An Open Letter to the Dungeons and Dragons Player Community [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Open Letter to the Dungeons and Dragons Player Community [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
r_younce
03-21-07, 10:19 AM As someone who has been DMing for twenty-plus years, something has really been cheesing me off lately.

I can't seem to run a published adventure without at least one, if not more, of my players already having read the thing.

I'm sorry, but if I'm going to spend $35 on Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, I want to be able to surprise the party, at least a little.

I think I have a solution, though. I've written it here (http://www.dndreviews.com/blog/2007/03/21/an-open-letter-to-the-dd-players-community/).

Let me know what you all think of my proposal!
Monteblanco
03-21-07, 10:22 AM You should either create your own adventures or, as my group did, expel the cheaters.
_Jayne_Cobb_
03-21-07, 10:23 AM Tell the players not to read it. Simple, no?
r_younce
03-21-07, 10:29 AM You should either create your own adventures or, as my group did, expel the cheaters.

I do, more often than not, create my own adventures. But I often like to incorporate elements from published materials, as well.

And, I'm not sure I can really think of them as cheaters. They are just as much into the game as me, and want to consume the best products the way I do. I can't hold it against them wanting to own Expedition to Castle Ravenloft - it's a quality product.

As far as just telling them "no," this is a bit trickier. By tipping my hand that I'm going to use a particular adventure, it raises the temptation to read it ahead. Besides, at heart I truly believe in the democratization of the game - anyone should be able to DM if they want. I just want them to hold off on reading stuff until I've had a chance to either run it or reject it.
WayneTheGame
03-21-07, 10:34 AM The simple solution is to trust your players enough that even if they have read it that they won't metagame. I've played in adventures that I've read beforehand, and you know what? There was never any problem at all because I knew not to meta-game.
r_younce
03-21-07, 10:43 AM Wayne - there is certainly that option. I can't police what they read, and I have no desire to anyways.

Some of my players, though, are particularly prone to metagame, especially the ones prone to buying and reading adventures.

*sigh*

If I hadn't been friends with some of these guys for so long, I probably would consider dropping them from the game. But I don't have friends so I can play D&D; I play D&D so I can spend time with my friends.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
03-21-07, 10:45 AM :uh-huh: You aren't seriouse? You want players to buy modules, and then not read them? Just leave them sit on their shelf, and what? Collect dust? Look pretty? I know, we can leave them in their orginal wrapping untill we're 90 and then sell them as collectors items. Oh-yaa wait 6 months then open them. I'm sorry but if i spent $35 on anything, i want to enjoy it, right then and there. Besides this isa book we're talking about, not a hand gun.

Further more if your spending, hours, and hours on a campign why in the nine hells do you need to run a mod anyway? Make one up yourself. Garentee your players won't have read that one. It isn't too hard.. just rip off the plot from somewere, state out the villian, add some monsters from that dusty old monster manual, and throw the players at it. The plot isn't even that difficult, all you really need is to develope a taste for horid movies.

For example: Setting the town of somewere. Tensions are high becuase of mounting worry about a war that may break out between the elvin lands, and the human kingdoms. Both sides have high level casters, and the resulting war would be devasting for the country side. recently the elves/humans have moved a large military, and a high levelcaster close to the boarder with the Town of somewere. If war were to break out, the town would surely be amoung the first to be effected by it.

Also in town is a traveling halfling who sells enterainment. Think traveling circus, only he does plays. He really likes to play on his odiences fears, and employs illusions, and other devices to draw them into his performances. The perfomance he is current pedling is a play about a town destroyed by a person who has become part ant. To further the experience, as he calls it, he has employed a local boy to dress up as an half-human half ant (Mant). The Mant is paid to jump out during the perfomance, and shock the audience. To add to this further the mant is sapposed to skulk around town, and scare poeple.

