An alignment chart the way it should be [Archive] - Wizards Community

An alignment chart the way it should be [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JimProfit
03-02-08, 07:01 PM http://zero2180.net/assets/images/blog/alignment3.gif
If you think about it long enough, you'll know where the alignments stand, without having to nesscarly meation them. This isn't to say you're restricted to acting a ceartain way, but to give you a general gist of how a character of that alignment would be in the story.

For example in my posse, I'm lawful neutral. (fickle ally) I have my own views, my own ambitions, and everyone else be damned! However, I'm not a backstabber, but if someone got between me and my vision, regardless of who they are they would pay.

My friends are generaly neutral good (sidekicks). They're not malvolent, they can be a bit irritating and mean sometimes, but in a more comedic, expected fashion.

However, I admittedly lean more evil then good, it's very possible I could transition into lawful evil (if someone very charismatic or clever learns how to control my actions) or even chaotic evil. (given the oppurtunity)

Bias to say, my gf is exemplar, (lawful good) she's honost, she's nice, disciplined, tells the truth, and wants to do the right-thing. I could be bias what with her being my gf, but sense I'm moraly apathetic unless it involves my morals, I'd have no qualms about judging her. (Like I do my jerk friends)

Which proves too, that evil and good do not nesscarly have to be enemies, though I lean evil, my friends are good, this is what probably keeps me from trascending into evil alignment.

There is alot of philosophical and interesting aspects to the nine alignments that I think players don't stop to think about. Evidently it's probably more thinking then you want for a game. Maybe the alignment system would be better suited for a self-help guide then a rule for Dungeons&Dragons.
Seeker95
03-02-08, 07:49 PM Let us know how this goes if you have a chance to run with it in your game.
Naderion
03-03-08, 07:04 AM I think I have to ask: Is this a joke?
Red_Wizard
03-03-08, 01:36 PM I agree. Those are interpretations, and poor ones at that, of the alignments.

If it works for you great, but it'd never fly in a group I was DMing, or playing in for that matter.

Also, your suggested actions bespeak LE rather than LN, though granted it is a very small amount of info I am basing this on here.

-RW
Captain_Madrick
03-03-08, 05:08 PM I personally wouldn't play with that chart. I can appreciate the time you put into thinking it through, but I don't think taking an alignment system, and making it more focused is a good idea for D&D. This is too limiting and specific for characters. I personally find that every single alignment can be played in a hundred different ways, and using this chart would reduce that possibility.
RadicalTaoist
03-03-08, 05:13 PM That's the most cynical take on alignment I've ever seen.

I like it.
Otto the Bugbear
03-03-08, 06:05 PM The True Alignments

Honorable (a.k.a. Lawful Stupid) - This effectively covers both LN and LG. An honorable person seeks to be obedient to legitimate authority, never lie, behave in an entirely predictable fashion, and always keep their promises. Even if it screws over themselves, their families, their friends, their dog, and 90% of the kingdom's population in the process. In addition, they generally try to bring about the greatest good for the largest number of people. These two things are often incompatible. An honorable person often becomes such a conflicted mess that it's no wonder that societies which place a large emphasis on honor also have high rates of ritual suicide.

Altruistic (a.k.a. Stupid Good) - This effectively covers NG and CG. An altruist is more like, "Screw the greater good, let's give everyone a fair shake!" Which is impossible because other alignments exist, but whatever. They tend to go around helping random strangers because it's the "right thing to do", even though some of those strangers might be evil and they unwittingly gave them a shot at conquering and/or destroying the world. Some even go as far as helping random strangers who don't even exist yet, such as by disrupting logging operations so that future generations might have a chance to see a forest. Even if they try to avoid conflicts, most successful altruistic people end up jailed or assassinated sooner or later.

Anarchist (a.k.a. Chaotic Stupid) - There's no real difference between CN and CE from most players' perspectives. Anarchists do stuff because they felt like it. Honestly, if someone tried to kill them, do you think a Chaotic Anything is going to feel like showing mercy? Or if they saw someone who has better stuff, do you think they're going to feel like doing anything other than taking it? Or if someone ticked them off, anything other than hurting them? The only real difference is that CE is slightly more violent and destructive, and Heroes tend to be violent and destructive anyway.

