Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SveltGastropod 03-07-06, 01:35 PM	The first things I want to establish beyond reasonable doubt are our roles in the party. I am a cleric. I heal the wounded, turn undead, and hopefully score the occasional hit or two against a monster that gets too close to me. I don't have a very high AC or a huge amount or hit points; as you can imagine, this makes me somewhat vulnerable. You, my friend, are a monk. When I call you a meat shield, I'm not insulting you or making a joke; I'm describing your role in the party. You see that high number next to the armor class entry on your character sheet? That means monsters are likely to miss you. We want the monsters to try to swing at you and miss, thereby wasting their attack. Let me put it a little differently: Every time a monster swings at any party member BUT you, it's because you're not doing your job. I also want to point out that monsters aren't likely to swing at you WHEN YOU'RE HIDING BEHIND ME LIKE A LITTLE GIRL. Just a point of fact. Also, you do have a high number where it lists your movement speed, but that is there so you can jump in front of the more vulnerable members of the party (ie, me) more easily. It's not so that when we get attacked you can more effectively RUN OUT OF THE ROOM leaving THE CLERIC ALONE WITH TWO OGRES. (In case you were wondering - average survival time in a room alone with two ogres for a fourth level cleric is approximately 12 seconds, a clinical trial of 1 test case shows). In order to effectively work as a team, communication is key. That's why when I asked, "Do you have my back?" I wasn't speaking metaphorically. I didn't mean, "Are we close friends, or what?" I also wasn't speaking out of character - I didn't mean, "Hey, could you help me move next week?" or "Would you please get me a beer from the fridge?" I meant, quite literally, "Could you stand behind my back so the charging ogre doesn't kill me?" I perhaps made the mistake of taking your response ("Yes") too literally, as I assumed you were going to move behind me, instead of running away at blinding speed. I would like to point out that's hard to have someone's back when you're more than 40 feet in front of them. The next round I said something else which may have been misinterpreted, although I'm not sure how. I would have thought the sentence "OH GOD PLEASE PLEASE STOP THESE OGRES FROM POUNDING ME TO SLUDGE" was fairly devoid of ambiguity. I hope zombies eat your entrails and wear your liver for a hat. Sincerly, Granik Earbiter Former Halforc Cleric, Current Corpse
CzarGarrett 03-07-06, 02:04 PM	Bwhahahahaha. That is great. As an outside observer- with little knowledge of the other side of the issue: To the monk- the cleric can heal and ressurect your dead body. You cannot do the same for the cleric. Keep him alive.
Neodymium 03-07-06, 02:20 PM	to the monk's defense, granik should have been able to handle those ogres. He's a freaking cleric after all. The monk is no meat shield. He doesn't even have armor on. and his attacks would be pointless against the ogres. The cleric probably has a higher str. and just as many hp. Hey dead guy, you're not a wizard! you can take a hit. And i think we're not getting the full story here. but then again, i've never really trusted the dead.
Bruunwald 03-07-06, 02:34 PM	to the monk's defense, granik should have been able to handle those ogres. He's a freaking cleric after all. The monk is no meat shield. He doesn't even have armor on. and his attacks would be pointless against the ogres. The cleric probably has a higher str. and just as many hp. Hey dead guy, you're not a wizard! you can take a hit. And i think we're not getting the full story here. but then again, i've never really trusted the dead. A semi-decent natural AC bonus will hardly make the monk's attacks ineffective. It's not like your typical ogre is boasting about any DR. The monk is definitely the better fighter here, overall. He gets more attacks and has more options. The cleric can buff up, but he could just as easily buff the monk. In either case, he has to step out of the way to cast, and that means the monk should have been covering him. All of this is not to mention the fact that the monk has faster movement, while the cleric's mere normal movement was likely reduced by his armor. (In other words, the monk ditched his buddy like a hyena frat boy at an all-cop beer party.) Don't forget, Young One, the cardinal rule of which Czar just reminded you: protect the cleric or you'll find yourself dying quickly after him.
Vaelan 03-07-06, 06:39 PM	Problem: Clerics are better at taking hits than Monks. They have the size of hitdice. They have the same number of key ability scores, and thus they can both afford to invest in Constitution equally, though I would give the advantage to the Cleric here due to the priority of certain ability scores. Their hitpoints should be quite similar. Now we come to Armor Class. A Cleric could easily have access to full-plate and a heavy shield by level 4. A Monk will have nothing but Dexterity and Wisdom. The Cleric could, and should, have a higher AC score than the Monk at this point. As such, I would, as an unbiased third party, assert that Granik Earbiter's screams of "meatshield" were directed at the wrong person. The cleric can buff up, but he could just as easily buff the monk. "Range: Personal". Need I say more?
