Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vagrant 09-11-04, 10:36 PM	I just got back from a D&D Meetup (http://www.meetup.com) which started in a Starbucks. It was about 8 people who all met up in the coffie shop and we discussed D&D. One guy said he was starting a campiagn so him, another guy, and I sat at a diffrent table to discuss that while the other people talked about their own game. After a half hour or so a member from the other group came over and told us we were asked by managment to leave. I looked around all the customers had left during our discusstion. We were not loud, roudy, and we had bought severeal drinks and snacks from the joint, but I guess it was our topic that got us the boot. We ended up at one of the people's houses, but that's not the point. It was the first time I seen first hand the discrimination agianst D&D. I want to hear of any of your guys' recent occorances of this type of stuff. Side note: I realy suggest Meetup.com. I found a real cool DM in my local area and sevreal other nice D&D fans. Try it.
green_yawgmoth 09-11-04, 11:02 PM	Lawsuit! They cannot force anyone to leave their buisiness on the basis of what books they read. It would be like saying "sorry, but we don't let blacks in this place." Next time, ask for a reason. If they say it's because of what you're discussing, come in alone and complain about what other people are discussing, no matter how mundane the topic. If they want to stay in buisiness, they'll have to boot everyone you complain about. Of course, I'm a little out of practice in the whole buisiness/private store hooplah, so someone correct me if/where I'm wrong. http://photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Fixxxer 09-11-04, 11:18 PM	Lawsuit! They cannot force anyone to leave their buisiness on the basis of what books they read. Bet your ass there'd be a lawsuit. The Vagrant, I'd recommend that you go back there tomorrow and ask to see the general manager. Inform him that you and your friends were asked to leave the store because someone in the back (not a patron) didn't seem to like the topic of your conversation, which was not lewd or inappropriate. If you want to be wry, you can hint that you guys are part of a "book club." Let him know that you do not appreciate being discriminated against like that and that you're very unhappy. I bet you and your friends get free coffee for a week.
Mythmere 09-11-04, 11:35 PM	If all the other customers were gone, and management asked you to leave ... are you sure you weren't there after they closed? Jeez, I'm from Texas, home of Southern Baptist frenzy, but a D&D conversation wouldn't empty a Starbucks here. I wonder what the people at that other table were saying? I bet you could get a free coffee or two out of it; not on legal grounds, but just because stores give out free stuff when they tick customers off.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-12-04, 12:55 AM	Lawsuit! They cannot force anyone to leave their buisiness on the basis of what books they read. . . . . however, they can kick you out for no reason at all other than they feel like it. Legally, a business owner can remove anyone they want from their establishment. Furthermore, if all the other customers left because of you, no matter how ignorant they might have been, the manager has the right to eject people who are scaring off customers.
Veton 09-12-04, 01:43 AM	If all the other customers were gone, and management asked you to leave ... are you sure you weren't there after they closed? I think they would have said the store was closed, not to mention that there would probably be people cleaning up and turning off lights. I'd follow Fixxxer's advice and talk to the manager about the incident.
The Vagrant 09-12-04, 03:08 AM	Bisnesses can kick out anyone they wish, as long as it's for no reason. The store was still open. The store was mostly full when the meetup started, empty elbiet for like 2 people I think, when we had to leave. I understand why they would ask us to leave if we're "scaring" away customers, so I won't get my hair in tangle over this nor do I like coffie. Though, a complimentry brownie would be cool. The next Meetup is scheduled to be at the same exact Starbucks. Normally, everyone votes on where it should be then the most popular pick is the meetup point. The Starbucks was choosen agian only hours after coming back from this one, usually the polls are open for 3 weeks or so, not a couple hours. Even if actuall people did vote, why would they vote on a place that will just kick us out agian? I smell coffie bean scented money exchanging hands with Meetup.com.
Fixxxer 09-12-04, 03:14 AM	. . . . however, they can kick you out for no reason at all other than they feel like it. Legally, a business owner can remove anyone they want from their establishment. Yes, but if you are removed not because you're bad for business, but because of your choice in reading material/lovers/clothing/etc, that's called discrimination, which is a big no-no for business owners in this country. Just ask the guy who used to own Denny's. If The Vagrant and his friends were being loud, rude or lewd, there would be a reason. From the suprise in his post, my assumption has been that they weren't being obnoxious and that the general conclusion that was reached is that someone objected to the content of their conversation.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-12-04, 03:21 AM	Yes, but if you are removed not because you're bad for business, but because of your choice in reading material/lovers/clothing/etc, that's called discrimination, which is a big no-no for business owners in this country. Just ask the guy who used to own Denny's. If The Vagrant and his friends were being loud, rude or lewd, there would be a reason. From the suprise in his post, my assumption has been that they weren't being obnoxious and that the general conclusion that was reached is that someone objected to the content of their conversation. If everyone in the place left but them, it can be assumed that they are bad for business. I was manager in a restaurant, and I kicked out a bunch of people for being obnoxious. Not only that, but a hobby or reading materials does not constitute discrimination. Unless your hobby is being black or something.
Fixxxer 09-12-04, 03:49 AM	If everyone in the place left but them, it can be assumed that they are bad for business. ...or it could be assumed that it was the slow part of the day and the majority of people needed to get back to work. I was manager in a restaurant, and I kicked out a bunch of people for being obnoxious. You and me both, man. Sometime the year before last, I had to help one guy out the door...with his palm flat against his wrist. Not only that, but a hobby or reading materials does not constitute discrimination. Unless your hobby is being black or something. So what you're saying is that if I'm running the register at Starbucks and I see a guy who is not obviously bothering anyone, but is reading Mein Kampf, I'm allowed to kick him out the door?
Count Arioch the 28th 09-12-04, 03:50 AM	Yes you are. Legally, a manager of a restaurant can eject anyone, and I would consider anyone reading nazi propaganda to be a nuisance, for the record.
Fixxxer 09-12-04, 04:04 AM	Legally, a manager of a restaurant can eject anyone, and I would consider anyone reading nazi propaganda to be a nuisance, for the record. Interesting. No offense, but would it cross your mind for one second that it might be a college student doing research for his Poly Sci class? I'm not saying that I sympathize with hate groups or anything, but I would figure that if someone kicked me out of an establishment for nothing more than my taste in literature, he's got to be dumping on at least one of the many blanket rights granted by the US government. Obviously, we're not talking about a private establishment here, we're talking about a business that is open to the public.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-12-04, 04:09 AM	Yes, this is a business. However, the law states that a manager reserves the right to refuse service to anyone. Which means, if I own a business, I can refuse to sell to you and ask you to leave if I don't like the color of your tie, or don't like your haircut, or even because I feel like it. That's the law.
