Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Great Cthulhu 06-24-05, 10:00 PM	In a thread by RMGCLF, someone was arguing about some of RMGCLF's monsters being anachronisms in D&D and should be in d20 modern. This lead me to think about anachronisms. Are they necessary? So what if you use guns in your campaign? So what if you opt for space travel and aliens? So what if the evil wizard NPC has a futuristic robot for a slave? So what if you use monsters, items etc. from video games, TV, and books? This is Dungeons and Dragons! Reality is supposed to be neglected in this sense. (Not in all senses, mind you, but in this sense.) I feel that it is not anachronistic* if futuristic things exist in a Dungeons and Dragons game. Do guns, trains, and robots equal a d20 modern or d20 future game? I THINK NOT! I'm sorry if this seems to be a rant, but I wanted to voice my opinion upon this sort of thing. Comments etc. are accepted. (Obviously.) :rant: *I think I made this word up, but I could really care less.
ĐēşţĩŊŷ 06-24-05, 10:15 PM	A friend once told me that he didn't want to play exalted because it was supernatural, and i replied with "is it more "real" to blast aliens in a starship in Star Wars? Or to slay a dragon and get some phat lewt"... It's your own game, mix it if you please, but find a logical reason to why they are there. Ps: Just read my post again and i've got no idea of what the first few sentence were supossed to mean :cool:
Great Cthulhu 06-24-05, 11:48 PM	It's your own game, mix it if you please, but find a logical reason to why they are there. That's exactly what I mean. :D
Gellion 06-25-05, 12:32 AM	Yeah, besides some "anachronisms" be they technilogical or even social ones, can add charm to the setting. :)
weasel fierce 06-25-05, 01:24 AM	I dont personally like that sort of stuff in my fantasy games, but if someone has fun with them, then obviously its working out great for them. Its your game.
Great Cthulhu 06-26-05, 10:25 AM	:bump: I hope more people have opinions on D&D anachronisms than that!
Iron Cobra 06-26-05, 10:47 AM	I dislike them if overused or created, as RMGCLF does. And hey, I am the poster you referred to, at least give me some credit :cool: If you start to dilute the game that much, it loses it's initital charm in the first place and becomes something else (which is why we have d20 modern)
Sinaz 06-26-05, 10:55 AM	There's no such thing as an "anacronism" in fantasy. Hence the term... fantasy.
Iron Cobra 06-26-05, 11:01 AM	A majority of those are in fact, science fiction. You can't shake the fact some things don't click in D&D, no matter how limited the perspective
MT-296 "Dagger" 06-26-05, 11:37 AM	Meh. Then I guess Eberron is full of these. airships and lightning rails ((Magical train)) Anything can be part of D&D, It's fantasy after all. If you've got a good reason to put it there, go for it!
celtredleg 06-26-05, 11:55 AM	I have used "wilderlands of high fantasy" as a campaign setting for almost 30 years now. It was one of the very first to be published. It has always included tech elements like crashed spaceships and guns. I have always used a small amount, just to very things a bit.
hiryuu 06-26-05, 12:08 PM	D&D is full of anachronisms. Full plate, rapiers, gender roles, almost nonexistent racism, and the apparent presence of modern dental care and personal hygene.
LadyCreator 06-26-05, 12:17 PM	Anne McCaffrey's Pern books (Dragonriders, etc.) do this very well. If it's well-done and supported by a consistent story, it's fine. If it's just a matter of jamming in everything that looks neat, it turns into mush.
The Shaman 06-26-05, 12:43 PM	If it's well-done and supported by a consistent story, it's fine. If it's just a matter of jamming in everything that looks neat, it turns into mush.Well-said. Personally I like the fantasy settings I create to be long on traditional medieval tropes and short on things like psionics, robots, and the like - I also don't like to treat magic as commonplace, like the Realms or Eberron (which represent opposite extremes in power level but are each suffused with magic items and spell-casters) or as a form of technology. That's not to say that any of these options are bad - thery're just not my cup of tea when I sit down to play a fantasy RPG. Of course, I play d20 Modern more than anything, so for me it's a case of how much fantasy goes into my Modern!
