Post/Author/DateTime	Post
was_fired 08-31-05, 03:11 PM	I was up late last night and a thought occured to me. A lot of D&D mechanics break themselves because they were oversimplified. So lets make a list of these mechanics. 1. The barbarians ultimate weapon: Rock A 20th level half-orc barbarian who put everything into strength can lift a 11,200lb rock as a heavy load. With max ranks in jump he can jump 10ft up on a running jump with the run feat taking ten. Dropping an object is a free action which can be done during another action. A 11,200lb rock which falls from 10ft deals 113d6 damage. 2. Gate an efreet 3. Astral Harvesting: It never says gear goes away when the spell ends. 4. You need to be slowed in order to ready an action to charge a foe since otherwise charging is a fullround action. 5. It is impossible for a huge creature (say a titan) to force its way past three medium creatures standing next to each other in a hallway.
Seeker95 08-31-05, 03:29 PM	5. It is impossible for a huge creature (say a titan) to force its way past three medium creatures standing next to each other in a hallway.Unless he is friends with one of them. Suddenly a charm person spell gets useful in combat! :P
ieattrollsforbreakfast 08-31-05, 04:21 PM	5. It is impossible for a huge creature (say a titan) to force its way past three medium creatures standing next to each other in a hallway. Sure it can, just use the overrun action.
was_fired 08-31-05, 04:26 PM	Not quiet from the SRD, "You can attempt an overrun as a standard action... With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round." You can find the same information on page 157 of your player handbook. As you can see it states "opponent" (singular) and "his" (singular) then it goes on to mention you can only make one attempt a round which further reinforces the idea that you can only ever push past one creature a round.
Egres 08-31-05, 04:55 PM	I was up late last night and a thought occured to me. A lot of D&D mechanics break themselves because they were oversimplified. So lets make a list of these mechanics. 1. The barbarians ultimate weapon: Rock A 20th level half-orc barbarian who put everything into strength can lift a 11,200lb rock as a heavy load. With max ranks in jump he can jump 10ft up on a running jump with the run feat taking ten. Dropping an object is a free action which can be done during another action. A 11,200lb rock which falls from 10ft deals 113d6 damage. Perhaps you don't know that there's a cap for falling objects damage: 20d6.
Veton 08-31-05, 05:06 PM	4. You need to be slowed in order to ready an action to charge a foe since otherwise charging is a fullround action. The rules for charge state that you can use it as a standard or move action only if you are limited to using either one for the round. If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Draco Strang 08-31-05, 05:48 PM	If you think that's sick, check out the hulking hurler build on the CO boards.
Tealgorthian 08-31-05, 06:14 PM	Perhaps you don't there's a cap for falling objects damage: 20d6. Slight difference, that is the cap YOU take for falling damage. I.E. if you fall off a cliff, the most damage you can take is 20d6. Take a look a CW for the rules for huge objects hitting people.
was_fired 08-31-05, 07:21 PM	The rules for charge state that you can use it as a standard or move action only if you are limited to using either one for the round. Which is why I said that you need to be slowed (ie reduced to having a single move or standard action in one round) in order to ready a partial charge. Draco, but that one is core and possible for a PHB player race. :)
Arrowhen 08-31-05, 10:21 PM	5. It is impossible for a huge creature (say a titan) to force its way past three medium creatures standing next to each other in a hallway. Jump over them, if the ceiling's high enough. Grapple two of them and squeeze past the other one. Grapple one of them, move him behind you, drop him and squeeze past the other two. Moving him behind you requires a bit of a DM judgement call--if you move with a grappled (assuming you win the grapple check) or pinned creature, it moves with you. It seems reasonable that your "move" could consist of turning in place and setting him somewhere else. Trip the one in the middle and overrun one of the ones on the end, taking a -4 penalty for squeezing between the wall and the other opponent.
Dartanel 08-31-05, 11:49 PM	1. The barbarians ultimate weapon: Rock A 20th level half-orc barbarian who put everything into strength can lift a 11,200lb rock as a heavy load. With max ranks in jump he can jump 10ft up on a running jump with the run feat taking ten. Dropping an object is a free action which can be done during another action. A 11,200lb rock which falls from 10ft deals 113d6 damage. It's 1d6 per 200lbs. So it's 57d6.
Roreck 09-01-05, 12:17 AM	It's 1d6 per 200lbs. So it's 57d6. cause 57d6 is worthless :rolleyes: . not to mention your target is now stuck under a rock. also it would also make a good AoE which most classes lack.
SnowbearK 09-01-05, 12:33 AM	Can you use the run action while under a Heavy load? I haven't my PHB with me at the moment.
allenchan 09-01-05, 12:44 AM	I think the whole instantly turning anything made of wood into a pile of clubs/quarterstaves is pretty amusing.
guru7892 09-01-05, 01:03 AM	you could also use sleight of hand to encumber your target with lead weights evil halfling wizard: since when did i gain so much weight? damn bon-bons!
Rake 09-01-05, 01:14 AM	When you're using this rock trick, are you talking about a 10ft jump straight up? It looks as though you are. I ask because when you drop an object as a part of another action, it drops straight down to your feet. Same for your weapon if you're disarmed. You can't 'drop' an object five feet in front of you. And there's a million ways for a titan to bypass three men standing abreast. That's just a silly statement.