However the person who is playing the part of the mant is madly in love with a local girl. She however falls for one of the PCs. through whatever means you like, use your imagination, she manages to get one of the PCs to take her to the play. Or sees the PC at the play, and decides to get closer. the mant sees this, and becomes jealouse, and enraged. He attacks the PC, and makes a grab for the girl. the rest of the aufdience panics, cuasing absolute choas. In the ensueing chaos the mant takes the girl and runs off into the woods to a secret hide out.

That took me a little under 15 min. Kudos to anyone who recognises were the plot is from.
r_younce
03-21-07, 11:04 AM Again, I do a lot of adventure design on my own. But there are times that greatly benefit from the use of published adventures. Whether it is the spur-of-the-moment one-shot or the regular Saturday game that I'm not ready for because I worked 76 hours that week, I do need them at times. (Not looking for pity there, but at 35 with 3 kids and a small business, there are weeks that prep time is at a minimum).

Two of the six at my table have subscriptions to Dungeon, yet haven't run even a one-shot in over four years! What gives with that?!?
Seeker95
03-21-07, 11:18 AM I understand your pain. When I was in high school ('83-86), I was the DM. One day I learned that one of my players had purchased the DMG. I was devastated. I thought it spelled the end of my gaming. But the next session went fine. A few months later, that player asked if he could DM a module he had purchased.

My most recent campaign included six adventures from the website. I know at least one of my players is a frequent Boards surfer, so it was reasonable to assume she had also seen the adventures. But I changed names, two monsters, and an event location. Would it work? After the adventure was over, she told me she had indeed read the adventure before, but it wasn't until the final encounter that everything clicked into place.

So, my advice is to add just a little bit of your own into every adventure you buy, download or borrow. Most of the players that may already own what you are getting ready to run are playing "in character" enough that what they hear at the gaming table will not readily sync up with what they read. And if it does, give them a bit of trust.

If they violate the trust, call them on it. If they prove untrustworthy after that, you have some out-of-game decisions to make. From my experience, players are easy to replace. DMs are not. And the player worth keeping knows this too. The player who forgets this can be reminded. The player who ignores this is worth replacing.
mike_beavers
03-21-07, 11:31 AM You could find third party modules. some arent very good but you can change them to fit what you need. the second thing is to alter certain aspects of the module. If they are metagaming and know its a 4th level wizard that they are facing change it to something else perhaps a 3rd wizard and a 2nd fighter for example. Change the trap dc. Nothing is written in stone. If they had prepped for one thing and something else is there kinda defeats the metagame stuff
FroMagnum
03-21-07, 11:36 AM The DM is meant to be creative, make your own friggin' adventures.
Bob Loblaw
03-21-07, 11:39 AM First thing I would do is ask them not to read adventures until after they've been run through it. I do this with my group and they all respect (or I assume they do) this.

Second, by putting twists on things, you can make the adventure different. Even little things like changing names or classes of NPCs will trip them up. They may not realize where they are in the adventure.

Third, don't worry about it too much. I have run adventures for my group that another DM has run as well. It wasn't until half way through the adventure that the previous DM realized that he was in an adventure he has run. Two of the players had already been through the same adventure and didn't realize it until he said something. The party will do things that were never thought of, changing the adventures at times. The unpredictibility of players is wonderful at keeping old modules fresh.
r_younce
03-21-07, 11:46 AM These are all great ideas, folks, keep them coming. I really appreciate it!
Dragonteuthis
03-21-07, 12:07 PM I will re-iterate what I posted in reply to your blog.

This is a rather bizarre mindset. First off, you’re assuming that every single player meta-games. Secondly, your attitude simply reeks of “It’s the DM versus the player” thought process. And thirdly, you’re completely leaving out people like me; people who both DM and play on a regular basis.

I’ve ran published adventures before. I like them, they save time. Invariably, someone’s read it before or purchased it, or the adventure is included in a player’s guide (Example: The adventure at the back of the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook). But guess what? My players are playing a character. They can adopt a role, and their character acts as though the player never read that information. It really is that simple.