Iron Cobra 06-26-05, 01:22 PM	:shocked: apparent presence of modern dental care and personal hygene. WHOA, I mentioned this a short while ago! :eek:
roetroc 06-26-05, 11:26 PM	I was tempted (before work became a huge hindrance to DnD time), on running a DnD campaign based on a historical limitations to equipment and some classes but still allowed the various races to fill in as various nationalities. The longer lived races remained the same characters whilst the short lived races were reincarnated. I intended to have it move from a 400 AD England (around the time the Romans left Britain) to end in the mid 17th C (The Civil Wars). I would limit things like full plate to the time when it became available, monks are removed as the annoyances that they are, barbarians are limited to wilder areas and earlier periods. My players were keen too, but unfortunately RL did not permit.
CzarGarrett 06-27-05, 10:27 AM	Yeah, it is pretty much impossible to have a true anachronstic situtation in a game where mythology from all corners of the world are meshed together in kingdoms with modern day standards and adventures occur due to the actions of people/beings running around with all kinds of magic items. Hell, they had Spelljammer as a connection to D&D. Once you have spaceships and a part of a normal situation, you can't complain about things not necessarily fitting together.
Iron Cobra 06-27-05, 10:42 AM	Spelljammer...the horrors *shudders* :twitch:
babysamurai 06-27-05, 11:53 AM	Spelljammer...the horrors *shudders* :twitch: I have very fond memories of Selljammer, I think it's one of the most innovative campaign settings ever, and I am sick of it getting the shaft by WoTC and Paizo. But as usual, that's just my arbitrary opinion...each to his own.
J Milburn 06-27-05, 12:00 PM	Well, i dont like the idea of robots and space ships, but i do like the 'anything can be created by an evil wizard with help from the outer planes' philosophy. BTW, Whats the sudden obsession with the phrase 'Phat lewt'?
hiryuu 06-27-05, 01:13 PM	:shocked: WHOA, I mentioned this a short while ago! :eek: Great minds, Iron Cobra, great minds. Anyway, I think I threw a bunch of anachronism stuff into my humor campaign. Had mica tables with salt and pepper shakers and wire holders, TV, radio, and so on, but no real modern conveniences or guns anywhere.
The Listener 06-27-05, 01:40 PM	In my campaign that I am DMing, I have pre-WWI rifles in my world. Does that make it any less of a fantasy? Of course not! Magic can still interact with rifles and revolvers (A creative sorcerer can do wonders with a revolver), Melee combat is still deadly due to reload times, and rifles can be just as diverse as any melee weapon (Imagine the beauty of an elven sniper rifle). Of course, I know the impact that firearms will have on a civilization. Heck, that's what my whole campaign is based off of! As cities are growing more and more self-sufficient, and as more and more "beast" races such as kobolds, troglodytes and the like become more civilised and open up trade, the King looses more and more influence, and the invention and use of guns renders King-appointed knights obsolete. This is the staw that breaks the King's back, and revolution ensues. D&D doesn't have to be set in the Middle ages. Explore your options, you might find something you'll like :)
CzarGarrett 06-27-05, 02:12 PM	D&D doesn't have to be set in the Middle ages. Explore your options, you might find something you'll like :) That seems to be the crux of this arguement. When does it stop being D&D and start being d20 Modern?
