Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dougan Axehammer 02-08-07, 03:23 AM	Joe Commoner lives in a small village, and has a small farm out by the woods. He built the main house himself, with help from his father as a youth when he was old enough to move out on his own. They used wood harvested from the nearby forest, and did the work themselves, meaning the house was essentially free. Joe learned how to farm from his father, and has been a farmer for as long as he can remember. Mechanically, Joe is in his mid 30's, and is a 2nd level commoner. He's not as fit as he was in his younger days, but he's a little wiser. We will still assume that he has a +0 modifier to all of his stats though....As a D&D character, Joe has maxxed out his ranks in Profession (Farmer), and has also taken Skill Focus (Farming), for a total of +8 to his skill checks. He also has 3 ranks in Craft (Woodworking), and 2 ranks in Knowledge (Local). I have been reading D&D Commoners Make Plenty of Money (http://http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=719384) (a great thread and a great read) and, as posters were discussing taxation and the real world value of gold, I began thinking "How did Joe build the farm so quickly and where did he get the resources?". Hoping to support Edymnion's arguement (that being the brokenness of D&D economics), I did some research only to find a complication to the debate. Not wanting to derail his very accurate (since it is still equal to all classes) and well done thread, I'm posting my findings here. According to the RAW (DMG pg. 101), a simple house costs 1000gp to purchase. The craft skill tells us to convert the price to silver and pay one-third of the purchase price, in this case 3334sp (1,000gp=10,000sp;10,000/3=3333.33sp; round up.) Every week, if the result of the skill check succeeds against the DC, we multiply the result by the DC to determine how much progress we've made for that week. Using Edymnion's character, Joe Commoner will achieve an average check of 13. Assuming that a simple house is a typical item (I did), that would result in 130sp of progress toward the cost of building the house (which is somewhat generous since Joe probably built the house when he was still 1st level and had fewer ranks.) However, Joe has no ranks in profession, meaning that he will only earn 1sp worth of materials for his house; in our measurement of time, that would take 64 years to finish. This could be fixed of course. In fact, we could give Joe enough ranks to do the job entirely on his own. But that's somewhat irrelevant. Even if he (or his father) had maximum ranks in profession-woodcutter and craft-carpentry and Skill Focus in both, the average check would be 17 each. For profession that amounts to 8.5gp or 85sp worth of raw materials per week. For craft that amounts to 170sp of progress toward the house. How is it that you can earn half of the raw materials you would need for one week's progress toward the building of a house? It seems to me that the economy in D&D is missing something.
Always-Late 02-08-07, 03:28 AM	That's because the idea that a cost of 100 gp x 10 for a house is perposterous.
KendallDM 02-08-07, 04:13 AM	Actually, in my humble opinion, the problem with the economy system has to do with the way in which the craft and profession skills function. They are completely ass backwards, and it appears to me at least, that WotC decided on the progress in silver pieces arbitrarily. Frankly, progress in these skills should occur much faster. Add to this that in the Craft skill, its easier, and takes less time, to craft more difficult items than to craft simple items. I know what the general thinking of the designers was when they came up with this... essentially since simple items cost so much less than difficult to make items, that it all equals out in the end. No, not really. It really starts to unravel in high-cost items. Let's take a simple one room house for example. Costs 10000 sp (only 3334 sp in raw materials cost), and requires a woodworking DC of 10 (typical house of a commoner). Let's assume a basic farmer, with 14 Int (+2) and 3 levels of commoner (6 ranks in woodworking). That's +8, for an average roll of 18. Every week he makes 180 sp towards the progress of his house. It will take him 56 weeks to complete the task. Now let's also assume he sells his farm goods with his profession (farmer) of 6 ranks and a wisdom of 10 (+0), for an average roll of 16. The farmer makes 80 sp per week, so that multiplies the 56 weeks by 2.25 (the number of weeks it takes for him get to 180 sp), so that comes to 126 weeks, or over 2 years to build his house. Not that bad. But wait, lets see what an expert with the same Int and craft armorsmithing does with a suit of full plate. Costs 15000 sp, requires armorsmithing DC of 18, skill check still +8 for an average roll of 18. Every week he makes 324 sp towards the progress of the full plate. A more complex item. It will take him 46 weeks to finish the full plate. But this can be justified. We need to make a better picture of things. Say a 2 commoners with +8 woodworking each make a simple one room house. Let's say one commoner just wants 4 walls, a roof, a door, and a window for 1000 gp. Let's say the second commoner wants that, and a porch, and 2 more windows, and a back door, and a bark shingle roof. Its more complex, requiring a higher DC of 15 for 1100 gp. Let's assume both have unlimited resources. The first commoner, making the simplest of houses makes the 180 sp per week progress for a total of 56 weeks. The second commoner with a higher quality house, at higher cost, and more difficult circumstances makes 270 sp per week progress for a total of 40 weeks. Huh? The whole Profession and Craft system really needs a major rewrite IMHO.
runestar 02-08-07, 04:27 AM	And this is the reason why the game designers are spinning out splatbook after splatbook, rather than overseeing US monetary policies...;) That is not necessarily a bad thing when you think about it...:P
Seeker95 02-08-07, 09:30 AM	Couple of comments. First, the economics are designed with the characters of the people playing the game in mind. Not commoners. As such, prices are arbitrary and tailored to an assumedly rich clientèle. Second, a small house is definitely NOT a "simple item". Building a house takes lots of skill. Lots. Either you have to be able to do everything yourself (a very skilled person) or you have to have the ability to manage lots of other people who possess the individual skills (an expensive endeavor). Third, this commoner (let's use Kendall's farmer) doesn't have the time to build the house. He's farming! And if he's not farming, he doesn't have the money for the raw materials. I wouldn't worry about how a commoner builds his house. I would be more concerned with how the players of the adventurers are going to try to cut corners at every step in order to minimize cost and maximize the magical defenses they find in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. :D
angryman 02-08-07, 10:29 AM	Don't think about it. I don't. PCs are basically treated like western tourists in 3rd world countries: they're charged about 2-3 times more than the average person because they can afford it. So a can of beer in Viet Nam will cost an American about $1, for a local it's about 50c.
Abbacabba 02-08-07, 11:04 AM	First, The economic details of a game would be vastly different from campaign to campaign. Secondly, things like building a home, if your world is like many around then commoners would almost have to be in a land protected by someone(King, Lord, Barron) so the land he builds his home on would never be his. That right there should allow you to say the cost of the home is perhaps on 1/10 the listed price. If the economy is too broken in someones eyes theres a few options. 1) Leave it be.. It works ok rules wise for PC's 2) Change it to work better for the PC's *or* NPC's, this would most likely make many more odd situations in a game world. 3) Try and create a viable economy for your game world. I've tried to use #3... I've gained alot of insight from this thread I started awhile back. boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=743610 It starts to devolve after ~5 pages but its a good read for DM's. This was my attempt to see how a city might grow in a D&D world. Once you inject just some simple low(er) level magic and one or two items( Lyre of Building).. The "Cost" to build a town becomes a fraction of the listed costs. Wall of XXXX Fabricate Plant Growth Lyre of Building These 4 simple things would let most land owners(lords, kings, etc...) throw up massive amounts of cheap living quarters for their commoners/workers. In my opinion most towns will either have access to some sort of magic that helps cut costs, OR they will die out. In my game world(s) i've all but eliminated the little poor towns out in the middle of nowhere, because they simply have zero chance of making it. (just toss one random encounter at a small town with nothing but low level NPCs with no magic.. 2-3 trolls or something similar. They would be destroyed.) Good luck trying to find a Grand Unified Theory for Viable D&D Economies. So.. I'll wrap up this way: Do what ever you and your players enjoy.
boozerker 02-08-07, 12:48 PM	Joe Commoner didn't build the house himself. His dad helped, and likely other village friends. They used the Aid Another for skill checks and presto! It's accomplished because everyone's known one another their entire lives and most "trade" is probably done in the form of "helping hands" in such once-in-a-lifetime projects. Otherwise, Joe Commoner could only pobably build a tiny shack, which is all he really needs with no family to support.
swallowyersoul 02-08-07, 01:14 PM	the game isn't designed around commoners, nor around reality. the game is designed to create a fun consensual illusion. don't start expecting things to make sense in a world with beholders.
