Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bort333 03-13-04, 03:26 PM	Uh when you sacrfice something as part of the compotent of a Sanctified spell.... are they peremeant? Or are you allowed to heal it with things like restoration?
GoodTeletubby 03-13-04, 08:37 PM	you can heal it normally no problem though if you want to roleplay it property you won't heal it right away, but that's just an opinion
Bort333 03-14-04, 02:11 AM	So would you get it back 1 ability point per day as normal? Or would you have to use restorations?
Ulden Throatbane 03-14-04, 03:16 AM	All depends on the description of the sacrifice cost -if it says damage, its temporary. -if it says drain, its permanent (ie you need restoration to get the points back)
Lysen_Gaiden 03-22-04, 12:12 PM	Most of the damage of the sacrific is strength damage, which is just like when you get hit by a Shadow, or something else that does ability damage. You can use spells to heal it, or heal it naturaly. If its drain, the only way to heal it is naturaly. Some cause you to sacrific a level. Depending on the DM, they may allow you to heal that with magic, they may not. SOme spells say you sacrifice your self (ie death) if your True Ressurected, you dont loose the level, if you ar raised or ressurected, you do. One kills you, then raises you (-1 level). If you loose levels becasue of rasiing/ressurection, it of course cant be returned.
Artoomis 03-24-04, 07:26 PM	Originally posted by Lysen_Gaiden Most of the damage of the sacrific is strength damage, which is just like when you get hit by a Shadow, or something else that does ability damage. You can use spells to heal it, or heal it naturaly. If its drain, the only way to heal it is naturaly... Unless I am misaken, the only way to recover an ability drain is with magic.
Lysen_Gaiden 03-25-04, 12:19 AM	Originally posted by Artoomis Unless I am misaken, the only way to recover an ability drain is with magic. woops, yah, thats what I meant. Thats what happens when you post after a full day of doing other junk. THanks for pointing the error out though. :)
wdarkk 03-25-04, 12:56 PM	Can you use Greater Restoration to get back character levels you sacrifice? I'd imagine you can, but I'm not sure.
Lysen_Gaiden 03-25-04, 01:02 PM	Originally posted by wdarkk Can you use Greater Restoration to get back character levels you sacrifice? I'd imagine you can, but I'm not sure. You probably could, except for of course if you die and are Ressurected or Raised. But then, whats the purpose? One of the things behind the Sacrifice, is that its a Sacrific. What good is a sacrific if you fix it right away? Is casting a sacfrifical spell, and then healing the sacrifics truely Exalted?
wdarkk 03-25-04, 01:05 PM	Technically you don't have to be Exalted to cast an Exalted spell. One could also argue that it helps you cast Exalted spells that are very powerful more often, but that might be over-justification.
Lysen_Gaiden 03-25-04, 01:15 PM	True, you dont have to be exalted, though yo do have to be good or neutral,a nd as a DM, id say you would, by simply casting the spell, change from a neutral alighnment to good, simply by the definition of Sanctified magic. 'For those willing to devote them selves to good, great power awaits in the form of sanctiofied magic. These spells require a great sacrifice from the caster in exchange for powerful spells' What I am trying to get at, is that a person casting a Sanctified spell, wouldnt think about using spells to get stuff back. Why? becasue its a Sacrifice. Sure, theres nothing saying you cant cast a spell, and then hit yourself with a lesser restoration. THe letter of the rules allow that, but the Spirit, and isnt that what this whole book is about, is no. You dont do that. Its not right.
wdarkk 03-25-04, 02:18 PM	I'm not doing it to "get something", I'm doing it so that I can use Sanctify the Wicked to provide a non-lethal permanent solution to certain evils.
Lysen_Gaiden 03-25-04, 02:30 PM	dont you think that the Sacrific of a level is worth taking a great evil out of the picture? I guess what Im getting at, is, if the person who casts the spell, can just Lesser Restore, Greater Restore or Restore his or her stats, then where is the sacrifice? Oh, I loose X for a round or two. Woopty doo. Sacrifice, to me, comes with some form of selflessness. At least to me, Santified spell has a bit of selflessness to it.
wdarkk 03-25-04, 05:14 PM	The problem is that the character level sacrifice makes spells with it almost unusable unless you use GR. Ability damage can return over time, so I probably wouldn't use a LR right away, drain would get a restoration after awhile, but character levels need reversal since they take away spell level access making themselves uncastable rapidly. In order to use Sanctify the Wicked more than once a month you need to restore yourself.