Nurgan_the_drunked 09-01-05, 04:26 AM	Let's not forget the row of commoners 30ft apart who can accelerate a rock to the speed of sound Commoner1: move up to commoner 2, drop rock in his square (free action) Commoner2: pick up rock(move), move up to commoner3(move) drop rock (free) Commoner3: pick up rock(move), move up to commoner4(move) drop rock (free) .... Commoner 128:pick up rock The rock will have moved over 3000ft in 6 seconds
Egres 09-01-05, 06:01 AM	Slight difference, that is the cap YOU take for falling damage. I.E. if you fall off a cliff, the most damage you can take is 20d6. Take a look a CW for the rules for huge objects hitting people. You might want to take a look at page 303 of the DMG 3.5.
Egres 09-01-05, 06:03 AM	You can't 'drop' an object five feet in front of you. From the SRD: Drop an Item Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.
Zherog 09-01-05, 08:09 AM	And there's a million ways for a titan to bypass three men standing abreast. That's just a silly statement. I was going to tell you to name 'em, but that'd just be mean. :D So - give me 10. Don't use common sense - just the rules. My guess is the best you'll come up with will require several rounds to accomplish.
Zherog 09-01-05, 08:14 AM	3. Astral Harvesting: It never says gear goes away when the spell ends. This is the astral projection craziness, right? Where it makes a duplicate of you and your gear? On a similar note, there's balor vorpal sword mining.
Ehlijen Iswa Tschingjo 09-01-05, 08:39 AM	As seen on these boards: Passing an object around the world in 6 seconds... Bag of rats (am I really the first to mention it?)... Destroying the world by placing a permanent wall of force in space where the planet is going to pass through in a years time.... And one of mine An average commoner only has a 55% chance of hitting a tree with an axe. 0 Bab+ 0 Str -4 non proficiency = attack bonus of -4 against ac 5 (assuming a tree without size penalty (2m diameter)) requires a 9 to hit. And then we end up with d6 damage going into hardness 5. Where does all the wood come from? Commoners ain't gonna cut it!
Egres 09-01-05, 09:59 AM	An average commoner only has a 55% chance of hitting a tree with an axe. 0 Bab+ 0 Str -4 non proficiency = attack bonus of -4 against ac 5 (assuming a tree without size penalty (2m diameter)) requires a 9 to hit. Nope. From the SRD: Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon. And then we end up with d6 damage going into hardness 5. Where does all the wood come from? Commoners ain't gonna cut it! Uhm? 1 hit every 6 will be a 6, dealing 1 damage to the tree. A few hits and the tree will fall.
Bardicstorm 09-01-05, 10:48 AM	As seen on these boards: An average commoner only has a 55% chance of hitting a tree with an axe. 0 Bab+ 0 Str -4 non proficiency = attack bonus of -4 against ac 5 (assuming a tree without size penalty (2m diameter)) requires a 9 to hit. And then we end up with d6 damage going into hardness 5. Where does all the wood come from? Commoners ain't gonna cut it! As Egres mentioned, but one could also assume that unless the tree is a treant or animated, then the tree can be considered helpless and thus it becomes possible to use a coup de grace, guaranteeing a critical hit with the axe. Now, technically a tree has no visible anatomy and is thus immune to critical hits, but I'd allow it in my game for brevity. Of course, I would also rule that a tree's hardness is variable depending on the type of wood... Oak my have hardness of 5, but balsa wood does not. Then of course you have the fact that cutting down a tree is not technically an attack and is actually a skill. If you wanted to use weapon attack/damage rules to adjucate such a skill, the woodcutter could always take 10 and hit. No matter how you look at it though, the rules do not preclude commoners from chopping down trees.
Pfisiar 09-01-05, 11:12 AM	Let's not forget the row of commoners 30ft apart who can accelerate a rock to the speed of sound Commoner1: move up to commoner 2, drop rock in his square (free action) Commoner2: pick up rock(move), move up to commoner3(move) drop rock (free) Commoner3: pick up rock(move), move up to commoner4(move) drop rock (free) .... Commoner 128:pick up rock The rock will have moved over 3000ft in 6 seconds One: Common sense prevails where the rules are vague. This is impossible. Second: Again, common sense would tell you that there is a limit of how many free actions can be taken in one round. Third: Since the previous free actions take at least some time to accomplish, the rock could not move more then 3-4 times before the 6 second round time is up. Common Sense people. Common sense.
anshar 09-01-05, 11:13 AM	Let's not forget the row of commoners 30ft apart who can accelerate a rock to the speed of sound Commoner1: move up to commoner 2, drop rock in his square (free action) Commoner2: pick up rock(move), move up to commoner3(move) drop rock (free) Commoner3: pick up rock(move), move up to commoner4(move) drop rock (free) .... Commoner 128:pick up rock The rock will have moved over 3000ft in 6 seconds And this is why a bucket brigade is a *good* way to fight a fire. LOL!
Arrowhen 09-01-05, 03:51 PM	Don't use common sense - just the rules. The rules are useless without common sense. In previous editions we all knew that the rules were flawed and incomplete and we understood that using common sense to adjudicate situations not covered by the rules was one of the DM's primary duties. As the game has grown and become more complex over the years, belief in the ultimate authority and sanctity of the rules has increased. This attitude may sell more rule books, but it's detrimental to the game itself.
was_fired 09-01-05, 04:20 PM	The point of this thread is to point out where the rules fail because the authors didn't bother increasing their complexity slightly in order to allow to better account for common sense (which would require the creation of a house rule). As for the titan grappling two of the humans, he can't by the RAW. Only creatures with improved grab have the option of taking a -20 to their grapple checks in order to avoid being considered grappled (and thus allowing them to threaten an area and grab another human). Also since the titan would (by the grapple rules) be required to move into the humans square, which he could not, the grapple would fail. Remember, "If you can't move into your target's space, you can't maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target" (PHB 156). Also for your second example care to point me to where in the rules for prone characters it allows foes to automaticly pass through their space?
