Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thanqol 11-18-05, 11:33 PM	This has been a debate that has raged for a few hours, and I'd like to ask the general public of their thoughts. Paladin 10 vs. Fighter 10. The paladin has a special mount, the fighter has his array of bonus feats. Does the paladin's special mount cause him to win the battle? Druid 10 vs. Wizard 10. The Druid has an animal companion, the wizard has the ability manifest his will upon the tapistry of creation. Does the druid's animal companion cause him to win? Fighter5/Ashworm Dragoon 5 (PrC that gives an enhanced Ashworm mount [Sandstorm] with bonus HD etc.) vs. Fighter 10. Does the Ashworm cause the Dragoon to win the fight? And more importaintly, is this special mount worth a level? Is it worth an increased CR? Cheers.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-19-05, 03:26 AM	Couldn't tell you about the dragoon, but I can assure you paladins' mounts and druids' animal companions are factored into their power level. The only thing a druid might "win" purely because of her animal companion is a dog show.
malisteen 11-19-05, 09:23 AM	In Theory Animal Companions are class features balanced by level, while normal animals are balanced by their monatary cost or the game time and skill difficulty necessary to domesticate them. In Practice some class features are 'more equal' then others, and the same can be said of the various skills and the uses to which a character can put his or her treasure. In a campaign with all sorts of magical beasts to be domesticated, handle animal is much more valuable then it would normally be compared to other skills, thouth it still would probably be less effective then, say, Use Magic Device.
Seeker95 11-19-05, 11:24 AM	Does your Druid vs. Wizard wizard not have a familiar? In all three cases: No. No. No.
Thanqol 11-20-05, 04:16 AM	Does your Druid vs. Wizard wizard not have a familiar? In all three cases: No. No. No. Wizard would have a familiar, yes. Pretty much what I was saying, but the other guy seemed extremely stubborn about it. Then again, the Ashworm Dragoon gets at level 5 an Ashworm advanced to 9HD or CR 6. But if that's your class feature then it really shouldn't factor towards your ECL.
Vindus 11-20-05, 04:46 AM	Normally I'm apt to agree that the system is balanced, however. In the case presented the Dragoon has full opportunity to use as many of his mounts abilities as posible. Now then a worm with 90+ hp (Easily as much as many fighters at 9th-10th level) with a BAB of 9 and a STR of 32 along with a high evasion of hits rate due to an ability involved with the class make the mount and rider combo more powerful then normal for their level, like an extreamly well optomised character is often more powerful then their level says they are. In a match of 2 on one with basically a level 9 Warrior and a level 5 fighter/5 warrior, with normal equipment for the level, it is my opinion that the one would have to be higher level to survive the match without being wholely and compleatly trounced. Anyone is free to contest it but from what I see having a beast that can dish out about 17-26 damage a hit with a total +20 to hit (with two attacks a round, one being poisoned (STR poison at that)) at level 10 and a rider that can keep the mount from being harmed by attacks that would normally hit about 50-60% of the time, I think that constitutes a stronger opponent to be a fair match.
Thanqol 11-20-05, 05:19 AM	Yes, it works unless you put it like that.
Mortepierre 11-20-05, 09:14 AM	At low levels, I am inclined to think that class features (which include companions, familiars, etc..) do not influence CR much. At high levels, however, that's not the case anymore. Frankly, saying that a Fighter 20 represents the same level of danger as - for instance - a Cleric 20 who can have any number of summoned creatures (up to powerful extraplanar entities) as slaves/allies (if only for a short while) is plain crazy. All the feats in the world will never equal the ability to snap your fingers and have a major demon appear to do your bidding!