IceFractal 03-07-06, 06:50 PM	Sometimes the Monk is the meatshield and the Cleric the healer, sometimes the Cleric is the meatshield and the Monk the light skirmisher. In this case, it sounds like the former. And c'mon - running away at top speed? It doesn't matter how much a meatshield you think the Cleric is - that's just not being helpful at all. OP: If you ever get ressurected, you should "accidentally" cast Inflict Wounds instead of Cure Wounds on the Monk some time. Hey, they're only one word apart ... :schemes:
Dench 03-07-06, 07:18 PM	:rofl: Nope, the monk it's a better choice for battle than the Cleric. They share the same BAB and HD, but a Monk has a lot more choice in combat than a cleric. Flurry of blows, for example. A cleric has spells, yes, but he cannot cast them unless he cast defensivly and I don't think that a Inflict moderate wounds against an ogre helps too much. Of course, he can always stay in the back by making backup spells to the monk (cure spells, stats spells, etc...) And the Monk can roll Tumble, he deals much more dice damage than a heavy mace of a cleric... he can heal his own wounds!
Bruunwald 03-07-06, 07:46 PM	. "Range: Personal". Need I say more? What are you talking about? One or two spells? There are plenty of other spells that buff a cleric's companions. How about bless, aid, and elation, just to name a few low-level spells? How about bull's strength? Cat's grace? Gimme a break.
WizO_Cat 03-07-06, 09:16 PM	Thanks, this post was classic. It reminds me of a time when I was playing a cleric, one other was playing a rogue, and one was playing a paladin. Well, these fighters were taking us out because we were rolling horrendously. Well, first the rogue made a run for it. Then it was the paladin's turn. I had already made up my mind on hat I was going to do. Well, he asked the rest of the players what he should do. I told him that it's his decision - each player has to ply their character. He decided to fight. Next, my cleric ran like a cast member from "Chariots of Fire." The paladin was taken out a round later and we bailed him out of prison the next morning. Ahhh ... good times ...
Kevtar 03-07-06, 10:14 PM	Just for example.... Let's say we have 2 PCs with rolled stats, and just for fun, both of them get an 18 for wis and a 14 for dex. Also, both PCs are 6th lvl. Monk AC 17 (+2 Dex, +1 AC Bonus [Monk SA], +4 AC Bonus [Wis mod]) Now let's add some magic stuff just for fun Ring of Pro +1 Amulet of Natural Armor +1 Total AC 19 Cleric AC 20 (+1 Dex, +8 Full Plate, +1 Light steel shield) Now, just for fun, some magic protection +1 Full Plate +1 Light Steel Shield Total AC 22 Still, even more protection (which is still reasonable at 6th lvl) +1 Natural Armor +1 Ring of Protection Total AC 24 All totally reasonable with 6th lvl PCs (not to say that these PCs were 6th level, but that seemed like a good starting point for this little exercise). Now, add the cleric's sanctuary spell (with WILL SAVE being the important aspect of that spell when ogre's are concerned) and that cleric should have walked away unscratched. Even a spell like calm emotions would have done wonders for the cleric. Clerics are amazing because they get well-armored spellcasting ability with decent BAB and good saves. The monk just needs to learn how to make friends with the potentially most versatile PC in his party. ;) Monks are great, but really, they are like Rogues in many respects. They work best in tandem with other classes. Flanking, spring-attacking, but never toe-to-toe with big things that make you say "SQUISH" when they hit you.
WizO_Cat 03-07-06, 11:34 PM	Well, a couple of things as a point of reference: 1) His cleric was 4th level. 2) Even in the 6th level examples, it doesn't look like you gave the cleric equal amount in gp equivalency in magic items.
Kresalak 03-07-06, 11:42 PM	:rofl: Nope, the monk it's a better choice for battle than the Cleric. They share the same BAB and HD, but a Monk has a lot more choice in combat than a cleric. Flurry of blows, for example. A cleric has spells, yes, but he cannot cast them unless he cast defensivly and I don't think that a Inflict moderate wounds against an ogre helps too much. Of course, he can always stay in the back by making backup spells to the monk (cure spells, stats spells, etc...) And the Monk can roll Tumble, he deals much more dice damage than a heavy mace of a cleric... he can heal his own wounds! Have you ever played a cleric? Ever heard of C.o.D.zilla? Cleric is the best melee class in the game. Except maybe druid. A monk simply cannot compete-monk isn't even a tank class!
Tempest Stormwind 03-08-06, 02:56 AM	Have you ever played a cleric? Ever heard of C.o.D.zilla? Cleric is the best melee class in the game. Except maybe druid. A monk simply cannot compete-monk isn't even a tank class! I was there when CoDzilla was spawned -- in fact, the original post where it showed up (linked in my sig) opens with a response to one of my posts. And at fourth level, unless you're dealing with a very, very optimized cleric (some would call it cheating to get Divine Metamagic (Persistent) at level 1, but it's doable), at level 4, I'd rather have the monk guarding the cleric while the cleric buffs the monk and heals them both, rather than the cleric going all CoDzilla on everyone. The CoDzilla problem comes with optimization, not naturally. The cleric and druid will be able to subsume more and more party roles as they go up in level. Remember, though, even the druid (held by the CO boards to be stronger than cleric) needs to be level 5 before he can successfully outdo the tanks. That doesn't change the fact that this thread's opener is legendary. :)
Vaelan 03-08-06, 03:55 AM	What are you talking about? One or two spells? One or two spells out of about half a dozen, and those two spells happen to be the best. Nope, the monk it's a better choice for battle than the Cleric. You didn't read my post very well. I said the Cleric is better at taking hits. Nothing you mentioned has anything to do with taking hits.
