An Alternate Point Buy Method [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Alternate Point Buy Method [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darion Fenix
01-03-05, 12:14 AM I love point buy. I think it's a great system and an all around better way to create a party of characters than rolling dice. But, it's flawed.

The DMG tells us that a 25 point buy character is the same as one made with the 4d6 method. Of course most experienced players know that's not the case and that 28 points are needed; and anyone who can do a little advanced math knows that the average result of 4d6, drop one is 12.66, (or a score array of 13, 13, 13, 13, 12, 12) and that's the exact same average you could get with a 28 point buy.

Now it seems even, but it's not. The 28 point buy character is only as powerful as a completely average 4d6 character, no more, no less. Not only that but when you begin to purchase 16s and 18s your score average drops even more! (a score array of 18, 16, 10, 8, 8, 8 drops your average all the way down to 11.3)

So a 28 point buy character can never be as good as a good 4d6 character. What's the problem with point buy then? Should we use 32 point characters instead? No, then the average is messed up. Should we decrease the cost of scores above 14? No, the curve was done beautifully as the total cost of each score was weighted against the probability of it being rolled with 4d6.

The problem is that when you roll 4d6 you have the same chance of rolling an 18 as you do of rolling a 6, that's a bell curve; point buy doesn't have a bell curve! High scores cost you an appropriate amount...but you don't receive proper compensation for low scores!

Okay, so here's the fix. Forget everything you know about point buy. My system works sort of backwards to bare with me. Each score has a Cost which you add or subtract from your total. Once you are done your total must add up to 2.

18 : +12
17 : +9
16 : +6
15 : +4
14 : +2
13 : +1
12 : -1
11 : -2
10 : -4
9 : -6
8 : -9

Say you made a character that was 13, 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, that's (+1+1+1+1-1-1=2) So you've made a legal character. 17, 14, 14, 12, 12, 8 (+9+2+2-1-1-9=2). See how it works? High scores are still costly, but taking low scores frees up more points so your overall average doesn't drop when you buy high scores.

But, what about an 18, 18, 11, 11, 8, 8 character? Outrageous scores that you'd never allow in your campaign? Check the math (18+18+11+11+8+8)/6=12.33, statistically worse than an average 4d6 character.

The game even assumes your characters were made with the 4d6 method since that's the standard in the PHB, encounters are geared towards characters with good scores. 28 point characters tend to be a shy too weak in my opinion, and it's impossible to get a 17 or 18 without sacrificing everything else (good luck playing a paladin with point buy!). I like my new system, but I thought I'd run is past the board and see if anyone can poke some holes in it.

Happy poking!

P.S. - For more powerful characters change the target number from 2 to 6, or -2 for less powerful characters. Commoners are actually created with -18!
Stuntman
01-03-05, 07:55 AM When comparing point buy systems to dice rolling system, there is one thing that is hard to quantify. That thing is the fact that point buys are deterministic and dice rolling is not. The same applies to your point buy system. If you strictly compare the standard point buy (25 points) with the 4d6 drop lowest method, the average result from dice rolling is higher. However, the advantage of point buy is that it is more likely that you can get stats you can work with than with dice rolling.

This predictibility is worth having a slightly lower average set of abilities than with dice rolling. If you really want two high abilities (15 or higher), you can always get it with the point buy method. You will then have more lowerer scores to compensate, but you can guarantee you will get the high ones. With dice rolling, you always have the chance of not rolling two high scores even though on average, your scores will be higher. Also, with dice rolling, there is always the possiblity that you will roll some very low scores. Perhaps you have one or two 5's or 6's. You may not even get any scores above 14.

Whether point buy or dice rolling is better depends a lot on personal preference. Point buy is absolutely predictible. Dice rolling is random and although it will result in better scores on average, there is a chance that you will get worse scores than the point buy method.

As for your point buy method, it appears that you are just altering the value of the scores. You allow lower scores to have a more negative value to compensate for very high scores. I just question whether the large negative values are really justified in the way you rate your scores. An 8 is worth -9 and a 17 is worth +9. I really think that a 17 in my primary stat will always be worth an 8 in a dump stat. I realise that you want 17's and 18's to be more common in stat generation. If that is what you want, then you have accomplished that.

