 Player's Handbook and ask the DM questions about the game. We played through the first part of the Sunless Citadel and even though I was still a new player, I knew enough about the game to really enjoy it and start to explore the game. That to me seems like the ultimate role of a teacher: provide others with a foundation of knowledge on which they can build anything they imagine. That's why I love teaching others so much; I know how much it enriches the game. Since I also know how much D & D is, I'm only too happy to teach others about the game if they want to learn about it.
=BR=Luckyshot 05-04-07, 08:13 PM	personally i dont mind teaching new players stuff.... but once in a great while ill get someone who asks if i can help them but insists that they know every little rule... these are the people that make me not want to teach anyone
Aetheryn 05-05-07, 01:21 AM	Well, if it makes you feel any better, I despise teaching people how to play too. Between people losing interest in under a week, or their parents going ballistic (religious conflicts mostly...:nonono: ), and the generic munchkin wannabe...sigh.