Arrowhen 09-01-05, 05:24 PM	The point of this thread is to point out where the rules fail because the authors didn't bother increasing their complexity slightly in order to allow to better account for common sense (which would require the creation of a house rule). Rules are tools. They're there to help you figure out what to do in situations where you can't just decide for yourself. When a situation arises that isn't covered by the rules, the solution isn't "add more rules", it's "admit that no set of rules can cover everything." No matter how many levels of complexity you add, you're always going to run into situations the rules don't cover. As for the titan grappling two of the humans, he can't by the RAW. Only creatures with improved grab have the option of taking a -20 to their grapple checks in order to avoid being considered grappled (and thus allowing them to threaten an area and grab another human). Also since the titan would (by the grapple rules) be required to move into the humans square, which he could not, the grapple would fail. Remember, "If you can't move into your target's space, you can't maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target" (PHB 156). Also for your second example care to point me to where in the rules for prone characters it allows foes to automaticly pass through their space? Good points. You can see how often grappling gets used in my campaign. ;) Honestly, if this situation were to arise in my game I'd just say, "Look, I know you can't normally make more than one overrun per round, but you guys ARE standing right next to each other, and this IS a FREAKIN' TITAN we're talking about..." Bending a rule is infinitely better than breaking suspension of disbelief.
9mm of Mercy 09-01-05, 05:43 PM	Just what is this 'bag of rats' trick that everyone but me seems to know about? I've been here a while and it is brought up every now and then. Could someone point me to the thread or maybe a quick explanation of it? Seems like this is the place to do it.
Lina_Inverse 09-01-05, 05:47 PM	Just what is this 'bag of rats' trick that everyone but me seems to know about? I've been here a while and it is brought up every now and then. Could someone point me to the thread or maybe a quick explanation of it? Seems like this is the place to do it. notice how whirlwind says you cant get extra attacks if you use it?that is the bag of rats trick. whirlwind+great cleave+bag of rats.
allenchan 09-01-05, 06:01 PM	Just what is this 'bag of rats' trick that everyone but me seems to know about? I've been here a while and it is brought up every now and then. Could someone point me to the thread or maybe a quick explanation of it? Seems like this is the place to do it. Eh, I dont recall the details but I'm 99% sure it only worked in 3.0, and not in 3.5. I think it involved whirlwind attacking all the rats, and then cleaving over and over again another target? I might be totally off here.
Kothardarastrix 09-01-05, 06:15 PM	You want to see an amusing abuse of the rules, go to the deity and planes board and look for the How To Get A Gods Attention thread, someone oughta shoot that kids DM in the head.
StormKnight 09-01-05, 06:38 PM	If you think that's sick, check out the hulking hurler build on the CO boards. The much-maligned Hulking Hurler is really sort of a red herring. Any character with huge strength could use the heavy object damage rules, pick up something gigantic, and drop it on someone for ridiculous damage. The Hurler just makes it obvious. On a similar note, there's balor vorpal sword mining. This one doesn't even work by the rules. Either its an item and you don't get it at all, or its a supernatural ability, and you get it but then it GOES away like the rest of your supernatural abilities. You don't think you get to keep breathing fire after you are done being a dragon do you?
was_fired 09-01-05, 06:50 PM	Rules are tools. They're there to help you figure out what to do in situations where you can't just decide for yourself. When a situation arises that isn't covered by the rules, the solution isn't "add more rules", it's "admit that no set of rules can cover everything." ... Honestly, if this situation were to arise in my game I'd just say, "Look, I know you can't normally make more than one overrun per round, but you guys ARE standing right next to each other, and this IS a FREAKIN' TITAN we're talking about..." Bending a rule is infinitely better than breaking suspension of disbelief. This is where we disagree. I believe that these problems can by in large be solved by increasing the degree of complexity marginly. Such as allowing any creature to pull other creatures into their space with a grapple with still being able to move freely and threaten an area by taking a -20. Or by allowing multi-bullrush and over-run attempts by applying a penalty. Or judging falling damage by weight using the same rules used for carrying capacity. When you encounter a problem in the rules the best solution isn't to stick your head in the sand. The best solution is to look at the problem and see if you can find a better mechanic to replace the broken one. If that is impossible see if you can find a patch for it. If that is impossible then you can stick your head in the sand.
Arrowhen 09-01-05, 07:11 PM	When you encounter a problem in the rules the best solution isn't to stick your head in the sand. I don't see where sticking your head in the sand has anything to do with this discussion. To me, sticking your head in the sand would mean pretending that the problem with the rules simply didn't exist. The best solution is to look at the problem and see if you can find a better mechanic to replace the broken one. If that is impossible see if you can find a patch for it. If that is impossible then you can stick your head in the sand. If a rule doesn't work, why do you assume you need a new rule to fix it? The object of D&D isn't to follow the rules, it's to get together with your friends and create and participate in exciting imaginary adventures together. The rules are there to help you achieve that goal, nothing more.
anarco_rata 09-01-05, 07:41 PM	so you guys are saying that we shoukld be making rules for every little thinga nd every litle exeption yo might encounter? THAT has a lot of common sense. No, use the rules, when they're slowing down the game, bend them, broke'em, forget'em, this is not a competition that has to be played by te books, this is a game for having fun, like the games we use to play when we where childs, there only really needs to be one rule: everybody has to have fun.
was_fired 09-01-05, 09:40 PM	No, I'm suggesting many of the rules in question should be reworked because they are broken in that they: a. Break suspension of disbelief, b. Slow the game down, and c. Make it so players don't enjoy themselves as much. Broken rules should be fixed provided the solution is not worse than the problem it is attempting to solve. In the case of overrun, why make it so you can only overrun one creature at a time? In the case of grappling why can't anyone take a -20? In the case of falling damage by weight why use a linear system for damage which is based on an exponential increase that we all know is broken? The last thing a DM should ever say is that, "You simply aren't allowed." Instead it should be, "You can't do that yet."