StruckingFuggle 02-08-07, 01:25 PM	the game isn't designed around commoners, nor around reality. the game is designed to create a fun consensual illusion. don't start expecting things to make sense in a world with beholders. So we can't expect to fall when we jump off a cliff, because there's beholders?
Pandaemoni 02-08-07, 01:35 PM	If Joe Commoner is leaving in a feudal society (or, slightly more generically, under any manoral system), he probably doesn't "own" his house or land at all. (Serfs, in fact, were legally prohibited from owning any property....even the clothes on their back that they made themselves were the property of their suzerain.) He probably occupies space through a lease (if the commoner is a free man) or "vassalage" (if the commoner is not free, i.e., a serf). A peasant's house was not anything akin to the houses we think of today. They were small, single room huts, without windows or chimneys (which made them smoky fire hazards, as if peasant's life wasn't bad enough), and any livestock the peasant had lived in one end of it and the family in the other. Peasant homes (called "cruck houses") were basic wood frames (shown here (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/users/deetz/images/jfdcruck.gif)), the walls of which would them be filled in or coated with a mix of mud, twigs, hay and manure (called "wattle and daub"). I don't think it took a great deal of skill to put them together, apart from the milling of the wood and the building of the wood frame. Edit: For 1000 gold, I'd think you could do better than a darkened shack smeared with poo. I'd suggest that 1000 gold gets you something of stone or log construction, with a chimney and fireplace, possibly with multiple rooms...something in which a PC might agree to live.
Seeker95 02-08-07, 01:49 PM	So we can't expect to fall when we jump off a cliff, because there's beholders?Thursday. Ask a stupid question... etc.
Kresalak 02-08-07, 01:53 PM	That wasn't a stupid question. That was a valid question exposing the absurdity of the statement "D&D has magic so nothing needs to make sense."
swallowyersoul 02-08-07, 01:54 PM	So we can't expect to fall when we jump off a cliff, because there's beholders? well, the beholder could use telekinisis..... it's basic game design, dude. realism isn't important. consistency is. as long as i can predict whether or not i fall when i jump off a cliff, all is cool. my point is if you're going to start seriously worrying about the economy from the pov of off-screen peons, you're spending way too much personal energy looking for reasons to be unhappy. if you really want to get uptight about things that don't make sense, look at the ecology: what do all these CR 17 ravening beasts eat? two great wyrms and a tarrasque would empty the amazon in a matter of weeks. we shouldn't look to closely at the off-screen realism of d&d. game wasn't designed to make sense at that level and it would have been foolish of wizards to try.
Seeker95 02-08-07, 03:49 PM	That wasn't a stupid question. That was a valid question exposing the absurdity of the statement "D&D has magic so nothing needs to make sense."If someone besides you had actually said "D&D has magic so nothing needs to make sense." you might have a point. Putting quotes around something doesn't make it a quote, but you have implied as much. StruckingFuggle (I still don't know how the Mods can allow that screen name) made an absurd statement in reply to a very valid comment. And the comment he quoted read absolutely NOTHING like what you quoted.
Kresalak 02-08-07, 04:18 PM	Alright, "D&D has Beholders, so you can't expect things to make sense." Wait, that was also paraphrasing, so I suppose it doesn't matter.
BlackFiend 02-08-07, 04:22 PM	Couple of comments. First, the economics are designed with the characters of the people playing the game in mind. Not commoners. As such, prices are arbitrary and tailored to an assumedly rich clientèle. Second, a small house is definitely NOT a "simple item". Building a house takes lots of skill. Lots. Either you have to be able to do everything yourself (a very skilled person) or you have to have the ability to manage lots of other people who possess the individual skills (an expensive endeavor). I wouldn't worry about how a commoner builds his house. I would be more concerned with how the players of the adventurers are going to try to cut corners at every step in order to minimize cost and maximize the magical defenses they find in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. :D I agree. Moreover, commoners worked together to build resources. It was common for an entire community to come together to build each home. They shared resources, energy, labor, and time to get tasks done. It was not Joe Commoner building a home, it was the entire community including his aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers, etc, helping to build the new home.
Arrowhen 02-08-07, 04:42 PM	Don't expect things very far removed from the rules for fighting beholders to make sense in a game about fighting beholders. A lot of things seem "unrealistic" in D&D because people expect it to do way more than it's designed to do. D&D isn't a history simulator or an economic simulator or even a fantasy world simulator. It's a "killing monsters underground for gold and power" simulator, and a damned good one at that. The further away you get from killing monsters underground, the less suitable D&D becomes for modeling that situation. Just like a flathead screwdriver makes a fairly good Phillips screwdriver, an OK chisel, a lousy hammer, and a downright horrible microwave oven. Now, just killing monsters underground gets boring after a while. You need places to spend all that gold on better tools for killing bigger monsters, commoners to save from the monsters, etc. So D&D has an "economy" of sorts, in the form of lists of stuff to buy. It's got NPC classes in case you decide to kill those commoners instead of saving them. But since the game isn't really about economics and commoners, those rules don't really simulate them very well. All they really do is cover the occasions when economics and commoners interact mechanically with the adventurers that the game really is about. So yes, commoners buying houses or leveling up after a season of bad crops or whatever don't really make much sense by the rules. But that's because the rules do not, nor are they supposed to, apply to them. Things outside of the immediate realm of killing monsters underground are handled by an entirely different mechanic: DM fiat. Commoners don't build houses according to the profession and crafting rules, they live in houses that the DM decides they have. First level commoners don't become second level commoners because they overcome 13.33 encounters, they become second level commoners because the DM writes "Com2" after their name in his notes. And that's all the "realism" required for things that are really nothing more than a backdrop for killing monsters underground.
lint trap 02-08-07, 05:00 PM	I always get a tingle when the realism argument crops up. But the OP was making a point about the D&D having a flawed economy. He's right, but he shouldn't really blame WotC for it. That's like getting ****** at your microwave for not having a "deep fry" button. D&D isn't a valid economic simulator. This is because D&D wasn't designed to be an economic simulator. (In fact, most economic simulators aren't valid economic simulators, but that's a different subject). Money in D&D works pretty well for what it is designed to do, i.e. reward players and let them get shiny, powerful toys. The game wasn't built around the concept of players using their earth-shattering powers to Fabricate plate mail and cast Wall of Salt until you're a fat, well-fed merchant lord. You can do these things within the rules, of course, but you aren't really playing D&D anymore; you're playing d20 Monopoly. Which would sell pretty well, I bet. If D&D came out with some medieval stockbroker RPG (Merchants and Magnates), I'd look into it. But that's not this game. The d20 system is remarkably flexible; it can include modern firearms and laser guns without breaking a sweat. But it's not all-encompasing, and nothing shows that more than trying to extrapolate a valid economic system from the set-prop economy of D&D.
StruckingFuggle 02-08-07, 05:08 PM	StruckingFuggle (I still don't know how the Mods can allow that screen name) made an absurd statement in reply to a very valid comment. And the comment he quoted read absolutely NOTHING like what you quoted. I dunno, but they do allow it, so oh well. :) And two things. One: absurdity v. validity and the extents of both, in this discussion, aren't absolutes, but points of view. And second: Odd that it reads nothing like that, because he got what I was trying to say and why quite well... (okay, and three: the problem with d&d only handling "fighting beholders" and falling apart more and more the more you move away from it is that many players, in my experience, want to do more than fight beholders, and it's kind of irritating when the structure of the game design apparently can't stand up so well to grafting new things to do onto it ... ) ((hmm ... I wonder how many players or DMs would by a Heroes of Metropolii type book, on how to create a variety of different worlds with different sorts of more real economies and political struggles and the like, while still also including the opportunities to do 'traditional d&d stuff'.... *ponders* ))
swallowyersoul 02-08-07, 05:12 PM	((hmm ... I wonder how many players or DMs would by a Heroes of Metropolii type book, on how to create a variety of different worlds with different sorts of more real economies and political struggles and the like, while still also including the opportunities to do 'traditional d&d stuff'.... *ponders* )) expeditious retreat press does a number of very good books on exactly that subject. 'magical mideival _________' series. good info on geography, geology, ecology, economy, civics......basically a bunch of fair experts applied the basic conceits of d&d gaming to what they knew about the above subjects. if realism is you bag, you really can't go wrong with these. the pdfs are less than 20 bucks.
