Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Capn Charlie 02-08-04, 09:05 AM	Has anyone seen the promos on network television here lately? They are referring to that whackjob that kidnapped and held girls in his basement as "Dungeon Master". Is it just me, or can this be a very, very, bad thing? Does anyone know if they are just using this as a pop culture reference, or as an actual accusation? Anyone know if this deep fried nutball has any dnd ties that could send the last decade of PR down the crapper? Can Wiz/Bro sue? Should they?
plushdementor 02-08-04, 09:14 AM	Hey... kind of out of the loop here... do you have any links to the newstories?
Capn Charlie 02-08-04, 09:19 AM	No, just saw the promo on tv. It is however a New and disturBing Crime. If you get my drift... I am unsure of the policy for stating such things about opposing(?) corporations.
Capn Charlie 02-08-04, 09:27 AM	However I am sure that this here link (http://www.msnbc.com/onair/default.asp?program=Dateline%20NBC) is ok. Bottom. In a network television exclusive, Dateline NBC Correspondent Rob Stafford interviews John Jamelske, the man known as the ”Dungeon Master.” His victims claim that over a period of fifteen years, Jamelske secretly imprisoned them in a makeshift dungeon on his property, holding them for months or years as his sexual slaves.
p0cky 02-08-04, 10:12 AM	I do not think that has anything to do with DnD. He just called him self "Dungeon Master", for he was the master of his dungeon. If there were dragons, then I would be worried (not about the story, about there being dragons.)
SputnikCorp 02-08-04, 10:35 AM	maybe he was a gamer. the cops saw D&D paraphenelia littered throughout his home. bad people do play this game, you know.
Capn Charlie 02-08-04, 11:10 AM	Oh, I am not saying no bad people play the game. But me for instance, when I finally snap I plan on selling all my dnd stuff buying pokemon and leaving a note saying "The power of our dark lord pikachu compelled me to..." No, seriously, I think it is just using dnd as a pop culture reference. At least that is what I hope. It would be a shame if the new policy is bringing about raids on people because "they have DEP"(dice of evil purpose) It would be a real hassle to have to go through another decade of hardcore anti dnd propoganda.
SputnikCorp 02-08-04, 11:24 AM	i don't think the "witchhunts" are going to plague D&D again. our culture has become so submissive and decadent, i don't think it matters, those that do cry out against D&D will always be there. it's there right.
Capn Charlie 02-08-04, 11:37 AM	That is both debateable and neither "here" nor "there". Perhaps another time... Hey WizOs heard anything from on high? Any press release?
Luris_Blear 02-08-04, 12:38 PM	Well, first this seems like a thin line to walk on anyway, given the CoC. But if we're worried, then the best advice is just to be open about it. Remind people that it's just a game, and that the way it should be played emphasizes teamwork and problem solving - not violence. (IE, you get the same "reward" for walking past a sleeping minotaur as you do for hacking it to tiny pieces.) The words "like anything else, some people just take it too far" help. Being open, placing emphasis on the good, and drawing common ground between yourself and whoever is speaking to you are always good ways to communicate any idea.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 02-08-04, 02:15 PM	I'm familiar with the actual events that this is based on, and it has absolutely nothing to do with D&D. People in the BDSM community have used the term Dungeon Master or Dungeon Mistress to refer to someone who runs a BDSM hangout for a long time, probably longer than D&D has been around. It's just a coincidence that the TSR guys called the game master a DM; they probably didn't know about the "real" Dungeon Masters out there. And the sicko who kidnapped and raped girls in his basement probably had no idea what a gamer DM was.
green_yawgmoth 02-09-04, 02:05 AM	Originally posted by Capn Charlie "The power of our dark lord pikachu compelled me to..." I want this on a t-shirt. A black one. :cool:
eclipticavatar 02-09-04, 02:13 AM	We live in an age where controversy sells.
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-09-04, 02:34 AM	They called him a Dungeon Master because he had a dungeon and NBC always needs to have a stupid little name for news segments: Tales of the x, Ride with the x, Call from the x. Watch Dateline long enough and you're see the formula.