Diabolic (a.k.a. Stupid Evil) - This effectively covers NE and LE. While Anarchists do stuff because they felt like it, Diabolics do stuff because it's wrong. And wrong is fun. Because they're immature brats. It's like, "Mom, Jimmy's being evil again!" "Jimmy, stop flaying your sister alive or I'll turn this car around right now!" While Diabolics usually respect (or at least fear) legitimate authority, you just know that they can't help themselves and will start pulling more stupid crap as soon as they can get away with it again...

Pragmatist (a.k.a. Smart) - This effectively covers 99% of everyone who has ever existed. Most people are partly all of the above alignments at different times, depending on the needs of the moment. For example, take your friendly mob boss. He's Diabolic because he breaks people's kneecaps for not buying protection that they can't afford or don't particularly need. He's Honorable because if he wasn't, he wouldn't be very effective at controlling his underlings and victims. He's Anarchist because he disrespects legitimate authority. He's Altruist because he gives back to the community. Granted, it's rather on the selfish side because he's looking for respect from those who don't know his true line of work, but it's not like altruism isn't selfish anyway - for example, if helping others is its own reward, then aren't people doing it because they want a reward? So you see, even the mob boss is a normal person doesn't have an unrealistic alignment like Heroes and Monsters do.
JulesCARV
03-03-08, 07:03 PM I'm not quite sure how this interacts with spells and such. For instance, currently, "detect chaos" detect chaotic good, chaotic neutral, and chaotic evil auras. If you transliterated that to your system with just "a spell that detects the boxes on the right," you'd end up with a spell that detected protagonists, sacrifices, and tyrants. I'm really not sure what those have to do with each other.

Of course, you could rewrite things to be better fitting to this new alignment system -- for instance, you might have a general detection spell that detects everyone, and tells you whether they're a protagonist, pawn, untrustworthy, or whatever.

