"Broken" [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

"Broken" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PrinceAzar
05-21-05, 10:12 AM The terms "broken", or "cheesy" have been used on these boards many times-

I was wondering, what constitutes something as broken, and furthermore, some things are blatantly overpowered or broken, are there more subtle forms of brokenness out there?

And...are there general guidelines to determine if something is broken, or is it a "case by case" situation?

:cool:
Count Arioch the 28th
05-21-05, 10:26 AM It's not only case by case, but it differs from person to person.

I use the term to refer to anything that simply doesn't work in the system.

To give an example, the PrC Mage of the Arcane Order. It is a blatant wizard power-up, only requiring one spent feat and skill points in things wizards spend points in anyway. The only real drawback is the fact that the organization can boss teh wizard around.

So half of the time, the wizard is overpowered. The other half of the time, the player can't even participate because the wizard is teaching a class.

That is an example of what I call broken. Another example is the Dragon Disciple. that's different, because it does nothing well. It requires spellcasting, but doesn't affect it, giving only irrelevant bonuses. It gives bonuses to melee stats, but not really enough to make up for taking the class. Therefore, by my reasoning Dragon Disciple is also broken, but for being too poor, not too good.

Other people will have other means of reasoning.
Zachary The First
05-21-05, 10:35 AM I like the definition as anything that doesn't work in the system, but it can be further defined in the context of a specific campaign. For example, a munchie bringing in overpowered silliness in an otherwise regular-level game can also be "broken".
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-21-05, 11:58 AM Broken can also refer to things that can do one thing really sickeningly well, but suck at everything else. Like the Hulking Hurler build. Last I checked, it was hitting 2 or 3 trillion damage on average, but could be taken out by any wizard that could cast suggestion, or similar spells. (Hell, charm monster would likely work.)
Callista
05-21-05, 12:07 PM Dragon Disciple's not too weak, I don't think. What it does is force you to build your character carefully if you want to use it. If you're doing a wizard/fighter sort of combination, with spells to enhance melee combat, then dragon disciple is useful. Anything else, and it's just no good.

Fact is, you can't write all classes to be equally powerful. That would take a feat of balancing that no one can manage. There's always a range, with things on the low end (like the dragon disciple) and on the high end (like the Vow of Poverty feat). Those are the things that are called "broken".

And then there's just plain ridiculous munchkinism... like the Hulking Hurler build...
Disturbed1
05-21-05, 12:13 PM i dont think i can come up with any other definitions of "broken" that havnet been said already.....but what does the Vow of Poverty feat do and where is it? I know its something for a monk, and ive heard about it before, but i dont know where it is(asking so i can check it for the game im gettin rdy to start, nto so i can use it)
PrinceAzar
05-21-05, 12:34 PM Vow of Poverty is in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

I'm not sure how broken it is, since you must give up significant material wealth, but you get wierd things for following a vow of poverty, like:

No need to eat, drink, sleep(i think)
Resistances
Bonus to Natural Armor
True Seeing

and a bunch of other stuff
Draco Strang
05-21-05, 12:52 PM The Favored Soul class is a perfect example of what a broken class is.
DDogwood
05-21-05, 01:00 PM "Broken" usually means a DM who doesn't know how to deal with a situation.

If a DM is allowing unlimited Prestige Classing, that can be broken; if a DM allows a min/maxer to only enocunter situations which hes' maxed out for, that can be broken. But even Turn Undead can be "broken" in an adventure where the PCs only fight skeletons (and a Halfling Rogue with 8 strength and no bludgeoning weapons can be "gimped" in the same adventure).

Ultimately the DM runs any campaign, and is responsible for keeping the power in balance.
PurdueDave
05-21-05, 01:21 PM IMO, broken usually refers to something that is in the RAW and obviously needs an errata. A good example of this was divine metamagic (pre-errata) from Complete Divine. This is usually a single feat or class ability but can sometimes be applied to a combination of feats and class abilities.

Cheesy is usually not as "bad" as broken and usually would not require an errata. IMO, it's something that is OK unless a specific situation comes up and then it's almost impossible to fail. An example of this might be the almost astronimically high jump skill results a monk can obtain because of his speed.
Ogre4Hire
05-21-05, 03:15 PM The 3 things most often refered to as "broken" (at least by my unscientific account) are the Hulking Hurler PrC*, the Frienzied Berserker PrC, and the Spiked Chain.

