Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathMagus 04-11-06, 11:44 PM	I remember maybe a year or so back, that I stumbled across a site that protested DMs who threw dragons in a cave and let their players walk in and kill them "just like that." This site offered extensive tactic pages for how each type of dragon, might defend itself from a party, thus making dragons a more "suitable" challenge. I remember the site had a professional-sounding name, like "Group for the fair and adequate representation of Dragons" - or something of the like. Anyone know the site I'm talking about and how to get to it? I can't remember enough detail to run a Google search...please help
Lord Gwydion 04-12-06, 01:08 AM	I don't know what site you're talking about, so I can't help you there. I don't know if you really need that site, though. Look through the entire description for dragons (and remember that a lot of stuff that is common to all dragons is printed before they even start mentioning the types of dragons), and look at all the special abilities they get. Quite a lot of them are defensive. Just remember to use all of these abilities as apropriate (for example, it should be really hard to surprise a dragon, with all of their sensory special abilities). Also, treat dragons like a BBEG, even if they aren't. Run them as a character, not just a souped up version of a Magical Beast. Think about the natural defenses of the dragon's lair, and what non-natural defenses they could install in addition to these. Give them minions/lackeys/flunkeys, or just guard beasts. Have them use any appropriate magic items they have in their treasure hoard. Little things like that. It takes a lot of organization and preparation, and requires you to think on your feet to run a dragon that way, but that's the kind of effort needed to make an encounter with a dragon memorable. Otherwise, it might as well just be an umber hulk or orc #3796. I'm sure other posters will give you even better advice than mine, and maybe even better than that site had. I'm kinda curious about the site, though. If you find it before someone else does, post the link to it, please! Never hurts to get new ideas from someone else. Slightly more off topic--in older editions, B/E/C/M/I for sure, and I think 1st Edition AD&D as well, dragons of all colors came in two types, those that could speak (and had spells), and those that couldn't talk (and had no spells). Basically, if a dragon talked, run it as an intelligent NPC. If it couldn't talk, it was just a big lizard with bad breath. In 3rd Edition, all dragons should be treated as NPCs, but some DMs still treat them like big lizards with bad breath.
Rumple_Cragstan 04-12-06, 01:17 AM	How can you say that something with the best stats in the game be called easy to kill? d12 HD, full BAB, all good saves, spells, high stats, breath weapons. When I say the word 'dragon' my players look at me with terrified faces. Anyone who claims that they're too easy to kill is running a game with PCs far too powerful for thier own goods.
Ma'ElKoth 04-12-06, 01:23 AM	In 3rd Edition, all dragons should be treated as NPCs White Dragons, or Ass Dragons as I like to call them, are really, really dumb. Think orc dumb. The peak of their tactical acumen should be flying around and using their breath weapon, maybe picking someone up and dropping them from a height.
Red_Rabbit 04-12-06, 01:23 AM	I think people say there easy to kill is because DM's probly don't use there spells and just resort to claw/claw/bite/tail or just breath weapon everything. When I use a dragon I use spells and hardly end up in Melee even when I'm in a cave. The Rabbit P.S. White Dragons maybe the Dumbest of all Dragons but they are still smarter than alot of PC adventurers and still clever enough to set a trap. Orc Int-8 White Dragon Wyrmling-6 Very Young-6 Young-6 Juvenile-8 Young Adult-10 Adult-12 Mature Adult-12 Old-12 Very Old-14 Ancient-14 Wyrm-14 Great Wyrm-18
StruckingFuggle 04-12-06, 01:33 AM	P.S. White Dragons maybe the Dumbest of all Dragons but they are still smarter than any PC adventurer Uhm, what? White Dragons, at their peak, by the book, have an intelligence of 18 int. MID-LEVEL wizards are, corely, smarter than them.
Lord Gwydion 04-12-06, 02:21 AM	White Dragons, or Ass Dragons as I like to call them, are really, really dumb. Think orc dumb. The peak of their tactical acumen should be flying around and using their breath weapon, maybe picking someone up and dropping them from a height. So? DMs should just run them as a slightly less intelligent NPC. Not as, to borrow the phrase, XP in handy lizard-shaped containers. Sure, white dragons might not have the best tactics in the world (especially when young), but that doesn't mean DMs shouldn't use all of their inherrent abilities when the PCs attack.