OmiKapSi 09-01-05, 11:30 PM	Ok, here's my example of how hit points will need houseruling at some point in any campaign: A man strapped to a table and held totally immobile has a sword run through his gut (there's a hole in the table to allow the sword to pass all the way through). The sword is run through his gut 9 times. It's a very simple thrust, clear through, and then out. The man is left unattended for 24 hours, at which point he is nearly completely healed. How? The man on the table is a 16th level barbarian. He has a Con of 16, and the Great Fortitude feats. Seeing the thrust coming, he rages, bringing his fortitude save to +19 (+10 base, +6 [Improved] Con, +3 Feat). The sword thrust is a coup de grace delivered by a strength 10 character with a longsword. It automatically criticals, and deals 2 to 16 damage. With the barbarians DR, this is reduced to 0 to 12, which puts the fortitude save at 10 to 22, meaning the barbarian needs a 3 or better to survive if the CDG deals maximum damage. Assuming average rolls, the DC will only be 21 or higher less than 10% of the time, meaning that in 9 thrusts there might be one, the rest will be automatically passed. An average of 5 damage is taken per thrust, since an average critical will deal 9 damage, 4 of which is negated. So a total of 45 damage is taken per thrust, assuming average rolls. Left unattended and immobile, the barbarian is easily considered to have taken a day and night of bed rest, healing 32 of the 45 damage, leaving him missing only 13 of (average) 135 hit points, at better than 90% health. I'll post more later, I find these sorts of things amusing.
Seeker95 09-01-05, 11:53 PM	Which is why hit points are described as a combination of fortitude, luck, health, and skill. In this case, the unbelievable part is how a 16th level barbarian got tied to a table in the first place (assuming it is a PC, and the rules of the game were equally followed.)
allenchan 09-01-05, 11:54 PM	Yeeeaaa, at level 16, you're -supposed- to be that hard to kill. The whole, ya know, being high level hero thing.
Vaelan 09-02-05, 03:44 AM	So - give me 10. Easy. 1. The titan uses its Chain Lightning spell-like ability to kill the three humanoids. 2. The titan uses its Fire Storm spell-like ability to kill the three humanoids. 3. The titan uses its Word of Chaos spell-like ability to kill the three humanoids. 4. The titan uses its Meteor Swarm spell-like ability to kill the three humanoids. 5. The titan uses its Holy Smite/Unholy Blight spell-like ability to kill the three humanoids. 6. Gate as a spell like ability once per day, need I say more? 7. Etherealness as a spell like ability once per day, need I say more?. 8. The titan uses its Maze spell-like ability to remove one human and bullrushes the other while squeezing past the third (thus taking a -4 on the bull rush). 9. The titan levitates, flattens himself against the ceiling, and pulls himself along. 10. The titan charms all three of them with his Charm Monster spell-like ability usable at will and they all go out for drinks. Also, couldn't a titan enter their squares anyway because he is two size categories larger? And then we end up with d6 damage going into hardness 5. Where does all the wood come from? Commoners ain't gonna cut it! Using the appropriate tool causes you to deal double damage to objects. Using an axe to cut down a tree is even one of the examples given in the PHB. In this case, an axe is supposedly the appropriate tool for cutting down trees thus making it deal 2d6 damage per round for an average of 2 damage which equates to each chop taking out a fifth of an inch of your generic D&D wood. Lumberjacks should definitely have more than 10 Strength, though, thus speeding up the process significantly.
Nurgan_the_drunked 09-02-05, 04:54 AM	Eh, I dont recall the details but I'm 99% sure it only worked in 3.0, and not in 3.5. I think it involved whirlwind attacking all the rats, and then cleaving over and over again another target? I might be totally off here. In 3.0 You would drop a bag of rats, Whirlwind attack hitting everyone in your square and adjacent, killing a lot of the rats, and getting a bonus cleave attack from each rat you killed. In 3.5, you use the slightly less ridiculous method of having Combat Reflexes, dropping the bag, taking an attack of opportunity on each rat as they leave your square, and get a Great Cleave attack off each one, as well as a standard attack. The other loophole to the bag of rats trick in 3.5 is that it's not a lot of single rats: it's a swarm of rats: so a single monster, just one cleave. And yes common sense prevails. I'm not saying this tactic would work (anyone trying to get peasants to demolish walls with hypersonic rocks is unlikely to have much success), just that by the rules, it does. Unfortunately, we're normally dealing with heroes, who can have the rules bent for them. You've got to draw a line between maintaining common sense, and getting bogged down in the dreaded "realism".