Arrowhen 09-12-04, 04:26 AM	The next Meetup is scheduled to be at the same exact Starbucks. Normally, everyone votes on where it should be then the most popular pick is the meetup point. The Starbucks was choosen agian only hours after coming back from this one, usually the polls are open for 3 weeks or so, not a couple hours. Even if actuall people did vote, why would they vote on a place that will just kick us out agian? Meetup.com did a big reorganization last month and changed the way a lot of things are done. It used to be that you'd vote on a venue from a small list of venues for each area. Starbucks were common on those lists because there's like twelve on every corner. Now instead of voting from a list, the organizer can just pick any venue. I'm an organizer for my local D&D meetup (Tacoma, WA) and I got an email recently asking me to pick the venue for next month's meeting. While I hadn't gotten around to responding to it yet, I just checked the site and apparently it automatically sets the venue to the same one used in the previous month. You should contact your organizer (there's a handy "contact organizer" link right on the site) and tell him or her it might be a good idea to change the venue to some place that doesn't suck.
Mr.Musgrave 09-12-04, 04:35 AM	Chances are they kicked you out because you were an unpermitted group meeting. When I worked in a starbucks cafe, we had to have groups leave all the time because they were not permitted to be there. You can't just gather together and have a meeting in a business just because you want to. Get permission for the meeting from the management next time. And no, you can't sue them for what they did. They were perfectly within their rights.
The_Dark_One 09-12-04, 05:08 AM	Chances are they kicked you out because you were an unpermitted group meeting. When I worked in a starbucks cafe, we had to have groups leave all the time because they were not permitted to be there. I'm mystified by this. If they are there individualy, they are valued customers, but if they are there collectively, they are an unauthorized group that has to leave? What's wrong with a group of people sitting around talking? I'd think it would be perfectly alright, if they were buying things. Selling coffee is what Starbucks is in buisiness for (great, now I'm craving a Brownie Frappichino and I don't live near a Starbucks, yet. The one near my house is still under construction). Well, I'll have to find one when I go see Ron White in Alabama...
Telperion 09-12-04, 05:58 AM	I'm mystified by this. If they are there individualy, they are valued customers, but if they are there collectively, they are an unauthorized group that has to leave? This is obviously the american law system we are talking about, so I'm not exactly qualified to say anything about it. ...However... A group of people meeting in a business local without notice could be considered an intrusion into said space. It's really all about making money. If you are going to hold a meeting in a public place you need to contact the owner of said establishment and reserve (that will cost some money, probably) an area for yourself. It's just good manners and it also keeps the owner from worrying about sales and regular customers. 1. The owner may not want to change the image of his establishment by allowing non-suitable customers to frequent the establishment regularly. 2. A large group of people who frequent the establishment regularly is good for business, but if they do not actually buy anything from the establishment then it is very bad for business. By allowing you to stay at said establishment the owner would also be saying you can do so in the future. If he feels that is not acceptable then it is irrelevant how many products you bought at any particular time. The owner has to think about the future as well. 3. Space is a very expensive commodity to any establishment. If you are using someone else's space then it needs to be in a profitable fashion. The OP said that the group had purchased products, but if they had left earlier how many other customers might have bought products from the owner as well? By taking up space in the establishment the group was effectively keeping other customers away.
The Vagrant 09-12-04, 06:16 AM	The organizer said, along with everyone else the they didn't vote for the starbucks. Maybe it's just a glitch or something. Thanks for the reply, though. 1. The owner may not want to change the image of his establishment by allowing non-suitable customers to frequent the establishment regularly. I think I seen a moive once were a bisness was trying to get rid of a group of regulars for exactly that reson. Maybe it was that Urkel show when they owned that dinner. By allowing you to stay at said establishment the owner would also be saying you can do so in the future. If he feels that is not acceptable then it is irrelevant how many products you bought at any particular time. That might be it. They may or may not have known that we were planing on not using the Starbucks agian because we weren't going to. the group had purchased products, but if they had left earlier how many other customers might have bought products from the owner as well? By taking up space in the establishment the group was effectively keeping other customers away. Good point but the place was practically empty when we were asked/told to leave. If they kicked us out for more room, they sure did it at on odd time.
Galahad_Knight 09-12-04, 07:00 AM	For the record, Dad kicked peopoe out of his game store all the time. You can eject anyone for almost any reason you want. Just because a business is open to the public doesn't mean they can't opt to close it to whatever members of the public they deem fit. "Open to the public" and "Public Property" are teo very different things. A business is *private* property, which happens to be open, by the good graces of the owner, to the public. A starbucks is a private establishemnt which serves the public, but if certain members of the public are being a neusence they can and will be ejected. It's not your house. Going into someone else's establishment is a privealage, not a right. No law in this or any other country gives you the right to trespass on another person's property. If the proprietor of an establishment tells you to get out you are officially trespassing. It sucks, yes, but it's life. When you live in a society you have to learn to live by other peoiple's rules sometimes. If you don't like his rules don't go back. "We reserve the right to serve" isn't just a clever little ryme they put on shop counters. As for people shouting about discrimination, there's no such thing as legal discrimination against people who play D&D. You're not an oppressed minority, you're just unpopular. Get used to it, get over it. I can't tell you to get out for being black but no amendment I've heard of mentions gamers. And don't even try to say freedom of expression because it's not universal and it doesn't apply to other people's places. When you enter a business you agree to abide by their rules. Just like how when you enter the boards you agree to abide by the CoC. The CoC says not to do certain things. If you do them, the WizOs can kick you out. Same thing goes for business. One of those universal rules of being in someone else's establishment is "Thou Shalt Not Scare Away Customers" You were ejected because you WERE bad for business. D&D isn't for everyone. It freaks out the normals, you know that. Think about it, the poster said that all the other customers left, presumably because of their discussion. Obviously someone thought enough of it to complain to the establishment. If you scare away customers the owner is damned well right to kick your butt out. You;re not a valued customer if you scare away other valued customers. If me and six friends discuss freaky sexual fetishes in normal conversational tones in a coffee shop and customers complain you wouldn't think twice about me being ejected. Think about it. What if I set on the doorstep of a privately owned daycare talking to a friend about how much I enjoy molesitng little girls. Tell me my but wouldn;t be bouncing across the sidewalk in a heartbeat and tell me any of you people would defend me? You wouldn't read a porno magazine in a public place and expect to stay long, same goes for gaming books. They have the right to print them, you have the right to read them, but you don't have the right to do it in someone else's house. Granted, that was a bit of hyperbole, but it's got the same meaning. Some people dinf D&d offensive. If you talk about it in front of them they will be offended. You do not have a right to be offensive on someone else's property. If you offend his customers he;s going to send you away. It's stupid and ignorant, but to some people D&D is just as offensive. You can't sue anyone. If you try it the judge will laugh you out of court. The best you can do is just tell the shopkeeper to **** off and never go back to his joint. Chances are he won't miss you. Your power as a consumer is kinda meaningless if the place has more than eight customers. Anyhow, I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I've had to bounce people from my dad's game store, the theater I worked at, messageboards I admined on, etc. I've heard this areuement a million times and it;s become a raw spot. Basically it boils down to this: Roleplaying is still an unpopular, misnuderstood and sociually unacceptable hobby. Is it sad? Yes. Is it ignorant? Yes. Do I defend ignorance? Nope. BUT As long as you practice something that is socially unaccetable, be prepared for society not to accept you. If your local coffee hangout doesn't like you talking game then meet someplace else. The library, the park, someone's house, a coffee shop not owned by a jerk, you name it. Right now gaming is socially unacceptable., It;s just the way it is. If it ticks you off then do somethign to change public awareness of gaming. Fight the good fight. Just don;t complain when you get kicked out of a coffee shop ;-) Anyhow, as has been said...you have the right to read and say whatever you want...you just don;t have the right to do it anywhere you want.