Also, it appears that the point values you gave to high scores are roughly equal to the negative point values of low scores that you would have roughly equal chance of rolling on a 4d6 method. For instance the chances of rolling a 16 is 7.3% and the chances of rolling a 9 is 7.0% which is about the same. You have assigned +6 points for a 16 and -6 points to a 9. The chance of rolling a 17 is 4.2% which has a value of +9 and the chance of an 8 is 4.8% for -9. I'm not sure if this is by design.

In general, a 17 or 18 is rare using the standard 4d6 rolling method. There is only a 32% chance that you will roll a set of scores with at least one 17 or higher. There is only a 9% chance that your set of scores will have one 18. With your point buy method, the chances are likely going to be higher than that. If that is what you want, that is what you will get.
Board_Rider
01-03-05, 06:36 PM I am not going to touch the whole statistical differences and possible attribute arrays that you two have created. I got a C in statistics and, upon completion, vowed to never look back.
My opinion on the matter is that while it can be said that a "point buy" character could possibly make a more "personal" PC and is better suited for a typical campaign as is written, it is flawed. Too many times Players will just keep recreating the same stats. True, the dice rolling method can be either boon or bust, but this style of the creation process,to me anyways, is better suited to the new D&D game.
Of course this argument has been rehashed numerous times. Some look at the law of averages and go point buy. Some like randomness, and a bit of luck, to create characters.
Jack Greylock
01-03-05, 07:04 PM You know I always hear the everyone ends up with the same boring stats argument, about the point buy system, but having been involved in 4 diffrent campaigns that have used it, I honestly can say that it is not the case.

Personaly I like the point buy system over dice rolling for 3 reasons
1) everyone's character is balanced too each other
2) players get to make the character they want (never more do you end up with a wizard with a 8 Int)
3) players can show up at the game with their characters ready to go and I don't have to worry about that one guy who used to always manage to roll at least three 18's at home ("I swear to god, dude I just got lucky on the rolls.")

If you aren't happy with how low the stats often end up being then allow them 32 points (high powered) instead.

I ran the City of the Spider Queen module (very tough) and let everyone have 32 points to make their characters.