Zherog 09-02-05, 08:14 AM	Easy. <<snipped the list>> All very good methods - but all take a round longer than the overrun would have taken, unless, of course, our Titan also has the Quicken Spell-like Ability feat. :) Also, couldn't a titan enter their squares anyway because he is two size categories larger? You need to be three size categories larger or smaller. From the SRD: Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is. A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. So, if we advanced our titan to 31 Hit Die, he'd become Gargantuan and then we could do this. :)
Vaelan 09-02-05, 08:41 AM	All very good methods - but all take a round longer than the overrun would have taken, unless, of course, our Titan also has the Quicken Spell-like Ability feat. :) Only for his Chain Lightning spell-like ability. I found another way that is a little closer to what you had in mind. Bull-rush the middle human. When you push him back, opt to follow and attempt a DC 30 Escape Artist check to squeeze into the spot that is now vacated. If you manage to push him twenty feet back, the other two humans are behind you and thus cannot rejoin their comrade to reform their line. With a base speed of 60 feet, I'm betting a Titan could pull it off if it had any ranks in Escape Artist. And the titan could just polymorph into a humanoid form and bull-rush through in his new medium form, though it doesn't work quite as well as the Escape Artist scenario.
anarco_rata 09-02-05, 10:37 AM	No, I'm suggesting many of the rules in question should be reworked because they are broken in that they: a. Break suspension of disbelief, b. Slow the game down, and c. Make it so players don't enjoy themselves as much. Broken rules should be fixed provided the solution is not worse than the problem it is attempting to solve. In the case of overrun, why make it so you can only overrun one creature at a time? In the case of grappling why can't anyone take a -20? In the case of falling damage by weight why use a linear system for damage which is based on an exponential increase that we all know is broken? The last thing a DM should ever say is that, "You simply aren't allowed." Instead it should be, "You can't do that yet." House rule! not even that, use "the common sense rule", in the example of the barbarian, i would simply say: you're dead, when the player says: but i still have 1xx hp! i'll just say: you're human, the guy pirced your throat with a freaking sword, YOU ARE DEATH (serves you right for gettin caught) We don't need no complicated rules, the one we have works just fine, the only problem are players that use them in un-scrupollous (ok, that was hard to write, i know is got lots of mistakes;))ways. Just like every system. There will always be loopholes in every rule system, and people who abuse them, the good thing is that, unlike in pollitics or corporate world, WE decide who we play with. I gotta admit, the Rock throwing barbarian was funny, and the inmortal barbarian was something i thought about a long time ago too.
larrycrack 09-02-05, 03:36 PM	Wu Jen spell of Giant Size... A medium dwarven waraxe in the hands of a dwarf becomes Colossal with a weapon that now does 8d8 damage. Imagine some other weapons which could be in place of the dwarven waraxe. The above example happened in our game... in one hit (critical-hit) the dwarf did 319 points of damage.
feartheinvinceblehamster 09-02-05, 04:18 PM	ouch. my dad fast talking a black dragon trying to kill us into becoming his pet and accepting the name "fluffles"...at 1st level
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-02-05, 08:25 PM	You might want to take a look at page 303 of the DMG 3.5. You might want to reread that page, and note the way the sentence is structured. 20d6 is the maximum for height. There is no listed maximum for weight.
Dartanel 09-02-05, 11:16 PM	The man on the table is a 16th level barbarian. He has a Con of 16, and the Great Fortitude feats. Seeing the thrust coming, he rages, bringing his fortitude save to +19 (+10 base, +6 [Improved] Con, +3 Feat). The sword thrust is a coup de grace delivered by a strength 10 character with a longsword. It automatically criticals, and deals 2 to 16 damage. With the barbarians DR, this is reduced to 0 to 12, which puts the fortitude save at 10 to 22, meaning the barbarian needs a 3 or better to survive if the CDG deals maximum damage. Assuming average rolls, the DC will only be 21 or higher less than 10% of the time, meaning that in 9 thrusts there might be one, the rest will be automatically passed. An average of 5 damage is taken per thrust, since an average critical will deal 9 damage, 4 of which is negated. So a total of 45 damage is taken per thrust, assuming average rolls. Left unattended and immobile, the barbarian is easily considered to have taken a day and night of bed rest, healing 32 of the 45 damage, leaving him missing only 13 of (average) 135 hit points, at better than 90% health. I'll post more later, I find these sorts of things amusing. So, joe farmer vs. a man who can repel arrows with his callouses and probably wrench the sword out of his hands with his abs? I don't find it that far fetched. :)
Seeker95 09-02-05, 11:17 PM	You might want to reread that page, and note the way the sentence is structured. 20d6 is the maximum for height. There is no listed maximum for weight.The 20d6 for maximum height is independent of weight. As an independent restriction, it applies across the board. Regardless of the intuitive inconsistency such a rule may entail.
Tealgorthian 09-02-05, 11:25 PM	The 20d6 for maximum height is independent of weight. As an independent restriction, it applies across the board. Regardless of the intuitive inconsistency such a rule may entail. It does not apply to improved throwing weapons, however, unless you houserule it to such. Not that it is an unreasonable houserule. A large(weight) thrown object does more damage than a small (weight) thrown object. A large object and a small object take the same amount of damage from falling a terminal velocity, because of the nature of terminal velocity. D&D doesn't deal with surface area damage, thank the Gods.