What disgusts me most is your outdated “DM versus players” attitude. You treat the players like enemies, who are not privileged to your secret knowledge. Does this make you feel superior? Allow me to re-assure you, you are not. Most of the worst DMs share that attitude, and I suspect it stems from a desire to feel superior over others. The game, I am afraid, is no longer about stuffing one’s ego. It’s about having fun.
DoveArrow
03-21-07, 12:18 PM Personally, I have never found it to be a problem if players know things about a module before the adventure begins. In fact, I have found that it can sometimes inspire better roleplaying, because the players have had time to think about how they want to talk to a particular NPC, or how they want to prepare for a particular combat.

In any case, so what if they read the module? If they're good players, they can feign ignorance about what's to come and let the other players figure things out for themselves. If they're not good players, then you can make them roll Intelligence and/or Wisdom checks before suggesting that the other players try something. If that doesn't work, try docking XP off the player's character sheet every time they reveal a secret through metagaming until they stop doing it. Chances are, they'll stop doing it real fast.

Incidentally, why does all the responsibility have to be on the players to tell you that they've bought a particular module? After all, there's four of them and only one of you. Is there anything stopping you from telling players that you're planning to run a particular module? The simple answer to that question is no, so rather than complaining about players having read the module before you've had a chance to run it, you should try alerting them so that they know they shouldn't. After all, I doubt that any of your players are buying the module so that they can follow along, and have a godlike insight into what's about to happen next. My guess is, they probably bought the module for the same reason you did; they thought it sounded cool, it might be fun to run some day.
Evil DM Mk3
03-21-07, 01:17 PM I had a player who did this quite a lot. I FEEL YOUR PAIN. Really I do. He runied 6 weeks of games. Then I changed the class of the BBEG. Wizard->Monk. Boy was he ever suprised when he "charged in to get AoO on spells, and you, cleric, get ready to counterspell!"

:D

He never did it again.
TheYeti1775
03-21-07, 02:14 PM And what would you do with those of us that both DM and are a Player?

Not all players will Meta-game.
Currently my DM is running us through City of the Spider Queen with a few changes (Drow are Trogs are one), its not even set in the Forgotten Realms but in Dawnforge. He asked me if I had a copy of the module, and simple asked me not to read/refresh on it. Easy enough to refrain. I might pop it open after he says we get through it, just to see things we missed. But really it would ruin my fun to open it right now as we near the climax of it all.

So nope don't agree with your letter in the least bit.

Yeti
khyron1144
03-21-07, 02:42 PM Most of the people I play with also DM a game or two of their own.

I am the only one that I know of who spends much on DM's eyes only materials, like published adventures, monster books, and campaign settings.

I've never played in a module that I've read and I don't think any players have read the few modules I've run.
r_younce
03-21-07, 06:37 PM Most of the people I play with also DM a game or two of their own.

Lucky you. We've got a group of 12 with 2 DMs. We can get the other guys to DM a session or two every now and again, but on the average, it is just us.

Not that I mind so much. I'm just not sure why the player who has never run a game, or has seldom run a game and has no intention of ever doing so again as long as I'm around, would drop his hard-earned cash on an adventure. Why not buy Power of Faerun (an excellent read, by the way, I highly recommend it - see the review on my site) instead?

Surely, there are other supplements that players could be buying. I know there are, I've seen them!
Ranger REG
03-21-07, 09:12 PM I think I have a solution, though. I've written it here (http://www.dndreviews.com/blog/2007/03/21/an-open-letter-to-the-dd-players-community/).

Let me know what you all think of my proposal!
That's your solution that force me to open a new browser window when you can simply summarize it here ... in one sentence? :uh-huh:

Personally, this is a common yet localized problem. You need to establish some honor system among players and DM. If a player did bought the book, then you might as well not buy it, OR buy it and "change the script."

Even the production of LOTR have many rewrites as well as many takes before deciding what should be on the final film product during editing/post-production phase.