Pandaemoni 02-08-07, 05:29 PM	((hmm ... I wonder how many players or DMs would by a Heroes of Metropolii type book, on how to create a variety of different worlds with different sorts of more real economies and political struggles and the like, while still also including the opportunities to do 'traditional d&d stuff'.... *ponders* )) If they sold a program that allowed for a more dynamic and realistic economy: weather, crop failures, fluctuating wage levels, inflation, shortages and oversupplies, I'd be interested in that (assuming it were well designed).
Aberlonian 02-08-07, 05:29 PM	So we can't expect to fall when we jump off a cliff, because there's beholders? No, you can't expect to fall when you jump off a cliff because there's the fly spell. To add to the OP's point, commoners in real life usually helped each other build houses, farms etc. If you wanted to build your own house with your own hands without any help from anyone, it could very well take 60 years. Think Amish and Barn-raising parties.
Dougan Axehammer 02-08-07, 05:55 PM	Couple of comments. First, the economics are designed with the characters of the people playing the game in mind. Not commoners. As such, prices are arbitrary and tailored to an assumedly rich clientèle.Why shouldn't the economics apply to the commoner class. While they are just a NPC class, they still start off with starting gold (up to 20 gold pieces) and purchase equipment just like any standard "adventurer" (not that a character must, by ruling, be an adventurer.) And most of the equipment that the commoner would need is affordable by him. If equipment was only intended for adventurers, then the books would say so. Second, a small house is definitely NOT a "simple item". Building a house takes lots of skill. Lots. Either you have to be able to do everything yourself (a very skilled person) or you have to have the ability to manage lots of other people who possess the individual skills (an expensive endeavor).I never said that it was a "simple item"; that carries a DC 5 to the check. I set the DC for the build at 10, which is a typical item; if you think that the DC should be higher then I'd enjoy the suggestion (it was rather arbitrary of me.) And in fact, at first level the commoner could have 4 ranks in craft-carpentry and Skill Focus (craft-carpenty) for a total bonus of 7 to any die roll; that is plenty of skill to build a typical house. Third, this commoner (let's use Kendall's farmer) doesn't have the time to build the house. He's farming! And if he's not farming, he doesn't have the money for the raw materials.A farmer who strikes out on his own would to take the time to build a house; without some shelter, he would have very little to protect him at night when there is no light left in the day for him to tend to his field. There is also nothing that says that he isn't using the rest of the week to tend to his field. I think the farmer would have plenty of time to build a house. I wouldn't worry about how a commoner builds his house. I would be more concerned with how the players of the adventurers are going to try to cut corners at every step in order to minimize cost and maximize the magical defenses they find in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. :DWhich is also why this particular subject seems so useful. If your players are looking to cut costs on the construction of their latest stronghold, what better way than to build it yourself. Joe Commoner didn't build the house himself. His dad helped, and likely other village friends. They used the Aid Another for skill checks and presto! It's accomplished because everyone's known one another their entire lives and most "trade" is probably done in the form of "helping hands" in such once-in-a-lifetime projects. Otherwise, Joe Commoner could only pobably build a tiny shack, which is all he really needs with no family to support. Okay, I see... This is actually something I hadn't considered before, and could be the solution to my particular confusion. You would be correct: If there are enough professional laborers on hand to gather the materials (two or more laborers doing individual tasks), then it would of course be possible to get enough materials for at least one week's work; and of course he would only need a simple house for himself (which would set the craft DC at 5 and settle much of the logistics: doing it himself, both checks would be at 17 on average, having the profession earning 85 silver in materials per week and the craft spending 85 silver in materials per week.) I guess all that would be left to do is to determine the DC value of certain items such as a simple house. The higher the DC the more likely one would need some extra hands.
Dougan Axehammer 02-08-07, 06:27 PM	the game isn't designed around commoners, nor around reality. the game is designed to create a fun consensual illusion. don't start expecting things to make sense in a world with beholders. On the contrary, the game is most certainly designed with realism in mind. That does not mean that the game revolves around elements of the real world; they just happen to be included as the basis for the reality. In this reality the elements of fantasy and magic have been included to immerse ourselves in a world that is very alien to our own. Even in a world with beholders, there needs to be some realism to make sense. However, in a world with the legitimate presence of magic and supernatural beings (such as beholders), how would that affect an economy such as in D&D? Most likely, a single commoner would not be able to afford spellcasting services of any nature. But several commoners could acquire the resources to purchase a Plant Growth spell. That would be an incredible boon to these commoners as it would make for better, more plentiful crops. That would certainly shape the economy in a very different direction than we've been applying.
Always-Late 02-08-07, 07:17 PM	Dude, you don't need a house. You can seriously live in a big wooden box, and all your tools can fit it too. It's just nicer to have a house.
Darth Syntax 02-08-07, 07:19 PM	I think one of the primary problems with the D&D economy (and it has been alluded to) is the fact that magic is nonsensically expensive. It's fairly likely that in a settlement of any real size there are going to be a handful of casters (these might be adepts and magewrights, but they are still casters). Moreover, these casters make their way in the world by the ability to provide magical services. Now, here is the problem: Who in the Nine Hells is paying these people for their services? Their fellows in the village/town/city/enclave certainly can't afford their services, and most of these casters are of low level, making them relatively unattractive for the elite to hire to do much. Why hire a level 2 magewright when you can afford to get a real Wizard (level 5 let's say) to tend to all your magical need? So, we seem to have a problem. Namely that low level casters have little or no economic viability. Sure, some could be sages or priests or what have you, but such roles are more usefully filled by experts. Unless the price of low level magical services falls within the range of 'expensive but doable' for a large enough segment of the population, the economic viability of out adepts is going to be nil. Edited to Add: The current model of pricing for magical services is a bit like paying NASA engineer prices to the guy who is replacing the brakes on your car. You don't need eleventy thousand safty redundancies on your car, and you don't need your mechanic to have a PhD from Miskatonic University. You just need the damn brakes fixed.
swallowyersoul 02-08-07, 07:25 PM	On the contrary, the game is most certainly designed with realism in mind. That does not mean that the game revolves around elements of the real world; they just happen to be included as the basis for the reality. In this reality the elements of fantasy and magic have been included to immerse ourselves in a world that is very alien to our own. Even in a world with beholders, there needs to be some realism to make sense. i think we're in a semantic argument. what you're talking about is what i'd call verisimilitude, but i don't really think we disagree. what i mean is the rules aren't intended to mirror what we call reality and there are many 'realistic' things that have no place in d&d: applying real physics to magical effects, recreating the realities of personal combat for example. another good one is that the movement speeds are pretty unreasonable compared to real people; but it's a consistent, predictable rule and the 'unreality' doesn't hurt game play. verisimilitude is the consistency and logic a shared illusion must have for people to believe in it enough to have fun. that's why magic follows specific rules (rather than saying 'it has magic so anything's possible). like i said, i don't think we disagree except perhaps on how healthy it is to spend lots of time thinking about commoners. as a side note, that could be a fun npc: a low level caster who sells useful spells like plant growth or create water to commoners at below market prices. he'd still make a spiffy living and be a hero to the locals.
Pandaemoni 02-08-07, 07:59 PM	as a side note, that could be a fun npc: a low level caster who sells useful spells like plant growth or create water to commoners at below market prices. he'd still make a spiffy living and be a hero to the locals. That's another inaccurate thing about the economy...there is no price competition. NPCs all charge set prices for spellcasting services, whether you live in an are filled with spellcasters or you're the only one for 100 miles. It's collusion I tells ya! Where's Mordenkainen's Antitrust Act when you need it?
Darth Syntax 02-08-07, 08:47 PM	An excellent point. Now, if only I could figure out an elegant means of implementing economic competition, various legal codes, traditions, market pressures and the like. Any ideas?
swallowyersoul 02-08-07, 08:55 PM	i think there's a system in one of expeditious retreat's books, and there's a fair system in the player's handbook II, but overall i think dm fiat is probably the best way to go.