Galahad_Knight 09-12-04, 07:17 AM	Sorry if my last post was a bit long winded and possibly harsh. It's basically all been said before, I just like saying it because of my own experience. Here's another reason why groups can;t hold meetings in businesses without permission: You take up space. A normal customer buys a coffee, drinks it and leaves. A couple bucks spent, a few minutes wasted. If you have a group meeting, even if everyone there buys a coffee, you;re staying way longer than normal. If you take up space for 8 people, buy 8 peoples worth of stuff, but stay there twice as long as normal you;re already costing the store money. I see this all the time at the Sherri's where the goth kids hang out. They all buy a coffee, they sit around and shoot the breeze for a few hoursand suck up free refills. Meanwhile more customers could use the table space. Same reason bartenders don;t like when someone sits at the bar and nurses a drink. I'm not saying that nessecarily applies in this case because obviously is the store emptied there's still space for customers, but thius is the mainr eason behind rules against meetings. Time is money.
The_Dark_One 09-12-04, 07:17 AM	Just don;t complain when you get kicked out of a coffee shop ;-) Go ahead and complain. It won't do any good at all, but its better than keeping that stuff bottled up. Personally, I still regret being talked out of making a sign and protesting in front of a dollar store, because I'd purchased the wrong brand of candy and was not permitted to make an exchange. I could have gotten on the news :embarrass . Think about it. What if I set on the doorstep of a privately owned daycare talking to a friend about how much I enjoy molesitng little girls. It's stupid and ignorant, but to some people D&D is just as offensive. Ummmm.....uhhhhhh :mymy: :eek: :OMG! :weep: I really don't know what to make of THAT analogy. Did you actually say that????!!!!????!!??? Yes, some people are offended by D&D. Those people are idiots. Some people are offended by Halloween as well. If I'm talking about decorating my house for this greatest of all holidays over coffee, should I be exiled because someone thinks Halloween has Satanic overtones? No, I shouldn't.
The_Dark_One 09-12-04, 07:20 AM	So, I'm hurting their buisiness when I buy my coffee and read my book for half an hour? I actually feel kind of bad about that. Is it really that bad? Is it minor rudeness, or escaped Nazi war criminal type bad? Do the coffee shop people hate me? :weep:
Galahad_Knight 09-12-04, 07:31 AM	As I said, I was using hyperbole. That's like exaggeration for those unaware of the term. The point was some things aren;t acceptable to some people. If you think people weho are offended by D&dare idiots, that's fine. It doesn;t make them idiots and it doesn;t make their views, opinions, or money any less valuable than yours. The point was you can;t just do anything you want anywhere you want. As for the reading a book thing, thewre's a difference between one person taking up one table for a limited amount of time, and a *meeting* of several people, taking up a lot of realestate for a long time. Think about it. If the average visit to a coffee shop takes 15 minutes and you suck up two hours of table space on 15 or even 30 minute's worth of coffee you're costing the shop money. If you;re an individual and you take an unreasonable amount of time and don;t buy but one thing then you;re a neusence. You;re not crippling the shop or anything, but the establishment would rather have less customers like you. If you;re a large group taking up a lot of time and realestate and not buying as much stuff as that realestate normally brings in you;re a problem. Think about it, as a store owner would you rather sell ten coffees in an hour or a hundred? If your store is filled up by ten people who bought one coffee and there's no room for the other 90 people to take their turns sitting then you;re boned.
Tenzhi 09-12-04, 07:40 AM	So, I'm hurting their buisiness when I buy my coffee and read my book for half an hour? Not unless they're currently so full it's standing room only. Otherwise the space and time are costing them the same amount of money whether someone is occupying it or not.
The_Dark_One 09-12-04, 07:41 AM	It doesn;t make them idiots and it doesn;t make their views, opinions, or money any less valuable than yours. It also doesn't make them any more valuable. About everything else, though, I am forced to admit that I see your point. Oh, my second post was in no way sarcastic. I was feeling actual guilt over the idea that I was cheating the coffee shop out of buisiness. I now crave a Brownie Frappichino and there is aboslutley nothing I can do about it... :weep:
Marchen 09-12-04, 01:17 PM	Starbucks sucks. Go to an indie coffee house, everything is better there.
VirgilCaine 09-12-04, 01:41 PM	. . . . however, they can kick you out for no reason at all other than they feel like it. Legally, a business owner can remove anyone they want from their establishment. Furthermore, if all the other customers left because of you, no matter how ignorant they might have been, the manager has the right to eject people who are scaring off customers. Ditto that.
Fixxxer 09-12-04, 02:40 PM	As for the reading a book thing, thewre's a difference between one person taking up one table for a limited amount of time, and a *meeting* of several people, taking up a lot of realestate for a long time. But where do you draw the line between a meeting and a couple of guys who just happen to be having a good conversation over their coffee?
Count Arioch the 28th 09-12-04, 04:52 PM	Ask the manager on duty at the time, because it's his decision.
eclipticavatar 09-12-04, 05:05 PM	What if two girls kiss and it scares away customers? Can they be kicked out? Descrimination. I recommend lawsuit.
von Szass 09-12-04, 05:28 PM	Conclusion: thank goodness there's no Starbucks in the Netherlands.