MadBlue 02-09-04, 04:01 AM	Here (http://search.looksmart.com/p/browse/us1/eus317916/us147927/us269889/us326550/us10173550/us10173549/) are some related articles. The guy is a 68 year old handyman. There's no mention of any D&D related materials. The guy kept girls and women as sex slaves, chained to a wall in an underground concrete bunker. One of the victims referred to the bunker as a "dungeon", so it probably stemmed from that. I think it's a coincidence. "Dungeon Master" is a pretty appropriate name as people hearing it would probably already have the notion of someone keeping prisoners in a dungeon, as opposed to someone running a role-playing game. Of course, those who are already paranoid about D&D will pick up on that and start making baseless associations, but the gaming community has weathered worse. And especially now that it's pretty much mainstream, the hobby isn't going to be affected by something like this. MadBlue
MadBlue 02-09-04, 04:09 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland They called him a Dungeon Master because he had a dungeon and NBC always needs to have a stupid little name for news segments: Tales of the x, Ride with the x, Call from the x. Watch Dateline long enough and you're see the formula. It's funny how the networks sometimes seem to battle for a name. "Shoe Bomber", "Shoe-nibomber" and "Sneaker Bomber" were names three different networks used to refer to Richard Reid when the story first aired. MadBlue
Kaya Kenobi 02-09-04, 04:11 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland They called him a Dungeon Master because he had a dungeon and NBC always needs to have a stupid little name for news segments: Tales of the x, Ride with the x, Call from the x. Watch Dateline long enough and you're see the formula. heh.. True enough
Sweet Steph 02-09-04, 04:24 AM	Originally posted by Capn Charlie Can Wiz/Bro sue? What could they sue for? I don't believe that the term Dungeon Master is protected by copyright. They could try to sue for defamation, but this wouldn't likely work well. The notion that the broadcasters intended to soil the D&D name is ridiculous, especially since the term Dungeon Master is routinely used in other contexts.
Kaya Kenobi 02-09-04, 04:45 AM	They could sue if they make a specific reference to DnD, but Dungeon Master is so generic and that's nothing new..
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-09-04, 05:19 AM	But if Dateline ran a story about a psychic who peeled people's scalps... Mind Flayer anyone?
Kaya Kenobi 02-09-04, 05:32 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland But if Dateline ran a story about a psychic who peeled people's scalps... Mind Flayer anyone? Or Indian shaman..
Ranger REG 02-09-04, 05:55 AM	Originally posted by Sweet Steph What could they sue for? I don't believe that the term Dungeon Master is protected by copyright. They could try to sue for defamation, but this wouldn't likely work well. The notion that the broadcasters intended to soil the D&D name is ridiculous, especially since the term Dungeon Master is routinely used in other contexts. Actually, Dungeon Master is a live trademark, hence the superscripted TM symbol. Even though the applicant is TSR, Wizards did acquired ALL of TSR's assets. I searched it on the USPO web site: www.uspto.gov
Kaya Kenobi 02-09-04, 06:01 AM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Actually, Dungeon Master is a live trademark, hence the superscripted TM symbol. Even though the applicant is TSR, Wizards did acquired ALL of TSR's assets. I searched it on the USPO web site: www.uspto.gov So someone should contact WotC and inform them of a potential trademark violation..
Capn Charlie 02-09-04, 09:08 AM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi So someone should contact WotC and inform them of a potential trademark violation.. I really see only two outcomes for this: One:Nothing happens. It is taken at face value and if anything we get another GE type boost to the genre. Two: Seeing this as a readily exploitable excuse the fundamentalist groups jump on it like starving hyenas on a wildabeast. I only suspect Wiz/Bro will dispatch the law ninjas if the second goes down. I really think they just used it as a pop culture reference to grab people's attention. Originally posted by green_yawgmoth I want this on a t-shirt. A black one. :cool: I sell them for $15.99 out of the back of my van. They come in m, l, xl, xxl, and "gamestore eunech"(but those cost two bucks extra :D )
Sedriis 02-09-04, 09:32 AM	Well im a game master cus Im not a perv who looks ppl in dungeons... and what does aduction have to do with DMING? blame internet pornography and violence on tv or the whackjobs mum who droped em
WizO_Catoblepas 02-09-04, 05:50 PM	Actually, I caught the Sunday episode of Dateline (I was half watching it - half doing homework) From what I saw, it looked like a certain university would be more upset than WotC. It seemed like though they weren't implicating the university, they kept bringing them up over and over. I'm pretty sure if I was the chancellor of the university, I wouldn't have taken kindly to it. Concerning using the term dungeon master in the story, as Madblue mentioned earlier, probably the term was used by coincidence or than anything else. Looking at what the guy had made, it looked like a dungeon. Figuring that he is the owner "or master" of the house, the combining of the terms is understandable. As for calling myself a Dungeon Master or using the term at work, I probably won't. However, before the incident happened, I wouldn't have done it either. Overall, let's face it, the term doesn't conjure the best of images. However, with those that understand the terms (other gamers), I more than comfortable using the term. It's like anything else - you just have to watch what lingo to use depending on the social setting you find yourself.