Crossover-Chronicler 03-25-04, 05:18 PM	Originally posted by Lysen_Gaiden What I am trying to get at, is that a person casting a Sanctified spell, wouldnt think about using spells to get stuff back. Why? becasue its a Sacrifice. Sure, theres nothing saying you cant cast a spell, and then hit yourself with a lesser restoration. THe letter of the rules allow that, but the Spirit, and isnt that what this whole book is about, is no. You dont do that. Its not right. I disagree. I think that if a cleric bothers to manifest an armblade of the sword archon, one of the first things on his mind is going to be restoring his strength so that he can stab demons with it.
wdarkk 03-25-04, 08:37 PM	Where's bitnine? He seems drawn to discussions of "what is good?".
Lysen_Gaiden 03-25-04, 09:23 PM	Originally posted by Crossover-Chronicler I disagree. I think that if a cleric bothers to manifest an armblade of the sword archon, one of the first things on his mind is going to be restoring his strength so that he can stab demons with it. You dont take the sacrifice damage until the spell is over. So there is no reason for him to heal damage that has not taken effect yet.
Crossover-Chronicler 03-25-04, 09:38 PM	Originally posted by Lysen_Gaiden You dont take the sacrifice damage until the spell is over. So there is no reason for him to heal damage that has not taken effect yet. Even so, a militant character in a dangerous situation isn't going to walk around with impaired abilities "because it's a sacrifice." I don't see it as "against the spirit of the rules" to heal any form of damage, regardless of its origins.
Crossover-Chronicler 03-25-04, 09:39 PM	double post
wdarkk 03-25-04, 09:59 PM	Looking over Sanctify the Wicked, I'm not very sure when it would apply the character level. The REALLY funny thing is that if you cast it a whole bunch and then the duration ended on all of them, you could DIE and become UNDEAD, since you died due to level loss, depending on interpretation. The other really funny thing to do with Sanctify the Wicked is reuse of diamonds. By the RAW, Mending will fix them since they weigh less than 1 pound and it can fix things that are very broken.
Lysen_Gaiden 03-25-04, 10:13 PM	Originally posted by Crossover-Chronicler Even so, a militant character in a dangerous situation isn't going to walk around with impaired abilities "because it's a sacrifice." I don't see it as "against the spirit of the rules" to heal any form of damage, regardless of its origins. On of the first examples of a sacrific is the Eye of Grumsh. You poke your eye out, and you get special powers. If you regain use of both eyes, you loose your powers. A Sacrifice has to mean something, or its not realy a sacrifice. But, you are right. Nothing says that you can not heal the ability damage. So its up to the DM, myself, I would rule that if you intend to 'fake-sacrifice' (ie heal the damage after casting the spell) then, the spell wont work. THat, or simply make it that the damage/drain/loss simply can not be recovered magicaly, that it has to come abck naturaly.
Crossover-Chronicler 03-25-04, 10:54 PM	Originally posted by Lysen_Gaiden On of the first examples of a sacrific is the Eye of Grumsh. You poke your eye out, and you get special powers. If you regain use of both eyes, you loose your powers. I could list several reasons why that is different: It is a Prestige Class requirement, not a spell component; if you lose a Prestige Class requirement, you lose the benefits of the class. That does not necessarily have anything to do with the spirit of "sacrfice." The loss of abilities is explicitly stated in that case. The abilities are lost when the eye is healed, not because you consider the option of healing the eye. The loss of the eye presents no real statistical disadvantage. The Eye of Gruumsh is at best "non-good," and is therefore a poor example for themes of exalted sacrifice.A Sacrifice has to mean something, or its not realy a sacrifice.Sure it is. If a vampire enertgy drains a PC, the vampire keeps the temporary hit points even if the PC gains the benefits of a restoration spell. The energy is still expended, even if it is subsequently replenished, and I can't see the ultimate in good spells demanding that their casters continue to suffer. Besides which, "meaning" and "persistent injury" are not the same thing.But, you are right. Nothing says that you can not heal the ability damage. So its up to the DM, myself, I would rule that if you intend to 'fake-sacrifice' (ie heal the damage after casting the spell) then, the spell wont work. THat, or simply make it that the damage/drain/loss simply can not be recovered magicaly, that it has to come abck naturaly.Since when can drain heal naturally at all? AFAIK, the only way to restore those lost abilities is magic.