OmiKapSi 09-03-05, 01:02 AM	To those who think that the barbarian should survive a sword thrust to the gut, that's not the point. He's not just surviving a sword thrust, he's surviving being impaled, 9 times, and then left to die. And not only is he surviving, he's nearly fully healed in 24 hours. He could survive a repeat quite easily. If he were impaled only 2 less times, he'd be at full health in 24 hours. Heck, it's entirely conceivable that, using the rules as written, he could be impaled 5 times a day for a week, and receive no medical treatment, and be in perfect shape the following day. Now, granted, he's a very high level, but I'm pretty sure that if Tarzan were subjected to that sort of treatment, and had the same results, there's be a few raised eyebrows.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-03-05, 02:23 AM	The 20d6 for maximum height is independent of weight. As an independent restriction, it applies across the board. Regardless of the intuitive inconsistency such a rule may entail. Do you want me to quote the relevant section? "For each 200 pounds of an objects weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage)." - 3.5 DMG, page 303 See the bolded period? It seperates the two rules. The 20d6 cap only applies to damage from height. It's basic grammar.
Egres 09-03-05, 08:53 AM	Do you want me to quote the relevant section? "For each 200 pounds of an objects weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage)." - 3.5 DMG, page 303 See the bolded period? It seperates the two rules. The 20d6 cap only applies to damage from height. It's basic grammar. Actually, I interpret that sentence in this way:"the two combined elements, hight and weight, cannot exceed a 20d6 cap damage".
Bardicstorm 09-03-05, 09:31 AM	Actually, I interpret that sentence in this way:"the two combined elements, hight and weight, cannot exceed a 20d6 cap damage". Raymond_Luxury_Yacht is actually quite right in the interpretation. If the cap was to apply to both rules, it would have been a seperate sentence or reworded to say: The maximum damage dealt by a falling object cannot exceed 20d6. They do try to write the rules as clearly as possible.
Zherog 09-03-05, 12:19 PM	To those who think that the barbarian should survive a sword thrust to the gut, that's not the point. He's not just surviving a sword thrust, he's surviving being impaled, 9 times, and then left to die. And not only is he surviving, he's nearly fully healed in 24 hours. He could survive a repeat quite easily. If he were impaled only 2 less times, he'd be at full health in 24 hours. Heck, it's entirely conceivable that, using the rules as written, he could be impaled 5 times a day for a week, and receive no medical treatment, and be in perfect shape the following day. Now, granted, he's a very high level, but I'm pretty sure that if Tarzan were subjected to that sort of treatment, and had the same results, there's be a few raised eyebrows. Of course, you're making the assumption that being strapped to a table constitutes bed rest. I personally think this is the flaw in your entire premise - as a DM, I certainly wouldn't call that bed rest.
OmiKapSi 09-03-05, 12:39 PM	So it's a comfortable table, he's just being held immobilised. It doesn't change anything. I'll admit that qualifying the situation as bed rest was a bit of a stretch, but since he's reclining and totally inactive, it's not much of one. However, the rules are clear about the fact that 8 hours of sleep are all that are needed to heal ones level in hit points. So if we halve the number of impalings, taking it down to 2 a day, the result is the same. I find it quite amusing that you think that this is significant, that being impaled and surviving, under the circumstances given, isn't enough of an example of rules quirkiness. I don't care what level the character is. Steel in ones gut is not something that anyone can shrug off, no matter how 'legendary' they are. The only reason anyone survives that sort of thing in stories is that they are immediately tended to, and even then it's a long road to recovery. The simple fact is that there is no system in the rules to account for blood loss. Not that I think there should be one, it's complicated enough already. But the whole point of this thread was 'amusing rules abuses'. This is an amusing abuse of the hit point rules.
allenchan 09-03-05, 03:20 PM	So it's a comfortable table, he's just being held immobilised. It doesn't change anything. I'll admit that qualifying the situation as bed rest was a bit of a stretch, but since he's reclining and totally inactive, it's not much of one. However, the rules are clear about the fact that 8 hours of sleep are all that are needed to heal ones level in hit points. So if we halve the number of impalings, taking it down to 2 a day, the result is the same. I find it quite amusing that you think that this is significant, that being impaled and surviving, under the circumstances given, isn't enough of an example of rules quirkiness. I don't care what level the character is. Steel in ones gut is not something that anyone can shrug off, no matter how 'legendary' they are. The only reason anyone survives that sort of thing in stories is that they are immediately tended to, and even then it's a long road to recovery. The simple fact is that there is no system in the rules to account for blood loss. Not that I think there should be one, it's complicated enough already. But the whole point of this thread was 'amusing rules abuses'. This is an amusing abuse of the hit point rules. For one, i still fail to see how this is "Abusing" the rules. Secondly, I think the barbarian would succeed on a strength check long befoer then and break off the table and swuish the little man stabbing him. Third, its only so silyl because you -made- it silly. If the person in question had a strength higher then 10 and used a weapon like, say, a scythe, the outcome wouldnt be nearly as outlandish.
Lina_Inverse 09-03-05, 05:04 PM	To those who think that the barbarian should survive a sword thrust to the gut, that's not the point. He's not just surviving a sword thrust, he's surviving being impaled, 9 times, and then left to die. And not only is he surviving, he's nearly fully healed in 24 hours. He could survive a repeat quite easily. If he were impaled only 2 less times, he'd be at full health in 24 hours. Heck, it's entirely conceivable that, using the rules as written, he could be impaled 5 times a day for a week, and receive no medical treatment, and be in perfect shape the following day. Now, granted, he's a very high level, but I'm pretty sure that if Tarzan were subjected to that sort of treatment, and had the same results, there's be a few raised eyebrows. what a RIDICULOUS double standard. its OK that a huge lizard can fly. its OK when a guy in pointy hat and robes can call down missile strikes by pointing and saying fireball. its OK some guy can literally call down the wrath of god and raise the dead. its OK someone can run faster than a car. but its NOT ok for a warrior with the skill to slay armies to survive a sword wound to the chest?