*Note that some of the "brokenness" of this PrC only shows up when you make a character who's got so many different templates stacked onto him his LA would be in the 30s or 40s.
plvsman
05-21-05, 03:27 PM You know, and I know this is gonna dismay you, but different DM's have different ideas about terms like broken. My general thoughts on the subject is almost always a situation where a DM has houseruled something as okay that wasn't. But basically Broken to me is when you have a situation where one player has an ability that they can abuse freely. Or that might provide that player or his party with some all encompasing advantage that you(the dm) did not plan for.

For example, I recall a Great Role play character , he was a blind monk. The DM at the time thought, well okay, he's a blind monk, so he starts giving him stuff to counter his disability. one of the things he gave him was the grimlock blind sight ability. The ability to detect any enemies in a 20 radius. Seems simple enough. Then you start to play and you realize that he's immune to people hiding around corners and any simple illusions which by word of his mouth the party knows, is not their. I mean he could even point at someone/something hiding in the bushes that everyone else missed. And of course invisibility is useless against the party also with him around.

Mostly construction is about counterbalancing but broken thats when you toss something in you really can't balance out the other way or can and don't. if you're reading a book at the race stats say +1 level adjustment. thats because without a +1 level adjustment...that race would be broken.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-21-05, 06:31 PM *Note that some of the "brokenness" of this PrC only shows up when you make a character who's got so many different templates stacked onto him his LA would be in the 30s or 40s.
The Hulking Hurler Build is ECL 20.
Nidair
05-21-05, 07:07 PM if you're reading a book at the race stats say +1 level adjustment. thats because without a +1 level adjustment...that race would be broken.

Like the pandarens in the Warcraft D20 books? I know, the overall power lies a bit higher than D&D standards but even then the pandaren are annoyingly strong (stat increases without stat decreases, extra speed, and much nice qualities) for a +0 LA.
And I'll be quiet about nagas for that matter...
Count Arioch the 28th
05-21-05, 07:51 PM Dragon Disciple's not too weak, I don't think. What it does is force you to build your character carefully if you want to use it.

Any PrC that forces you to consider a "build" is a poor PrC. "Build" is not something that shoulc even exist in D&D.
Count Arioch the 28th
05-21-05, 07:52 PM Vow of Poverty is in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

I'm not sure how broken it is, since you must give up significant material wealth, but you get wierd things for following a vow of poverty, like:

No need to eat, drink, sleep(i think)
Resistances
Bonus to Natural Armor
True Seeing

and a bunch of other stuff

Vow of Poverty is broken when used with certain classes. Druid being the prime example. (People swear by monks, but I don't agree that it's even anything glaringly overpowered. anything a VoP monk does, a VoP druid can do much better.)
Inquisitor Ylodias
05-21-05, 10:03 PM As the player of a Dragon Disciple, I feel that I must set some things straight:

Another example is the Dragon Disciple. that's different, because it does nothing well. It requires spellcasting, but doesn't affect it, giving only irrelevant bonuses. It gives bonuses to melee stats, but not really enough to make up for taking the class. Therefore, by my reasoning Dragon Disciple is also broken, but for being too poor, not too good.
:noway:
Perhaps if you took straight sorcerer or bard, but anyone who was fit for the class would be a mix of a combat class and spontaneous arcane caster. The "irrelevant" bonuses add to your ability to cast your spells, and the melee enhancements (namely d12 hit die, mad strength bonuses, natural armor, etc.) are a great boost, and this is without the help of their blindsense and wings. Especially when combined with the feat Arcane Strike from the Complete Warrior, a Dragon Disciple is a terror inside and out of a melee. Heck, they're terrors inside and out of combat, since most will have a high Cha to boot!:D

Dragon Disciple's not too weak, I don't think. What it does is force you to build your character carefully if you want to use it. If you're doing a wizard/fighter sort of combination, with spells to enhance melee combat, then dragon disciple is useful.
You meant to say sorcerer/fighter; only classes that spontaneously cast meet the prerequisite. But that's the main idea, to make a fighter with spell ability and then give 'em a little extra power. :fight!: + :mage:

Any PrC that forces you to consider a "build" is a poor PrC. "Build" is not something that shoulc even exist in D&D.
This may come as a shocker, but before my DM got the Tome & Blood, my first exposure to the class, I already was well on my way to being one. I did not have to "build" into anything.
Edymnion
05-21-05, 10:27 PM Basically, "broken" is anything that is too powerful, or too weak.
Often it only comes out when it is combined with something else that the designers didn't think about or intend.

The Hulking Hurler bit LOOKS balanced, by itself. It gets +0 BAB over the entire course of the class, but gets +2 to Strength every level, meaning he winds up with a "psuedo" BAB progression, but never qualifies for feats or anything else with a BAB prereq.