Edymnion 02-08-07, 08:59 PM	For the record: Just because a house sells for 1,000 gp does not mean it costs that much to make. Crafting rules say that you use a third of the market price in materials, so you're only using 300 gp worth of stuff to build that house with. The 1,000 gp would be the market price, what you sell it for after all of your work has been put into it. As has been said, it would not have been just Joe and his dad doing *ALL* of the work. Ever hear of a "barn raising"? Maybe not, especially if you're from an urban area, but not too long ago, building a barn was a big deal for your farm. When you built a barn, you would get everybody you knew to come help. You would also typically provide the food for everyone helping you do the work. In return, you were expected to come help them when they built a new barn. There is still a vestige of this in the modern expression "raise the roof" when referring to a party. Hence, you would have the entire community coming to help you build that house, which in D&D terms means a bunch of people using Aid Other. You can always speed crafting up by voluntarily increasing the DC of the check. Effectively, you hurry the work, which means its harder to keep the quality up, but you get the job done faster. If you've got 20 people helping build your house, assuming they have basic training (aka at least a rank), they would have a 50/50 chance of getting a 10 to contribute that +2 via Aid Other. With 20 people, you would average out with a +10 to your check. You have whoever has the best check bonus oversee it, everybody else uses Aid Other, and you raise the DC as high as you can and still reliably make the checks. Much of the cost in materials would be something you could get for free, if you knew where to look. In real life, just look at what people buy when building things. Wood. If you live near the woods, and have an axe, you don't need to buy lumber, you can chop down trees and make a log cabin. Stone? You could buy from a stone yard, or you could go haul it yourself from the riverbed on dry years, or cart it down from the mountain. And if we really want to get technical, a Quarterstaff costs 0 gp, while firewood is what, 1 sp per bale? The staff is free because all you have to do is go cut down an appropriate sized sappling, and you've got your quarterstaff. You cut it up into chunks, and you've got firewood you could sell. So even if you don't want to say you could get the material for free, you could still just harvest wood for quarterstaves, split them up into kindling for firewood, and then count that towards your material costs. A case can be made that building the farm would count as one of those misc skills that fall under Profession (Farmer). While you wouldn't be skilled enough to make fine furniture, you would know the basics on how to put together a farm. Like making fences, or how to buid a simple homestead. After all, you don't make the Ranger make Craft checks when he builds himself a lean to out in the woods for the night, do you?And, from reading what you have in the original post, I think you missunderstood the purpose of my article on regdar's. It wasn't that D&D economics is broken, but exactly the opposite, that they are *NOT* broken when used as written.
ravenshrike 02-08-07, 11:26 PM	The biggest evidence that the economy is screwed in D&D is the price of the long and shortbow. These things should probably be 75-100 silver at most. A crossbow was much much harder to make properly than a longbow.
Elemental_Elf 02-08-07, 11:54 PM	D&D economy is screwed up when you start to look at what the average person earns. But then again, who really plays commoners? In the end the game was designed for players, who are rich and famous. Essentially the economy of D&D is based around Hollywood movie stars rather than Joe working in his home business. ~~ That aside, I always believed that a Commoners never really build their houses. The house is handed down through successive generations. And every generation expands the house as needed. So you may start with what is, essentially, a shack big enough for a fire, and a bed roll or two, but over 3 or 4 generations, you will end up with a house that's the size of a standard 'small' D&D house.
NobodyRemembersThis 02-09-07, 12:51 AM	Hunt down a 1st edition Oriental Adventures. While 90% of the book is not helpful, 10% is. There is an entire chapter about inserting non-PC related events (floods, ambassadors, banditry, bad crops, good crops, important marriage, etc.) into the capmaign on a Yearly, Seasonally, Monthly, and Weekly basis. Then look at the SRD for food and lodging and trade goods. Done? Ok. Here is the breakdown: Commoners are poor and thus eat poorly (compared to adventurers) Food costs: 1 sp/day. Commoners have other daily upkeep, I'd wager approximately half of what poor inn lodging would be per day. So another 1 sp/day. That means Joe Farmer needs to be able to take 10 on his weekly profession check and make 14 sp/week just to survive. And this is simply a very rough estimate using existing mechanics. Which he can do at level 1; he makes 5 gp/week (500 lbs of wheat, by the way o_O ) This is good, yes? But does not account upkeep of said farm, nor taxes. Serfs in historical context usually only got to keep 1/3 of their earnings. So he gets to save/spend on himself 16 sp, 66 cp per week. That's not much to save. Of course, he needs an extra 10 gp if the cow dies. :nonono: So, with the basic estimations I have given Joe farmer can save 2 sp, 66cp each week. Nifty. What about his wife and children? Children would cost, by the above formula, 14 sp/week. That's 28 sp/week for the kids. If Joan Farmer can sew (ie, profession checks), the she can set aside 2 sp, 66 cp per week after feeding/clothing herself. That leaves the family 26.32 sp short per week. Jinkies.....it sucks to be a commoner doesn't it?
Dougan Axehammer 02-09-07, 03:32 AM	Just because a house sells for 1,000 gp does not mean it costs that much to make. Crafting rules say that you use a third of the market price in materials, so you're only using 300 gp worth of stuff to build that house with. The 1,000 gp would be the market price, what you sell it for after all of your work has been put into it.Which I had mentioned (though it is actually 3334 silver pieces.)As has been said, it would not have been just Joe and his dad doing *ALL* of the work. Ever hear of a "barn raising"? Maybe not, especially if you're from an urban area, but not too long ago, building a barn was a big deal for your farm. When you built a barn, you would get everybody you knew to come help. You would also typically provide the food for everyone helping you do the work. In return, you were expected to come help them when they built a new barn. There is still a vestige of this in the modern expression "raise the roof" when referring to a party. Hence, you would have the entire community coming to help you build that house, which in D&D terms means a bunch of people using Aid Other.Which is what changed my mind.You can always speed crafting up by voluntarily increasing the DC of the check. Effectively, you hurry the work, which means its harder to keep the quality up, but you get the job done faster. If you've got 20 people helping build your house, assuming they have basic training (aka at least a rank), they would have a 50/50 chance of getting a 10 to contribute that +2 via Aid Other. With 20 people, you would average out with a +10 to your check. You have whoever has the best check bonus oversee it, everybody else uses Aid Other, and you raise the DC as high as you can and still reliably make the checks.But you would still need the materials with which to build your structure. If you don't have enough materials for your project, then crafting would get slowed down; if your professionals could only get 85sp worth of materials, then only half of the 170sp per week of work would be able to get done.Much of the cost in materials would be something you could get for free, if you knew where to look. In real life, just look at what people buy when building things. Wood. If you live near the woods, and have an axe, you don't need to buy lumber, you can chop down trees and make a log cabin. Stone? You could buy from a stone yard, or you could go haul it yourself from the riverbed on dry years, or cart it down from the mountain. And if we really want to get technical, a Quarterstaff costs 0 gp, while firewood is what, 1 sp per bale? The staff is free because all you have to do is go cut down an appropriate sized sappling, and you've got your quarterstaff. You cut it up into chunks, and you've got firewood you could sell. So even if you don't want to say you could get the material for free, you could still just harvest wood for quarterstaves, split them up into kindling for firewood, and then count that towards your material costs.And the gathering of the wood would be governed by the profession skill. While a single piece of wood might not have much monetary value, wood that is suitable for building a house does. When you are making the profession check, you are determining how much value your work is providing. After that, we would need to apply that value to the materials needed for crafting (any extra could be sold for profit.) For Joe Commoner, my original research was for this question: without any ranks in profession-woodcutter or profession-lumberjack (which would only provide him with 7sp per week of wood or lumber) how did he get enough wood to build his house within 15 years, before his first son was born. That, and the actual topic of this thread ("Do the results of a profession skill check provide enough material value for the efforts with the craft skill?"), were both answered ("With the help of others, assuming they have at least one rank in woodcutting, they might be able to provide enough wood for the construction of a simple [DC5] house.")A case can be made that building the farm would count as one of those misc skills that fall under Profession (Farmer). While you wouldn't be skilled enough to make fine furniture, you would know the basics on how to put together a farm. Like making fences, or how to buid a simple homestead. After all, you don't make the Ranger make Craft checks when he builds himself a lean to out in the woods for the night, do you?It could, but I would dispute it. As I said before, the result of the profession check determines how much net value your labor provides to you (whether it be in usable materials, such as wood, or consumption goods, such as wheat.) After you plant your crops and tend your field, your labor is generating value the the check ends up determining. Craft on the other hand, the value of the provisions is worked to create an object of equal value. When the finished object is sent to market the value is marked up to its purchasing price. If you have profession-farmer, you know the basics of how to plant and work a field to reap the inherent value of the land. If you want to build a house, or a fence or anything else that a farm might need, then you would either hire out, or do the work yourself and perform a craft-carpentry (or blacksmith or whatever). Fortunately for most would be crafters, the skill is doable untrained; anyone can put some materials together and hope it turns into something recognizable. When that ranger is putting his lean-to together he is performing (perhaps) a craft-carpentry check. However, the product is so simple and inexpensive, there wouldn't be much check necessary. A lean-to would probably not be very costly to build; if it has any value, it wouldn't be any more than 1sp to "purchase", so that means he would need to provide 3cp of materials. It would also be a very simple item to create (DC5). So after his check of 10 (since he has no modifiers to his roll), he has contributed 50sp (the check times the DC) of materials to the finished product. That's well more than enough to complete the project, so he only does it in an hour or to. But he also needs to have the materials to begin with. Since he has no ranks in profession-gatherer, he will only earn 1sp for gathering the wood for today. Again that's plenty to build the shelter, and he even has enough left over for another one. Because this task could be accomplished by an unskilled laborer, I probably would require any checks. And, from reading what you have in the original post, I think you missunderstood the purpose of my article on regdar's.It wasn't that D&D economics is broken, but exactly the opposite, that they are *NOT* broken when used as written. No, I fully understand and support your intent in your article. My dispute, in this thread, was with what at the time seemed to me a flaw in the way profession and craft worked together. Since then, I have changed my perspective; more than one professional laborer (some one with ranks in profession-woodcutter) could indeed contribute to the total value of the materials.