PlaDeDump 09-12-04, 05:40 PM	I agree with one of the previous posts, D&D does seem to freak out the so-called "normals". I remember when I was in the Navy, there was a D&D group that used to play in the crew's lounge. I wasn't a gamer back then, but I wasn't bothered by them. However, it seems like everyone else on the boat hated them. You could always hear complaining about this group from people. Like I said, the group didn't bother me ( in fact, I'm actually into D&D these days) but it needs to be said that some people just don't like D&D. I think it scares them. Tragedy...
von Szass 09-12-04, 05:48 PM	I guess it's roleplaying in general. However: I sometimes LARP (Live Action Role Playing) as well and often people ask what we're doing or just smile (Most fun are little kids, wondering what the crazy dressed sirs and madams are doing there, but if you wave at them they happily wave back and proceed with whatever they were doing.). Maybe we should start roleplaying street teams, to inform people about our hobby or give demo's at public places (with the agreement of the owner or caretaker of that public place). ;)
Darth K'Trava 09-12-04, 07:16 PM	Ask the manager on duty at the time, because it's his decision. And if you don't agree with his reason for the decision, then you can request the name and contact info of his immediate supervisor and, if needed, the guy above him. The only people I've seen kicked out of where I work were acting like total jerks and the last one I kicked out for lying about someone missing a food item out of his bag just after he'd been asking the manager if he could clean windows for food..... :rolleyes: I could understand if you were being disruptive but if you're not, then there's no reason at all that they should kick you out unless the store was busy and they needed the tables for other customers. We've had several customers who sit for an hour or so and do nothing but chat, drink coffee, smoke (before we went no smoking) and spend only $1 on their food and senior coffee.... They've quit that since the smokers moved on to another restaurant chain and one or two have passed away, the rest just don't hang around anymore like they used to (and alot of them were good customers). But we didn't throw any out because they loitered around. So that's no excuse at all. People do that all the time. Just check out Barnes & Nobles bookstores where they have CHAIRS for people to sit in and read. How many of them actually buy stuff?? Not all, I'm pretty sure. Do any get tossed out? Not that I've seen. Or they'd have tossed me and a friend out when I whocked him upside the head with a SW poster.... ;)
Grox 09-12-04, 08:08 PM	What if two girls kiss and it scares away customers? Can they be kicked out? Descrimination. I recommend lawsuit. Yes, they can. Kicking two girls out for kissing is arguably different than kicking them out because they are lesbians. It is perfectly legal for anyone --- government, business, whatever --- to discriminate against anyone else, based on that person's BEHAVIOR. If you're a sex offender, I can discriminate against hiring you to drive a school bus. If you've gone bankrupt, I can discriminate against lending you money. Furthermore, being a property owner gives one the right to be capricious. It doesn't make any difference that this specific piece of private property (the Starbucks' ) happens to be owned through a corporation or an LLC or something --- OR that the business is a franchise. Suppose you invite me over to your apartment. It's entirely up to you when and if you ask me to leave. You don't have to be fair. It doesn't matter that we're watching the Super Bowl, which only comes once a year. It doesn't matter that I rearranged my schedule to be there. It doesn't matter that you promised me I could spend the night on your couch. It doesn't matter that I brought beer and munchies at my own expense, or that I paid for the pizza. It doesn't matter that I had your permission to enter when I showed up in the first place. It doesn't matter that the stuff I said about your wife that angered you was TRUE. In short, it doesn't matter that you're being a jerk. You have the right. About the only place where this analogy doesn't work is that, as a private property owner, you CAN order someone out of your house for merely being black. A property owner who regularly opens his property to the public, in order to sell them stuff, who "denies services" to someone solely because of their membership in a "suspect class" (race, religion, gender, sex orientation, status as a military veteran, etc), cannot. Interest or participation in D&D is a form of BEHAVIOR, however, and thus is a "non-suspect" class that can be safely discriminated against by anyone. Moreover, ordering a customer out of your establishment is not necessarily the same denying them services. Asking you to leave AFTER you've bought and drank your coffee because some demographer at corporate HQ says that Starbucks thinks it's more profitable to not have people hanging out for hours --- well, that's not denying you services. Is the corporate demographer full of it? Yeah maybe, but so what? Starbucks sells coffee, and you got your coffee.
Seeker95 09-12-04, 08:36 PM	It is only illegal discrimination if you can prove that you were kicked out for: Race Religion Age (some restrictions apply) Creed Nationality Gender Sexual Orientation (varies by state). If you were kicked out for your political beliefs, favorite book, acne level, or any other reason than those listed above, you have no case. It may be bad business practice, but it is not illegal. You can forget about the whole thing. You can have a talk with the owner. You can boycott the store. You can sue and lose. How you respond is probably more likely to affect you than the owner.
Galahad_Knight 09-12-04, 08:37 PM	Dark One, sorry I kind of padded my response around the chance you were being sarcastic. No, reading a book for a half hour or so while you drink your coffee isn't normally a problem, especially if there's still plenty of room. If there's plenty of space to go around then youre not really making an impact, especially if it;s just you. However, if the place3 is hopping and ther's noplace for people to sit down then you taking up a table by yourself could be pretyt inconveniant. The whole time and space = money thing really only plays into things when the place is busy or you;re taking up a *lot* of room (like several friends filling up two or three tables) Eclipticavatar Just because the couple happens to be homosexual doesn;t make anything someone does discrimination. Public displays of affection make some people uncomfortable, hetero or homosexual. Depending on the nature of it and how intense it isd it'll even make me uncomfortable. If I see some girl sitting in a guy's lap at a starbucks with her tongue down his throat and his hand down her top you bet I'm going to ask the manager to hose them down. Get a room. I'm not discriminating against heterosexuals just because I don;t like the idea of having an improv porno going on while I eat. Make the couple lesbians and suddenly people scream discrimination. People are so used to being able to cry fowl, play the <insert thing here> card and what not that duddenly anything you do to someone who happens to be a certain color or persuasion people scream is discrimination. If some black buys are sitting at the table being loud and rowdy and making inappropriate comments and I throw them out people call me a racist, regardless of the fact I;d do the same for a bunch of white folks causing problems. Now, this isn;t to say that the situation *can't* be discrimination. If the person complaiuned *b ecause* they;re lesbians then there could be a problem here. But if someone complained about a public display of affection making them uncomfortable that's another matter.