wdarkk 03-25-04, 11:05 PM	Somehow I doubt the Powers of Good disapprove of an idea that harms no-one but increases the amount of Sanctify the Wicked spells cast, since it makes a large-scale positive difference in the world with no negative aspects.
Lysen_Gaiden 03-25-04, 11:22 PM	Just becasue its not 'exaulted' or even 'good' does not make it invalde. A sacrifice is a sacrifice. Wether its money, an eye, or an ability. Look up the definitions of Sacrifice one of these days. The letter of the rules do not say you cant heal it, as Ive said, and if you want to go letter of the rule, go for it. Ive alreayd said my say about Sacrifices though. I know what the word means, From a Dictonary: sacrifice: Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim. Forfiture. Not "give and take back" Its a spiorit of the thing. someone who sacrifices something shouldnt think about such things. Sure, maybe the Neutral character will, but a good and exalted. They'd touch it out. Why? becasue to do other wise woudl lessen the Sacrifice.
wdarkk 03-25-04, 11:45 PM	It's forfeited. Restoration merely supplies Positive Energy to make up for it. It's still a sacrifice. It's like a friar who donated his meager worldly possessions to the church receiving free meals and housing. Sure he's as well off as he was before, but it doesn't truly negate or invalidate the first sacrifice.
Ulden Throatbane 03-29-04, 08:20 PM	Your making it sound as though the sacrifice is more important than what the caster was trying to accomplish with the spell. Furthermore, failing to take care of the cost your character incured from casting the spell simply because its "not right for your idium" (as Sir Lancelot would say) is selfish, because you are less capable of confronting future challenges, thus recklessly endangering the lives of those you are supposed to protect. There is nothing in the BoED supports your interpretation of what a sacrifice cost is. A short-term sacrifice is still a sacrifice. Heck, the sacrifice cost for exalted fury states explicitly that your character can be raised and ressurected normally. The sacrifice is a balancing cost, as it keeps clerics and exalted arcanists from being trigger-happy with their Hammers of Rightousness. For the Eye of Gruumsh, the symbolism of the sacrifice is what's important, not the actual penalties incured for losing an eye (none). And if you are going to use a stringent interpretation of 'sacrifice cost', then I strongly recommend increasing the power level of all the sanctified spells, because they won't be used otherwise.
Crossover-Chronicler 04-01-04, 02:02 PM	Originally posted by Lysen_Gaiden Just becasue its not 'exaulted' or even 'good' does not make it invalde. A sacrifice is a sacrifice. Wether its money, an eye, or an ability.Kudos on ignoring the rest of my arguments. It's still negated because it is a Prestige Class Prerequisite. The rules in no place state "an Eye of Gruumsh who regrows that eye loses all benefits of the class because it trivializes teh scrifice." Instead, like any other Prestige Class prerequisite, you lose the benefits of the class if you lose the prerequisite. Gruumsh's choice to withdraw his blessings from Eyes of Gruumsh who get the eye restored does not necessarily in any way raflect on the ideals of sacrifice embodied in Sanctified spells.The letter of the rules do not say you cant heal it, as Ive said, and if you want to go letter of the rule, go for it.That is fine. But IMO, there is no aspect of teh rules' "spirit" that prohibits that.From a Dictonary: sacrifice: Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim. Forfiture. Not "give and take back" If I'm making a sacrifice and I offer up my best goat, nothing prevents me from buying a new goat, and I would personally view any deity who was affonted by such a purpose as rather silly.Its a spiorit of the thing. someone who sacrifices something shouldnt think about such things.Why not?Sure, maybe the Neutral character will, but a good and exalted. They'd touch it out. Why? becasue to do other wise woudl lessen the Sacrifice. Why is the sacrfuce lessened? the price was still paid, and the PC does not take the ability points or lost levels back from the spell; he effectively "replaces" them (see the goat analogy). The price is still paid, even if you go about recouping your losses. And I personally don't see good (even exalted good) as idealistic to the point of stupidity.