Iver Gearsham 02-09-07, 04:18 AM	From SRD PROFESSION (WIS; TRAINED ONLY) Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. Action: Not applicable. A single check generally represents a week of work. Try Again: Varies. An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn an income cannot be retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your check result brought you. Another check may be made after a week to determine a new income for the next period of time. An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried. Untrained: Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day. You don't actualy Make anything with this skill It costs you nothing in materials it just takes TIME and produces Money. From SRD CRAFT (INT) Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill. Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft’s daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. (Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.) The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created. The DC, your check results, and the price of the item determine how long it takes to make a particular item. The item’s finished price also determines the cost of raw materials. In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved. However, you must make an appropriate Craft check when using the spell to make articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. A successful Craft check related to woodworking in conjunction with the casting of the ironwood spell enables you to make wooden items that have the strength of steel. When casting the spell minor creation, you must succeed on an appropriate Craft check to make a complex item. All crafts require artisan’s tools to give the best chance of success. If improvised tools are used, the check is made with a –2 circumstance penalty. On the other hand, masterwork artisan’s tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp). Find the DC from the table below. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces. If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week. If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again. Progress by the Day: You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) is in copper pieces instead of silver pieces. Creating Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials. Repairing Items: Generally, you can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth of the item’s price. When you use the Craft skill to make a particular sort of item, the DC for checks involving the creation of that item are typically as given on the following table. This one take time and money/raw matierials but you get somthing out of it a finished product. To do with as you like. You can't do both at the same time. Your mixing the two up and its annoying.
Edymnion 02-09-07, 08:28 AM	You can't do both at the same time.It depends on how you interpret the ruels. If I take max ranks in Profession (Blacksmith), then I can ply my trade and earn money from it. How does a blacksmith ply his trade? He makes stuff. Nowhere does it say he needs X ranks in Craft (Metalworking) before he's allowed to take ranks in Profession (Blacksmithing), so obviously those ranks must be giving him the ability to make SOMETHING. To be more precise, Craft is the skill used specifically to make individual objects, be it a sword, a house, or a pair of shoes. Profession is the skill to run an entire business, which would include doing the books, handling customers, and when necissary making your product. You will often find it adventageous to have good ranks in both skills, if you are a blacksmith for example, but it is not required. And a case can also be made that a profession check already covers the routine costs of your trade. To use blacksmithing again, you don't have to keep track of how much wood/coal you burn to heat your forge, how much metal you use, or anything else like that, it just gives you the final number for how much profit you made. Which, when applied to farming, may or may not include the payment of taxes, potential rent owed to the local lord, that sort of thing.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-09-07, 03:18 PM	Hunt down a 1st edition Oriental Adventures. While 90% of the book is not helpful, 10% is. There is an entire chapter about inserting non-PC related events (floods, ambassadors, banditry, bad crops, good crops, important marriage, etc.) into the capmaign on a Yearly, Seasonally, Monthly, and Weekly basis. Then look at the SRD for food and lodging and trade goods. Done? Ok. Here is the breakdown: Commoners are poor and thus eat poorly (compared to adventurers) Food costs: 1 sp/day. Commoners have other daily upkeep, I'd wager approximately half of what poor inn lodging would be per day. So another 1 sp/day. That means Joe Farmer needs to be able to take 10 on his weekly profession check and make 14 sp/week just to survive. And this is simply a very rough estimate using existing mechanics. Which he can do at level 1; he makes 5 gp/week (500 lbs of wheat, by the way o_O ) This is good, yes? But does not account upkeep of said farm, nor taxes. Serfs in historical context usually only got to keep 1/3 of their earnings. So he gets to save/spend on himself 16 sp, 66 cp per week. That's not much to save. Of course, he needs an extra 10 gp if the cow dies. :nonono: So, with the basic estimations I have given Joe farmer can save 2 sp, 66cp each week. Nifty. What about his wife and children? Children would cost, by the above formula, 14 sp/week. That's 28 sp/week for the kids. If Joan Farmer can sew (ie, profession checks), the she can set aside 2 sp, 66 cp per week after feeding/clothing herself. That leaves the family 26.32 sp short per week. Jinkies.....it sucks to be a commoner doesn't it? There's already rules for how much a farmer makes a day. 1 sp/day after food and stuff. When you live on a farm, you don't really need to buy much in the way of food.
Dougan Axehammer 04-01-07, 01:52 PM	It depends on how you interpret the ruels. If I take max ranks in Profession (Blacksmith), then I can ply my trade and earn money from it. How does a blacksmith ply his trade? He makes stuff. Nowhere does it say he needs X ranks in Craft (Metalworking) before he's allowed to take ranks in Profession (Blacksmithing), so obviously those ranks must be giving him the ability to make SOMETHING. To be more precise, Craft is the skill used specifically to make individual objects, be it a sword, a house, or a pair of shoes. Profession is the skill to run an entire business, which would include doing the books, handling customers, and when necissary making your product. You will often find it adventageous to have good ranks in both skills, if you are a blacksmith for example, but it is not required. And a case can also be made that a profession check already covers the routine costs of your trade. To use blacksmithing again, you don't have to keep track of how much wood/coal you burn to heat your forge, how much metal you use, or anything else like that, it just gives you the final number for how much profit you made. Which, when applied to farming, may or may not include the payment of taxes, potential rent owed to the local lord, that sort of thing. But the profession skill only provides goods (or commodities) and services. In order to make something the character needs to make a craft check (which could be untrained) after aquiring the raw materials to produce said item. For example, to make a horseshoe, a simple item - DC 5 - he will require iron (or steel), coal for the heat, and the appropriate tools. What profession does is provide a source for the materials, and the check determines how much material value is produced; it is then sold to a crafter, which is how the professional gets his gold per week, and why untrained professionals (those without ranks in the profession) get only a one silver per week. A farmer who needs to build a house (craft-carpentry) either needs to provide the materials himself (with a profession-woodcutting or profession-lumberjack) or needs to purchase the materials at market value. That is the relationship between profession and craft. About the only thing that profession - blacksmithing would provide is attaching the metal to something, such as shoeing a horse.
Roxlimn 04-01-07, 02:17 PM	The D&D economy is fundamentally screwed because it's a thinly veiled point-based character generation tool for handing out generic class indepedent powers in the form of magic and mundane items. Anything else is secondary to that - that's why the "D&D economy" such as it is, sucks, and will always suck.
Fencerboy 04-01-07, 02:32 PM	Don't expect things very far removed from the rules for fighting beholders to make sense in a game about fighting beholders. A lot of things seem "unrealistic" in D&D because people expect it to do way more than it's designed to do. D&D isn't a history simulator or an economic simulator or even a fantasy world simulator. It's a "killing monsters underground for gold and power" simulator, and a damned good one at that. The further away you get from killing monsters underground, the less suitable D&D becomes for modeling that situation. Just like a flathead screwdriver makes a fairly good Phillips screwdriver, an OK chisel, a lousy hammer, and a downright horrible microwave oven. Sigged for truthyness!!!
