"Rules Lite" Combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Rules Lite" Combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Belegbeth
02-25-04, 02:12 AM My main frustration with 3.X DnD is the combat system. Everytime combat occurs you have to pull out the minitatures (or chess pieces, or lego figures, or whatever) and board, set things up, and spend an hour determining the outcome of a combat that lasts one minute in game time.

I for one am sick of the question: "Does doing X prompt an attack of opportunity?"

I am even more sick of having miniatures rammed down my throat. (Well, not literally, but as a requirement to play the game.)

In most respects the current version(s) of DnD are worlds better than 1st and 2nd editions. But one thing I liked about the old editions is that you could resolve combat quickly, and without miniatures. Consequently, the focus could be on ROLE-playing.

So, to conclude, are there any "lite" combat rules out there for d20 that could be integrated into DnD? :confused:

I would be SOOOO happy if there were! :D
Tenzhi
02-25-04, 03:49 AM Ignore AoO, Reach, and any feats associated with them.

Change spellcasting to a full-round action.

Throw any rule-exploiters to the lions.

That largely takes care of the combat headache in my experience.
Spongly
02-25-04, 05:27 AM As long as your willing to let your DM exercise a bit of judgement in combat, you don't need miniatures - you provoke attacks of opportunity when you do something that would, sensibly, provoke one - running past your enemies within their reach and so on. As long as the DM warns you before hand that you will provoke an AoO I see no problem with that. As for reach, you just have to know roughly where people are in relation to each other and play a bit fast and loose with exact differences.

I've never felt obliged to use miniatures and have never had any problem at all running combats.
q'afuu
02-25-04, 05:53 AM Originally posted by Spongly
I've never felt obliged to use miniatures and have never had any problem at all running combats. Dito.

And if a reasonably experienced player asks me if something provokes an AoO, the answer is always yes. If he asks, doing nothing provokes an AoO. Really, it's not that hard. You're not being a harsh DM if you expect your players to try and learn the rules they'll need to use often.
Tenzhi
02-25-04, 06:17 AM Originally posted by Spongly
you provoke attacks of opportunity when you do something that would, sensibly, provoke one

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement - which is why I see no need to have AoOs in the game at all. If one can concentrate a full attack against one individual whilst surrounded by 20 enemies without drawing any AoOs from any of those enemies, then comparatively simple actions such as moving past someone at your base speed should not sensibly provoke an AoO.
Belegbeth
02-25-04, 06:33 AM The apparent need for miniatures (exacerbated by the 3.5 rules changes) is only one reason why I find 3.x combat to be slow. It just seems that 3.x introduces so many variables and options into combat that it brings things to a grind. My complaint isn't with players who don't know the rules -- my complaint is with the number of rules.

I ran a 14 month campaign during my last year of graduate school two years ago, and it was great. But the one frustration I had was that my group only accomplished 50 precent of what I planned for any given session because of combat. Whenever it occured, our session turned into a mini-wargame. At first I thought the slowness was because we were not adequately familiar with the rules, but after 3 months I realized that it was just a slow system (at least compared to earlier editions).

Since I hope to start up a new campaign in the near future, I would like to find a quicker combat system. My job is intellectually draining enough; I don't need a rules heavy system as well. I just want to run sessions that emphasize role-playing, and where combat is both exciting and FAST.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestions, Tenzhi. :D They look good, and I will give the a try...
Geethree
02-25-04, 10:07 AM -Ignore initiative rolls. Your initiative becomes 10+init bonus, ties going to highest dexterity. This makes combat blend more smoothly into the game, instead of an awkward pause for rolling initiative.

-Have a summarized version of special combat actions (trip, disarm) for quick and easy reference.

-Have all appropriate modifiers already calculated. A player should know his +2 Longbow has a total of +8 to hit. This prevents stalling when people say, "So I got +2 enhancement, +3 dex, +2 BAB, +1 for Point Blank Shot,..."

-Approximate movement. Don't worry about moving exactly 30 ft (or 6 squares).

-Have each player pay close attention to combat. They should know what they want to do at the start of their turn. If necessary, give people 6 seconds (or other time limit) to decide or they automatically just do Total Defense.
Belegbeth
02-27-04, 08:19 AM Thanks for the suggestions, Geethree. I actually implemented the 3rd and 5th ones in my last campaign.