Marchen 03-08-06, 09:59 AM	Eh? My cleric is a cast-iron tank. At level 3, there aren't many monsters that are able to crack my 21+ AC.
Bruunwald 03-08-06, 12:05 PM	One or two spells out of about half a dozen, and those two spells happen to be the best. Since you didn't bother to mention which ones, I will assume you're talking about divine favor and divine power. In this case, the cleric isn't even high enough level yet to cast the latter. That is a great spell, but the monk could have cleaned house if he covered the cleric long enough to cast something as simple as bless and then give him a bull's strength for good measure. He couldn't cast elation yet, I don't think, but its effects are different bonuses from bless, so again, both would be working at the same time, to great benefit. Put it to you this way: if the party's cleric can tank up my warmage/fighter, he can tank up a monk, no problem. And my warmage/fighter kicks ass, thanks to the party cleric. In any event, nobody is denying that a cleric is pretty good in a fight. But the notion that a monk for some reason is not, is patently ridiculous. Monks are built for kicking butt. They are based on kung fu movies, for crying out loud. And let's not forget the most important issue at hand here: That if the monk didn't run off and abandon his friend, they both might be alive right now. Remember? Two fighters... better than one? United we stand? Alone we are weak, together we are strong? How many cliches need to pile up before people get the idea that the monk left his buddy hanging when they might have overcome this encounter together?
Kevtar 03-08-06, 12:25 PM	Well, a couple of things as a point of reference: 1) His cleric was 4th level. 2) Even in the 6th level examples, it doesn't look like you gave the cleric equal amount in gp equivalency in magic items. OK, how about this. The following stat-blocks were created to illustrate the advantages and disadvantages of the cleric and monk classes. The PCs were creating using a 32-point buy without any attempts to min/max with feats, skills, etc... These are just "average" builds. I then gave each PC the same amount of gold: 5400 gp. The following are the results: Example A; Human Clr4: CR 4; ECL 4; Size M; HD 4d8+4; hp 27; Init +0; Spd 20 ft (base 30 ft); AC 21, touch 10, FF 21; BAB +3; Grapple +5; Atk: +5 melee (1d3 + 2, Unarmed), +6 melee (1d6 + 2, Mace, light MW); AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +9; Abilties: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 12. Languages spoken: Common Skills: Concentration +8, Diplomacy +8, Spellcraft +7; Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Feats: Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Spell Focus. Special Abilities: Aura, Bonus Languages, Domain Luck, Domain Magic, Domains, Spontaneous Casting, Turn or Rebuke Undead. Clr Spells Known (5/4/3): 0--Create water, Cure minor wounds, Detect magic, Detect poison, Guidance, Inflict minor wounds, Light, Mending, Purify food and drink, Read magic, Resistance, Virtue, 1--Bane, Bless, Bless water, Cause fear, Command, Comprehend languages, Cure light wounds, Curse water, Deathwatch, Detect chaos, Detect evil, Detect good, Detect law, Detect undead, Divine favor, Doom, Endure elements, Entropic shield, Hide from undead, Inflict light wounds, Magic stone, Magic weapon, Obscuring mist, Protection from chaos, Protection from evil, Protection from good, Protection from law, Remove fear, Sanctuary, Shield of faith, Summon monster i, 2--Aid, Align weapon, Augury, Bear's endurance, Bull's strength, Calm emotions, Consecrate, Cure moderate wounds, Darkness, Death knell, Delay poison, Desecrate, Eagle's splendor, Enthrall, Find traps, Gentle repose, Hold person, Inflict moderate wounds, Lesser restoration, Make whole, Owl's wisdom, Remove paralysis, Resist energy, Shatter, Shield other, Silence, Sound burst, Spiritual weapon, Status, Summon monster ii, Undetectable alignment, Zone of truth. Possessions: 29 pp, 2 gp, , Full plate +1, Light wooden +1 shield, Cloak of resistance +1, Light mw mace. Example B; Human Mnk4: CR 4; ECL 4; Size M; HD 4d8+4; hp 27; Init +5; Spd 40 ft (base 30 ft); AC 18, touch 16, FF 17; BAB +3; Grapple +4; Atk: +4 melee (1d8 + 1, Unarmed), +2 melee (1d8 + 1, Unarmed Flurry); AL LN; SV Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +8; Abilities: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 12. Languages spoken: Common Skills: Escape Artist +6, Hide +8, Jump +8, Move Silently +8, Sense Motive +8, Tumble +10; Feats: Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Stunning Fist. Special Abilities: Evasion, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, Ki Strike, Monk AC Bonus, Slow Fall, Still Mind, Unarmed Strike. Possessions: 40 pp, Amulet of natural armor +1, Ring of protection +1, Bracers of armor +1. Also, regardless of the armor, weapons, gold-pieces, etc... the fact of the matter remains that if the cleric had simple spells prepared, such as sanctuary or calm emotions, he could have walked away from that battle. Even if the monk ran away, I still think the cleric could have followed suit using spells at his disposal for buffs (shield of faith, Bless, Prayer, etc...) and feats (Combat expertise). I believe the Cleric either couldn't, or simply just didn't, prepare well for the combat, and as a result.... Died. The monk SHOULD have stayed, but really, would it have made that big of a difference if the cleric didn't use his abilities/resources to their maximum potential?