The_Dark_One 09-12-04, 08:45 PM	About the only place where this analogy doesn't work is that, as a private property owner, you CAN order someone out of your house for merely being black. A property owner who regularly opens his property to the public, in order to sell them stuff, who "denies services" to someone solely because of their membership in a "suspect class" (race, religion, gender, sex orientation, status as a military veteran, etc), cannot. Interest or participation in D&D is a form of BEHAVIOR, however, and thus is a "non-suspect" class that can be safely discriminated against by anyone. This brings up a weird double standard. Lets say that I am with a small group (4) of friends at a Starbucks. We are sitting at a table. We've all bought something to eat. Every 5-10 mintes each one of us buys another coffee. For this example, these are all guys from my gaming group (Curtis is probably outside smoking in this example). At the next table is a group of people who are all Christians. They are all part of a club that has formed with an anti-D&D purpose. They want to pressure locl stores not to sell gaming supplies and get parents to throw away their children's gaming materials. They are talking about this loudly right by my table (they also make the comment that the Illuminati sucks, which I could never tolerate). I, as a continually paying customer, go and asks that they be thrown out for making my Starbucks experience unpleasant. Since religion is a "Suspect group" and gamers are not, then I'm screwed, right?
The_Dark_One 09-12-04, 08:47 PM	What if two girls kiss and it scares away customers? Can they be kicked out? Wouldn't this atrract customers?
The Vagrant 09-12-04, 08:51 PM	I think the whole legal matter is settled even though I never raised it nor made any mention of tryingto sue the Starbucks, that would be silly. I've asked for simular recent situations like mine where you, or your group, was told/asked to leave, denied accses, or in any other ways discriminated agianst. So, if you're sitting around this thread talking about the law and suits and sexual orientations then I'm going to have to ask you to leave.
Sensei Gith 09-12-04, 08:55 PM	They are talking about this loudly right by my table (they also make the comment that the Illuminati sucks, which I could never tolerate). I, as a continually paying customer, go and asks that they be thrown out for making my Starbucks experience unpleasant. Since religion is a "Suspect group" and gamers are not, then I'm screwed, right? You could move to another table. Or talk loudly about D&D until they start shouting "repent, sinners!" and get them chucked out for being *******s. Or better, start a bar fight. Coffee shop fight. Whatever. Just make sure to use disintegrate--summoning a demon would be a bit of a giveaway.
Marchen 09-12-04, 09:52 PM	I think people should learn to deal and not throw pissy fits whenever they see something they don't like or agree with. So you see/hear something you don't like at Starbucks. Boo hoo. Drink your coffee, talk to your friends, and ignore the problem. I think a lawsuit over something like this is ridiculous. Go find another coffee shop if you are that bothered by it.
Seeker95 09-12-04, 10:44 PM	So, if you're sitting around this thread talking about the law and suits and sexual orientations then I'm going to have to ask you to leave.You are free to ask. But... 1. You aren't the owner. 2. If your purpose for the thread has been satisfied, then it may be wiser for you to leave as we debate the finer points of sex suits and legal orientations. (The above is offered as a joke -- whether it contains any humor or not.) :D
The Vagrant 09-12-04, 11:52 PM	1. You aren't the owner. No, but I can tell managment and they can kick anyone out. 2. If your purpose for the thread has been satisfied, then it may be wiser for you to leave as we debate the finer points of sex suits and legal orientations. I've not been sated in my request for simular experinces. In fact, not even one such requested story has occured. Either you all leave, or I'll never come to this thread agian. ---- Do I really need to add a smiley to blantently sarcastic posts? Especially ones that so clearly paralell the subject matter and thus reinforce the ironic intentions of the post?
The_Dark_One 09-13-04, 12:10 AM	Do I really need to add a smiley All posts must have smileys. :cloud9: :whatsthis :tiphat: :88E: :fight!: :heehee :bounce: :pile: :invasion: I think that people are not posting similliar experiences, because we haven't had them...I know I haven't
Lord Nat 09-13-04, 12:20 AM	If this has not be posted before I'd like to say. Yes they can kick you out. Any shop (Or anything) owner can kick out out for what ever they feel like and even ban you from the place. They own the land and says who can come and go. Like how they can kick Card Counters out (Even if they are not breaking the law) they have to right to tell who ever they like to get out. They own the land so it is just like yo asking some out to leave the place you live. I know this as I have lived at camps for many years (around 16) and we have banned people from the camp before (Mostly creepy guys who flow the kids around all the time).
The_Dark_One 09-13-04, 12:39 AM	Like how they can kick Card Counters out (Even if they are not breaking the law) Not to highjack the thread, but there really should be a law preventing a casino from expelling you for counting cards. Its, at its most basic level, kicking you out for winning. If you kick out the people who are winning, you are running a rigged game and that should be against the law, just like all other forms of fraud and theft. Meanwhile, back at the point... I really do think that the descrimination against gamers has gotten better over the years. We're now viewed as harmless dorks, rather than the elite cadre of satanic terrorists in training that people once thought us to be. Thats much better, right?????????? :mymy: Please don't turn this thread into an argument about card counting. I don't want the thread to degenerate into a flame war, because it would be entirely my fault..... :weep:
Telperion 09-13-04, 02:56 AM	I really do think that the descrimination against gamers has gotten better over the years. We're now viewed as harmless dorks, rather than the elite cadre of satanic terrorists in training that people once thought us to be. Thats much better, right?????????? :mymy: Helsingin Sanomat, which is the largest daily newspaper in my country, did an article about roleplaying in general, back in the early 90's. I think it might have been as late as 1992, but that doesn't really matter. In any event they made the general proclamation that RPG gamers are, indeed, part of a non-christian subculture and that the "hobby" is mentally dangerous to anyone participating in it. After a few years (probably around 1995) they did another article, which basically said: RPGs are about number crunching, statistical probabilities and people reading children's stories to one another. That is the extent of my experiences in this matter, and it has never become a problem. I have no idea what kind of problems you got going on over there across the Atlantic Ocean, but they haven't reached these shores as of yet.
