Angels, Devils, and Demons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Angels, Devils, and Demons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Airmail
07-13-05, 05:48 PM Evening All:

This is a some what silly topic however it has honestly been on my mind the past few weeks and I figured someone on here might have found their self in the same complex.

I run a weekly game with a good group of players and have been doing so for about a year and a half now. Recently (as the characters have reached higher levels) I have found myself, not frustrated so much as perplexed as I slowly introduce my players to higher level play.

Here is the issue. As the group has risen in levels, more and more they find themselves on adventures that touch if not completely happen off plane. Due to their current amount of game play off the prime material plane they have been encountering a lot of “angels, devils, and demons” as they are really the majority of what is listed for off plane encounters. Sure there are other creatures but they are few and far between in my mind, short of simply having the group run into other core classes that is.

To be honest I really just don’t like angels, devils, and demons. To me they run too closely to Christianity, Judaism, and several other organized religions for comfort. Even setting aside all my own crap about my dismay for religion in general I find that many of the players have their own expectations as to what an “angel” or “devil” might act like due to the popularity of religion in our current day and age.

I was thinking of trying to come up with a creature or creatures that could potentially take the place of these so that there would not be all of the stigmata around it. The only problem there is the some of the most popular planes out there are The Abyss, The Seven Heavens, and the Nine Hells. At least in my game it’s that way.

Does anyone have any suggestions or input? I would like a way to give them encounters that are challenging in the same way an angel or demon might be yet unique enough to not be confused for another version of either.

Thanks,
-Airmail
Drow_Rogue
07-13-05, 06:03 PM High level challenges on the planes? How about the Yugoloths of Gehenna? Or Githyankie raiders on the Astral plane? (complete with Red Dragon cohorts).. Maybe the Efreeti ridden City of Brass in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or undead armies on the Negative Energy Plane... The formians of Mechanus might cause problems... the list goes on, not to mention the petitions, servitors and visitors of dieties realms, which include any creature you can imagine... Maybe you cross paths with one of Tiamats draconic servants, the elves of Arborea, the gnomes of Bytopia, the orcs of Acheron.... Basically, anything you can stretch your imagination to can happen.. and theres a an infinite number of demiplanes out there, who knows what wizards failed experiments or godly prisoners are held within....
Drow_Rogue
07-13-05, 06:10 PM Of course, in substituting the demons, devils and angels (which is what you really asked about, sorry *slaps self*) you could use the Yugoloths for either... maybe warring factions of Lawful and Chaotic yugoloths vie for power between the Abyss and the Nine Hells. As for angels, maybe the gods simply dont use such creatures, and use "Inevitable" type constructs, created to protect and guard. Not sure if ive been any help, but heres hoping. :)
Airmail
07-13-05, 06:15 PM Ahh thank you for the quick responses Dark Rogue, very much appreciated.

I like the idea about the Yugoloths, just might try that one. I think my group simply has had the most experience with those three planes so they are naturally drawn to what they know.

Thanks again.
Ogre4Hire
07-13-05, 07:49 PM One word: Planescape.

Seriously, if you want info on the Planes, you want to get your hands on as many old Planescape books as you can. Faces of Evil: the Fiends, is an absolute must have. It'll give you all the info on Tanar'ri, Ba'atizu, Yugoloths, and all the other fiends that you'd need to terrorize your PCs. And, since the book is 100% fluff and 0% crunch, there's no compatability issues, either.
Azzy
07-13-05, 08:08 PM To be honest I really just don’t like angels, devils, and demons. To me they run too closely to Christianity, Judaism, and several other organized religions for comfort. Even setting aside all my own crap about my dismay for religion in general I find that many of the players have their own expectations as to what an “angel” or “devil” might act like due to the popularity of religion in our current day and age.

Really, though. These creatures have little to nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian religion outside of some terminology. Since that's the case, just rename them--they already have built-in alternate terms (aasimon, baatezu, and tanar'i).
Koga:The ninja trick
07-13-05, 08:12 PM Elementals, always fun..
Evil mages, always a pain..
T3h Tarrasque awakens! Ohnoes!
And for giggles, have them fight a demon prince or devil lord, they can't be happy about your party slaughtering their minions.. :P
vivid_disorder
07-13-05, 09:33 PM Slaadi are cool and scary, because they look like big toads but they will eat you for no reason.

I don't know if they have a traditional, lawful antagonist, but I like the idea of them fighting Formians for control of a plane somewhere. I have a particular image of an enormous Death Slaad pouring the biggest kettle in the whole of the hells down a huge-mongous ant's nest.