trolloc 03-08-06, 01:06 PM	if i was your DM, SveltGastropod , i would make you keep your old cleric and add him a undead template. Then it's up to you :evillaugh
The White Sorcerer 03-08-06, 01:10 PM	to the monk's defense, granik should have been able to handle those ogres. He's a freaking cleric after all. A 4th-level cleric. Alone. Against two CR 3 ogres. Should've been able to handle? How?
Kevtar 03-08-06, 03:09 PM	A 4th-level cleric. Alone. Against two CR 3 ogres. Should've been able to handle? How? Two CR3 Ogres IS an overwhelming encounter for a single cleric, but it is not impossible. Granted, there were factors involved in the OP’s encounter that we do not know. However, if we can take a simple example of some alternatives, perhaps we can see that, although a coward, Brother Tobias is not solely responsible for the death of Granik Earbiter (‘rest his soul). The following is a stat block for a CR3 Ogre straight from the SRD: Ogre CR 3; Size L; HD 4d8+8; hp 29; Init -1; Spd 20 ft (base 30 ft), ; base speed 40 ft.; AC 16, touch 8, FF 16; BAB +3; Grapple +12; Atk: +8 melee (2d8 + 7, Greatclub), +1 ranged (1d8 + 5, or javelin); SA -; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; AL CE; SV Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +1; Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7. Languages spoken: Giant, and those specimens who boast Intelligence scores of at least 10 also speak Common Skills and Feats: Listen +2, Spot +2; Toughness, Weapon Focus. Special Abilities: Darkvision, Low-light Vision. Possessions: Hide, Greatclub, Javelin. As you can see, he is +8 total with his Greatclub with a significant amount of damage. However, his AC 16 is his biggest weakness. In addition, his low Will saves make him particularly susceptible to a cleric PC (more-so than vs. a monk PC). The example cleric I used previously in this thread is listed below, with some small changes. I swapped the CON and INT scores to grant the PC access to the ‘Combat Expertise’ feat. I also dropped the augment summoning feat. Human Clr4: CR 4; ECL 4; Size M; HD 4d8; hp 23; Init +0; Spd 20 ft (base 30 ft); AC 26, touch 15, FF 21; BAB +3; Grapple +5; Atk: +5 melee (1d3 + 2, Unarmed), +6 melee (1d6 + 2, Mace, light MW); AL N; SV Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +9; Str 14, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 12. Languages spoken: Common Skills and Feats: Concentration +7, Diplomacy +8, Spellcraft +8; Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Spell Focus (enchantment). Special Abilities: Aura, Bonus Languages, Domain Luck, Domain Magic, Domains, Spontaneous Casting, Turn or Rebuke Undead. Clr Spells Known (5/4/3): Possessions: 29 pp, 2 gp, , Full plate +1, Light wooden +1 shield, Cloak of resistance +1, Light mw mace. At +6 with a Light Mace, this PC can hit the Ogre 50% of the time (I think that's right), but his damage is not great. It will take a few hits to get one ogre down, let alone two of them. So our friend should do two things right off the bat: (1) Stay back (2) Full Combat Expertise. This gives our cleric an AC of 26. An AC of 26 means the Ogres must roll an 18 to hit our friend the cleric, or a 16 if they can flank. However, there are other weapons in our cleric’s arsenal… spells. Roll Initiative, the Cleric has a leg-up at a mod of +0, while the ogre’s have a -1. Assuming the cleric wins, he can (1) combat expertise, (2) any number of options to survive: (a) Calm emotions, DC17 (+1 for spell focus). The ogres must roll a 16 or become non-threatening. or (b) Cast spiritual weapon, take the chance of getting hit by the ogre, cast another on the second ogre, take a chance of getting hit, then cast sanctuary (DC17, the Ogres only have a +1 to Will) and wait… (technically, the cleric is not making an attack action that would jeopardize the sanctuary spell. It's on automatic pilot. Now, IF he redirects the hammer, THEN the sanctuary would be compromised). At 1d8+2 every hit, and remember it's a gauranteed hit, it won't take too long to knock the ogres down. or (c) Cast Sanctuary, take a chance at getting hit, cast Bless, take a chance of getting hit, cast shield of faith, take a chance of getting hit, and finally protection from evil (last 1st lvl spell), and then drop combat expertise and start smacking the ogres. The cleric’s AC at this point is still 25 vs the ogres (they need a 17 to hit which is an 80% miss-chance [I think]). One big problem with taking chances of getting hit is the Ogres' chances of rolling critical hits. However, the threat range of a Greatclub is 5%, so alhtough two ogres at a 5% chance per ogre of rolling a critical is kinda risky, it is still pretty low. or (d) Hold Person? or (e) How about Sanctuary and just get the heck outta Dodge? [the town, not the feat ;)] Basically, all I’m saying is, that with the correct preparation and the right circumstances, a 4th lvl cleric can certainly survive a CR5 of (2) CR3 ogres (well, at least in theory, I’m going to try this out in practice with my sons tonight).