Koga:The ninja trick 06-27-05, 02:31 PM	It says alot about you when you can't take a game lightly, it shows how you react to life even moreso.. The Koga finnaly got the courage to DM, it was a scary thing. Because The Koga went for a game he wasn't expecting to get like ten players.. NPC horror/comedy scenario. The rules were simple, you rolled a d6 (Magewright included.) to see what npc class you were, then ruled four d6 for your stats, then The DM would roll a d12 for your starting gold. The problem wasn't the lack of good equipment or power-breaking classes, the problem was the comedy. Two players walked out because they couldn't deal with gaps in the plothole, (Which were done on purpose.) and kings that flaunted thier baby-skin shoes who wanted you to get as close as you could to the BBEG and get one of his "STDs". (Stuff.That.Destroys.) :P To top everything off The Koga had a newbie player in his group, you know the newbie player. The one who plays chaotic neutral, makes his character out to be annoyingly evil, and whines how he can't max out his character with cool equipment so you can tell by his sheet that he fudged atleast one of his rolls. And yet still somehow The Koga pulled foward, hoping for the best. So now The Koga has another very humble newbie player who rolled up a magewright, The Koga was sad to see two good players go, but if you can't stand the heat then YOU pay the electric bill to get a fricking air conditioner lol! :P
weasel fierce 06-27-05, 05:36 PM	When I translated Koga's post into english, I found that I agreed with him :) If you dont like the style, start your own game, in a style you like. Personally, I feel the change from being "D&D" tosomething else, happens when you start deviating too much from the litterary material the game is based on. Once it no longer resembles that, you have something else. That "else" can be awfully cool and fun, but I dont really consider it D&D anymore. Most likely, I'd rather use something else, like GURPS or a Basic Roleplaying derivative for that then
The Listener 06-27-05, 09:55 PM	Personally, I feel the change from being "D&D" tosomething else, happens when you start deviating too much from the litterary material the game is based on. Once it no longer resembles that, you have something else. I happen to disagree. Maybe it is because the only real "Middle Earth" book I have ever read was "The Hobbit" about 6 years ago, and maybe it was because I only watched 5 minutes of "Lord of the Rings" (I put it in, got a phone call so I paused it, and never got around to watching it before I had to give it back to the person I borrowed it from), but when I look at D&D, I basically see a canvas, where I can use material of my own, combine it with WotC and other's materials, and make my own world. Heck, the DMG gives RULES for futuristic weaponry (though I'm probally going to make my own to make it slightly less deadly). It's only Middle Earth/Middle Ages as you want it to be.
weasel fierce 06-27-05, 10:00 PM	Tolkien is only really a minor influence on D&D. Drop by the library and grab stuff like the old Conan books, Moorcocks novels or the fantastic Jack Vance :) But well, its all in our tastes. If you like your D&D with dwarven riflemen, elven musketeers and orcish steamtanks.. Im sure you'll have a blast :) (literally possibly, depending on the construction of said tank....) It's only Middle Earth/Middle Ages as you want it to be. Agreed, and I happen to want it to be middle ages (though not middle earth). Hence, thats how I run it. Your mileage may, and hopefully, does, vary.
Herecgunina 06-27-05, 10:13 PM	Editted for content - my bad, as they say.
roetroc 06-28-05, 03:35 AM	D&D doesn't have to be set in the Middle ages. Explore your options, you might find something you'll like :) And of course by the time rapiers came in the matchlock rifle was already established as were cannons and bombards. In fact by the time plate harness (full plate) came in handguns and hand cannons had already begun appearing.
Iron Cobra 06-28-05, 08:25 AM	Iron Cobra: What's the deal, man? Why all the hostility of late? I mean, it's fine to present your opinions, but you could couch them in tact and basic 'playing nice'itude. Insulting that guy's monsters, the threads on Deities/Epic... To put it a geeky way, try taking ten on your diplomacy checks. It'll cut back on all the natural ones you've been rolling. Get some cajones and we'll talk.
babysamurai 06-28-05, 09:08 AM	Get some cajones and we'll talk. You seemed okay at first, but I just looked at your join date, and now it's obvious why you're so overtly aggressive (i.e. running aroung like a chicken with its head cut off responding to every possible thread and post). Maybe after you have been posting to these boards for more than 5 minutes you'll get the hang of it...relax kid. ;)
Herecgunina 06-28-05, 11:42 AM	hehe, 'cajones'.
Iron Cobra 06-28-05, 12:03 PM	Ok, pants stain. Samurai-sama. It's always good to defer to your inferiors. My "join date" is irrelevant in my mannerisms and attitude - i've had previous accounts here, since July or so. Oh, and Mr. Herecgunina, you come on a thread where I exhibit little to no hostility and make this off topic comment? Why not private message, or IM me and spare the thread this needless drama (which i'm propogating and well aware of) And finally, being overtly passive and easily pushed around is no better than being overtly agressive.