However, it doesn't seem to have been considered for Epic Level play, where none of the classes get BAB, meaning it gets no drawbacks at all. Whoops! You throw in a bunch of feats from a dozen differant books, and it just gets worse.

Its what happens when you get a LOT of material published. No one can really check how what they make will interact with every possible combination of everything else printed, so sometimes there's a loophole that just makes it ungodly.

And, on the flipside, some things are just so poorly done as to not be up to par. I personally consider the Dragon Disciple to be one of these. Its the ONLY sorcerer specific PrC in the books, and it does NOTHING for the sorcerer. You're far better off being a fighter, barbarian, paladin, some kind of martial class that takes a one level dip into Sorcerer just so they could start taking the PrC. A PrC that only a spellcaster can qualify for, that has absolutely nothing to do with spellcasting, or anything that relates to spellcasting is essentially useless for spellcasters.

Of course, then you get things that are broken all by themselves when a player uses it creatively. Like Astral Projection.
Reinforcements
05-21-05, 10:51 PM If you haven't figured it out from the previous responses, Prince Azar, there is no hard-and-fast definition of "broken" and certainly no formula for determining brokeness. It's just a word that means "overpowered or underpowered" and can apply to anything, specific or general.
Edymnion
05-21-05, 11:16 PM Yeah, it always implies "In My Opinion" when its being used.
Whats broken to one person may be just fine to another.
J Milburn
05-22-05, 04:21 AM To give an example, the PrC Mage of the Arcane Order. It is a blatant wizard power-up, only requiring one spent feat and skill points in things wizards spend points in anyway. The only real drawback is the fact that the organization can boss teh wizard around.