Rocketboy13 04-01-07, 11:53 PM	Craft and Profession don't make sense, that is what bothers you? How about the fact that next to no one uses magic to make money? Where are the air conditioners? Where are the cloth weavers? Where are the mass transit systems? How about construction machines like cranes and bull dozers? If you don't like it. Then fix it, and hope in 10 years when 4th edition comes out they intigrate it into the rules, along with better armor catagories.
Dougan Axehammer 04-02-07, 12:13 AM	Craft and Profession don't make sense, that is what bothers you? How about the fact that next to no one uses magic to make money? Where are the air conditioners? Where are the cloth weavers? Where are the mass transit systems? How about construction machines like cranes and bull dozers? If you don't like it. Then fix it, and hope in 10 years when 4th edition comes out they intigrate it into the rules, along with better armor catagories. Actually, I do understand how profession works with craft, though it took me a few posts to realize it. However, I do have an alternative system in the works. I am struggling with one thing, though: does anyone know what the typical price of land is in D&D? Would anyone know where I could find such information.
Squirrelloid 04-02-07, 12:48 AM	Come now, its really easy to see Craft costs are messed up - just look at Craft(Trapmaking), which tells you it takes days and 1000s of gp to make a 20' deep pit and cover it with branches and leaves... No, it takes a few hours of labor and a shovel, and something to hack some branches down with. Especially for the shape D+D characters are in, a single one could probably dig a 10'x10'x10' hole in about an hour. (Historically, every night after marching all day a Roman Legion excavated a 10' deep x 10' wide trench around their entire camp and used the dirt to construct a rampart inside the trench.) Days and 1000s of gp is ridiculous. Its a pit - the only material cost is a few sp shovel, and the only labor cost is your sweat. My characters routinely field fortify for the night with pit-traps, and when the rules for craft(Traps) came out we laughed our heads off and then completely ignored them.
Heros_Backpack 04-02-07, 01:06 PM	May I suggest one way a commoner family might legitimately find the money for their house? Specific Example Joe and Jill are born and brought up in a hamlet of 100 people. made up of 5 extended families - each of which specialises in a particular craft alongside their farming (carpentery, metalworking, pottery, weaving/sewing and thatching). At the age of 14, they start courting in earnest and decide they will eventually marry - but not yet. They both remain on their parents' farms and start saving every penny they can (1sp/day). After 5 years of hard work and frantic saving, their joint resources are just enough to pay for the materials for a house and the wages of the carpenter specialist (Total 3650sp). They marry aged 19, just after the harvest is in, and the whole hamlet pitches in to help build the house (half of them succeeding in Aid Another) and raising the specialist's roll from 18 (Com 2, 5 ranks, skill focus, takes 10) to 118. The house is a basic but typical item, so each week the hamlet puts 1180sp towards the total 10,000sp cost. After 9 weeks of communal effort, the house is ready to move into, and the newly wedded pair can concentrate on their own farmwork again. What do you think? Would this work?
Prator_the_Legendary 04-02-07, 04:57 PM	You want money to buy a house? How about this: A grown cow in D&D is worth 10 GP. A light cow weighs a thousand pounds. 1/2 lb. of meat costs 3 silver pieces. So, if you butcher the cow, you'll get about 300 gold after selling all the parts. Of course, this shows something even more broken about D&D economics.
SeptimusMagistos 04-02-07, 05:41 PM	Could the flaws in DnD economy be caused by a number of adventurers uncovering treasure that was out of circulation for some time, causing the economy to hyperinflate?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-02-07, 05:43 PM	You want money to buy a house? How about this: A grown cow in D&D is worth 10 GP. A light cow weighs a thousand pounds. 1/2 lb. of meat costs 3 silver pieces. So, if you butcher the cow, you'll get about 300 gold after selling all the parts. Of course, this shows something even more broken about D&D economics. No, that just shows a complete lack of understanding about anatomy. On your part.
Always-Late 04-02-07, 05:50 PM	You buy an iron pot. You melt it into iron. You sell it. You buy two iron pots. --- You buy a 10-foot ladder. You cut it into two ten-foot poles. You buy two 10-foot ladders.
Vaelan 04-02-07, 08:28 PM	So, if you butcher the cow, you'll get about 300 gold after selling all the parts. Have you seen a cow before? They do not, in fact, consist entirely of meat. You buy an iron pot. You melt it into iron. You sell it. You buy two iron pots. The materials to make an item cost a third of its value, as per the Craft rules. You're taking a large loss even without factoring in the cost of labor and overhead. You buy a 10-foot ladder. You cut it into two ten-foot poles. You buy two 10-foot ladders. You forgot the part about selling them. Also, poles tend to be rounded while the sides of ladders tend to be squared. Want to factor in the cost of the labor to whittle them down, the ladders that have to be discarded because of flaws that would become relevant when whittling them down, and half price for selling used goods?
Always-Late 04-02-07, 09:04 PM	You forgot the part about selling them. Also, poles tend to be rounded while the sides of ladders tend to be squared. Want to factor in the cost of the labor to whittle them down, the ladders that have to be discarded because of flaws that would become relevant when whittling them down, and half price for selling used goods?We're taking the place of an merchant now, not an adventurer. The key word is "tends," anyway. I can't imagine why a adventurer would need a round pole over a square one. I mean, we're just going to be poking for traps, right?
Fencerboy 04-02-07, 10:26 PM	Actually, I do understand how profession works with craft, though it took me a few posts to realize it. However, I do have an alternative system in the works. I am struggling with one thing, though: does anyone know what the typical price of land is in D&D? Would anyone know where I could find such information. Most of the costs for land would be left out of the books because there is no established real estate system, unsettled land is first come first serve/strong take weak rent OR land is already ruled by a fuedal lord, and you don't own land, you work it so you can live on it. With the general barbarism of the D&D campaign worlds the sale of land would fluctuate so much because of the constant territory exchange and/or invasion.
Davith Bothain 04-02-07, 10:55 PM	Personally, I don't think it's at all unreasonable for the manufacture of materials to take longer than the assembly and process of the refined product. In a day where artisans and craftsmen made things nearly entirely by hand, things would take quite a while to make in usable abundance. Let's take the elements required to make a common home of the time. Wood and wood products are to make up the bulk of the structure. In order to properly manufacture the lumber, one would need to chop down a tree, strip it of its limbs and bark, divide it into logs of usable size, and sculpt the logs into roughly geometric beams. Then the process repeats itself as more lumber is required (whoa, Warcraft flashback...). In contrast, an able-bodied commoner spending eight hours a day laboring on his future homestead could very likely, given the appropriate materials and tools, assemble the bulk of the framework of an average-sized medieval home in the span of a single day's work. Of course, a "simple home", to me, means extremely simple: one room, approximately twenty feet to a side, built for the purpose of keeping its inhabitants away from the elements. For something approaching luxury as we are conceivably used to it, one would need to shell out many thousands more gold pieces. Come now, its really easy to see Craft costs are messed up - just look at Craft(Trapmaking), which tells you it takes days and 1000s of gp to make a 20' deep pit and cover it with branches and leaves... No, it takes a few hours of labor and a shovel, and something to hack some branches down with. Especially for the shape D+D characters are in, a single one could probably dig a 10'x10'x10' hole in about an hour. (Historically, every night after marching all day a Roman Legion excavated a 10' deep x 10' wide trench around their entire camp and used the dirt to construct a rampart inside the trench.) I'm not necessarily in agreement about the cost of the endeavour, but how about you try moving 2000 cubic feet of material with a shovel, progressively moving downward. And for the Roman trenches, would the fact that there's a bloody legion digging the things make any impact upon progress? Joe and Jill are born and brought up in a hamlet of 100 people. made up of 5 extended families - each of which specialises in a particular craft alongside their farming (carpentery, metalworking, pottery, weaving/sewing and thatching). At the age of 14, they start courting in earnest and decide they will eventually marry - but not yet. They both remain on their parents' farms and start saving every penny they can (1sp/day). After 5 years of hard work and frantic saving, their joint resources are just enough to pay for the materials for a house and the wages of the carpenter specialist (Total 3650sp). They marry aged 19, just after the harvest is in, and the whole hamlet pitches in to help build the house (half of them succeeding in Aid Another) and raising the specialist's roll from 18 (Com 2, 5 ranks, skill focus, takes 10) to 118. The house is a basic but typical item, so each week the hamlet puts 1180sp towards the total 10,000sp cost. After 9 weeks of communal effort, the house is ready to move into, and the newly wedded pair can concentrate on their own farmwork again. ...Is it odd that I actually read this in the "Jack and Jill" cadence the whole way through before realizing the intent wasn't to make it such?