Red_Rabbit 04-12-06, 02:26 AM	Wizards focus on Intelligence. look at Fighters, Rogues (will have a good Intelligence probly), Clerics and all the other classes the average Intelligence is probly 14 for most PCs, and average NPC Intelligence is 10-11 so they really aren't Retarded or stupied just not Mad Scientist Intelligence is all I'm saying. The Rabbit P.S. Just cause you are smarter doesn't mean you will Win
Derren S. 04-12-06, 05:14 AM	You remember about BADD? (Bothered about disposable dragons). The site is http://baddragon2.tripod.com/ but it hasn't been updated since 4 years. What BADD was bothered about was not mechanical weak dragons, but about DMs who play dragons like morons/simply another monster encounter with an already predetermined outcome which still happens often.
CzarGarrett 04-12-06, 09:23 AM	Dragons are only 'too easy to kill' if the players are super powerful (30+ levels and well geared) or the DM played the Dragon like a retarded iguana.
celtredleg 04-12-06, 10:12 AM	Dragons are only 'too easy to kill' if the players are super powerful (30+ levels and well geared) or the DM played the Dragon like a retarded iguana. I went straight from 1ed to 3.5. My first game I showed up, and nobody else had played 3.5, or DMed before, so I got elected DM. I have always like diversity in a group, and for me the best and fastest way to learn a game is to find what breaks it, and then dont do that again. I had had someone describe savage species to me, but did not have a copy. So I let the players have a few monsterous PCs. It was the dragon fight where it died like a big lizard. Turns out I had ignored LA for the monsters, and the party was hugely overpowered for what I thought was thier level. Since then Dragons have gone back to being very rough encounters.
Licínio Miranda 04-12-06, 10:30 AM	I don't know where did I see that, maybe it was on the Monster Manual, but it says that someone with an inteligence of 16-17 is "very smart", and 18-19 it is considred "genius" and above that, "super-human". So, a White dragon may not be as smart as a Red Dragon, but it still a creature with a very, very high I.Q.. And with a godd wisdom, yes, they should be able to make excelent, I repeat, EXCELENT plans to fight enemies. Someone that reads the entry on the Monster Manual that a "white dragon is the least inteligent of the dragons" and think that they are just stupid beasts it is just wrong.
Bulletproof_Condom 04-12-06, 10:59 AM	You're only looking at one variable here, and you're only looking at the highest one they got. White Dragon Age Int CR wyrmling 6 2 very young 6 3 young 6 4 juvenile 8 6 young adult 8 8 adult 10 10 mature adult 12 12 old 12 15 very old 14 17 ancient 14 18 wyrm 14 19 great wyrm 18 21 18 Int at CR 21. So this epic dragon is as intelligent as a mid-level Wizard or Int-heavy mid-level Rogue. From what I've seen of epic play, by the time it gets that smart, it's probably still going to be the dumbest thing on the battlefield. Look at the CRs most people will encounter, particularly the adult. A CR 10 white dragon is only about as smart as your average person and average people do stupid things. It probably won't speak to the party except for maybe, just maybe, a "Don't kill me!" near the end. I mean, you don't try to speak Deer when you go hunting, do you? Most people are not brilliant tacticians, so neither should be most white dragons.
Pegasos989 04-12-06, 11:05 AM	Let's make this clear. Combat tactics are Wisdom. Int is ability to learn from books (be it spells, knowledges or whatever). Even if we assume INT is the same as tactics: Fighter/barbarian/etc. made by _ELITE_ array has propably STR 15, CON 14, DEX 13, WIS 12, CHA 10, int 8 or so. Sure, int might be 10 or even 12, but propably around 10. That fighter with int 8 can use his weapons and feats to make awesome combos. He knows how to flank, how to make teamwork, what weapons are best against what encounters, where to move to avoid ranged attacks, how to make an ambush... Those are all also things that dragons know. If dragon has int 8 it means he is poor casting spells and the like. That does not mean that he would not know how to use his abilities in combat! If int 8 fighter is given a powerful breath weapon, wings and decades of time to protect a cave, he will damn as hell be dropping huge boulders on the top pf everyone that enters. Your INT is propabable 12 at max. LEt's however assume that it would be 14 and you would be respected member of Mensa, etc. Any tactic that you could think of could also be thought of young adult or older, as their 1 or even 4 lower int can easily be covered with the fact that it has spent decades just thinking of the tactics. ALLWAYS play the int/wis 12-14 creatures the smartest you can as they could still come up with better plots. Assume the smart creatures to be able to identify their enemies' classes (which ones can take a lot of damage, etc.) and int 10 creature can any day realize that it should take the wizard down first. Int 6 creature realizes to take wizard down first, after the 1st or 2nd party's wizard throws a few nasty spells. I always hate how the int -2 races are found stupid. Cmon! You can play very cunning half orc with int -2 and when you see orcs or a god damn white dragon you are "Oh! That is stupid! Propably can't even use its abilities in combat!"