Xahr 03-08-06, 03:32 PM	Basically, all I’m saying is, that with the correct preparation and the right circumstances, a 4th lvl cleric can certainly survive a CR5 of (2) CR3 ogres (well, at least in theory, I’m going to try this out in practice with my sons tonight). :rofl: For the sake of this argument, your sons should have a Strength score of 21. Assuming you will be the level 4 cleric, and your sons will be the CR 5 encounter. Not sure it was what you meant, but I found it quite assuming nonetheless. :D
dalantjen 03-08-06, 03:46 PM	A cleric who KNOWS he is going to be facing two ogres, by himself, and has time to get the specific spells required probably could handle two ogres. However... This could have been a random encounter, an unexpected encounter, the third or fourth encounter of the day, etc. And the cleric could have been expecting to face other kinds of creatures that day, other types of encounters (such as talking some bandits out of their stolen traesure), etc. All of which could leave him with fewer/different spells than those which would be optimal in this encounter. And really, how many 4th level clerics memorize two spiritual weapon spells? Also, perhaps he does not have access to full plate/big shield. Maybe he is not designed as a tank. Maybe he has an established pattern with the monk of how combats go, which do not involve him being the main source of firepower. All that being said, with your "optimal" cleric, he has approx 22 hps at 4th level (no CON bonus). An ogre does 16 damage average from one hit, and max damage (on one hit) is 23. Which kills the cleric, by the way. To cast three buff spells, that is 6 potential attacks by the ogres. %-wise, at least one of them will hit, leaving the cleric with ~6 hp. Against two ogres. Even if he got both Spiritual weapons off, it would take a total of 5 rounds to finish both ogres off. That is potentially 10 attacks. And all this is with an optimal cleric with optimal prep for the encounter. Most of which goes to say that the cleric probably should have followed the monk's lead.
Findail 03-08-06, 05:56 PM	Were these the only 2 characters in the party? Apparently so! At higher levels (with more cash), the Monk would have Bracers of Defense. Until you get these, the key to survival in any serious fight is Mage Armor from the party Wiz/Sorc (or, at a pinch, a Cleric with the Force domain IIRC). Heck, without such a character, it's worth considering taking a level of Wiz/Sorc (unfortunately it would have to be 1st level if the DM enforces the Monk multiclassing restriction, but there's a workaround if the Apprentice-level rules are used: start as Monk 0 / Wiz 0). That way, you can also add Shield to your repertoire. And for 14 Dex and 14 Wis, that's AC 22 without items.
Dench 03-08-06, 06:04 PM	Have you ever played a cleric? Ever heard of C.o.D.zilla? Cleric is the best melee class in the game. Except maybe druid. A monk simply cannot compete-monk isn't even a tank class! What is C.o.D.zilla? I smell munchkinism :mad: And yes, I have played Cleric (like three) and they are a good class, but not the best. Any way, a Cleric cannot match in melee to a good Monk, and less if the Monk disarm your cleric and starts grappling, dealing unarmed damage and priving the cleric from casting and since AC doesn't count in grapple... well you can guess what happens because Monks have Improved Grapple as a choice, and after that point, it's just a matter of time before the cleric falls and the Monk stands triumphant. But the best melee class? Barbarian/Frenzy Berserker... or Fighter! reason? BAB, Best HD, SA for combat.
Dark_Druid 03-08-06, 06:24 PM	omg. funny. Tho, im FF tactics the monk COULD rez people.