Herecgunina 06-28-05, 12:09 PM	Edit: You're right. This doesn't belong here. Double Edit: Last bits of unbecoming sarcasm removed. My apologies to Cthulhu for hijacking his thread. Anyway, back to the subject at hand - I think anachronisms are fine for somebody who likes them. Myself, I'm a traditional medievalist (although not a Tolkienist), so I try to minimize their appearance in my game. I at times have chastized characters for using modern expressions when speaking "IC", even.
StormKnight 06-28-05, 12:10 PM	I don't care too much if odd stuff gets mixed in, but I think I've got a lingering aversion to sci-fi elements in fantasy games from the fact that every darn computer RPG used to do it...Wizardry, Ultima, Might and Magic. And they all seemed to think it was going to be some cool, great suprise. I got pretty sick of it.
Iron Cobra 06-28-05, 12:11 PM	But you aren't just refusing to back down when somebody challenges you - you're deliberately insulting people. Maybe you're content to run and hide, but I don't back down. Sorry pal.
Iron Cobra 06-28-05, 12:18 PM	Edit: You're right. This doesn't belong here. My apologies to Cthulhu for hijacking his thread to deal with the kiddies. It's just that all of his OWN threads get locked before I can respond. ;) Anyway, I think anachronisms are fine for somebody who likes them. Myself, I'm a traditional medievalist (although not a Tolkienist). :clap: Can you spell assumption? Come on, spell it with me a-s-s-u-m-p-t-i-o-n... :D
babysamurai 06-28-05, 01:15 PM	:clap: Can you spell assumption? Come on, spell it with me a-s-s-u-m-p-t-i-o-n... :D Wow, do you have issues. I suggest you take your medication and go to bed...it will all be okay.
Iron Cobra 06-28-05, 01:37 PM	Hey look! It's assumer #2, putting the baby in babysamurai ;)
hiryuu 06-28-05, 01:55 PM	Anyway, back to the subject at hand - I think anachronisms are fine for somebody who likes them. Myself, I'm a traditional medievalist (although not a Tolkienist), so I try to minimize their appearance in my game. I at times have chastized characters for using modern expressions when speaking "IC", even. You'd be surprised how many modern expressions aren't really "modern" at all. For example, "modern" ghetto slang was rampant in the 1930s. The swear words we use now have been around since the 1700s at least. The word "chainmail," however, has only been with us since the late 1970s.
babysamurai 06-28-05, 02:14 PM	Hey look! It's assumer #2, putting the baby in babysamurai ;) That's me baby, but seriously Iron Fool, I was wondering how old you are, and how long you have been playing, because you sound like a frustrated 15 year old who has been playing for about 2 weeks. But then again I could be assuming again. They call me the assumer I've been assuming low and high ahh
Mercurius 06-28-05, 02:40 PM	Myself, I like a bit of anachronism in my games. The dwarves and gnomes of my world have built guns. Not flintlocks, but revolvers, rifles, and a rudimentary machine gun that's heavy as heck. They don't see wide use because they're hard to make and require some generally nonconventional training, but when dwarven armies mobilize, there are gun units, and one of their clans has dedicated its fighting style to gun combat and pass their firearms down through their families as other clans do their waraxes or urgroshes. Is it "fantasy"? I'd like to think it is, if for no other reason than the guns work in the same fantastical framework that allows swords to never go dull, armor to never be dented beyond mobility, or shields to be enchanted by a skilled wizard. Like the sig says, fantasy doesn't have to be a medieval Europe.
Sulaco 06-28-05, 02:41 PM	A majority of those are in fact, science fiction. You can't shake the fact some things don't click in D&D, no matter how limited the perspective The only limited perspective is one that says certain things cannot "click" in D&D.
Iron Cobra 06-28-05, 03:00 PM	Or, likewise, a limited perspective (for example, yourself) could not easily distinguish the two and use that as a justification for your flawed reasoning.
Thorvar 06-28-05, 03:15 PM	When I play D&D or any fantasy game I am something of a "purist". I prefer a pre-rennaisance tech level for the most part, although I don't mind a few wacky gnome inventions and the like. I draw the line at harquebuses and hand-cannons as far as weapon tech goes (I love the Warcraft setting for example), but I prefer to stay in the equivelant of a late Roman empire type setting to late Middle Ages as far as the tech goes.