Midnight Lurker 09-13-04, 08:47 AM	I've worked in restaurants and had to kick gamers out before. Usually it was because the people weren't spending any money. We'd have a group of 5 or 6 guys come in, order 3 coffees and 3 waters, and hang out for hours. That is NOT condusive to business. They are taking up space and not spending money. I don't know if everyone in your group actually paid for coffee, or if you just used Starbucks as a meeting place, but that could be cause for the boot. <you said several drinks and snacks, but if not everyone bought something, you're just taking up space>
Naeron 09-13-04, 08:55 AM	I think the best response is to go to the Starbucks and politely ask why you were asked to leave. The do have the right to refuse service and, in the UK, they can do so freely as long as they are not contravening legislation that protects against discrimination. If the reason was that you had been sitting there for 4 hours and only bought 2 coffees each then they would be right to do so. If the reason was that they had had a number of complaints about your behaviour then they would also be within their rights as they need to adress the satisfaction level of the majority of their customers. If it was because they or their customers object to D&D then while they might be morally wrong they are again legally able to do so because D&D does not, as far as I am aware, come under anti-discrimination laws. On the subject of 2 girls kissing that is a much more tricky area, but that is because discrimination on the basis of sexual orentation is usually covered by legal statute. If a same sex couple was engaged in a level of physical contact that was permitted by male/female couples and asked to leave then this would almost certainly provide adequate grounds for legal action because it would be discriminating solely on the grounds of sexual preference. If however the activities were of a level that were acted upon irrespective of the gender of the parties involved then such a case would almost certainly fall under the blanket right of a private business to refuse service. Its basically the same as "No shirt, no shoes, no service" is not discriminatory of applied even-handedly to all races, religions and sexual preferences. If you are looking for a meeting place in the future it would probably be best to either ask in advance if it is private premises or to use public facilities e.g. a library or community centre (if the US has these in the same way as the UK does) as they are usually much more constrained in who they can refuse service to by their charter of providing services to the public as a whole. Im just glad I live in a country where this level of intolerance to D&D has never been that much of a problem.
Ricky 09-13-04, 09:42 AM	I live in Canada, and I've gone to many Tim Horton's (which is a Canadian chain of coffee shops). In university, there was one TH a block from my university. I would go there to study, alone, with my books on the table. I would stay there for hours, during which I would buy some coffee or a donut, spending maybe $5-$10 in total. Your group sounds like it was spending more money than that, so I don't know why they objected to you being there. My point is that what Starbucks did may be legal, but it still sounds weird.
Escef 09-13-04, 10:08 AM	What if two girls kiss and it scares away customers? Can they be kicked out? Descrimination. I recommend lawsuit. A good manager with a sense of diplomacy would quietly explain the situation to the girls involved and say something along the lines of "I'm not making demands, but please leave" and maybe throw in a free drink for willful compliance. I used to be the assisstant manager at a qwuik-e-mart type establishment, I've had to kick people before. Heck, I've had to call the cops down to eject large mobs after the local club let out. Yeah, they'd buy stuff, but they'd stay in the lot for over an hour if I let them, and with as many as there were, behaiving as they were, no normal person would want to come in. So, how were you guys dressed? Do you know how the group at the other table was acting? If they were being too loud or animated the manager would have booted the lot of you as both tables came in together. Maybe at the hour you guys were tossed out there would normally be several customers, and now there were none. Or, perhaps you made the regulars uneasy, and the manager decided he had to bounce you guys before you became regulars and scared the old regulars away (probably to another Starbucks, but that isn't the point). And as has been said many a time, in many different ways, "We the merchant reserve the right to deny any sale for any reason or lack thereof." Not saying it's always fair or right, but them's the rules.
PaladinKD 09-13-04, 10:46 AM	Just go to the Starbucks across the street. If they kick you out, go to the one down the street. :D joking aside, I've had no similar experience to tell of. Maybe a dirty look here and there when talking of spell effects in public, but nothing more. I actually find it humorous to imagine what the little snippets of conversation overheard by others must sound like, when taken out of the RPG context. "... and I tried to give my Fiendish Badger too complicated of a command. I'll have to remember that next time I summon him..." :confused: :D I think the easiest and best course is to stop going to the establishment thus denying them your business. Relate the story to fellow gamers (which is what your doing here :) ) and friends thus losing them more business. True, it might not effect the corporate entity that is SB all that much, but it will do something.
Levis 09-13-04, 10:49 AM	I think the easiest and best course is to stop going to the establishment thus denying them your business. Relate the story to fellow gamers (which is what your doing here :) ) and friends thus losing them more business. True, it might not effect the corporate entity that is SB all that much, but it will do something. I'm not sure boycotting it would help, for starters I would be more likely to go somewhere its guarenteed I won't get corned by someone wanting to discuss his new HP theory.
PaladinKD 09-13-04, 10:53 AM	I'm not sure boycotting it would help, for starters I would be more likely to go somewhere its guarenteed I won't get corned by someone wanting to discuss his new HP theory. :confused:
Arrowhen 09-13-04, 11:02 AM	I've never really been discriminated against for gaming (unless getting beaten up in junior high counts.) We were asked to stop playing Vampire at Denny's once, but it was just because we were rolling dice. The manager on duty told us we were welcome to sit and game all night if we wanted, as long as we weren't doing anything a complete moron might construe as gambling (his words.) I was, however, kicked out of a Sharri's once for playing chess. They told us that we couldn't play chess there because they didn't want to promote a "tavern-like atmosphere." Which is kind of funny because I've played chess in a tavern and received some pretty funny looks for it. Maybe that says something about my taste in taverns.
Thelandrach 09-13-04, 11:04 AM	Vagrant, I'm a little unclear on something. Did anybody actually ask why you were being asked to leave? Give them a call before the next meeting and ask if it's going to be a problem. If it is going to be a problem and you can't warn people off in time, find someplace within walking distance so people can meet at Starbucks, then go to the alternate place. If you can warn everybody in time, just change your meeting place. It's like Heidi Fleiss's line about hookers: they don't want you to buy coffee. They want you to buy coffee and then leave.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-13-04, 11:09 AM	I've never really been discriminated against for gaming (unless getting beaten up in junior high counts.) I got beat up one time for walking down the middle set of stairs in junior high school. So, no, it doesn't count. ;) (In my junior high school, there were three sets of stairs in the front hallway. If you walked down the middle set of stairs, that meant you were gay. Yeah, it made exactly as much sense back then as it does now.) In my defense, I threw that guy a good 10 feet while he was sitting in a desk in high school, so it all ended happily.:D
simen_88 09-13-04, 11:15 AM	Two years ago, a head was found in a frozen lake here in Norway. He was identified to be a LARPer and a gamer of Vampire. Since he loved vampires, and you kill them by cutting their heads off, the cops thought some gamers did it. After all, people say stuff like that has happened in america. After some investigation, they realized two mad drunks had decided to kill a random person. Basically, that's the story of how two drunks pwnd the police and got me interested in gaming.
Arrowhen 09-13-04, 11:18 AM	Basically, that's the story of how two drunks pwnd the police and got me interested in gaming. :rofl: Yeah, well you guys have death metal bands who, like, eat each other so I wouldn't put anything past you.