Tempest Stormwind 03-08-06, 06:30 PM	What is C.o.D.zilla? I smell munchkinism :mad: And yes, I have played Cleric (like three) and they are a good class, but not the best.See the link in my sig about "Core's balanced, noncore's broken". If you do not find the cleric or the druid the strongest classes, hands down (note: The CO boards considers Druid 20 to be one of the strongest characters EVER), then you simply aren't trying. Any way, a Cleric cannot match in melee to a good Monk, and less if the Monk disarm your cleric and starts grappling, dealing unarmed damage and priving the cleric from casting and since AC doesn't count in grapple... well you can guess what happens because Monks have Improved Grapple as a choice, and after that point, it's just a matter of time before the cleric falls and the Monk stands triumphant. But the best melee class? Barbarian/Frenzy Berserker... or Fighter! reason? BAB, Best HD, SA for combat. More evidence you aren't trying. Druid (post level 5, especially past level 6) and Cleric (if properly optimized) will outdo all but the most insane Frenzied Berserkers in melee without even trying and with none of the risk of destroying the party, AND will still be able to heal and cast spells.
Rechan 03-08-06, 06:37 PM	:clap:
Dench 03-08-06, 06:52 PM	Well I don't have time to check that in your sig... but I still say this... Cleric are for support, they are the Battle Medics, not the Tank, I won't try one unless is for support the party, why does the cleric do the battle when someone else can do it for him? Let the Barbarian, the Monk and the Fighter get blood dirty. Cleric's there to make sure that they will defeat the enemy, not do the fighting. At least that's how I role my clerics and believe me, more than one person has congratulated me for the big support a wise cleric has. To think that the melee characters die more frequently than a caster that stays in the back is another reason. Clerics have full plate and wpn proficiency in the case they are really needed in melee... otherwise, I won't compete with someone that has best BAB and HD. Druids are cool, yeah, wild shape, wild feats, I do not have anything against them. Yes, I like to make other people to do the dirty work for me, but hey... it works. :devil: and because I play different it does not mean I haven't played at all.
Kevtar 03-08-06, 07:11 PM	A cleric who KNOWS he is going to be facing two ogres, by himself, and has time to get the specific spells required probably could handle two ogres. However... This could have been a random encounter, an unexpected encounter, the third or fourth encounter of the day, etc. And the cleric could have been expecting to face other kinds of creatures that day, other types of encounters (such as talking some bandits out of their stolen traesure), etc. Also, perhaps he does not have access to full plate/big shield. Maybe he is not designed as a tank. Maybe he has an established pattern with the monk of how combats go, which do not involve him being the main source of firepower. True. This was simply an excerise in response to a previous poster who asked, rather increduously, how a 4th lvl cleric could survive a CR5 encounter of 2 ogres. And really, how many 4th level clerics memorize two spiritual weapon spells? Don't get me started on this... lol... I've been DMing for my teenage sons who have determined that every class must DESTROY! All that being said, with your "optimal" cleric, he has approx 22 hps at 4th level (no CON bonus). An ogre does 16 damage average from one hit, and max damage (on one hit) is 23. Which kills the cleric, by the way. True. BUT-- :D I think the cleric can beat the odds, and he can also heal himself. To cast three buff spells, that is 6 potential attacks by the ogres. %-wise, at least one of them will hit, leaving the cleric with ~6 hp. Against two ogres. Even if he got both Spiritual weapons off, it would take a total of 5 rounds to finish both ogres off. That is potentially 10 attacks. Risking 6 attacks when the ogres have to roll an 18 or higher to hit is pretty reasonable. Also, remember, the 10 potential attacks that follow (while the spiritual hammer is going) are all dependent upon the ogres making Will saves vs. Sanctuary (DC17 in this case, meaning they need a 16+). So, the ogres must overcome a high AC and a high miss-chance. Most of which goes to say that the cleric probably should have followed the monk's lead. If they were the only two left, then reason would prompt most PCs to run.
SveltGastropod 03-08-06, 07:19 PM	Well, here's the specifics for those who are defending the cowardly monk without knowing the details. Now, I don't have the character sheets for either one, as Granik's got ripped up and Tobias' sheet is still in his owner's greasy hands. Granik hadn't had the chance to buy full plate yet (kind of a cash poor campaign) and he only had a 10 dex. Armed with a glaive, he had no shield. Half plate gives him an AC 17. Tobias (I think) had a Dex of 16 and a Wis of 16 (maybe more on the dex - not sure). He has a ring of shielding and an amulet of natural armor +1. A fellow party member had cast Mage Armor on him, giving him an AC of something like AC 22. Oh, plus dodge, that's 23 against one of the ogres. He usually fights defensively, bringing his total up to 26 w/tumble. He might have combat expertise as well, i'm not sure. So usually, when he's not hiding behind the other party members, he's usually pretty good at dodging blows. We didn't know if it was going to be a minute or an hour before encountering baddies, so i didn't cast any short duration buffs. When we entered the situation we had the understanding (at least, I thought we did) that Tobias would take the hits. On the first round, we saw the ogres. I made an attack (scoring 10 pts of damage or so) and moved 20' away. Tobias ran past me. The ogre charged and hit me for 16 pts of damage. On the second round, I asked Tobias to "get my back" and he agreed. Based on that information, I made a defensive attack (scoring another 8 pts of damage or so) and then moved away from the ogre, with the ogre missing the AOO. Tobias was supposed to move in behind of me (so even if the ogre chose to attack me instead of him I would get cover). Instead, he ran away and the ogre charged again, scoring 16 points of damage and bringing Granik to -1. If I had known that Tobias was lying, i would have healed myself, or else moved further away. It's worth noting that neither attack would have hit Tobias, and even if i attacked defensively on my first attack I would have gotten hit anyway. Now, I'm not saying I didn't make a tactical error or two, but I definately feel like Tobias killed Granik more than the ogres did. [Edited for clarity]
Kevtar 03-08-06, 08:10 PM	Well, here's the specifics for those who are defending the cowardly monk without knowing the details. Now, I don't have the character sheets for either one, as Granik's got ripped up and Tobias' sheet is still in his owner's greasy hands. That sucks, but I have to ask, "Why not take the body back to town and raise dead, reincarnate, resurrect, or whatever is available? Or is your party not keen on spending resources like that? Personally, I like parties that decide the first 5000gp of treasure goes into a "death fund" where there are always funds available for a needed raise dead. Then, when that is spent, the party re-builds the fund. Of course, our parties are usually 5 or more players, so the individual investment isn't too bad.