Devils? Demons? who needs them when you can have terrifying amphibians from beyond reality getting into some serious pest control?

Then there's Rakshasas, demons with more of an Indian feel than a Christian one (some of the "western" outsiders, like the Kyton and Hound Archons, seem to take more of their inspiration from Japanese concepts of demons than judaeo-christian ideas).

I don't do OA, but I bet there are some cool oriental demons in there: or you could simply reimagine the Devils & Demons in a more Legend of the Overfiend sort of way - get rid of the bat wings and pitchforks and bring on the tentacles and baffling dialogue.
weasel fierce
07-14-05, 01:41 AM Cthulhuid extra dimensional critters are always fun. Particularly when the players realize that the monster isnt stomping on them because it hates them, or because its evil, but because it doesnt care
Eros
07-14-05, 12:04 PM Also keep in mind that really anything you want can be considered extraplanar or have the “outsider” type added to it. It just means that the PMP is not their home plane. What I normally do is add a few levels to a standard mob, maybe even give them a core class and call them “outsiders”.

Also as Azzy said, renaming them could be very useful, also maybe consider changing their physical appearance, or at least rewording your description of the creature. Just to help throw the players off. It is extremely useful when gaming with very experienced players who know every monster in the MM like the back of their hand.

Good luck.

Eros
crazysamaritan
07-14-05, 01:06 PM Hey, if you want to REALLY throw your players off, have the Archons team up with the Devils against the Demons and Eladrin.

Most people think of Good/evil, so a large Lawful/Chaotic battle will seriously mess up your players. "wtf? We're fighting angels? But they're good!!"
ravidubey
07-14-05, 07:03 PM You can also slap a template on a host of Prime creatures (axiomatic, anarchic, celestial, half celestial, fiendish, half-fiendish, elemental, half-elemental, etc.) to really throw things for a loop. Maybe the PC's get caught between Anarchic Giants (give 'em their own name, like "Kragoths") from Gladsheim vs Axiomatic Dragons of Elysium.

There's also Genies, Eladrin, Elemental Kin, Guardinals, Archons, Modrons, Demodands, and many more. My favorite are the Slaad vs. Famorians mentioned previously.

Planar Handbook and Manual of the Planes are must reads, especially since they categorize all the extraplanar races and templates by plane.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-14-05, 11:54 PM Here is the issue. As the group has risen in levels, more and more they find themselves on adventures that touch if not completely happen off plane. Due to their current amount of game play off the prime material plane they have been encountering a lot of “angels, devils, and demons” as they are really the majority of what is listed for off plane encounters. Sure there are other creatures but they are few and far between in my mind, short of simply having the group run into other core classes that is.

To be honest I really just don’t like angels, devils, and demons. To me they run too closely to Christianity, Judaism, and several other organized religions for comfort. Even setting aside all my own crap about my dismay for religion in general I find that many of the players have their own expectations as to what an “angel” or “devil” might act like due to the popularity of religion in our current day and age.

There's really no connection between the celestials and fiends of DnD and anything much from real world religions. 'Angel' never existed before 3.5e, those beings were collectively called Aasimon, 'Demon' 'Devil' and 'Daemon' were 1e terms that were not used in 2e, and the first two were introduced to an extent in 3e, though Yugoloths remain Yugoloths (Daemon hasn't been used in about two decades to describe them).

The fiends of the Abyss (Tanar'ri), Baator (Baatezu) and the Yugoloths who are native to and rule two seperate planes (Gehenna, Gray Waste, and are attempting to colonize Carceri) have their own society, their own culture, their own racial goals. You just don't get the elaboration on them in 3e to give you the same sense of seperation from any real world things.

As has been mentioned, and I'll reiterate: Planescape. For all its quality, the 3e Manual of the Planes is really just watered down Planescape.

'Faces of Evil: The Fiends', 'Hellbound: The Blood War', and various other PS sourcebooks has every aspect of the planes that you might want, and it's mostly pure flavor and detail, not dry numbers.

If you want to look at how I've handled planar encounters that revolve around things other than Demons and Devils, check out the link to my Storyhour (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77613) since that is focused on the yugoloths, lower planar politics, and currently a plot in the Astral plane revolving around githyanki, a Rakshasa working with them, and the corpses of dead gods.

There is infinitely more out there than just the fiends of the Abyss and Baator, and 'Angels'. Heck, the Aasimon/Angels aren't even native to a specific upper plane, and in terms of population they're not even the largest compared to the Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin.
Airmail
07-15-05, 11:16 AM Wow thank you for all the replies.