Started a Eberon campaign and so brought it back to the standard amount of points, boy did they ***** at first, but the characters were much more unique and they ended up having to work much closer together.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darion Fenix 01-03-05, 12:14 AM	I love point buy. I think it's a great system and an all around better way to create a party of characters than rolling dice. But, it's flawed. The DMG tells us that a 25 point buy character is the same as one made with the 4d6 method. Of course most experienced players know that's not the case and that 28 points are needed; and anyone who can do a little advanced math knows that the average result of 4d6, drop one is 12.66, (or a score array of 13, 13, 13, 13, 12, 12) and that's the exact same average you could get with a 28 point buy. Now it seems even, but it's not. The 28 point buy character is only as powerful as a completely average 4d6 character, no more, no less. Not only that but when you begin to purchase 16s and 18s your score average drops even more! (a score array of 18, 16, 10, 8, 8, 8 drops your average all the way down to 11.3) So a 28 point buy character can never be as good as a good 4d6 character. What's the problem with point buy then? Should we use 32 point characters instead? No, then the average is messed up. Should we decrease the cost of scores above 14? No, the curve was done beautifully as the total cost of each score was weighted against the probability of it being rolled with 4d6. The problem is that when you roll 4d6 you have the same chance of rolling an 18 as you do of rolling a 6, that's a bell curve; point buy doesn't have a bell curve! High scores cost you an appropriate amount...but you don't receive proper compensation for low scores! Okay, so here's the fix. Forget everything you know about point buy. My system works sort of backwards to bare with me. Each score has a Cost which you add or subtract from your total. Once you are done your total must add up to 2. 18 : +12 17 : +9 16 : +6 15 : +4 14 : +2 13 : +1 12 : -1 11 : -2 10 : -4 9 : -6 8 : -9 Say you made a character that was 13, 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, that's (+1+1+1+1-1-1=2) So you've made a legal character. 17, 14, 14, 12, 12, 8 (+9+2+2-1-1-9=2). See how it works? High scores are still costly, but taking low scores frees up more points so your overall average doesn't drop when you buy high scores. But, what about an 18, 18, 11, 11, 8, 8 character? Outrageous scores that you'd never allow in your campaign? Check the math (18+18+11+11+8+8)/6=12.33, statistically worse than an average 4d6 character. The game even assumes your characters were made with the 4d6 method since that's the standard in the PHB, encounters are geared towards characters with good scores. 28 point characters tend to be a shy too weak in my opinion, and it's impossible to get a 17 or 18 without sacrificing everything else (good luck playing a paladin with point buy!). I like my new system, but I thought I'd run is past the board and see if anyone can poke some holes in it. Happy poking! P.S. - For more powerful characters change the target number from 2 to 6, or -2 for less powerful characters. Commoners are actually created with -18!
Stuntman 01-03-05, 07:55 AM	When comparing point buy systems to dice rolling system, there is one thing that is hard to quantify. That thing is the fact that point buys are deterministic and dice rolling is not. The same applies to your point buy system. If you strictly compare the standard point buy (25 points) with the 4d6 drop lowest method, the average result from dice rolling is higher. However, the advantage of point buy is that it is more likely that you can get stats you can work with than with dice rolling. This predictibility is worth having a slightly lower average set of abilities than with dice rolling. If you really want two high abilities (15 or higher), you can always get it with the point buy method. You will then have more lowerer scores to compensate, but you can guarantee you will get the high ones. With dice rolling, you always have the chance of not rolling two high scores even though on average, your scores will be higher. Also, with dice rolling, there is always the possiblity that you will roll some very low scores. Perhaps you have one or two 5's or 6's. You may not even get any scores above 14. Whether point buy or dice rolling is better depends a lot on personal preference. Point buy is absolutely predictible. Dice rolling is random and although it will result in better scores on average, there is a chance that you will get worse scores than the point buy method. As for your point buy method, it appears that you are just altering the value of the scores. You allow lower scores to have a more negative value to compensate for very high scores. I just question whether the large negative values are really justified in the way you rate your scores. An 8 is worth -9 and a 17 is worth +9. I really think that a 17 in my primary stat will always be worth an 8 in a dump stat. I realise that you want 17's and 18's to be more common in stat generation. If that is what you want, then you have accomplished that. Also, it appears that the point values you gave to high scores are roughly equal to the negative point values of low scores that you would have roughly equal chance of rolling on a 4d6 method. For instance the chances of rolling a 16 is 7.3% and the chances of rolling a 9 is 7.0% which is about the same. You have assigned +6 points for a 16 and -6 points to a 9. The chance of rolling a 17 is 4.2% which has a value of +9 and the chance of an 8 is 4.8% for -9. I'm not sure if this is by design. In general, a 17 or 18 is rare using the standard 4d6 rolling method. There is only a 32% chance that you will roll a set of scores with at least one 17 or higher. There is only a 9% chance that your set of scores will have one 18. With your point buy method, the chances are likely going to be higher than that. If that is what you want, that is what you will get.
Board_Rider 01-03-05, 06:36 PM	I am not going to touch the whole statistical differences and possible attribute arrays that you two have created. I got a C in statistics and, upon completion, vowed to never look back. My opinion on the matter is that while it can be said that a "point buy" character could possibly make a more "personal" PC and is better suited for a typical campaign as is written, it is flawed. Too many times Players will just keep recreating the same stats. True, the dice rolling method can be either boon or bust, but this style of the creation process,to me anyways, is better suited to the new D&D game. Of course this argument has been rehashed numerous times. Some look at the law of averages and go point buy. Some like randomness, and a bit of luck, to create characters.
Jack Greylock 01-03-05, 07:04 PM	You know I always hear the everyone ends up with the same boring stats argument, about the point buy system, but having been involved in 4 diffrent campaigns that have used it, I honestly can say that it is not the case. Personaly I like the point buy system over dice rolling for 3 reasons 1) everyone's character is balanced too each other 2) players get to make the character they want (never more do you end up with a wizard with a 8 Int) 3) players can show up at the game with their characters ready to go and I don't have to worry about that one guy who used to always manage to roll at least three 18's at home ("I swear to god, dude I just got lucky on the rolls.") If you aren't happy with how low the stats often end up being then allow them 32 points (high powered) instead. I ran the City of the Spider Queen module (very tough) and let everyone have 32 points to make their characters. Started a Eberon campaign and so brought it back to the standard amount of points, boy did they ***** at first, but the characters were much more unique and they ended up having to work much closer together.