Herecgunina 06-28-05, 03:19 PM	You'd be surprised how many modern expressions aren't really "modern" at all. For example, "modern" ghetto slang was rampant in the 1930s. The swear words we use now have been around since the 1700s at least. The word "chainmail," however, has only been with us since the late 1970s. I admit that my knowledge of the particulars is limited (my own field is classical studies and so my knowledge drops sharpy after 476 AD ;)). That's why I try to be lenient when I'm uncertain. But when people start saying "yo" to the bartender, I do have to step in. And also I must point out that neither the 1930s or 1700s is 'medieval'. I tend to aim for roughly the Hundred Years War era. (Now granted, I don't make people start speaking late middle english, either. I guess my degree of 'filtration' could be called arbitrary).
Sulaco 06-28-05, 03:20 PM	Or, likewise, a limited perspective (for example, yourself) could not easily distinguish the two and use that as a justification for your flawed reasoning. Then, since neither has any historical basis and need not fit within any real-world parameters, explain to me the difference. Also, please explain how my perspective that the only thing preventing one from making use of anything in a game is being constrainted by their own pre-conceived ideas, a perspective that by definiton is widely inclusive, is in any way "limited". An anachronism is something that is out of place historically or chronologically. D&D is not history, thus the only things that could be anachronistic in D&D are those that violate each setting's own internal timeline and it has thing to do with what may or may-not be anachronistic in relations to our real-world middle ages.
hiryuu 06-28-05, 04:07 PM	I admit that my knowledge of the particulars is limited (my own field is classical studies and so my knowledge drops sharpy after 476 AD ;)). That's why I try to be lenient when I'm uncertain. But when people start saying "yo" to the bartender, I do have to step in. And also I must point out that neither the 1930s or 1700s is 'medieval'. I tend to aim for roughly the Hundred Years War era. (Now granted, I don't make people start speaking late middle english, either. I guess my degree of 'filtration' could be called arbitrary). Yeah? I'd smack a guy who said "yo" to a porter if I'm running a medieval fantasy game.
Mercurius 06-28-05, 04:27 PM	Yeah? I'd smack a guy who said "yo" to a porter if I'm running a medieval fantasy game. :blush: I did that once. The town guard at the guard post greated the characters with a "yo." The intention was to make him come across as very... casual and unrefined, but it didn't really work very well.
Azzy 06-28-05, 08:07 PM	I just wanted to pipe in that anachronisms have been featured in D&D since Dave Arneson expanded upon the fantasy supplement for the original Chainmail game. Blackmore, anyone? Then there's always Expedition to the Barrier Peak from 1e....
CzarGarrett 06-29-05, 08:48 AM	An anachronism is something that is out of place historically or chronologically. D&D is not history, thus the only things that could be anachronistic in D&D are those that violate each setting's own internal timeline and it has thing to do with what may or may-not be anachronistic in relations to our real-world middle ages. This is one of the truest things said in this whole thread. A D&D campaign based on a sort of pre-history set, it would be anachronistic to have a knight in full plate running around. Unless there was a story/plot to go along with it. Normally, dinosaurs are anachronistic in most D&D settings, but Eberron has gotten them in there, so for Eberron, dinosaurs are NOT anachronistic. Anachronisms just don't really exist in D&D.
KelanenPrinceofSwords 06-30-05, 10:44 PM	As Sulaco properly stated, D&D is not history. In history, there are no elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. There is no magic. There are no dragons. If you tried to run a historical game, it wouldn't look much like D&D at all (and IMHO, it would be pretty dull).
Hairfoot 06-30-05, 11:51 PM	As Sulaco properly stated, D&D is not history. In history, there are no elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. There is no magic. There are no dragons. How about St George and the dragon? Or the dwarves, gnomes, kobolds, and trolls from the Nordic folk tradition? Maybe St George just faced down a very lost Komodo dragon, or just hid in the woods for a while then came out shouting that he'd slain a dragon. But the legend is inspiring. D&D plugs directly into real-world history by putting flesh onto folk tales. Of course it's not the history that WAS, it's the history that could have been.