Overall, I guess I'd like to know a bit more about how this works in a concrete sense.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JimProfit 03-02-08, 07:01 PM	http://zero2180.net/assets/images/blog/alignment3.gif If you think about it long enough, you'll know where the alignments stand, without having to nesscarly meation them. This isn't to say you're restricted to acting a ceartain way, but to give you a general gist of how a character of that alignment would be in the story. For example in my posse, I'm lawful neutral. (fickle ally) I have my own views, my own ambitions, and everyone else be damned! However, I'm not a backstabber, but if someone got between me and my vision, regardless of who they are they would pay. My friends are generaly neutral good (sidekicks). They're not malvolent, they can be a bit irritating and mean sometimes, but in a more comedic, expected fashion. However, I admittedly lean more evil then good, it's very possible I could transition into lawful evil (if someone very charismatic or clever learns how to control my actions) or even chaotic evil. (given the oppurtunity) Bias to say, my gf is exemplar, (lawful good) she's honost, she's nice, disciplined, tells the truth, and wants to do the right-thing. I could be bias what with her being my gf, but sense I'm moraly apathetic unless it involves my morals, I'd have no qualms about judging her. (Like I do my jerk friends) Which proves too, that evil and good do not nesscarly have to be enemies, though I lean evil, my friends are good, this is what probably keeps me from trascending into evil alignment. There is alot of philosophical and interesting aspects to the nine alignments that I think players don't stop to think about. Evidently it's probably more thinking then you want for a game. Maybe the alignment system would be better suited for a self-help guide then a rule for Dungeons&Dragons.
Seeker95 03-02-08, 07:49 PM	Let us know how this goes if you have a chance to run with it in your game.
Naderion 03-03-08, 07:04 AM	I think I have to ask: Is this a joke?
Red_Wizard 03-03-08, 01:36 PM	I agree. Those are interpretations, and poor ones at that, of the alignments. If it works for you great, but it'd never fly in a group I was DMing, or playing in for that matter. Also, your suggested actions bespeak LE rather than LN, though granted it is a very small amount of info I am basing this on here. -RW
Captain_Madrick 03-03-08, 05:08 PM	I personally wouldn't play with that chart. I can appreciate the time you put into thinking it through, but I don't think taking an alignment system, and making it more focused is a good idea for D&D. This is too limiting and specific for characters. I personally find that every single alignment can be played in a hundred different ways, and using this chart would reduce that possibility.
RadicalTaoist 03-03-08, 05:13 PM	That's the most cynical take on alignment I've ever seen. I like it.
Otto the Bugbear 03-03-08, 06:05 PM	The True Alignments Honorable (a.k.a. Lawful Stupid) - This effectively covers both LN and LG. An honorable person seeks to be obedient to legitimate authority, never lie, behave in an entirely predictable fashion, and always keep their promises. Even if it screws over themselves, their families, their friends, their dog, and 90% of the kingdom's population in the process. In addition, they generally try to bring about the greatest good for the largest number of people. These two things are often incompatible. An honorable person often becomes such a conflicted mess that it's no wonder that societies which place a large emphasis on honor also have high rates of ritual suicide. Altruistic (a.k.a. Stupid Good) - This effectively covers NG and CG. An altruist is more like, "Screw the greater good, let's give everyone a fair shake!" Which is impossible because other alignments exist, but whatever. They tend to go around helping random strangers because it's the "right thing to do", even though some of those strangers might be evil and they unwittingly gave them a shot at conquering and/or destroying the world. Some even go as far as helping random strangers who don't even exist yet, such as by disrupting logging operations so that future generations might have a chance to see a forest. Even if they try to avoid conflicts, most successful altruistic people end up jailed or assassinated sooner or later. Anarchist (a.k.a. Chaotic Stupid) - There's no real difference between CN and CE from most players' perspectives. Anarchists do stuff because they felt like it. Honestly, if someone tried to kill them, do you think a Chaotic Anything is going to feel like showing mercy? Or if they saw someone who has better stuff, do you think they're going to feel like doing anything other than taking it? Or if someone ticked them off, anything other than hurting them? The only real difference is that CE is slightly more violent and destructive, and Heroes tend to be violent and destructive anyway. Diabolic (a.k.a. Stupid Evil) - This effectively covers NE and LE. While Anarchists do stuff because they felt like it, Diabolics do stuff because it's wrong. And wrong is fun. Because they're immature brats. It's like, "Mom, Jimmy's being evil again!" "Jimmy, stop flaying your sister alive or I'll turn this car around right now!" While Diabolics usually respect (or at least fear) legitimate authority, you just know that they can't help themselves and will start pulling more stupid crap as soon as they can get away with it again... Pragmatist (a.k.a. Smart) - This effectively covers 99% of everyone who has ever existed. Most people are partly all of the above alignments at different times, depending on the needs of the moment. For example, take your friendly mob boss. He's Diabolic because he breaks people's kneecaps for not buying protection that they can't afford or don't particularly need. He's Honorable because if he wasn't, he wouldn't be very effective at controlling his underlings and victims. He's Anarchist because he disrespects legitimate authority. He's Altruist because he gives back to the community. Granted, it's rather on the selfish side because he's looking for respect from those who don't know his true line of work, but it's not like altruism isn't selfish anyway - for example, if helping others is its own reward, then aren't people doing it because they want a reward? So you see, even the mob boss is a normal person doesn't have an unrealistic alignment like Heroes and Monsters do.
JulesCARV 03-03-08, 07:03 PM	I'm not quite sure how this interacts with spells and such. For instance, currently, "detect chaos" detect chaotic good, chaotic neutral, and chaotic evil auras. If you transliterated that to your system with just "a spell that detects the boxes on the right," you'd end up with a spell that detected protagonists, sacrifices, and tyrants. I'm really not sure what those have to do with each other. Of course, you could rewrite things to be better fitting to this new alignment system -- for instance, you might have a general detection spell that detects everyone, and tells you whether they're a protagonist, pawn, untrustworthy, or whatever. Overall, I guess I'd like to know a bit more about how this works in a concrete sense.