If you already have a feel for your group for the past 20 years or five (their likes and dislikes, how to entertain them or grab their attention), you should be able to craft your own adventures based on their preferences.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
r_younce 03-21-07, 10:19 AM	As someone who has been DMing for twenty-plus years, something has really been cheesing me off lately. I can't seem to run a published adventure without at least one, if not more, of my players already having read the thing. I'm sorry, but if I'm going to spend $35 on Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, I want to be able to surprise the party, at least a little. I think I have a solution, though. I've written it here (http://www.dndreviews.com/blog/2007/03/21/an-open-letter-to-the-dd-players-community/). Let me know what you all think of my proposal!
Monteblanco 03-21-07, 10:22 AM	You should either create your own adventures or, as my group did, expel the cheaters.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-21-07, 10:23 AM	Tell the players not to read it. Simple, no?
r_younce 03-21-07, 10:29 AM	You should either create your own adventures or, as my group did, expel the cheaters. I do, more often than not, create my own adventures. But I often like to incorporate elements from published materials, as well. And, I'm not sure I can really think of them as cheaters. They are just as much into the game as me, and want to consume the best products the way I do. I can't hold it against them wanting to own Expedition to Castle Ravenloft - it's a quality product. As far as just telling them "no," this is a bit trickier. By tipping my hand that I'm going to use a particular adventure, it raises the temptation to read it ahead. Besides, at heart I truly believe in the democratization of the game - anyone should be able to DM if they want. I just want them to hold off on reading stuff until I've had a chance to either run it or reject it.
WayneTheGame 03-21-07, 10:34 AM	The simple solution is to trust your players enough that even if they have read it that they won't metagame. I've played in adventures that I've read beforehand, and you know what? There was never any problem at all because I knew not to meta-game.
r_younce 03-21-07, 10:43 AM	Wayne - there is certainly that option. I can't police what they read, and I have no desire to anyways. Some of my players, though, are particularly prone to metagame, especially the ones prone to buying and reading adventures. sigh If I hadn't been friends with some of these guys for so long, I probably would consider dropping them from the game. But I don't have friends so I can play D&D; I play D&D so I can spend time with my friends.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-21-07, 10:45 AM	:uh-huh: You aren't seriouse? You want players to buy modules, and then not read them? Just leave them sit on their shelf, and what? Collect dust? Look pretty? I know, we can leave them in their orginal wrapping untill we're 90 and then sell them as collectors items. Oh-yaa wait 6 months then open them. I'm sorry but if i spent $35 on anything, i want to enjoy it, right then and there. Besides this isa book we're talking about, not a hand gun. Further more if your spending, hours, and hours on a campign why in the nine hells do you need to run a mod anyway? Make one up yourself. Garentee your players won't have read that one. It isn't too hard.. just rip off the plot from somewere, state out the villian, add some monsters from that dusty old monster manual, and throw the players at it. The plot isn't even that difficult, all you really need is to develope a taste for horid movies. For example: Setting the town of somewere. Tensions are high becuase of mounting worry about a war that may break out between the elvin lands, and the human kingdoms. Both sides have high level casters, and the resulting war would be devasting for the country side. recently the elves/humans have moved a large military, and a high levelcaster close to the boarder with the Town of somewere. If war were to break out, the town would surely be amoung the first to be effected by it. Also in town is a traveling halfling who sells enterainment. Think traveling circus, only he does plays. He really likes to play on his odiences fears, and employs illusions, and other devices to draw them into his performances. The perfomance he is current pedling is a play about a town destroyed by a person who has become part ant. To further the experience, as he calls it, he has employed a local boy to dress up as an half-human half ant (Mant). The Mant is paid to jump out during the perfomance, and shock the audience. To add to this further the mant is sapposed to skulk around town, and scare poeple. However the person who is playing the part of the mant is madly in love with a local girl. She however falls for one of the PCs. through whatever means you like, use your imagination, she manages to get one of the PCs to take her to the play. Or sees the PC at the play, and decides to get closer. the mant sees this, and becomes jealouse, and enraged. He attacks the PC, and makes a grab for the girl. the rest of the aufdience panics, cuasing absolute choas. In the ensueing chaos the mant takes the girl and runs off into the woods to a secret hide out. That took me a little under 15 min. Kudos to anyone who recognises were the plot is from.