Chris StarShade 07-01-05, 12:56 AM	LOL! Anachronisms, that's a good one! It's not like we're in the real world here. Things are only anachronistic if the DM has decided that the wizard has a robot in spite of the fact that robots have not yet been invented. However, since the DM gave the wizard a robot, the DM has clearly decided that robots HAVE been invented! *gasp*! I am using a cosmology where the tech level is different on the various planes. Thus, in one part of the multiverse, the players may be just fine with crossbows and such, but another part of the multiverse would throw elite soldiers armed with automatic rifles at them (in a dead magic zone taboot).
weasel fierce 07-01-05, 01:06 AM	As Sulaco properly stated, D&D is not history. In history, there are no elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. There is no magic. There are no dragons. There are no dragons in Star Wars either, and I think most star wars fans like to keep it that way. For the same reason, I'd rather not have Blasters in D&D
KelanenPrinceofSwords 07-01-05, 07:12 AM	How about St George and the dragon? Or the dwarves, gnomes, kobolds, and trolls from the Nordic folk tradition? Maybe St George just faced down a very lost Komodo dragon, or just hid in the woods for a while then came out shouting that he'd slain a dragon. But the legend is inspiring. D&D plugs directly into real-world history by putting flesh onto folk tales. Of course it's not the history that WAS, it's the history that could have been. Very true, Hairfoot. Of course, like many of Earth's legends from ancient or medieval eras, there are anachronisms even in the depictions of St. George. The historical St. George is nearly always depicted in late-Middle Ages plate armor, even though he died about 1,000 years before it was invented. (Fun facts: St. George was probably from Cappadocia, but he is the patron saint of England; he was martyred in 303 AD.)
Azzy 07-01-05, 07:14 AM	I'd rather not have Blasters in D&D You're about 30 years too late.
KelanenPrinceofSwords 07-01-05, 07:17 AM	There are no dragons in Star Wars either, and I think most star wars fans like to keep it that way. For the same reason, I'd rather not have Blasters in D&D Isn't there something called Krate dragons (or Kray dragons?) in the Star Wars universe? And is the force not basically magic? I don't like blasters, robots, spaceships, or any other traditionally "sci-fi" elements in my "medieval" RPGs either, for the record. I'm just agreeing with the fact that in a "fantasy" or "sci-fi" setting that is not specifically supposed to be Earth, there is technically no such thing as an anachronism.
CzarGarrett 07-01-05, 09:27 AM	Isn't there something called Krate dragons (or Kray dragons?) in the Star Wars universe? Krayt Dragon
Chris StarShade 07-01-05, 09:58 AM	It seems to me that St. George slew an only moderately lost crocodile. Or maybe it was a real dragon? Remember that mock documentary on dragons they had a while ago? Something about them having a hydrogen sack that they used to help them fly and breathe fire... heh
SinisterSeraph 07-01-05, 04:07 PM	I have a question; If DM A likes to have a very well-defined and clearly "Medieval" fantasy campaign, And DM B likes to shake his campaign up with laser or dinosaurs or robot or whatever, And neither DM plays in or has any connection to the others campaign, Who Cares? If I like my games one way and you like yours another, then we play our games the way we like. Neither of us are "right" or "wrong".
Sulaco 07-04-05, 02:06 PM	There are no dragons in Star Wars either, and I think most star wars fans like to keep it that way. For the same reason, I'd rather not have Blasters in D&D Cross-genre is not the same thing as anachronistic. Besides, if you wanted to get really pedantic, since Star Wars is set "a long time ago..." then it is the swords and medieval trappings that would be the anachronisms in the context of the ancient Star Wars blasters and spaceships.
roetroc 07-06-05, 08:25 PM	Cross-genre is not the same thing as anachronistic. Besides, if you wanted to get really pedantic, since Star Wars is set "a long time ago..." then it is the swords and medieval trappings that would be the anachronisms in the context of the ancient Star Wars blasters and spaceships. Well if "a long time ago" was say 600 years ago then swords and medieval trappings would not be anachronistic as they occur the same time period, hence they are not out of historical order.
weasel fierce 07-07-05, 12:43 AM	Well if "a long time ago" was say 600 years ago then swords and medieval trappings would not be anachronistic as they occur the same time period, hence they are not out of historical order. In our galaxy, nope, it'd fit right in.