Bulletproof_Condom 04-12-06, 11:10 AM	Combat tactics are Wisdom. Then how come Combat Expertise requires an Int of 13? Seriously, if your interpretation works for you, that's great. But get off your high horse and stop thinking of your opinions as "correct."
Morrowner 04-12-06, 11:15 AM	People aren't asking that you run dragons as Clausewitz or Sun Tzu. They're just asking for reasonable tactics. What would be a reasonable tactic for a Mature Adult White Dragon you've got Intelligence 12 and Wisdom 13? You're smarter than the average bear. You use your abilities like Fog Cloud and Gust of Wind. You cover your turf in ice so you get home field advantage. You cast something like Mage Armor on yourself and have a go to tactic like having a minion cast alarm in your dojo so you can prep yourself with a potion of Haste and cast True Strike on yourself. You don't have to be a genius to come up with that. I'd consider myself to be Int and Wisdom 9-10 but I whipped up a fairly competent battle plan in under 5 minutes.
Pegasos989 04-12-06, 11:19 AM	Int is in some moves that are hard to learn, true. The PHB however says that "Wisdom represents common sense and the like." I find it common sense to use your breath weapon, natural attacks, flight, etc. in combat at appropriate times. Do you disagree with this? O.o
Bulletproof_Condom 04-12-06, 11:27 AM	Yeah. Combat tactics are not common sense. Otherwise things like boot camp and FBI training would be a lot shorter. People need to be taught these things.
Morrowner 04-12-06, 12:17 PM	Experience is the finest teacher. That Mature Adult White Dragon? He's about 300 years old. Thats a lot of time to gain combat smarts. And considering that White Dragons are chaotic evil hellraisers they'd catch a lot of heat from champions and adventuring parties. I'd hazard a guess and say to be realistic for every dragon your party fights the dragon has bested 3 parties or champions roughly equal to you.
OravennasBrother 04-12-06, 12:52 PM	Strangely, when I compare Dragons with other opponents of the same CR, the Dragon is generally FAR stronger. I find myself in agreement with the comment that creatures with both Int and Wis over 12 should be played as cleverly as possible. Despite the "Statistics" of 3d6 - the true distributions of intellect produce far fewer extremes than one genius (Int 18) in every 216 people. Few DM's will produce better tactics than one might expect from a competent monster with typical intellect. In fact, of the great tacticians of the twentieth century, none were a match intellectually for Enrico Fermi or Albert Einstein. I am NOT claiming they were fools, only that they were not at the level of "Genius" save perhaps in a very narrow definition of tactical ability. Finally Using in game requirements (Int 13 for Combat Expertise) to determine who might use tactical finesse seems a bit distorted. Wolves are noted for clever tactics, yet in the D&D scale they are far too unintelligent to rate the Combat Expertise feat.