Brom Blackforge 02-09-04, 06:02 PM	I know there's a history of various groups associating D&D with bad things, but it seems like that's all over with. Now, popular culture seems to consider all of us gamers to be nerds. Have you seen the appliance commercial where the nerd falls in love with a supermodel and gives her a copy of the Player's Handbook? I'd say the pendulum has swung . . .
Solaris 02-09-04, 06:24 PM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi So someone should contact WotC and inform them of a potential trademark violation.. ...if it actually were a potential trademark violation. Trademark infringement happens when there's likely to be confusion over the source or sponsorship of goods. A court would also look to the intent of the alleged infringer. Trademark dilution happens when the mark is blurred or tarnished, i.e., when the strength of the mark is weakened by its association with other goods, or when the mark is used in an unflattering light. While it may be argued that the phrase "dungeon master" was unflattering as used in the reports, I think the use would be exempted from trademark dilution on the grounds of fair use: it was used in good faith in its primary meaning, "master of a dungeon", and not in its trademarked secondary meaning "referee of a Dungeons & Dragons game". You could trademark the word "Volcano" in association with some product, but the news media would still be free to use the word to describe an opening in the earth's crust through which molten lava, ash, and gases are ejected.
Ranger REG 02-09-04, 08:45 PM	Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas As for calling myself a Dungeon Master or using the term at work, I probably won't. However, before the incident happened, I wouldn't have done it either. Overall, let's face it, the term doesn't conjure the best of images. However, with those that understand the terms (other gamers), I more than comfortable using the term. It's like anything else - you just have to watch what lingo to use depending on the social setting you find yourself. Unfortunately, the roleplaying game hobby doesn't conjure a good reputation still. One prison warden ban roleplaying game magazines, stating it promote a tendency toward a violent nature. FBI profilers still consider it one of many factors of criminal deviance. Of course, media cannot stop implicating it over and over and over again, even though they're just "reporting the crime news." As for an earlier poster who believe it is like a GE boost ... I dunno. The "any publicity is good publicity" reason doesn't mesh well with me.
WizO_Catoblepas 02-09-04, 09:23 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Unfortunately, the roleplaying game hobby doesn't conjure a good reputation still. One prison warden ban roleplaying game magazines, stating it promote a tendency toward a violent nature. FBI profilers still consider it one of many factors of criminal deviance. Of course, media cannot stop implicating it over and over and over again, even though they're just "reporting the crime news." As for an earlier poster who believe it is like a GE boost ... I dunno. The "any publicity is good publicity" reason doesn't mesh well with me. Well, I'm not sure. If this was the 1980's, I'd agree. However, you do have the GE boost, stars coming out to say that they play D&D (Vin Diesel), and people like Gygax (not because he's out and out famous but because the gaming system has influenced some people who make decisions in the positive) doing guest shots on cartoon series like Futurama. Let's face it - one of the guys whose music that I used to listen (and was told would lead me to utter destruction by others in the media) to has a wife doing a daytime talk show. My the world has changed. Thus, I think mainstream really consider people playing D&D more as those who enjoy a unique and complex game rather than satanic worshippers. As for my original statement, I was really just considering what the image would be if a person had never even heard of the game D&D was told "dungeon master". I think that if I had told that person that I was a dungeon master, they still would take two steps away from me.
Brom Blackforge 02-10-04, 11:03 AM	Originally posted by Ranger REG As for an earlier poster who believe it is like a GE boost ... I dunno. The "any publicity is good publicity" reason doesn't mesh well with me. I wasn't saying that the appliance ad is good publicity for D&D. I was saying that it demonstrates that the way gamers are viewed has changed. We're no longer viewed as devil-worshipers; we're viewed as nerds. That's all I was trying to say.