Lysen_Gaiden 04-01-04, 02:23 PM	Okay, then, heres a question for you all. Why the heck even Have a sacrifice, why say "you take X" when heck, less than a second later your compatriote with his wand of restorative spells can just go "oh, here, have it back." pop? Loose a level becsaue of a Sanctified spell POP. Ohh, I realy feel that I have Sacrfificed something for good. A weak feeling for what, 2 seconds? Its like Tithing. Typical Tithing is 10% of all increase. SO I make 200 dollars, and tithe 20 dollars. I make 1000, i tithe 100. I file taxes, using my tithing as charity (which you can do) and I get back 300 dollars, I tithe 30. TIthing is a sacrifice of a portion of your money, ie you dont get it back. Sure, you can make more money, but you still sacrifice a portion of that. But, since this is moot, and people would rather ignore the spirt, ans simply goe by the word, then go right a head. THat is your game after all. Just wait till you have the Cleric who casts several Santify the Wickeds in a row, with his buddy casting restorative spells so that the cleric doesnt loose level one. Or the character who casts Pheonix Fire, is True Ressurected before the spell brings them back, and then does it agin, beause, oh, theres no rule saying that you can not. Hmmmm....
Artoomis 04-01-04, 03:24 PM	A sacrifice is a sacrifice, even if you use magic to restore it - in which case you have sacrificed some party asset for the restoration. Still a sacrifice. As for the level loss - I'm not entirely sure that it is restorable. The ability drains, ability damage and even death are handled by the rules already as far as remedies. Voluntary level loss is not. Restoration: "...and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained..." The level that was sacrificed was most certainly not "drained," thus cannot be restored. Now that's a sacrifice.
Pauper 04-01-04, 07:48 PM	Originally posted by wdarkk Looking over Sanctify the Wicked, I'm not very sure when it would apply the character level. The 'sacrifice' is listed among the components, thus it must be fulfilled before the spell can be cast, just as a more typical XP component would be. This also means that if the spell is countered or otherwise negated (such as by the target making its Will save or the caster failing a caster level check versus the target's spell resistance), the level is still lost. [So usually this means you'll only be casting the spell on willing targets who can lower their SR and voluntarily fail the save.] The other really funny thing to do with Sanctify the Wicked is reuse of diamonds. By the RAW, Mending will fix them since they weigh less than 1 pound and it can fix things that are very broken. I don't see how this is possible, since the diamond shatters upon completion of the spell, regardless of how the spell is completed. And, by the RAW (rules as written?), mending can't be used to repair the gem, since mending doesn't repair crystalline objects - just metallic objects with a single break or wood/ceramic objects with multiple breaks. (One could argue, using the text of major creation that a crystalline object is equivalent to a metal object, but even then a shattered gem clearly has more than one break.) A DM could also rule that shattering the gem is the equivalent of grinding it to powder, which would also make the gem unrepairable by the make whole spell. As for restoring the level loss via restoration, I'd probably rule that it would cause the gem to shatter prematurely - removing the sacrifice (which is a component of the spell, after all) would be the functional equivalent of removing any other component of the spell, IMO, and would cause the spell to fail. One could certainly argue the merits of the ruling (does that also mean you have to verbally chant for the entire year as well?), but given the spell's text and the intent of the sacrifice cost, I think such a ruling is defensible. Once the spell has run its course and the target has been redeemed or set free, the level loss would be recoverable without penalty. -- Pauper
Dartanel 04-01-04, 08:02 PM	Pauper, reread page 83. In the case of Sanctify the Wicked, the caster would not lose the level until the point at which the gem is shattered, for good or ill.