Yes but the spell pool bonuses are from the 700gp initiation fee, the equivilant of a (damn good) magic item. Bonus feats are also lost, in exchange for the other things. The boss around is in exchange for the shelter and other bonuses in roleplay terms it provides, as with any guild.
IceFractal
05-22-05, 05:16 AM Incidentally, anything that uses an extrapolated progression with no upper limit has a big potential for being broken. The two most glaring examples are the Hulking Hurler (BTW, the HH doesn't give strength boni, that's the War Hulk, the HH simply lets you throw anything you can carry and a couple other tricks), which can deal billions of damage - and the H.I.V.E., which can cast spells as a millionth level Sorcerer with several hundred thousand Charisma. If these had a maximum cap, they probably wouldn't be broken.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PrinceAzar 05-21-05, 10:12 AM	The terms "broken", or "cheesy" have been used on these boards many times- I was wondering, what constitutes something as broken, and furthermore, some things are blatantly overpowered or broken, are there more subtle forms of brokenness out there? And...are there general guidelines to determine if something is broken, or is it a "case by case" situation? :cool:
Count Arioch the 28th 05-21-05, 10:26 AM	It's not only case by case, but it differs from person to person. I use the term to refer to anything that simply doesn't work in the system. To give an example, the PrC Mage of the Arcane Order. It is a blatant wizard power-up, only requiring one spent feat and skill points in things wizards spend points in anyway. The only real drawback is the fact that the organization can boss teh wizard around. So half of the time, the wizard is overpowered. The other half of the time, the player can't even participate because the wizard is teaching a class. That is an example of what I call broken. Another example is the Dragon Disciple. that's different, because it does nothing well. It requires spellcasting, but doesn't affect it, giving only irrelevant bonuses. It gives bonuses to melee stats, but not really enough to make up for taking the class. Therefore, by my reasoning Dragon Disciple is also broken, but for being too poor, not too good. Other people will have other means of reasoning.
Zachary The First 05-21-05, 10:35 AM	I like the definition as anything that doesn't work in the system, but it can be further defined in the context of a specific campaign. For example, a munchie bringing in overpowered silliness in an otherwise regular-level game can also be "broken".
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-21-05, 11:58 AM	Broken can also refer to things that can do one thing really sickeningly well, but suck at everything else. Like the Hulking Hurler build. Last I checked, it was hitting 2 or 3 trillion damage on average, but could be taken out by any wizard that could cast suggestion, or similar spells. (Hell, charm monster would likely work.)
Callista 05-21-05, 12:07 PM	Dragon Disciple's not too weak, I don't think. What it does is force you to build your character carefully if you want to use it. If you're doing a wizard/fighter sort of combination, with spells to enhance melee combat, then dragon disciple is useful. Anything else, and it's just no good. Fact is, you can't write all classes to be equally powerful. That would take a feat of balancing that no one can manage. There's always a range, with things on the low end (like the dragon disciple) and on the high end (like the Vow of Poverty feat). Those are the things that are called "broken". And then there's just plain ridiculous munchkinism... like the Hulking Hurler build...
Disturbed1 05-21-05, 12:13 PM	i dont think i can come up with any other definitions of "broken" that havnet been said already.....but what does the Vow of Poverty feat do and where is it? I know its something for a monk, and ive heard about it before, but i dont know where it is(asking so i can check it for the game im gettin rdy to start, nto so i can use it)
PrinceAzar 05-21-05, 12:34 PM	Vow of Poverty is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. I'm not sure how broken it is, since you must give up significant material wealth, but you get wierd things for following a vow of poverty, like: No need to eat, drink, sleep(i think) Resistances Bonus to Natural Armor True Seeing and a bunch of other stuff
Draco Strang 05-21-05, 12:52 PM	The Favored Soul class is a perfect example of what a broken class is.
DDogwood 05-21-05, 01:00 PM	"Broken" usually means a DM who doesn't know how to deal with a situation. If a DM is allowing unlimited Prestige Classing, that can be broken; if a DM allows a min/maxer to only enocunter situations which hes' maxed out for, that can be broken. But even Turn Undead can be "broken" in an adventure where the PCs only fight skeletons (and a Halfling Rogue with 8 strength and no bludgeoning weapons can be "gimped" in the same adventure). Ultimately the DM runs any campaign, and is responsible for keeping the power in balance.
PurdueDave 05-21-05, 01:21 PM	IMO, broken usually refers to something that is in the RAW and obviously needs an errata. A good example of this was divine metamagic (pre-errata) from Complete Divine. This is usually a single feat or class ability but can sometimes be applied to a combination of feats and class abilities. Cheesy is usually not as "bad" as broken and usually would not require an errata. IMO, it's something that is OK unless a specific situation comes up and then it's almost impossible to fail. An example of this might be the almost astronimically high jump skill results a monk can obtain because of his speed.
Ogre4Hire 05-21-05, 03:15 PM	The 3 things most often refered to as "broken" (at least by my unscientific account) are the Hulking Hurler PrC, the Frienzied Berserker PrC, and the Spiked Chain. Note that some of the "brokenness" of this PrC only shows up when you make a character who's got so many different templates stacked onto him his LA would be in the 30s or 40s.
plvsman 05-21-05, 03:27 PM	You know, and I know this is gonna dismay you, but different DM's have different ideas about terms like broken. My general thoughts on the subject is almost always a situation where a DM has houseruled something as okay that wasn't. But basically Broken to me is when you have a situation where one player has an ability that they can abuse freely. Or that might provide that player or his party with some all encompasing advantage that you(the dm) did not plan for. For example, I recall a Great Role play character , he was a blind monk. The DM at the time thought, well okay, he's a blind monk, so he starts giving him stuff to counter his disability. one of the things he gave him was the grimlock blind sight ability. The ability to detect any enemies in a 20 radius. Seems simple enough. Then you start to play and you realize that he's immune to people hiding around corners and any simple illusions which by word of his mouth the party knows, is not their. I mean he could even point at someone/something hiding in the bushes that everyone else missed. And of course invisibility is useless against the party also with him around. Mostly construction is about counterbalancing but broken thats when you toss something in you really can't balance out the other way or can and don't. if you're reading a book at the race stats say +1 level adjustment. thats because without a +1 level adjustment...that race would be broken.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-21-05, 06:31 PM	*Note that some of the "brokenness" of this PrC only shows up when you make a character who's got so many different templates stacked onto him his LA would be in the 30s or 40s. The Hulking Hurler Build is ECL 20.