mobius2702 04-03-07, 12:09 AM	Come now, its really easy to see Craft costs are messed up - just look at Craft(Trapmaking), which tells you it takes days and 1000s of gp to make a 20' deep pit and cover it with branches and leaves... No, it takes a few hours of labor and a shovel, and something to hack some branches down with. Especially for the shape D+D characters are in, a single one could probably dig a 10'x10'x10' hole in about an hour. (Historically, every night after marching all day a Roman Legion excavated a 10' deep x 10' wide trench around their entire camp and used the dirt to construct a rampart inside the trench.) Days and 1000s of gp is ridiculous. Its a pit - the only material cost is a few sp shovel, and the only labor cost is your sweat. My characters routinely field fortify for the night with pit-traps, and when the rules for craft(Traps) came out we laughed our heads off and then completely ignored them. Really, though, are you crafting a trap or digging a pit? What sets the Search DC to find this camouflaged pit? What sets the Reflex DC to avoid this pit? Now we're delving into house rules. But here is a Trap that is being laughed at: Deeper Pit Trap CR 1; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; hidden switch bypass (Search DC 25); DC 15 Reflex save avoids; 20 ft. deep (2d6, fall); multiple targets (first target in each of two adjacent 5-ft. squares); Search DC 20; Disable Device DC 23. Market Price: 1,300 gp. Here is a location trigger, with a hidden switch bypass. Also, something is going on with the Disable Device DC of 23. I would imagine a covered pit trap would have a Disable Device DC of, oh, I dunno, 1. How hard can it be to pull the cover off? Quite clear that there is a LOT more than a covered hole here. Here's another pit trap: Camouflaged Pit Trap CR 1; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; DC 20 Reflex save avoids; 10 ft. deep (1d6, fall); Search DC 24; Disable Device DC 20. Market Price: 1,800 gp. This one is a bit tougher to explain, but I still question the Disable Device DC of 20. Again, it is more than a covered pit trap, which should be far easier to disable than a 20 would indicate. Clearly something is going on. Using the trap building rules, you can build a pit trap with a Search DC of 24 and a Disable Device DC of 3 (which is a bit more in line with a simple covered pit trap). This shows a cost of 100 gp, which would take about 6 days to craft using the rules. What is being crafted here? Clearly not digging the hole, that has no monetary value. Really, it's up to each group to describe what exactly is being crafted with that 100 gp. But a hole dug in the wilderness and covered with branches and leaves clearly has no monetary value, so it isn't a "trap" in the DnD sense of the word (a DnD "Trap" must have a monetary value), it's something else, and covered by different rules. The craft rules do what they are supposed to do. And there have been a number of examples on this thread of how to manipulate those rules to reproduce a realistic effect and provide a reasonable role-playing reason to justify those manipulations. If the craft rules were scaled so that 1 guy could build a small house in 9 weeks, what would that do the example given in a previous post (about the whole town turning out, etc.) If the rules can simulate a realistic scenario (a young couple saves for years, the whole town turns out to celebrate their union, they all pitch in and build a house, and 9 weeks later, they move on) with some accuracy, then there is something correct going on. The poster manipulated the rules and deftly explained them in a role-playing example. I say bravo.
mobius2702 04-03-07, 12:16 AM	I'm not necessarily in agreement about the cost of the endeavour, but how about you try moving 2000 cubic feet of material with a shovel, progressively moving downward. And for the Roman trenches, would the fact that there's a bloody legion digging the things make any impact upon progress? That and the fact that they built ramparts with the dirt. What are you going to do with the dirt for a covered trap? You can't just leave it in a big pile next to the trap. A part of the cost could be the mechanism by which you remove the dirt as you dig deeper into the hole. This is a transportable item. I would suggest that once you've crafted this item, you keep it for other holes. Then there's still something going on with the Disable Device check. It's more than a covered pit. To "disable" a covered pit, you remove the cover or go around it. A 20 isn't justified for that. There's more. I don't know what, but it clearly doesn't apply to a pit dug in the woods and covered by sticks and leaves.
Dougan Axehammer 04-03-07, 01:39 AM	May I suggest one way a commoner family might legitimately find the money for their house? Specific Example Joe and Jill are born and brought up in a hamlet of 100 people. made up of 5 extended families - each of which specialises in a particular craft alongside their farming (carpentery, metalworking, pottery, weaving/sewing and thatching). At the age of 14, they start courting in earnest and decide they will eventually marry - but not yet. They both remain on their parents' farms and start saving every penny they can (1sp/day). After 5 years of hard work and frantic saving, their joint resources are just enough to pay for the materials for a house and the wages of the carpenter specialist (Total 3650sp). They marry aged 19, just after the harvest is in, and the whole hamlet pitches in to help build the house (half of them succeeding in Aid Another) and raising the specialist's roll from 18 (Com 2, 5 ranks, skill focus, takes 10) to 118. The house is a basic but typical item, so each week the hamlet puts 1180sp towards the total 10,000sp cost. After 9 weeks of communal effort, the house is ready to move into, and the newly wedded pair can concentrate on their own farmwork again. What do you think? Would this work? Nicely done.:)
Squirrelloid 04-03-07, 01:42 AM	I'm not necessarily in agreement about the cost of the endeavour, but how about you try moving 2000 cubic feet of material with a shovel, progressively moving downward. And for the Roman trenches, would the fact that there's a bloody legion digging the things make any impact upon progress? In my *current* shape, I'd guess I could do it in 3-4 hours. If I was back in the high school-college transition, I could probably do it in 2 (was in much better shape then). Adventurers are in excellent physical condition because they spend all day hiking around carrying a crapload of gear, and when they aren't doing that they're training or swinging weapons at guys - My best guess is they could do it in 1 hour, easy. Yes, there's a legion, but they're digging more than 1 10'x10'x20' hole. They're surrounding the entire camp where they're going to sleep with a 10' wide x 10' deep trench, and then sculpting the dirt into field fortifications ~10' high. Now, a Roman legion is ~100 men (60-120 depending on when exactly we're talking - average about 100) - you figure everyone needs a 5'x10' area to sleep and store their gear, plus some room for moving around. Without counting room for moving around, that's a 5000 sq ft area you're surrounding with trench - if we assume they're maximally efficient and make a square, that's got a 70' x 70' perimeter (close enough - i'm even erring on the side of too little), which results in 70x10x10x4 = 28000 cu ft of earth that needs to be dug up, and then needs to be fashioned into ramparts. That's 280 cu ft of earth each, and you have to figure that less than half of them were going to do it every night because other legionaires had other things to be concerned with (keeping watch/standing guard, digging toilets, cooking, etc...), and yet others were making the ramparts. If you figure they spared 1/4 of their men to dig a trench (perfectly reasonable when you realize they were most vulnerable while digging), that's 1000 cu ft each. As standard operating procedure every night. This one is a bit tougher to explain, but I still question the Disable Device DC of 20. Again, it is more than a covered pit trap, which should be far easier to disable than a 20 would indicate. Clearly something is going on. Using the trap building rules, you can build a pit trap with a Search DC of 24 and a Disable Device DC of 3 (which is a bit more in line with a simple covered pit trap). This shows a cost of 100 gp, which would take about 6 days to craft using the rules. What is being crafted here? Clearly not digging the hole, that has no monetary value. Really, it's up to each group to describe what exactly is being crafted with that 100 gp. But a hole dug in the wilderness and covered with branches and leaves clearly has no monetary value, so it isn't a "trap" in the DnD sense of the word (a DnD "Trap" must have a monetary value), it's something else, and covered by different rules. First, disabled doesn't mean you know its there. Disabled means you can walk where it was without any mishap. An open pit is still a danger. I mean, if you just pull the branches off there is no Disable Device check - you made your search check, go you. The pit isn't disabled until falling into it is "impossible" (requires deliberate effort to make it possible again). Hence the DC 20. It doesn't take 100gp to dig a pit. It just takes an hour or two of labor. Try it sometime (ok, it will take you more than an hour or two - guess what, you aren't nearly in the physical condition a D+D character would be in, nor are you up to the physical standards of a Roman Legionare. Unless of course you're a marine or something, and then you probably can dig it in an hour and not even sweat hard). Digging holes is unskilled labor - its not valuable. What do you do with the dirt? Why you use it to fortify your camp of course (no, not right next to the pit, please. That's what Tenser's Floating Disc is for.) Its a trap in the sense that anyone trying to ambush you in the middle of the night needs to make a search check or run the risk of stumbling into it and hurting themselves (not to mention make a lot of noise for the party sentry to notice). Traps in D+D are things which are not "monsters" which are capable of causing harm through mechanical or magical means - the pit covered with branches certainly qualifies.