Much appreciated everyone!

-Airmail

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Airmail 07-13-05, 05:48 PM	Evening All: This is a some what silly topic however it has honestly been on my mind the past few weeks and I figured someone on here might have found their self in the same complex. I run a weekly game with a good group of players and have been doing so for about a year and a half now. Recently (as the characters have reached higher levels) I have found myself, not frustrated so much as perplexed as I slowly introduce my players to higher level play. Here is the issue. As the group has risen in levels, more and more they find themselves on adventures that touch if not completely happen off plane. Due to their current amount of game play off the prime material plane they have been encountering a lot of “angels, devils, and demons” as they are really the majority of what is listed for off plane encounters. Sure there are other creatures but they are few and far between in my mind, short of simply having the group run into other core classes that is. To be honest I really just don’t like angels, devils, and demons. To me they run too closely to Christianity, Judaism, and several other organized religions for comfort. Even setting aside all my own crap about my dismay for religion in general I find that many of the players have their own expectations as to what an “angel” or “devil” might act like due to the popularity of religion in our current day and age. I was thinking of trying to come up with a creature or creatures that could potentially take the place of these so that there would not be all of the stigmata around it. The only problem there is the some of the most popular planes out there are The Abyss, The Seven Heavens, and the Nine Hells. At least in my game it’s that way. Does anyone have any suggestions or input? I would like a way to give them encounters that are challenging in the same way an angel or demon might be yet unique enough to not be confused for another version of either. Thanks, -Airmail
Drow_Rogue 07-13-05, 06:03 PM	High level challenges on the planes? How about the Yugoloths of Gehenna? Or Githyankie raiders on the Astral plane? (complete with Red Dragon cohorts).. Maybe the Efreeti ridden City of Brass in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or undead armies on the Negative Energy Plane... The formians of Mechanus might cause problems... the list goes on, not to mention the petitions, servitors and visitors of dieties realms, which include any creature you can imagine... Maybe you cross paths with one of Tiamats draconic servants, the elves of Arborea, the gnomes of Bytopia, the orcs of Acheron.... Basically, anything you can stretch your imagination to can happen.. and theres a an infinite number of demiplanes out there, who knows what wizards failed experiments or godly prisoners are held within....
Drow_Rogue 07-13-05, 06:10 PM	Of course, in substituting the demons, devils and angels (which is what you really asked about, sorry slaps self) you could use the Yugoloths for either... maybe warring factions of Lawful and Chaotic yugoloths vie for power between the Abyss and the Nine Hells. As for angels, maybe the gods simply dont use such creatures, and use "Inevitable" type constructs, created to protect and guard. Not sure if ive been any help, but heres hoping. :)
Airmail 07-13-05, 06:15 PM	Ahh thank you for the quick responses Dark Rogue, very much appreciated. I like the idea about the Yugoloths, just might try that one. I think my group simply has had the most experience with those three planes so they are naturally drawn to what they know. Thanks again.
Ogre4Hire 07-13-05, 07:49 PM	One word: Planescape. Seriously, if you want info on the Planes, you want to get your hands on as many old Planescape books as you can. Faces of Evil: the Fiends, is an absolute must have. It'll give you all the info on Tanar'ri, Ba'atizu, Yugoloths, and all the other fiends that you'd need to terrorize your PCs. And, since the book is 100% fluff and 0% crunch, there's no compatability issues, either.
Azzy 07-13-05, 08:08 PM	To be honest I really just don’t like angels, devils, and demons. To me they run too closely to Christianity, Judaism, and several other organized religions for comfort. Even setting aside all my own crap about my dismay for religion in general I find that many of the players have their own expectations as to what an “angel” or “devil” might act like due to the popularity of religion in our current day and age. Really, though. These creatures have little to nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian religion outside of some terminology. Since that's the case, just rename them--they already have built-in alternate terms (aasimon, baatezu, and tanar'i).
Koga:The ninja trick 07-13-05, 08:12 PM	Elementals, always fun.. Evil mages, always a pain.. T3h Tarrasque awakens! Ohnoes! And for giggles, have them fight a demon prince or devil lord, they can't be happy about your party slaughtering their minions.. :P