So, here are my plans for "stream-lined" combat:

1. Ignore AoO and Reach (and associated feats).

2. Change spellcasting to a full-round action.

3. Ignore initiative rolls (initiative = 10+init mod).

4. Approximate movement.

5. Give each PC 6 seconds to decide on action when it is his/her turn.

6. Have everyone come prepared (precalculate all likely modifiers ahead of time, for both PC's and NPC's).

Sounds viable? :cool:
Geethree
02-27-04, 10:18 AM Ignoring reach and AoO's discourages people from using reach weapons such as spears or glaives. Consider this when getting rid of the above rules. Personally, if AoO's were a problem, I'd just go through the list of things that provoke them and only keep the ones that make sense or you otherwise want to keep. In short, create a much smaller list than the one in the book.

Also, for the revised intiative rules, make sure you decide what side ties go to. Ties go to the monster or the hero (pick one) or flip a coin.

Another idea would be to group enemies. So, a group of monsters has a collective initative. These 4 orcs has initiative 12, these 4 have 8, etc. This makes combat go a little bit quicker and might make combat more strategic. Some enemies might attack in packs and this could reflect that (as well as save time).

Common sense in the place of some rules can also help combat. For instance, if an orc is holding a door closed and a halfling is trying to burst through, you could just say, "The orc holds steady." No dice rolling, move on. After all, the orc is a lot stronger than the halfling (presumably). I like to do this to make combat seem hectic and quick. So, if one tactic doesn't work, you have to try something else. It seems strange to me that, according to the rules, a hafling could keep pushing against a stronger foe and eventually win the strength check.
bingers
02-27-04, 10:32 AM yeah, forget the models and do it all in everybodies head, that's what our group used to do. The DM had evrything on a marker board which only he could see and if you wanted to go somewhere you told him where and he told you went you got there. nice and simple.