Dougan Axehammer 04-03-07, 02:03 AM	Most of the costs for land would be left out of the books because there is no established real estate system, unsettled land is first come first serve/strong take weak rent OR land is already ruled by a fuedal lord, and you don't own land, you work it so you can live on it. With the general barbarism of the D&D campaign worlds the sale of land would fluctuate so much because of the constant territory exchange and/or invasion. So if I wanted to build a wheat farm (craft-agriculture), all I would need to do, presuming I'm a freeholder, is stake out a plot of land - possibly several acres in size - and get the necessary materials to plant, sow, and (hopefully) reap. Afterwards, or during, I would make the appropriate craft check each week to determine the amount of progress made toward a market value three times my cost. Is this correct?
mobius2702 04-03-07, 03:37 AM	First, disabled doesn't mean you know its there. Disabled means you can walk where it was without any mishap. An open pit is still a danger. I mean, if you just pull the branches off there is no Disable Device check - you made your search check, go you. The pit isn't disabled until falling into it is "impossible" (requires deliberate effort to make it possible again). Hence the DC 20. It doesn't take 100gp to dig a pit. It just takes an hour or two of labor. Try it sometime (ok, it will take you more than an hour or two - guess what, you aren't nearly in the physical condition a D+D character would be in, nor are you up to the physical standards of a Roman Legionare. Unless of course you're a marine or something, and then you probably can dig it in an hour and not even sweat hard). Digging holes is unskilled labor - its not valuable. What do you do with the dirt? Why you use it to fortify your camp of course (no, not right next to the pit, please. That's what Tenser's Floating Disc is for.) Its a trap in the sense that anyone trying to ambush you in the middle of the night needs to make a search check or run the risk of stumbling into it and hurting themselves (not to mention make a lot of noise for the party sentry to notice). Traps in D+D are things which are not "monsters" which are capable of causing harm through mechanical or magical means - the pit covered with branches certainly qualifies. From the SRD: The minimum cost for a mechanical trap is (CR × 100) gp A pit dug in the wilderness covered with branches and leaves has no monetary value, so it isn't a mechanical trap. It's a trap, sure, but the rules governing the "crafting" of traps don't apply here. So, one shouldn't look at those rules and compare that to the example of a pit dug in the woods and laugh at the rules; instead, one should look at those rules and realize that they are not constructing a mechanical trap so those rules don't apply. Which rules do? I dunno. And a covered pit, once uncovered, is no longer a trap. It still poses a danger, sure, but no greater a danger than a cliff. Do cliffs have a CR? Once the trap is uncovered, it is disabled as a trap. Instead, it is a terrain hazard or whatever you want to call it. If one could somehow justify/create a mechanical device that could make uncovering a pit trap worth a DC 3 disable device, then it would be a mechanical trap. But until then, it's hole dug in the ground covered by leaves and branches, and governed by a different set of rules. Seriously, I hope no one digs a hole in the ground, covers it, and then argues that since none of the foes have any ranks in Disable Device (trained only) they cannot uncover it. I suppose I mis-spoke when I said it isn't a trap in the DnD sense... what I meant was that the Craft (Trapmaking) rules don't apply in the case of digging a hole in the ground.
Edymnion 04-03-07, 08:28 AM	Craft and Profession don't make sense, that is what bothers you? How about the fact that next to no one uses magic to make money? Where are the air conditioners? Where are the cloth weavers? Where are the mass transit systems? How about construction machines like cranes and bull dozers? If you don't like it. Then fix it, and hope in 10 years when 4th edition comes out they intigrate it into the rules, along with better armor catagories.They're in Eberron, where magic makes sense. You forgot the part about selling them. Also, poles tend to be rounded while the sides of ladders tend to be squared. Want to factor in the cost of the labor to whittle them down, the ladders that have to be discarded because of flaws that would become relevant when whittling them down, and half price for selling used goods?Iron is specifically listed as a trade good though, it can be sold at full market value, making the iron in your iron pot more valuable than the pot itself. Of course, getting the setup necissary to actually melt iron is pretty expensive, so its not a big issue. Except for the guys selling the pots, they're losing a mint.
Tyraxus 04-03-07, 10:11 AM	Now, a Roman legion is ~100 men (60-120 depending on when exactly we're talking - average about 100) Hah, no. A Century was approximately 80 men, while a Maniple was made up of two Centuries, or about 160. Three Maniples made a Cohort, and ten Cohorts made a Legion (actually nine regular cohorts plus the first cohort, which was made up of five maniple-strength centuries), for a total of about 5,100 infantry. Add in an alea of horsemen (about 120), plus the auxilia, and you're approaching 5,500, and that's just combat troops. With noncombatants, the number would have been closer to 6,000. And that's the standard legion, not a fully mobilized for war one that's recruiting natives into the auxilia as fast as it can.
OravennasBrother 04-03-07, 11:04 AM	Couple of comments. Second, a small house is definitely NOT a "simple item". Building a house takes lots of skill. Lots. For a (Vaguely) modern house you are spot on. But for a simple daub and wattle "Croft" typical of, say dark ages England, the skill is less. More that house is built as an effort by the lord of the land (using several laborers in conjunction) then rented to the peasant for a yearly fee. Crofts generally included an allotment of land, which also garnered money for the lord. VERY few peasants OWNED their homes. A Typical Peasant home was Daub and Wattle (Sticks and Mud) with a packed dirt floor and Thatch roof - and one room with a relatively low ceiling (perhaps a loft for storage or sleeping depending on local uses). The 1000 GP house IS a highly skilled effort with wodden frame and brick or stone and mortar walls, stone or woodedn floors and perhaps tiled roof.
Heros_Backpack 04-03-07, 03:05 PM	The 1000 GP house IS a highly skilled effort with wodden frame and brick or stone and mortar walls, stone or woodedn floors and perhaps tiled roof. Er - no. If the description in the Urban section is to be believed, the 1000gp simple house has plain wooden walls and a thatched roof. Stone walls start with Mansions and Castles.
DM-Scott 10-09-07, 07:35 PM	Another piece that people may not have really thought about. The survival skill can be used to feed one person with a DC 10 check. The actual skill description states a wild environment, though doesn't specify exactly what a "wild" environment is exactly. I believe most people consider rural or non-city locations wild environments, which would include most farming communities who often have hunters, furriers, and similar trades. In essence, a human with a 10 or 11 wisdom and no ranks can support himself by taking 10 on a survival check. This means that much of the rural commoners' food probably comes from growing it, hunting it, or foraging it; taking advantage of the resources of the land which otherwise wouldn't be available in cities. For example, setting simple traps for farm pests (rabbits, squirrels, or deer) could add a few morsels to the dinner table, and also bring in extra money or supplies for clothing (though this is going a bit deeper than usual and would likely benefit from some expanded rules). For every 2 points over 10, you can feed an extra mouth. This means that skill focus "survival" will serve a commoner well, because while he won't make as much money with his professions or crafts, he will also be more self reliant and independent, being able to take 10 and feed 2 people. If the farmers saved up enough, they can invest their money to increase their long term gains (for example, purchasing a 50gp tool for a profession or craft skill will net you a +2 to the check, and thus 1gp extra each week; 4gp per month. Paid for in a year and 2 weeks, and after that it becomes profit), which can be used for years or generations. In fact, using the current system as it exists in the game right now, I could create a village with the usual NPCs, and write up some personalities and typical attitudes for the majority of the population. If the head of the family is wise and plans ahead, as well as lives conservatively, the family could more or less own the entire village in a few generations. However, most people live life. They will work what it takes to get by, and they will spend much of their money coming in, and they won't store it away like pack-rats. They are more likely to go splurge a little at the tavern every now and then, or take their family out to have a dinner cooked in town, or even buy their wives, husbands, children, etcetera, gifts (though in D&D most jewelry and art objects are trade goods, so that could actually be an investment). Just some stuff to think about.