Seeker95 09-03-05, 06:52 PM	He's not just surviving a sword thrust, he's surviving being impaled, 9 times, and then left to die. And not only is he surviving, he's nearly fully healed in 24 hours.Two completely independent facets. The first facet: He is surviving being impaled 9 times and left to die. Big deal. In the real world, skydivers have fallen 10,000+ feet and lived. Entire television shows are based on the "amazing" survival of folks landing on fences, getting hit by an out of control nail gun, having half their brain blown away by a shotgun, and getting shot multiple times as point blank range. Surviving impossible conditions happens. In D&D, it is assumed you are playing a hero -- above average in just about every way. In-game, the commoner shoulda stabbed him a tenth time. The second facet: He is nearly fully healed in 24 hours. This is a class ability. It comes with the game. Introducing it into your scenario is like saying it is a rule abuse to have a gnome use his prestidigitation ability.
OmiKapSi 09-03-05, 08:16 PM	Abuse can mean the improper use of something (such as abusing drugs). This is an abuse of the rules because it is an improper application of the rules. The hit point rules were designed to deal with simplistic generic combat situations. It's left up to the GM to decide what happens in situations where application of the rules is not as appropriate. This is such a case. Do you know what the DC to break manacles is? It's 26. Supposing the barbarian in question had a 16 strength, which was upped to 22 by his rage, he'd still need a 20 on a strength check to "break off the table and squish the little man stabbing him". Supposing he was able to make the checks at all, having terrible leverage and a sword being repeatedly run through his gut, he'd still only have a less than 50% chance of breaking the manacles, assuming he made a check every round for the 9 rounds. And I didn't 'make it silly', I used a perfectly reasonable situation. This is a point where the rules fall apart. And you know what? Even if a greataxe were used, the average damage would be 20, which his DR would drop to 16, making the survival DC 26, meaning he'd need a 7 or better to survive. To clarify, he's still got a 2/3 chance of surviving being bisected by a greataxe. The fact that a scythe has a better chance to kill him is actually less believable. If I were offered a choice of weapons to butcher an animal, the last thing I'd take would be a freaking scythe. I've used them. They're only good for cutting wheat. The statistics given for them as a weapon are bizarre at best, but more likely outright fabrications. As for the double standard, it's not just a 'sword wound to the chest'. Did you even read the portion that you quoted? It's 'being impaled 5 times a day for a week and receiving no medical treatment'. As for the amazing survivors who are so publicized, that's a skewed view. We do see a lot of media coverage of these sorts of things. What we don't see is coverage of all the situations where these circumstances transpire and the people don't survive. I assure you, these things are newsworthy because they are rare, not just because there is interest. There's a reason that people jump off of high places to commit suicide. And yes, in game his attacker should have stabbed him a 10th time, if he wanted to kill the barbarian. Not that that would have made a big difference. The numbers I gave were to highlight the averages, and the fact that this should not be an average occurance. And the healing is not a class ability, it's the normal healing rate outlined in the players handbook. A wizard of equivalent level would heal at the same rate, he'd just be less likely to make the fortitude save to survive the CDG. -edit. Now, I'm done trying to explain this one, I don't want to hijack this thread. This is supposed to be light-hearted and amusing, not a courtroom drama. So, next amusing rules abuse: King cobra venom isn't particularly toxic. However, their bite typically administers enough of this venom to kill an elephant. If we look up the statistics for a medium viper (the closest approximation of a king cobra) we find that the venom DC is a measly 10. An elephant has a fortitude save of +12. I'm wondering what sort of snake they were looking at when they made these venom DCs.
Zherog 09-03-05, 08:30 PM	The man on the table is a 16th level barbarian. He has a Con of 16, ... Do you know what the DC to break manacles is? It's 26. Supposing the barbarian in question had a 16 strength ... So... you have a 16th level barbarian, and his best stat is 16? I mean, I understand that his magic items are stripped away, so we don't have our belt of giant strength +6 or our amulet of health +6 or whatever magic item. But 16 is our best stat? For a barbarian, where you can conceivably dump all three mental stats and not suffer horribly?
DrowSmurf 09-03-05, 08:31 PM	And then we end up with d6 damage going into hardness 5. Where does all the wood come from? Commoners ain't gonna cut it! ....perhaps they have a favored enemy tree? lol
DrowSmurf 09-03-05, 08:35 PM	if i understand correctly... then the maximum falling damage one can take is 20d6... where in this case it would be 1d6 for falling 10ft..... where as object weight damage is not capped... so the 11k pound rock would do a huge chunk of damage... honestly now... think about it... if an 11THOUSAND POUND ROCK! cannot kill someone around 10th lvl... then soemthing is MAJORLY wrong with D&D in general...even from 10ft
Seeker95 09-03-05, 09:54 PM	if an 11 THOUSAND POUND ROCK cannot kill someone around 10th lvl... then something is MAJORLY wrong with D&D in general...even from 10ftIt can. Anything that causes 50 or more points of damage can cause death from massive damage. Fail a Fortitude save and any character, even a 20th-level uber-munchkinized no-attention-to-balance five-different-PrCs character, will die.
DrowSmurf 09-03-05, 11:17 PM	...ok way to lessen my... point lol jk jk i totally forgot about the massive damage thing... darn you !!!
Earthcrosser599 09-04-05, 12:00 AM	What's the DC for massive damage? I've only found one number and it was pitifully low.
