Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AsmodeusDM 08-18-06, 10:58 AM	What is the action required to "hide" ? (Or is there even one) As far as the current rules state you need cover and/or concealment in order to make a hide check and you can't be under "casual observation" So is the following scenerio legal? A fight occurs in a dungeon corridor, the rogue with 30 feet of movement spends 10 feet of movement to enter a side-room completely out of view of the monsters, he then turns around and approaches the doorway which gives him cover relative to the monsters, he announces he is Hiding, makes a check (with appropriate penalties for moving) vs their Spot. And then uses his standard action to make a ranged sneak attack? The bluff skill's states a use for providing a "distraction to go hide", I assume this can only mean for situations where a hide check is desired behind cover "while under casual observation" (like a statue in the middle of the room). Not gaining total-cover (i.e. no line of sight or effect) as in my previous example. Lastly what does it mean to be hiding? Should you treat the attacker as invisible? Or should the defender be treated as being denied his Dex from that one attack? Or should he be treated as being flat-footed (which could make a difference for classes like the Barbarian)? Thanks...
Vegepygmy 08-18-06, 02:15 PM	You Hide as part of movement. It is not a separate action by itself. In the scenario you describe, since the rogue is completely out of the monsters' view when he attempts his Hide check, he can do what you describe. You assume correctly about the purpose and function of Bluffing. A Hiding creature should be treated as invisible. (There are some who will argue otherwise, but IMO they're wrong.) Once you attack, you are no longer Hiding, and have to do so again. See the sniping rules in the Hide description. Hiding after making a melee attack requires some movement, though it can be as little as a 5-foot step (and remember the rules requiring cover/concealment and prohibiting Hide checks while being observed).
psipup 08-18-06, 07:42 PM	A fight occurs in a dungeon corridor, the rogue with 30 feet of movement spends 10 feet of movement to enter a side-room completely out of view of the monsters, he then turns around and approaches the doorway which gives him cover relative to the monsters, he announces he is Hiding, makes a check (with appropriate penalties for moving) vs their Spot. And then uses his standard action to make a ranged sneak attack? I would like to build on this scenario to get some clarification on what the full options are hor a hiding rogue. Let's use the same setup, but say that after entering the room and hiding, the rogue did not attack, and on the monsters' turns they did not find him (distracted by other party members or what have you.). On the rogue's next turn, since he is already successfully hidden, if he were leave the room and travel 10 feet down the hall to make a melee attack on one of the monsters, would this be a sneak attack since he had been hidden the monster he is attacking has not had a turn to act after spotting him exit the room, thus being 'flat footed' to the attack? Or does leaving the cover mean they are instantly given back their dex to AC, even without getting an action first, meaning no sneak attack damage? And let's even use one more alteration of the scenario. Let's say that after entering the room and hiding, the rogue waits just inside the doorway and uses his standard action to ready an attack for when a monster enters the square on the other side of the open doorway. When the monster gets into position, the rogue no longer has cover, I believe, since there's nothing between them. Does that mean that, even though he had hidden successfully, the readied attack does not get sneak attack damage? Many thanks
AZNsupermarket 08-18-06, 11:49 PM	I have a question as well, If a person is using greater invisibility, does he have to keep on making hide checks after every attack?
enlightened 08-19-06, 02:35 AM	I have a question as well, If a person is using greater invisibility, does he have to keep on making hide checks after every attack? What would be the point of hiding if you're invisible?
AZNsupermarket 08-19-06, 07:46 PM	What would be the point of hiding if you're invisible? wait, I thought that all invisibility does is give a plus 20 to hide checks.
fatal error 08-19-06, 07:53 PM	Let's use the same setup, but say that after entering the room and hiding, the rogue did not attack, and on the monsters' turns they did not find him (distracted by other party members or what have you.). On the rogue's next turn, since he is already successfully hidden, if he were leave the room and travel 10 feet down the hall to make a melee attack on one of the monsters, would this be a sneak attack since he had been hidden the monster he is attacking has not had a turn to act after spotting him exit the room, thus being 'flat footed' to the attack? Or does leaving the cover mean they are instantly given back their dex to AC, even without getting an action first, meaning no sneak attack damage? I'd say he doesn't get the sneak attack, because even though the monster hasn't acted, everything's kinda sorta supposed to be simultanious in a round, and plus the monster can look around itself while its not its turn. And let's even use one more alteration of the scenario. Let's say that after entering the room and hiding, the rogue waits just inside the doorway and uses his standard action to ready an attack for when a monster enters the square on the other side of the open doorway. When the monster gets into position, the rogue no longer has cover, I believe, since there's nothing between them. Does that mean that, even though he had hidden successfully, the readied attack does not get sneak attack damage? If he readied his attack for when his opponen had cover, thus he'd still be hiding, he could make the sneak attack, but not once the monster has gone far enough that the rogue is in plain view. Note; these may not be RAW, but rather a combination of RAI and RAR (rules as remembered), plus some 'common' sense.
Reinforcements 08-19-06, 09:03 PM	wait, I thought that all invisibility does is give a plus 20 to hide checks. That's sort of true, but there's really more to it. Since a creature needs cover or concealment in order to hide, being invisible means they always have that concealment, so they can always attempt the check. Now, you would have to move after each attack in order to remain "hidden"; the same goes if an enemy notices you another way (makes their Spot check). This is all pretty obvious stuff, and is also usually extraneous, since most creatures won't have a good enough Spot modifier to notice an invisible creature anyway. Keep in mind that when it comes to things like sneak attack, just because a creature notices the hiding, invisible rogue doesn't mean he can SEE the rogue, so the rogue only has to keep moving around and making Hide checks if he wants his location (or presence) to remain unknown. A rogue with greater invisibility operating on him can sneak attack all he wants while jumping up and down in a pile of flour and yelling, "Here I am!" if he feels like it.