Artoomis 04-01-04, 08:45 PM	Originally posted by Pauper The 'sacrifice' is listed among the components, thus it must be fulfilled before the spell can be cast, just as a more typical XP component would be. ... As for restoring the level loss via restoration,... -- Pauper 1. The actual result of a sacrifice (the level loss, whatever) occurs at the end of the spell's duration (it's in the book!.) 2. Restoration will not restore a sacrificed level - it's not been drained, so can't be restored.
Crossover-Chronicler 04-01-04, 09:53 PM	Originally posted by Lysen_Gaiden Okay, then, heres a question for you all. Why the heck even Have a sacrifice, why say "you take X" when heck, less than a second later your compatriote with his wand of restorative spells can just go "oh, here, have it back." pop? Loose a level becsaue of a Sanctified spell POP. Ohh, I realy feel that I have Sacrfificed something for good. A weak feeling for what, 2 seconds?Any of several reasons: the came reason Corrupt spells have a corruption cost; it's a balancing factor for these broadly available, extremely-aligned spells. Flavor The same reason there are Verbal, Somatic, Material, and XP components.Its like Tithing. Typical Tithing is 10% of all increase. SO I make 200 dollars, and tithe 20 dollars. I make 1000, i tithe 100. I file taxes, using my tithing as charity (which you can do) and I get back 300 dollars, I tithe 30. TIthing is a sacrifice of a portion of your money, ie you dont get it back. Sure, you can make more money, but you still sacrifice a portion of that.Actually, it isn't. Tithing is a donation made again and again, not a situational "one-time" sacrifice. Also, at no point does a PC "take back" traits from the spell any more than an ability-drained PC "takes back" ability scores from the undead that drained them.But, since this is moot, and people would rather ignore the spirt, ans simply goe by the word, then go right a head. THat is your game after all. Just wait till you have the Cleric who casts several Santify the Wickeds in a row, with his buddy casting restorative spells so that the cleric doesnt loose level one.Again, you're only looking at the parts of the post that are convenient. I don't think the "spirit of the rules" - that is, what was intended by the rules when they were envisioned - demands that exalted characters foregoe restorative measures.Or the character who casts Pheonix Fire, is True Ressurected before the spell brings them back, and then does it agin, beause, oh, theres no rule saying that you can not. Hmmmm....First off "Hmmmm...." really isn't a moving logical argument. Neither is picking the one example in which the rules do demand that the sacrifice be permanent. From Book of Exalted deeds p.104: "Your death and the level you lose when you return to life are the sacrifice cost for this spell."
wdarkk 04-01-04, 09:59 PM	You could interpret the "restoring the creature to the highest level it had previously attained" part of Greater Restoration to reverse the sacrifice cost. You could not interpret it to reverse XP cost payment, since you can't pay enough XP to go down a level.
Artoomis 04-02-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk You could interpret the "restoring the creature to the highest level it had previously attained" part of Greater Restoration to reverse the sacrifice cost... Nope. .... This effect also reverses level drains by a force or creature, restoring the creature to the highest level it had previously attained. Voluntary level loss is most certainly not the same as a level drain by a force or creature.
wdarkk 04-02-04, 01:28 AM	Dang. I guess they were right when they called the sacrifice-level spells "totally useless". This is definitely the worst of them. You can use it with the Archmage High Arcana Spell-like Ability though, since it doesn't have an XP cost, and the High Arcana specifically removes all components other than XP components. Still, it's horrifically weak. A hack and slasher compares it to all the other SoD spells and passes, and an RPer would be disgusted by using a spell to permanently change foe alignments. It's only possible advantage is the fact that it works on things immune to death effects.
Artoomis 04-02-04, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk ...You can use it with the Archmage High Arcana Spell-like Ability though, since it doesn't have an XP cost, and the High Arcana specifically removes all components other than XP components... I would never allow that. The sacrifice "components" are special and postdate the special abiliteis or even EPIC feats where you can cast without spell components. I put them in the same category as XP xost.