Nidair 05-21-05, 07:07 PM	if you're reading a book at the race stats say +1 level adjustment. thats because without a +1 level adjustment...that race would be broken. Like the pandarens in the Warcraft D20 books? I know, the overall power lies a bit higher than D&D standards but even then the pandaren are annoyingly strong (stat increases without stat decreases, extra speed, and much nice qualities) for a +0 LA. And I'll be quiet about nagas for that matter...
Count Arioch the 28th 05-21-05, 07:51 PM	Dragon Disciple's not too weak, I don't think. What it does is force you to build your character carefully if you want to use it. Any PrC that forces you to consider a "build" is a poor PrC. "Build" is not something that shoulc even exist in D&D.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-21-05, 07:52 PM	Vow of Poverty is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. I'm not sure how broken it is, since you must give up significant material wealth, but you get wierd things for following a vow of poverty, like: No need to eat, drink, sleep(i think) Resistances Bonus to Natural Armor True Seeing and a bunch of other stuff Vow of Poverty is broken when used with certain classes. Druid being the prime example. (People swear by monks, but I don't agree that it's even anything glaringly overpowered. anything a VoP monk does, a VoP druid can do much better.)
Inquisitor Ylodias 05-21-05, 10:03 PM	As the player of a Dragon Disciple, I feel that I must set some things straight: Another example is the Dragon Disciple. that's different, because it does nothing well. It requires spellcasting, but doesn't affect it, giving only irrelevant bonuses. It gives bonuses to melee stats, but not really enough to make up for taking the class. Therefore, by my reasoning Dragon Disciple is also broken, but for being too poor, not too good. :noway: Perhaps if you took straight sorcerer or bard, but anyone who was fit for the class would be a mix of a combat class and spontaneous arcane caster. The "irrelevant" bonuses add to your ability to cast your spells, and the melee enhancements (namely d12 hit die, mad strength bonuses, natural armor, etc.) are a great boost, and this is without the help of their blindsense and wings. Especially when combined with the feat Arcane Strike from the Complete Warrior, a Dragon Disciple is a terror inside and out of a melee. Heck, they're terrors inside and out of combat, since most will have a high Cha to boot!:D Dragon Disciple's not too weak, I don't think. What it does is force you to build your character carefully if you want to use it. If you're doing a wizard/fighter sort of combination, with spells to enhance melee combat, then dragon disciple is useful. You meant to say sorcerer/fighter; only classes that spontaneously cast meet the prerequisite. But that's the main idea, to make a fighter with spell ability and then give 'em a little extra power. :fight!: + :mage: Any PrC that forces you to consider a "build" is a poor PrC. "Build" is not something that shoulc even exist in D&D. This may come as a shocker, but before my DM got the Tome & Blood, my first exposure to the class, I already was well on my way to being one. I did not have to "build" into anything.
Edymnion 05-21-05, 10:27 PM	Basically, "broken" is anything that is too powerful, or too weak. Often it only comes out when it is combined with something else that the designers didn't think about or intend. The Hulking Hurler bit LOOKS balanced, by itself. It gets +0 BAB over the entire course of the class, but gets +2 to Strength every level, meaning he winds up with a "psuedo" BAB progression, but never qualifies for feats or anything else with a BAB prereq. However, it doesn't seem to have been considered for Epic Level play, where none of the classes get BAB, meaning it gets no drawbacks at all. Whoops! You throw in a bunch of feats from a dozen differant books, and it just gets worse. Its what happens when you get a LOT of material published. No one can really check how what they make will interact with every possible combination of everything else printed, so sometimes there's a loophole that just makes it ungodly. And, on the flipside, some things are just so poorly done as to not be up to par. I personally consider the Dragon Disciple to be one of these. Its the ONLY sorcerer specific PrC in the books, and it does NOTHING for the sorcerer. You're far better off being a fighter, barbarian, paladin, some kind of martial class that takes a one level dip into Sorcerer just so they could start taking the PrC. A PrC that only a spellcaster can qualify for, that has absolutely nothing to do with spellcasting, or anything that relates to spellcasting is essentially useless for spellcasters. Of course, then you get things that are broken all by themselves when a player uses it creatively. Like Astral Projection.
Reinforcements 05-21-05, 10:51 PM	If you haven't figured it out from the previous responses, Prince Azar, there is no hard-and-fast definition of "broken" and certainly no formula for determining brokeness. It's just a word that means "overpowered or underpowered" and can apply to anything, specific or general.
Edymnion 05-21-05, 11:16 PM	Yeah, it always implies "In My Opinion" when its being used. Whats broken to one person may be just fine to another.
J Milburn 05-22-05, 04:21 AM	To give an example, the PrC Mage of the Arcane Order. It is a blatant wizard power-up, only requiring one spent feat and skill points in things wizards spend points in anyway. The only real drawback is the fact that the organization can boss teh wizard around. Yes but the spell pool bonuses are from the 700gp initiation fee, the equivilant of a (damn good) magic item. Bonus feats are also lost, in exchange for the other things. The boss around is in exchange for the shelter and other bonuses in roleplay terms it provides, as with any guild.
IceFractal 05-22-05, 05:16 AM	Incidentally, anything that uses an extrapolated progression with no upper limit has a big potential for being broken. The two most glaring examples are the Hulking Hurler (BTW, the HH doesn't give strength boni, that's the War Hulk, the HH simply lets you throw anything you can carry and a couple other tricks), which can deal billions of damage - and the H.I.V.E., which can cast spells as a millionth level Sorcerer with several hundred thousand Charisma. If these had a maximum cap, they probably wouldn't be broken.