ENHenry 04-12-06, 01:08 PM	I remember the B.A.D.D. web site quite well - I was a member! :) Some of you might not understand the original purpose of B.A.D.D. however. It's one thing to say, "A dragon is a tough opponent if played as smart." It's another, however, to actually give suggestions about said tactics, for poor harried DM's who really aren't that practiced with tactics for something that's 100 to 2000 years old and had centuries to learn its skills. You use your abilities like Fog Cloud and Gust of Wind. You cover your turf in ice so you get home field advantage. You cast something like Mage Armor on yourself and have a go to tactic like having a minion cast alarm in your dojo so you can prep yourself with a potion of Haste and cast True Strike on yourself. This is the kind of thing prevalent among the members of B.A.D.D. in the old days - putting to paper (or messageboard) a range of good tactics that a dragon could use just from what's "by the book" (the PHB or supplementary sources) to scare the bejeezus out of players and make them approach a dragon with sincerity and forethought. After all, the dragon's had hundreds of years of practice, and the only way to simulate this is through the aggregate knowledge of lots of DM's thinking about the same problem. Nowadays, B.A.D.D. has been superceded a bit by books like Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon, with feats, tactics, etc. being offered as a supplement to crafty play. However, I think in this day there still is a need for B.A.D.D. to help DM's with spell lists for old dragons, to come up with neat set-ups in a dragon's lair that max out the dragon's effectiveness, to offer neat motives for a dragon's appearance in a campaign, and other ways to make dragons memorable events rather than another kill. (And yes, the name of the group was an intentional jibe at Pat Pulling's old Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons organization from the late 1980's.) :D
Zherog 04-12-06, 02:05 PM	* makes a note to check out the site, since his players have recently decided to go dragon hunting * :smirk:
BarbJebez 04-12-06, 03:28 PM	Has nobody been paying attention to the "Tactics and Tips" articles recently? They've been running a series called "Tougher and Meaner Than You" that has so far covered Black (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060328a), Blue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060404a), and Green (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060411a) Dragons. While the articles are written as guides on what to expect when fighting them from an adventurer's point of view, there is also sidebar information from the dragon's POV on how to prepare.
ENHenry 04-12-06, 03:41 PM	Has nobody been paying attention to the "Tactics and Tips" articles recently? Nice! I don't visit the D&D main site on a regular basis, so I'd not heard this.
DeathMagus 04-12-06, 09:03 PM	The site is http://baddragon2.tripod.com/ but it hasn't been updated since 4 years. There we go! Exactly what I wanted - thanks ^_^
Raven Dark 04-12-06, 11:02 PM	I'm a member of B.A.D.Dragons. I even posted confessions on the site about when I killed my first dragon (as a DM, not as a player). Maybe you could find it. EDIT: Yep, I found it on the 3rd page of confessionals. I have copied the text below. Tuesday 06/04/2002 0:46:00am Name: Raven_Dark64 Homepage: http://None as of yet. E-Mail: raven_dark64@hotmail.com Comments: I was running the "Hysharr, Wyrm of the Lake" module off of the WoTC website. Hysharr, if my memory serves me correctly was an ADULT GREEN DRAGON who was poisoning the ecosystem in a lake. For the purposes of my campaign, it was a stretch of beach instead, and the green dragon (whose presense was not known to the public) was hurting the fishing business in Waterdeep by killing all the naturally occuring sea life for miles around. My players, a Human Rog1/Ftr4/Pirate Captain PrC5, a Half Elf Ftr1/Rgr2/Mnk7, a Half Elf Rog9 Cohort, and a Gnome Sor10, were all hired to find the cause of the problem and to solve it by very concerned, very rich merchants. After a week of researching the poisons in the water the party finally decided to check out the beach first hand. Once there, they saw nothing more then the usual green foamy acidic poison that had long been expected in the water by the city's citizens. They set off the dragon's alarm which came out in a FOG CLOUD to inspect the intruders of his territory. All the party saw was a white fog coming out of the water. Before anybody could react, the gnome launched a fireball at it (which did nothing due to SR)! The fire ate the fog to reveal the large dragon where a harmless cloud once was. The gnome was melted (just incapacitated really) in the first round. The dragon (being one of the poorer, more greedy variety) demanded the party's equipment and treasure in exchange for their lives (thinking that they would come back later for revenge carrying more treasure). The pirate captain tried to run away but was stopped when the dragon leaped in front of him (conveniantly putting the party in flanking positions) and threatened his life once more. The cohort rogue won initiative and tumbled underneath the GREEN DRAGON while yelling "NO DEAL!" and thrust into its gut with a +1 Icy Burst Rapier. She made a critical hit and doled out large amounts of sneak attack damage. The dragon took fifty points of damage which, in my campaign, qualifies for MASSIVE DAMAGE for ANY creature. I rolled a FORTITUDE save while telling my players that I would have to roll a one in order for the dragon to die from the shock of the blow. We all burst out laughing as it rolled the magic number. The dragon died in the first round by the first attack from one of our cohorts! Lessons Learned: 1) Use the varient rules for Massive Damage in the DM guide from now on. That dragon would have wiped everyone out if it hadn't died of shock. 2) Don't put a dragon in a bad situation such as getting himself surrounded by powerful adventurers. Man, my writing skill weren't nearly as capable then as they are today.