jaelis 03-08-06, 08:16 PM	Kevtar- Your cleric can't use Combat Expertise while casting spells. It requires an attack action.
Rechan 03-08-06, 08:16 PM	Personally, I like parties that decide the first 5000gp of treasure goes into a "death fund" where there are always funds available for a needed raise dead. Then, when that is spent, the party re-builds the fund. Of course, our parties are usually 5 or more players, so the individual investment isn't too bad. If he can't afford platemail, I doubt he can afford to be brought back.
RadicalTaoist 03-08-06, 08:34 PM	Well I don't have time to check that in your sig... but I still say this... Cleric are for support, they are the Battle Medics, not the Tank, I won't try one unless is for support the party, why does the cleric do the battle when someone else can do it for him? Let the Barbarian, the Monk and the Fighter get blood dirty. Cleric's there to make sure that they will defeat the enemy, not do the fighting. At least that's how I role my clerics and believe me, more than one person has congratulated me for the big support a wise cleric has. To think that the melee characters die more frequently than a caster that stays in the back is another reason. Clerics have full plate and wpn proficiency in the case they are really needed in melee... otherwise, I won't compete with someone that has best BAB and HD. This is more of the case of you not playing the cleric to be the powerhouse it could rather than any fault of the class. Which is not to say that clerics aren't awesome as support; they are. They can be awesome as support and still rock as combatants, often at the same time as necessary. That said, this was a level 4 cleric vs. two ogres, with no chance to escape reach or cast spells before getting slapped around. Clerics can be very strong tanks, but Granik was right to be ******.
Kevtar 03-08-06, 09:25 PM	If he can't afford platemail, I doubt he can afford to be brought back. Just investigating options. Maybe they can strike a deal with a local cleric where he can raise a dead party member in exchange for them performing a small task/completing a quest/defeating a monster/etc... The point is that if you have a PC that you really like, you can always talk with the other players/DM about ways to continue on with that PC.
Kevtar 03-08-06, 09:35 PM	Kevtar- Your cleric can't use Combat Expertise while casting spells. It requires an attack action. Isn't casting a spell an attack action? For instance, if you have Sanctuary, and then cast spiritual weapon, it is considered an attack that would eliminate Sanctuary and it is a spell. We always rule casting a spell that's a standard action equivalent to an attack action in regard to Combat Expertise, so if that's an alteration to RAW, then I'll scratch that from the list of possibilities with the cleric.
Kevtar 03-08-06, 09:38 PM	This is more of the case of you not playing the cleric to be the powerhouse it could rather than any fault of the class. Which is not to say that clerics aren't awesome as support; they are. They can be awesome as support and still rock as combatants, often at the same time as necessary. That said, this was a level 4 cleric vs. two ogres, with no chance to escape reach or cast spells before getting slapped around. Clerics can be very strong tanks, but Granik was right to be ******. I agree. The only point I was trying to make with my examples is that maybe a cleric, with the right combination of factors, could defeat a similar encounter without min/maxing or otherwise tweaking the rules. I'll bow-out now and let the thread get back on track to the intent of the OP.