MadBlue 02-11-04, 02:05 AM	Originally posted by Brom Blackforge I wasn't saying that the appliance ad is good publicity for D&D. I was saying that it demonstrates that the way gamers are viewed has changed. We're no longer viewed as devil-worshipers; we're viewed as nerds. That's all I was trying to say. Gamers have always been portrayed as nerds, though. We could use a bit more publicity that doesn't promote a stereotype. The popularity of LotR or the Matrix is enough to show that fantasy and science fiction fans aren't all nerds, in spite of how science fiction and fantasy fans are usually portrayed, but D&D is a roleplaying game, and people in general don't know enough about what that means to be aware that it's something we do in addition to, not instead of, having normal social lives. Although, I understand where you're coming from. D&D is deemed harmless enough that a major manufacturer can feel safe in including the game in a commercial. I imagine GE would have fired its marketing staff if they had portrayed devil-worshipping D&D players in a commercial for one of their products. ;) I do agree that the pendulum is swinging a bit. And I think, in many ways, we have the popularity of Harry Potter to thank for that. MadBlue
Ranger REG 02-11-04, 02:14 AM	Originally posted by Brom Blackforge I wasn't saying that the appliance ad is good publicity for D&D. I was saying that it demonstrates that the way gamers are viewed has changed. We're no longer viewed as devil-worshipers; we're viewed as nerds. That's all I was trying to say. Actually, I was referring to your statement about comparing the Dungeon Master killer story to that of the GE ad as being acceptable publicity. IMHO, the GE is good publicity. But the Dungeon Master killer story or that Vampire murder story back in the 90's is bad publicity. Anyhoo, public perception is a fickle thing, or at least it was shown by the media.
DakezDarkenblood 02-11-04, 09:54 AM	This is why I prefer and always have preferred GM. Games Master keeps everything in context for the masses. What does it sound like he does? Is master of the game. The game word keeps popping up and the game word is the most important word to spread around when it comes to talking about D&D. Game. Game. Game. At worst someone interprets GM as general manager. The idea of being the owner of a team of people who work together to overcome adversity is much closer to the truth than the idea of holding people in an actual dungeon and exerting power over them because you are the dungeon's master. Elitists put their noses up and say lesser games use the word GM and DM is a special thing (just like Storyteller is supposedly a title of honor) but it's all a load of crap. Being elitist doesn't help our hobby at all.
Ranger REG 02-11-04, 08:45 PM	Not necessarily, but then again, we've yet to come across a serial killer who have a penchant for calling himself the Game Master (probably someone who likes to be in control of the game and make the law run around like ordinary NPCs).
Kaya Kenobi 02-12-04, 12:59 AM	I can see it now.. "Tonight on Dateline, we have the diaries of the game master, a psychotic schitzoid serial killer... More tonight."
DakezDarkenblood 02-12-04, 10:12 AM	Even then 'game' doesn't have as ominous a connotation as 'dungeon'. Dungeon is just a negative word in general. It, combined with naked women on evil alters ready to be sacrificed to leering demons in first edition artwork, hasn't done the game any good. There's just no easy way to lose the word Dungeon from the title of the game, though. There IS an easy way to change the term Dungeon Master by comparision.
Sulaco 02-12-04, 01:40 PM	Originally posted by SputnikCorp i don't think the "witchhunts" are going to plague D&D again. our culture has become so submissive and decadent, i don't think it matters, those that do cry out against D&D will always be there. it's there right. I agree that the era of the D&D withc hunt is largely a thing of the past, but I think this is in no small part owing to the fact that the opportunistic politicos and pundits have moved on to the far more high-profile video game industry upon which to vent their faux-rage. Every once in a while I get a little remider of how far D&D has come. Just this week I went into a very large bookstore here in Toronto. In the front when you walk in are several tables of feature items. One had a sign saying "Stay in an Play". Curious, I checked it out and found that the table was covered in D&D books and packs of D&D miniatures. Instead of being hidden away in a back-corner or relegated to specialty stores, D&D is now featured prominently with pride-of-place in high-end and high-profile shops.