Dochenor 04-13-06, 12:59 AM	Dragons have very weak SLA for their CR, age, power and reputations. That should not mean that they are easy to kill. A mature adult dragon, with an Int of 10, 14 or 18, is still going to have experience. Do you think that your PC party is the first group of mere mortals to tackle this juggernaut of magical power? Unless I'm mistaken, dragons cast spells as Sorcerers not wizards, so why does a low Int affect their spell casting? When I GM a game, ALL the players fear the dragons. No matter their level, race, class or nifty toys they are carrying. Dragons are and should be the single most powerful race (by population) in the game.
StruckingFuggle 04-13-06, 02:46 AM	Has nobody been paying attention to the "Tactics and Tips" articles recently? They've been running a series called "Tougher and Meaner Than You" that has so far covered Black (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060328a), Blue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060404a), and Green (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060411a) Dragons. While the articles are written as guides on what to expect when fighting them from an adventurer's point of view, there is also sidebar information from the dragon's POV on how to prepare. I don't know if it's a good thing to say it HERE, but ... I didn't find the articles all that informative, really. :/
lokilowkey 04-13-06, 03:42 AM	hear hear Dochenor!! My players are also terrified of dragons. Even with appropriate equipment (I gave them an arrow of Green Dragon Slaying once, 2nd ed) they would not go near the forest, no matter what.
Shinryouga 04-13-06, 04:38 PM	It should be noted that the Design and Development team has admitted that dragon CRs are UNIQUE amongst the residents of the various Monster Manuals. Dragon CRs are based on the challenge of fighting said dragon under the following conditions: 1. Knowing what you're about to fight is a dragon! 2. Knowing what color it is! 3. Knowing what most of its defensive abilities are! 4. Knowing what most of its offensive abilities are! 5. Prepping yourselves appropriately based on what you know! Dragons met as "random" encounters should be very carefully run, as a dragon to an "unprepared" group is "effectively" about +3 to it's CR. Heck, I had a Cr 4 Wyrmling nearly TPK a 6th level party once. SIDE NOTE Combat Tactics is not a skill, and as such, it does not have a relevant ability score. (Said in joking manner, but still true.) I have players who ask to take Knowledge: Combat Tactics as a skill, and I say no. Not to nerf them, but because if they want to play up having learned these things, then do so in game, not as numbers on the sheet. Good tactics are self-rewarding in D&D. Its a simple equasion really: Good tactics = you die less, monsters die more. Just my two coppers.
Lord Gwydion 04-13-06, 07:59 PM	Just a quick note on the low Int = poor tactician debate. Hobgoblins, the tactically proficienty Humanoid race, have average Int (10) and below average Wis (9), yet they are known for being more battle-savvy than other races. Kobolds, known as devious little SOBs, have the same average scores (Int 10, Wis 9). Even Orcs (Int 8, Wis 7) are known to fight from a position of advantage, attacking in numbers or from ambush whenever possible. Not advanced or sophisticated tactics for sure, but still not dumb, either. So even a wyrmling White Dragon should be able to use some simple tactics in combat. ===== Next, a little clarification on my statement that all dragons should be run like NPCs. Dragons should be special creatures. They should have names, histories, and personalities, not just be random monsters to slaughter. Yes, any creature type could (some would say should) be developed like this. A simple Ogre, with a name, personality and reputation, is much more entertaining and rewarding for a party to encounter. Dragons are seen as the cream of the crop among monsters, so this holds doubly true for them. Going through a dungeon and having the DM say: "In the musty remains of what was once the castle's library, sitting on a pile of gold and books, is a green dragon." is not as satisfying as having him say: "In the musty remains of what was once the castle's library, sitting on a pile of gold and books, is Verextor the Sage, the dragon that killed the hero Sir Arthan Bello. You've heard she can be bargained with if you have something interesting to tell her." especially if you've been hearing tidbits about Verextor for a while before encountering her. In addition, the DM who actually writes up and runs Verextor as a character, not just another monster, will likely provide a more entertaining encounter than the DM that just has it be a generic dragon.