WizO_Cat 03-08-06, 10:04 PM	OK, how about this. The following stat-blocks were created to illustrate the advantages and disadvantages of the cleric and monk classes. The PCs were creating using a 32-point buy without any attempts to min/max with feats, skills, etc... These are just "average" builds. I then gave each PC the same amount of gold: 5400 gp. The following are the results: Example A; Human Clr4: CR 4; ECL 4; Size M; HD 4d8+4; hp 27; Init +0; Spd 20 ft (base 30 ft); AC 21, touch 10, FF 21; BAB +3; Grapple +5; Atk: +5 melee (1d3 + 2, Unarmed), +6 melee (1d6 + 2, Mace, light MW); AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +9; Abilties: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 12. Languages spoken: Common Skills: Concentration +8, Diplomacy +8, Spellcraft +7; Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Feats: Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Spell Focus. Special Abilities: Aura, Bonus Languages, Domain Luck, Domain Magic, Domains, Spontaneous Casting, Turn or Rebuke Undead. Clr Spells Known (5/4/3): 0--Create water, Cure minor wounds, Detect magic, Detect poison, Guidance, Inflict minor wounds, Light, Mending, Purify food and drink, Read magic, Resistance, Virtue, 1--Bane, Bless, Bless water, Cause fear, Command, Comprehend languages, Cure light wounds, Curse water, Deathwatch, Detect chaos, Detect evil, Detect good, Detect law, Detect undead, Divine favor, Doom, Endure elements, Entropic shield, Hide from undead, Inflict light wounds, Magic stone, Magic weapon, Obscuring mist, Protection from chaos, Protection from evil, Protection from good, Protection from law, Remove fear, Sanctuary, Shield of faith, Summon monster i, 2--Aid, Align weapon, Augury, Bear's endurance, Bull's strength, Calm emotions, Consecrate, Cure moderate wounds, Darkness, Death knell, Delay poison, Desecrate, Eagle's splendor, Enthrall, Find traps, Gentle repose, Hold person, Inflict moderate wounds, Lesser restoration, Make whole, Owl's wisdom, Remove paralysis, Resist energy, Shatter, Shield other, Silence, Sound burst, Spiritual weapon, Status, Summon monster ii, Undetectable alignment, Zone of truth. Possessions: 29 pp, 2 gp, , Full plate +1, Light wooden +1 shield, Cloak of resistance +1, Light mw mace. Example B; Human Mnk4: CR 4; ECL 4; Size M; HD 4d8+4; hp 27; Init +5; Spd 40 ft (base 30 ft); AC 18, touch 16, FF 17; BAB +3; Grapple +4; Atk: +4 melee (1d8 + 1, Unarmed), +2 melee (1d8 + 1, Unarmed Flurry); AL LN; SV Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +8; Abilities: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 12. Languages spoken: Common Skills: Escape Artist +6, Hide +8, Jump +8, Move Silently +8, Sense Motive +8, Tumble +10; Feats: Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Stunning Fist. Special Abilities: Evasion, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, Ki Strike, Monk AC Bonus, Slow Fall, Still Mind, Unarmed Strike. Possessions: 40 pp, Amulet of natural armor +1, Ring of protection +1, Bracers of armor +1. This is a better comparison. If the monk is tumbling his heart out, he'll (a) be able to flank at least one of the ogres and (b) he'll get to use Dodge which will give him an AC 19 against one of the ogres. Also, the cleric needs to have spells prepared, which takes down his versatility immensely. Also, regardless of the armor, weapons, gold-pieces, etc... the fact of the matter remains that if the cleric had simple spells prepared, such as sanctuary or calm emotions, he could have walked away from that battle. Even if the monk ran away, I still think the cleric could have followed suit using spells at his disposal for buffs (shield of faith, Bless, Prayer, etc...) and feats (Combat expertise). I believe the Cleric either couldn't, or simply just didn't, prepare well for the combat, and as a result.... Died. The monk SHOULD have stayed, but really, would it have made that big of a difference if the cleric didn't use his abilities/resources to their maximum potential? Yes, the cleric could have done that if the DM allowed him to know beforehand to select which spells he needs to know. Keep in mind that I'd be tempted to have Minor Restoration, Delay Poison, Cure Paralysis, and spells as such ready. Yeah, you'd be buff for ogres, but what happens if you fight ghouls and your monk gets paralyzed? Do you end up ... well ... dead? Now, if the DMs days, "Hey, you're raiding a ogre castle to stop their lawlessness," then it is a very valid point. Keep in mind that the cleric is covering a vast array of responsibilites needed. It wouldn't be too unwise for him to prepare the defensive spells to help the Monk and be the focal point for healing. Really, the correct answer IMHO is that both party members should have been prepared for combat to work as a team, and the cleric ready for healing/restorative magic with some offensive spells while the monk helps with the traps.
The Grig Fiddler 03-09-06, 12:29 AM	This thread reminds me of a game I played awhile back. The group consisted of 2nd lvl charcters.Fighter,Rouge(me),Rouge,Sorcer or,and a Monk. The groups comes upon a couple of kobolds which wouldn't have been to bad except that about 12 more stepped out of the shadows, they had traps ready,and they all had wounding spears. In the first round the fighter gets caught in a net trap, I avoid a net trap, and the sorc starts casting every useful spell he has. The other rouge and the monk hide behind the wagon and throw darts. If I hadn't have had very good rolls,and if the DMs rolls had of been better we all probably would have died. Well the monk might have lived cause he would have ran away. Point is I hat when people play combat classes like little pansies.