vivid_disorder 07-13-05, 09:33 PM	Slaadi are cool and scary, because they look like big toads but they will eat you for no reason. I don't know if they have a traditional, lawful antagonist, but I like the idea of them fighting Formians for control of a plane somewhere. I have a particular image of an enormous Death Slaad pouring the biggest kettle in the whole of the hells down a huge-mongous ant's nest. Devils? Demons? who needs them when you can have terrifying amphibians from beyond reality getting into some serious pest control? Then there's Rakshasas, demons with more of an Indian feel than a Christian one (some of the "western" outsiders, like the Kyton and Hound Archons, seem to take more of their inspiration from Japanese concepts of demons than judaeo-christian ideas). I don't do OA, but I bet there are some cool oriental demons in there: or you could simply reimagine the Devils & Demons in a more Legend of the Overfiend sort of way - get rid of the bat wings and pitchforks and bring on the tentacles and baffling dialogue.
weasel fierce 07-14-05, 01:41 AM	Cthulhuid extra dimensional critters are always fun. Particularly when the players realize that the monster isnt stomping on them because it hates them, or because its evil, but because it doesnt care
Eros 07-14-05, 12:04 PM	Also keep in mind that really anything you want can be considered extraplanar or have the “outsider” type added to it. It just means that the PMP is not their home plane. What I normally do is add a few levels to a standard mob, maybe even give them a core class and call them “outsiders”. Also as Azzy said, renaming them could be very useful, also maybe consider changing their physical appearance, or at least rewording your description of the creature. Just to help throw the players off. It is extremely useful when gaming with very experienced players who know every monster in the MM like the back of their hand. Good luck. Eros
crazysamaritan 07-14-05, 01:06 PM	Hey, if you want to REALLY throw your players off, have the Archons team up with the Devils against the Demons and Eladrin. Most people think of Good/evil, so a large Lawful/Chaotic battle will seriously mess up your players. "wtf? We're fighting angels? But they're good!!"
ravidubey 07-14-05, 07:03 PM	You can also slap a template on a host of Prime creatures (axiomatic, anarchic, celestial, half celestial, fiendish, half-fiendish, elemental, half-elemental, etc.) to really throw things for a loop. Maybe the PC's get caught between Anarchic Giants (give 'em their own name, like "Kragoths") from Gladsheim vs Axiomatic Dragons of Elysium. There's also Genies, Eladrin, Elemental Kin, Guardinals, Archons, Modrons, Demodands, and many more. My favorite are the Slaad vs. Famorians mentioned previously. Planar Handbook and Manual of the Planes are must reads, especially since they categorize all the extraplanar races and templates by plane.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-14-05, 11:54 PM	Here is the issue. As the group has risen in levels, more and more they find themselves on adventures that touch if not completely happen off plane. Due to their current amount of game play off the prime material plane they have been encountering a lot of “angels, devils, and demons” as they are really the majority of what is listed for off plane encounters. Sure there are other creatures but they are few and far between in my mind, short of simply having the group run into other core classes that is. To be honest I really just don’t like angels, devils, and demons. To me they run too closely to Christianity, Judaism, and several other organized religions for comfort. Even setting aside all my own crap about my dismay for religion in general I find that many of the players have their own expectations as to what an “angel” or “devil” might act like due to the popularity of religion in our current day and age. There's really no connection between the celestials and fiends of DnD and anything much from real world religions. 'Angel' never existed before 3.5e, those beings were collectively called Aasimon, 'Demon' 'Devil' and 'Daemon' were 1e terms that were not used in 2e, and the first two were introduced to an extent in 3e, though Yugoloths remain Yugoloths (Daemon hasn't been used in about two decades to describe them). The fiends of the Abyss (Tanar'ri), Baator (Baatezu) and the Yugoloths who are native to and rule two seperate planes (Gehenna, Gray Waste, and are attempting to colonize Carceri) have their own society, their own culture, their own racial goals. You just don't get the elaboration on them in 3e to give you the same sense of seperation from any real world things. As has been mentioned, and I'll reiterate: Planescape. For all its quality, the 3e Manual of the Planes is really just watered down Planescape. 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends', 'Hellbound: The Blood War', and various other PS sourcebooks has every aspect of the planes that you might want, and it's mostly pure flavor and detail, not dry numbers. If you want to look at how I've handled planar encounters that revolve around things other than Demons and Devils, check out the link to my Storyhour (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77613) since that is focused on the yugoloths, lower planar politics, and currently a plot in the Astral plane revolving around githyanki, a Rakshasa working with them, and the corpses of dead gods. There is infinitely more out there than just the fiends of the Abyss and Baator, and 'Angels'. Heck, the Aasimon/Angels aren't even native to a specific upper plane, and in terms of population they're not even the largest compared to the Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin.
Airmail 07-15-05, 11:16 AM	Wow thank you for all the replies. Much appreciated everyone! -Airmail