Lord Nat 09-13-04, 11:53 AM	I think all you can do when a place like starbucks kicks you out (Not that I have EVER been in a starbucks as I hate them more then most anything) is find a good hobby shop. Most self owned hobby shops have play areas. I use places like that most the time to meet other players and for games that are not in one of the people's place. Some of them even have food and stuff you can buy there but they will not kick you out if you don't buy anything. So it is the best place to go. To find some check out the where to buy thing on here. It is the easyest way I have found to find hobby shops. *edit* I hate mornings -_-
PaladinKD 09-13-04, 12:02 PM	I think all you can do when a place like starbucks kicks you out (Not that I have EVER been in a starbucks as I hate them more then most anything) is find a good hoppy shop. Most self owned happy shops have play areas. I use places like that most the time to meet other players and for games that are not in one of the people's place. Some of them even have food and stuff you can buy there but they will not kick you out if you don't buy anything. So it is the best place to go. To find some check out the where to buy thing on here. It is the easyest way I have found to find hobby shops. I am SO glad you spelled hobby right in the last line of your post. I was really starting to wonder what a Hoppy/Happy Shop was. :confused: Though it does sound like a fun place to visit. :D
Lord Nat 09-13-04, 12:12 PM	I hate mornings -_-
Lord Nat 09-13-04, 12:21 PM	Topic maker. Are you in St. Paul, MN too? I was just looking at the meet up for my area and they are talking about a meeting at Starbucks that sucked. If you don't want to say it is ok. Just asking.
Arrowhen 09-13-04, 12:46 PM	...find a good hoppy shop. I like mine a little more malty.
PaladinKD 09-13-04, 12:55 PM	I like mine a little more malty. * In my best computer Dwarven voice* "Did someone say BEEEERRRRR!" :drool:
Thelandrach 09-13-04, 01:53 PM	Topic maker. Are you in St. Paul, MN too? I was just looking at the meet up for my area and they are talking about a meeting at Starbucks that sucked. If you don't want to say it is ok. Just asking. You do know about The Source, right? Open gaming Friday nights; they have three or four different campaigns going of different levels.
Lord Nat 09-13-04, 04:59 PM	You do know about The Source, right? Open gaming Friday nights; they have three or four different campaigns going of different levels. Ya just went there last week. I just moved here like a week ago so I am just starting to find places around here and looking for a group. But I need to find work first so it might be a little before I get a new group T-T
The Vagrant 09-14-04, 12:29 AM	Yep, I live in the twin cities local area. 40 miles away to be exact but whatever. Did you join the Meetup yet? Always good to have more people. As for open gaming night on Fridays at the Source; never heard of it, but I'll look into it, thanks Thelandrach. Now then, back "on topic". Wow, we're up to an amazing number of simular stories here, I'd guess about three- maybe four! Keep them rolling in as I read all posts here. and keep track. *whips out a yellow pad of paper*
Berkano 09-14-04, 02:34 AM	So, let me get this straight.. A business owner can kick you out for any reserved reason he wants so long as he never makes it public? Couldn't an establishment then persay constantly kick out black people and just hide it in the guise of 'We didn't like their topic of conversation. Those people talk funny and it offends my customer base' His customer base being, racist bastards. Now, saying you have the right as an owner to kick someone out for merely a topic of conversation is all nice and well, but YES IT IS DISCRIMINATION. Suppose I own a cafe, I hear you're conversation say.. 'I like republicans' you say. I'm all democrat and go think to myself I don't like the topic of conversation you're speaking of, I kick you out and claim you were bad for business. And primarily democrats come to my cafe. Why not... hats. You like red, I like blue. BAM difference of opinion. Hey maybe I just don't like your choice of automobile? How much of a PRICK am i allowed to be here? Honestly... Defending someone's right to be a prick, and giving him free license to be as racist/sexist/discriminatory as they want (even so masked as it is) is always a bad idea, similar to shooting oneself in the foot. You know what the problem is here? The other customers aren't open minded and are offending my things outside their little spheres. Its no different from segregation of blacks and whites. Black walks into a white bar. A democrat inside a republican convention or vice versa. Its not what people are used to being exposed to and thus... get all irritated. I can understand the Starbucks owner making a plea to talk about something else so he can make more money, but in no way should he be allowed to throw people out cause they're not talking about something 'cool' enough. Come on people... thats just freaking rediculous. I could go in and start spouting about physics and mathmatics within modern movie production and graphical design. What about computer science? It sounds almost EXACTLY the same (as so my non-geek friends tell me) from my DND speak. If I can get thrown out for talking shop... then something is freaking wrong with America.
Grox 09-14-04, 03:11 AM	So, let me get this straight.. A business owner can kick you out for any reserved reason he wants so long as he never makes it public? Couldn't an establishment then persay constantly kick out black people and just hide it in the guise of 'We didn't like their topic of conversation. Those people talk funny and it offends my customer base' Now, saying you have the right as an owner to kick someone out for merely a topic of conversation is all nice and well, but YES IT IS DISCRIMINATION. How much of a PRICK am i allowed to be here? Honestly... Defending someone's right to be a prick, and giving him free license to be as racist/sexist/discriminatory as they want (even so masked as it is) is always a bad idea, similar to shooting oneself in the foot. You speak of "discrimination" as though it were inherently wrong. When hiring doctors, we are free to "discriminate" against people who haven't gone to medical school. When hiring firemen, we are free to "discriminate" against those who can't do the job due to physical handicaps. Your worst-case scenario of a racist shopkeeper making up pretextual reasons to eject black customers wouldn't work if he was truly discriminating on the basis of race. As long as a bunch of black customers agreed they'd suffered identical treatment, and no white customers ever did, the shopkeeper is probably liable for racial discrimination, and making up a pretty story about "the conversation" is unlikely to help the racist shopkeeper. The shopkeeper is unlikely to face any sort of criminal charge but is likely to lose in a lawsuit filed through the Commission of Human Rights and Opportunities (CHRO). The case that decided this is from the early part of the 20th century, from a city in California: Yick Wo v. Hopkins. It seems that the city council authorized a special "laundry license" dependent on inspections that whites always passed and Asians always failed. While the city produced a long and complex justification that this WASN'T racial discrimination, but just how things happened to shake out, the Court didn't accept that. You don't have to ANNOUNCE your racist intentions, or even INTEND to discriminate against a suspect class; the fact that your actions have that EFFECT is enough. Once you've proven that someone has discriminated against a "suspect class" (like a race), then that someone is in trouble unless they can prove that their actions were essential to a critical government function (which is a pretty hard thing for a shopkeeper to prove). TMK no racial discrimination has ever passed this test, except for federal prisons segregating inmates by race in the aftermath of a race riot. So arbitrarily denying services to customers based on race, religion, veteran status, or sexual orientation is likely to get you punished, fined, maybe put out of business. And yes, in America you have the right to be a prick. That's one of the things I love about it. :) It's also something that I think that most of the world has tragically wrong.