r_younce 03-21-07, 11:04 AM	Again, I do a lot of adventure design on my own. But there are times that greatly benefit from the use of published adventures. Whether it is the spur-of-the-moment one-shot or the regular Saturday game that I'm not ready for because I worked 76 hours that week, I do need them at times. (Not looking for pity there, but at 35 with 3 kids and a small business, there are weeks that prep time is at a minimum). Two of the six at my table have subscriptions to Dungeon, yet haven't run even a one-shot in over four years! What gives with that?!?
Seeker95 03-21-07, 11:18 AM	I understand your pain. When I was in high school ('83-86), I was the DM. One day I learned that one of my players had purchased the DMG. I was devastated. I thought it spelled the end of my gaming. But the next session went fine. A few months later, that player asked if he could DM a module he had purchased. My most recent campaign included six adventures from the website. I know at least one of my players is a frequent Boards surfer, so it was reasonable to assume she had also seen the adventures. But I changed names, two monsters, and an event location. Would it work? After the adventure was over, she told me she had indeed read the adventure before, but it wasn't until the final encounter that everything clicked into place. So, my advice is to add just a little bit of your own into every adventure you buy, download or borrow. Most of the players that may already own what you are getting ready to run are playing "in character" enough that what they hear at the gaming table will not readily sync up with what they read. And if it does, give them a bit of trust. If they violate the trust, call them on it. If they prove untrustworthy after that, you have some out-of-game decisions to make. From my experience, players are easy to replace. DMs are not. And the player worth keeping knows this too. The player who forgets this can be reminded. The player who ignores this is worth replacing.
mike_beavers 03-21-07, 11:31 AM	You could find third party modules. some arent very good but you can change them to fit what you need. the second thing is to alter certain aspects of the module. If they are metagaming and know its a 4th level wizard that they are facing change it to something else perhaps a 3rd wizard and a 2nd fighter for example. Change the trap dc. Nothing is written in stone. If they had prepped for one thing and something else is there kinda defeats the metagame stuff
FroMagnum 03-21-07, 11:36 AM	The DM is meant to be creative, make your own friggin' adventures.
Bob Loblaw 03-21-07, 11:39 AM	First thing I would do is ask them not to read adventures until after they've been run through it. I do this with my group and they all respect (or I assume they do) this. Second, by putting twists on things, you can make the adventure different. Even little things like changing names or classes of NPCs will trip them up. They may not realize where they are in the adventure. Third, don't worry about it too much. I have run adventures for my group that another DM has run as well. It wasn't until half way through the adventure that the previous DM realized that he was in an adventure he has run. Two of the players had already been through the same adventure and didn't realize it until he said something. The party will do things that were never thought of, changing the adventures at times. The unpredictibility of players is wonderful at keeping old modules fresh.
r_younce 03-21-07, 11:46 AM	These are all great ideas, folks, keep them coming. I really appreciate it!
Dragonteuthis 03-21-07, 12:07 PM	I will re-iterate what I posted in reply to your blog. This is a rather bizarre mindset. First off, you’re assuming that every single player meta-games. Secondly, your attitude simply reeks of “It’s the DM versus the player” thought process. And thirdly, you’re completely leaving out people like me; people who both DM and play on a regular basis. I’ve ran published adventures before. I like them, they save time. Invariably, someone’s read it before or purchased it, or the adventure is included in a player’s guide (Example: The adventure at the back of the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook). But guess what? My players are playing a character. They can adopt a role, and their character acts as though the player never read that information. It really is that simple. What disgusts me most is your outdated “DM versus players” attitude. You treat the players like enemies, who are not privileged to your secret knowledge. Does this make you feel superior? Allow me to re-assure you, you are not. Most of the worst DMs share that attitude, and I suspect it stems from a desire to feel superior over others. The game, I am afraid, is no longer about stuffing one’s ego. It’s about having fun.