as for combat, you each picked a target and had at it. it didn't matter too much where you were because the creatures would be reasonably close anyway so you just nominated a target by description.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Belegbeth 02-25-04, 02:12 AM	My main frustration with 3.X DnD is the combat system. Everytime combat occurs you have to pull out the minitatures (or chess pieces, or lego figures, or whatever) and board, set things up, and spend an hour determining the outcome of a combat that lasts one minute in game time. I for one am sick of the question: "Does doing X prompt an attack of opportunity?" I am even more sick of having miniatures rammed down my throat. (Well, not literally, but as a requirement to play the game.) In most respects the current version(s) of DnD are worlds better than 1st and 2nd editions. But one thing I liked about the old editions is that you could resolve combat quickly, and without miniatures. Consequently, the focus could be on ROLE-playing. So, to conclude, are there any "lite" combat rules out there for d20 that could be integrated into DnD? :confused: I would be SOOOO happy if there were! :D
Tenzhi 02-25-04, 03:49 AM	Ignore AoO, Reach, and any feats associated with them. Change spellcasting to a full-round action. Throw any rule-exploiters to the lions. That largely takes care of the combat headache in my experience.
Spongly 02-25-04, 05:27 AM	As long as your willing to let your DM exercise a bit of judgement in combat, you don't need miniatures - you provoke attacks of opportunity when you do something that would, sensibly, provoke one - running past your enemies within their reach and so on. As long as the DM warns you before hand that you will provoke an AoO I see no problem with that. As for reach, you just have to know roughly where people are in relation to each other and play a bit fast and loose with exact differences. I've never felt obliged to use miniatures and have never had any problem at all running combats.
q'afuu 02-25-04, 05:53 AM	Originally posted by Spongly I've never felt obliged to use miniatures and have never had any problem at all running combats. Dito. And if a reasonably experienced player asks me if something provokes an AoO, the answer is always yes. If he asks, doing nothing provokes an AoO. Really, it's not that hard. You're not being a harsh DM if you expect your players to try and learn the rules they'll need to use often.
Tenzhi 02-25-04, 06:17 AM	Originally posted by Spongly you provoke attacks of opportunity when you do something that would, sensibly, provoke one I wholeheartedly agree with this statement - which is why I see no need to have AoOs in the game at all. If one can concentrate a full attack against one individual whilst surrounded by 20 enemies without drawing any AoOs from any of those enemies, then comparatively simple actions such as moving past someone at your base speed should not sensibly provoke an AoO.
Belegbeth 02-25-04, 06:33 AM	The apparent need for miniatures (exacerbated by the 3.5 rules changes) is only one reason why I find 3.x combat to be slow. It just seems that 3.x introduces so many variables and options into combat that it brings things to a grind. My complaint isn't with players who don't know the rules -- my complaint is with the number of rules. I ran a 14 month campaign during my last year of graduate school two years ago, and it was great. But the one frustration I had was that my group only accomplished 50 precent of what I planned for any given session because of combat. Whenever it occured, our session turned into a mini-wargame. At first I thought the slowness was because we were not adequately familiar with the rules, but after 3 months I realized that it was just a slow system (at least compared to earlier editions). Since I hope to start up a new campaign in the near future, I would like to find a quicker combat system. My job is intellectually draining enough; I don't need a rules heavy system as well. I just want to run sessions that emphasize role-playing, and where combat is both exciting and FAST. Anyway, thanks for your suggestions, Tenzhi. :D They look good, and I will give the a try...
Geethree 02-25-04, 10:07 AM	-Ignore initiative rolls. Your initiative becomes 10+init bonus, ties going to highest dexterity. This makes combat blend more smoothly into the game, instead of an awkward pause for rolling initiative. -Have a summarized version of special combat actions (trip, disarm) for quick and easy reference. -Have all appropriate modifiers already calculated. A player should know his +2 Longbow has a total of +8 to hit. This prevents stalling when people say, "So I got +2 enhancement, +3 dex, +2 BAB, +1 for Point Blank Shot,..." -Approximate movement. Don't worry about moving exactly 30 ft (or 6 squares). -Have each player pay close attention to combat. They should know what they want to do at the start of their turn. If necessary, give people 6 seconds (or other time limit) to decide or they automatically just do Total Defense.
Belegbeth 02-27-04, 08:19 AM	Thanks for the suggestions, Geethree. I actually implemented the 3rd and 5th ones in my last campaign. So, here are my plans for "stream-lined" combat: 1. Ignore AoO and Reach (and associated feats). 2. Change spellcasting to a full-round action. 3. Ignore initiative rolls (initiative = 10+init mod). 4. Approximate movement. 5. Give each PC 6 seconds to decide on action when it is his/her turn. 6. Have everyone come prepared (precalculate all likely modifiers ahead of time, for both PC's and NPC's). Sounds viable? :cool:
Geethree 02-27-04, 10:18 AM	Ignoring reach and AoO's discourages people from using reach weapons such as spears or glaives. Consider this when getting rid of the above rules. Personally, if AoO's were a problem, I'd just go through the list of things that provoke them and only keep the ones that make sense or you otherwise want to keep. In short, create a much smaller list than the one in the book. Also, for the revised intiative rules, make sure you decide what side ties go to. Ties go to the monster or the hero (pick one) or flip a coin. Another idea would be to group enemies. So, a group of monsters has a collective initative. These 4 orcs has initiative 12, these 4 have 8, etc. This makes combat go a little bit quicker and might make combat more strategic. Some enemies might attack in packs and this could reflect that (as well as save time). Common sense in the place of some rules can also help combat. For instance, if an orc is holding a door closed and a halfling is trying to burst through, you could just say, "The orc holds steady." No dice rolling, move on. After all, the orc is a lot stronger than the halfling (presumably). I like to do this to make combat seem hectic and quick. So, if one tactic doesn't work, you have to try something else. It seems strange to me that, according to the rules, a hafling could keep pushing against a stronger foe and eventually win the strength check.
bingers 02-27-04, 10:32 AM	yeah, forget the models and do it all in everybodies head, that's what our group used to do. The DM had evrything on a marker board which only he could see and if you wanted to go somewhere you told him where and he told you went you got there. nice and simple. as for combat, you each picked a target and had at it. it didn't matter too much where you were because the creatures would be reasonably close anyway so you just nominated a target by description.