Grudthak 09-14-04, 08:16 AM	Dont be jumping up to call your lawyer yet... Bear in mind all it takes is ONE compalint from a customer and the manager is obliged to comply. If your D&D meets aree anythying like the ones my group has, you where there for a while. Dont be surprised if a big franchise store like Starbucks has a "Drinks for Duration" policy. If you guys are in a coffee shop, you are there to drink coffee. And yes, ANY store can expel you if you have been hanging around for ages doing nothing. Either find somewhere else, or drink more coffee. And for chrissakes stop whining about it... You are a D&D player, not a repressed ethnic minority. Sorry, but if you are being picked on because of D&D, then you will always have a "kick Me" sign wether you play or not!
Thelandrach 09-14-04, 10:10 AM	Stores near high schools that have signs up saying "Only three students allowed in the store at a time" are not vulnerable to age discrimination lawsuits because they have established that when too many students are in the store for them to track, stuff gets stolen. Purely as the OP described the situation, the gamers don't have much of a leg to go on. Here's the sequence: There were lots of customers in the Starbucks. A bunch of gamers showed up and set up camp. All the other customers left. End of story. If the cops had gotten called, the Starbucks manager could have said, "I didn't hear exactly what they're all talking about, or see what they're doing, but when they showed up we had a bunch of customers sitting at the tables, and now that these gamers have been here for a while, all the regular customers are gone."
wombatmaster 09-14-04, 10:52 AM	I bet you could get a free coffee or two out of it; not on legal grounds... Maybe on coffee grounds??? :D
Lord Nat 09-14-04, 11:16 AM	Yep, I live in the twin cities local area. 40 miles away to be exact but whatever. Did you join the Meetup yet? Always good to have more people. As for open gaming night on Fridays at the Source; never heard of it, but I'll look into it, thanks Thelandrach. Now then, back "on topic". Wow, we're up to an amazing number of simular stories here, I'd guess about three- maybe four! Keep them rolling in as I read all posts here. and keep track. *whips out a yellow pad of paper* Ya I joined and plan to go to the next meeting. Just moved here and don't know any players in the area so I hope this might help my find a group. The place you went is like a 5 min walk from where I am. Want me to do some thing about them >.> <,<
Berkano 09-14-04, 11:21 AM	Well, the fact remains that if the manager kicks you out its because he simply didn't like your topic of conversation ie: your geek-culture. Sounds strange doesn't it? A geek-culture. But thats what it is really. Its not normal for people to be discussing video games/ table top RPGs so therefor he's allowed to discriminate against geeks and their geeky ways. All because when some normal person hears it, they feel they want to leave. I totally understand the shopkeeper's stance. He doesn't want to lose money. But if he were to put up a policy sign that said, "Only cool-speak here please." wouldn't that strike you as umm.. I dunno... retarded? Or how about "You must think like X here." Others have been suggesting alternate reasons for their expulsion but I'm going off the premise that he ejected them for their topic of conversation, as the original post implied. Discrimination is the act of favoring one circumstance/object over another. Now when its applied to people we have 'special' provisions that say one cannot use race/sex in that equation. Why are we allowed to use 'geek-factor' then? or 'un-coolness'. or 'Topics of conversation' which don't involve eating babies? There are special patterns that are just not acceptable for this 'no reason' expulsion policy. If someone clearly is turning away blacks, its racism. If someone is clearly turning away women its sexism. If someone is turning away people who talk about DnD at coffee, its called 'elitist'. Or I dunno.. you make up some word. But the fact of the matter is its discrimination, the only difference is that being black is something you can't change with your thoughts. But why should thought conformism be protected by law? Whether we choose to allow that type of person-filtering is kinda up in the air. I for one am not in favor of it.
Escef 09-14-04, 11:34 AM	There is absolutely nothing wrong with descrimination. Descrimination goes hand in hand with the concepts of judgement and decision making. When you have free time do you choose to spend it with people you know and descriminate against strangers? I'll bet you do. When you get something to eat do you get something you like and desriminate against foods you find unpleasing? I'll bet you do. Now, it is illegal in most places (and sometimes immoral as well) to discriminate based upon age, gender, relegion, and/or sexual orientation. The idea being that all people should be treated equally. However, it is perfectly acceptable to discriminate against people based upon their actions, mannerisms, choice in music, or the effect they have upon the envirement. If I went into a Papa-Gino's, walked up to the juke-box, and played "Smack My ***** Up" by Prodigy over and over, even if female patrons and/or those with small children didn't find the song itself objectionable, I'd expect to be tossed out just for being annoying. So if management decides you're annoying or that you don't fit in with the clientel, find another place.
Berkano 09-14-04, 02:56 PM	Well you see there is one ciritcal difference between your example and the topic at hand. They were having a private conversation at a table, not playing loud roudy music throughout the entire establishment. And they were punished because someone overheard a conversation that was well... none of their f***in business. Whereas in your example you're MAKING it other people's business by flooding their ears with stimulous. Assuming the group wasn't too loud, then they're the victim of nosey people who have no right to demand the contents of someone else's private ( or rather just not-public, slight difference )conversations to be to their personal liking.
Telperion 09-14-04, 03:09 PM	Well you see there is one ciritcal difference between your example and the topic at hand. They were having a private conversation at a table, not playing loud roudy music throughout the entire establishment. And they were punished because someone overheard a conversation that was well... none of their f***in business. Do we actually know how well sound carries in a Starbucks? Do we know how loud they were actually being? I haven't read anything to contradict Escef's point. Personally I get very vocal when I'm talking in an excited manner, and quite frankly: I can get excited when it comes to D&D. It may not even occur to me that I'm speaking loudly, using strong bodylanguage and generally talking about "geek-stuff". These are the sorts of things that draw peoples' attention and that's all your regular customer needs to decide it's time to leave. When the customers leave and the geeks are still there it isn't all that hard for the manager to draw the connection between vanishing sales and the geeks.
Berkano 09-14-04, 03:39 PM	Well, whether or not the crowd was too loud is an unknown variable. I agree that if they were too loud, the Starbucks manager has every right to make them leave. Just as if they were disucssing politics or flavors of cheeze. However, I make my arguements based on the assumption that they were quiet and curtious. (Perhaps a false assumption :P).