DoveArrow 03-21-07, 12:18 PM	Personally, I have never found it to be a problem if players know things about a module before the adventure begins. In fact, I have found that it can sometimes inspire better roleplaying, because the players have had time to think about how they want to talk to a particular NPC, or how they want to prepare for a particular combat. In any case, so what if they read the module? If they're good players, they can feign ignorance about what's to come and let the other players figure things out for themselves. If they're not good players, then you can make them roll Intelligence and/or Wisdom checks before suggesting that the other players try something. If that doesn't work, try docking XP off the player's character sheet every time they reveal a secret through metagaming until they stop doing it. Chances are, they'll stop doing it real fast. Incidentally, why does all the responsibility have to be on the players to tell you that they've bought a particular module? After all, there's four of them and only one of you. Is there anything stopping you from telling players that you're planning to run a particular module? The simple answer to that question is no, so rather than complaining about players having read the module before you've had a chance to run it, you should try alerting them so that they know they shouldn't. After all, I doubt that any of your players are buying the module so that they can follow along, and have a godlike insight into what's about to happen next. My guess is, they probably bought the module for the same reason you did; they thought it sounded cool, it might be fun to run some day.
Evil DM Mk3 03-21-07, 01:17 PM	I had a player who did this quite a lot. I FEEL YOUR PAIN. Really I do. He runied 6 weeks of games. Then I changed the class of the BBEG. Wizard->Monk. Boy was he ever suprised when he "charged in to get AoO on spells, and you, cleric, get ready to counterspell!" :D He never did it again.
TheYeti1775 03-21-07, 02:14 PM	And what would you do with those of us that both DM and are a Player? Not all players will Meta-game. Currently my DM is running us through City of the Spider Queen with a few changes (Drow are Trogs are one), its not even set in the Forgotten Realms but in Dawnforge. He asked me if I had a copy of the module, and simple asked me not to read/refresh on it. Easy enough to refrain. I might pop it open after he says we get through it, just to see things we missed. But really it would ruin my fun to open it right now as we near the climax of it all. So nope don't agree with your letter in the least bit. Yeti
khyron1144 03-21-07, 02:42 PM	Most of the people I play with also DM a game or two of their own. I am the only one that I know of who spends much on DM's eyes only materials, like published adventures, monster books, and campaign settings. I've never played in a module that I've read and I don't think any players have read the few modules I've run.
r_younce 03-21-07, 06:37 PM	Most of the people I play with also DM a game or two of their own. Lucky you. We've got a group of 12 with 2 DMs. We can get the other guys to DM a session or two every now and again, but on the average, it is just us. Not that I mind so much. I'm just not sure why the player who has never run a game, or has seldom run a game and has no intention of ever doing so again as long as I'm around, would drop his hard-earned cash on an adventure. Why not buy Power of Faerun (an excellent read, by the way, I highly recommend it - see the review on my site) instead? Surely, there are other supplements that players could be buying. I know there are, I've seen them!
Ranger REG 03-21-07, 09:12 PM	I think I have a solution, though. I've written it here (http://www.dndreviews.com/blog/2007/03/21/an-open-letter-to-the-dd-players-community/). Let me know what you all think of my proposal! That's your solution that force me to open a new browser window when you can simply summarize it here ... in one sentence? :uh-huh: Personally, this is a common yet localized problem. You need to establish some honor system among players and DM. If a player did bought the book, then you might as well not buy it, OR buy it and "change the script." Even the production of LOTR have many rewrites as well as many takes before deciding what should be on the final film product during editing/post-production phase. If you already have a feel for your group for the past 20 years or five (their likes and dislikes, how to entertain them or grab their attention), you should be able to craft your own adventures based on their preferences.