OmiKapSi 09-04-05, 01:18 AM	Except that massive damage under the RAW is pretty much ignored by anyone who it should affect (high level characters with enough hit points to survive a nuclear explosion). It's based on a fortitude save, with a DC of 15... The only ones with any likelyhood to fail that when it's relevant are arcane casters and rogues. That's almost a 'rule abuse' right there. Oh, and zherog, I was assuming a 16 con for my example, when I could have gone much higher to support it (an easy 26 con if he was a dwarf built with point buy and a single +2 inherent bonus). I decided to use a 16 for the assumed strength for breaking manacles, when I could have gone lower. In either case, 16 wasn't necessarily his highest stat, it was just a moderate attribute to assign to the case in question. Now, lets suppose I made the same case with a Gnome Paladin with 20 con and 24 charisma... (His fortitude saves would be +25, and he could take hits any time, not just while raging) Here's another one: A half-orc, 8th level Fighter with Strength 20 (base 16, increased +2 racial, and twice for leveling) and the athletics feat and full ranks in swim. His base modifier is +18. If he is wearing full plate armor and carrying 300 pounds worth of gear, he only applies the encumbrance penalty or the armor check penalty (-6) twice, so his modifier is still +6. According to the RAW, he can stay afloat in rough water for an hour with no risk of drowning (by taking 10). This is despite the fact that he'd have an incredible amount of negative bouyancy, and it would be physically impossible. :)
Earthcrosser599 09-04-05, 03:00 AM	Okay, so I wasn't wrong. I've never run into a cirumstance where massive damage was an issue, even when PCs and monsters are doing 50+ damage a hit. Even against spellcasters. DC 15 is a joke.
allenchan 09-04-05, 03:22 AM	Okay, so I wasn't wrong. I've never run into a cirumstance where massive damage was an issue, even when PCs and monsters are doing 50+ damage a hit. Even against spellcasters. DC 15 is a joke. Until you roll a 1. ;)
Arrowhen 09-04-05, 04:49 AM	As for the amazing survivors who are so publicized, that's a skewed view. We do see a lot of media coverage of these sorts of things. What we don't see is coverage of all the situations where these circumstances transpire and the people don't survive. I assure you, these things are newsworthy because they are rare, not just because there is interest. Yes, these amazing feats of survival are rare... just like 16th level barbarians should be. If you need to blame this "problem" on something, don't blame it on the hit point rules, blame it on the ridiculously fast level advancement in 3rd edition. There was a time when it took years of adventuring to hit 16th level. These days, players complain if their characters don't go up to 2nd level in the very first session of the campaign--if you can even find players who will deign to start at 1st level. Of course, if you don't rush characters through the low levels at breakneck speed you won't sell as many expensive books full of prestige classes, now, will you?
Elemental 09-04-05, 08:56 AM	Realism debates and now edition warriors...this thread seems to be lacking the amusing. In any case, there was a great post prior to the board revision, where it was argued in jest that possessing the 'dead' condition would not stop someone from moving around, fighting and gaining EXP, because it did not mention it prohibited these things. Also, since dead creatures could not lose further hit points, could not be turned (they were dead, not undead) and could not be cut up with called shots, they were effectively invulnerable. Yup, it made absolutely no sense, but by the rules as written, it was totally legal. In the same vein, it's impossible to stake an active vampire by the rules, because you can't make called shots and undead are immune to crits.
Fargren 09-04-05, 09:43 AM	Here's another one: A half-orc, 8th level Fighter with Strength 20 (base 16, increased +2 racial, and twice for leveling) and the athletics feat and full ranks in swim. His base modifier is +18. If he is wearing full plate armor and carrying 300 pounds worth of gear, he only applies the encumbrance penalty or the armor check penalty (-6) twice, so his modifier is still +6. According to the RAW, he can stay afloat in rough water for an hour with no risk of drowning (by taking 10). This is despite the fact that he'd have an incredible amount of negative bouyancy, and it would be physically impossible. :) mmmh...Stenght 18. That'smore than what's humanly possible. So, i guess it's not that wild that he cna do things humans cant do. He can also carry 133 lbs around for a day, and don't even notice it. And that's more than what i weight...
Lina_Inverse 09-04-05, 12:06 PM	watch me make hitpoints make sense. positive energy heals. positive energy is the stuff of life. all living things must have -some- positive energy therefore. hitpoints=amount of positive energy in body. he stabs the barbarian,the barbarians positive energy restores him. wouldnt that be a coup degrace anyways?giveing the barbarian a chance to die instantly each time? HOW does a fricken commoner have a barbarian on a table anyways..........
Gilean 09-04-05, 12:39 PM	The immortal barbarian thingy... Assuming that the barbarian fails only on a natural 1 and dies. And is stabbed 9 times. The chances of survival are (1-(1/20))^9 ~= 63% (could someone confirm, I only have my phone with me at the moment). This is, in no way, certain.
Verelor 09-04-05, 04:21 PM	These munchkin builders give ABSOLUTELY NO credit to havigna sane and decent DM. Any half-intelligent DM would obviously put a limit on how many "free" actions can be realistically administered in that round.
Egres 09-04-05, 04:54 PM	They do try to write the rules as clearly as possible. Right. They try.
Zherog 09-05-05, 12:46 AM	These munchkin builders give ABSOLUTELY NO credit to havigna sane and decent DM. Any half-intelligent DM would obviously put a limit on how many "free" actions can be realistically administered in that round. you, my friend, have missed the entire point of the thread. :)