ANNOUNCEMENT: Officially released rules for the Polymorph subschool! [Archive] - Wizards Community

ANNOUNCEMENT: Officially released rules for the Polymorph subschool! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raven Dark
05-02-06, 04:06 AM Please redirect your discussions to this thread:
Easy to Read Polymorph Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8501182#post8501182).

It is linked as an important thread on this site and will help keep the boards from becoming spammed too much. Thank you for your cooperation.

Also, the new rules for the Polymorph subschool can be found here:
Player's Handbook Excerpt on the Polymorph Subschool (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5&origin=).
Witch
05-02-06, 08:29 AM And the usefulness of Polymorph is gone for good, now.

Specific spells for specific creatures? I thought the use of Polymorph was versatility. They both nerfed its power ánd its versatility. Nerf one or the other, but not both.
DungeonMaster
05-02-06, 09:17 AM I'm not completely against this version of the spell, certainly it's better than the 3.5 PHB (well it's hard to do worse than the 3.5 PHB spells).
The loss of class abilities is too broad spectrum however. As it stands you lose your familiar, your animal companion when you polymorph. A human paladin loses his pokemount if you turn him into an elf, and all his abilities too. It's really another cobbled together fix for a spell that needs a new edition of the game to be properly adjusted.
Balor von Balorvitch
05-02-06, 09:27 AM .....................
The loss of class abilities is too broad spectrum however. As it stands you lose your familiar, your animal companion when you polymorph. A human paladin loses his pokemount if you turn him into an elf, and all his abilities too. It's really another cobbled together fix for a spell that needs a new edition of the game to be properly adjusted.

not to mention a druid loses his wildshape while wild shaped :D
Zherog
05-02-06, 09:32 AM not to mention a druid loses his wildshape while wild shaped :D

Not true. Errata was issued on the druid wild shape. It's now based on the "alternate form" ability found in the Monster Manual.

To see the changes for the druid, download the PHB errata and the MM errata.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-02-06, 09:36 AM Oh, goodie. Except for the loss of casting, they made it worse. Now not only do you gain type and subtype (which was the most broken part of the spell), you now gain SLA's and Su's.

The new monomorph spells already show that they have no intention of simply not giving you forms with cheap SLAs and Su's and the fact is that it doesn't even make sense that you can use magic to become an adult red dragon and apperently no other kind of dragon at all ever.

It is entirely possible to fix polymorph as a spell, but it really requires better classification and documentation of monster abilities and class features and a valid way of estimating the power of a new form.

What I'd really like to hear is why they don't use the ECL system for things spellcasters do (controled undead, summons, servants and transformations). If its supposed to be good enough to balance a character, how come it isn't good enough for spellcasters?
Raven Dark
05-02-06, 11:21 AM not to mention a druid loses his wildshape while wild shaped :D

Not true. Errata was issued on the druid wild shape. It's now based on the "alternate form" ability found in the Monster Manual.

To see the changes for the druid, download the PHB errata and the MM errata.

If you all would simply see my Easy to Read Errata Thread, confusison such as this could be easily avoided in the future. That is why I created it. That is why I continue to maintain it. That is why the WizO's marked it as an important thread.

Please, please, please make good use of my hard work. I did it for you! :)
MrkGrismer
05-02-06, 03:21 PM From what I can tell the PHB2 Polymorph school has no real affect on Alter Self, Polymorph or Shapechange:

Spells That Have Come Before
For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).
Raven Dark
05-02-06, 04:34 PM From what I can tell the PHB2 Polymorph school has no real affect on Alter Self, Polymorph or Shapechange:

Until the book is officially released, how do you know they didn't make further changes to the spells? All we have so far is a preview of select limited material.
MrkGrismer
05-02-06, 05:22 PM Until the book is officially released, how do you know they didn't make further changes to the spells? All we have so far is a preview of select limited material.

Because until a rule change is actually released in print (including the official erratta) it does not exist. How do we know that 4th edition doesn't make everybody into Smurfs?
Vaelan
05-02-06, 06:20 PM If its supposed to be good enough to balance a character, how come it isn't good enough for spellcasters?
They know, just as we do, that ECL was never about balance as much as deterring people from playing non-PHB races. Since it is seen as more acceptable to polymorph into something than actually be it, they used a standard that is almost reasonable.

I am thoroughly convinced that the recent "polymorph changes" are intended to prod people into disregarding the rules and making up their own.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-02-06, 07:40 PM They know, just as we do, that ECL was never about balance as much as deterring people from playing non-PHB races. Since it is seen as more acceptable to polymorph into something than actually be it, they used a standard that is almost reasonable.
Oh, I know ECL is meant to keep you from playing non-pretties, but HD is THE worst way to do it. CR is decent, but not really. The Leadership cohort system is the best I've seen but would need a retool for this.

To continue using HD as a factor (now for deciding what level the monomorphs are), they're ensuring that polymoph is never, ever balanced. Then again, since we get SLAs and Su's yet get magically stupider, maybe that wasn't the intent. Seem to me it was more 'lets just make it take less adjudication time and be done with it' than anything.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 05-02-06, 04:06 AM	Please redirect your discussions to this thread: Easy to Read Polymorph Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8501182#post8501182). It is linked as an important thread on this site and will help keep the boards from becoming spammed too much. Thank you for your cooperation. Also, the new rules for the Polymorph subschool can be found here: Player's Handbook Excerpt on the Polymorph Subschool (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5&origin=).
Witch 05-02-06, 08:29 AM	And the usefulness of Polymorph is gone for good, now. Specific spells for specific creatures? I thought the use of Polymorph was versatility. They both nerfed its power ánd its versatility. Nerf one or the other, but not both.
DungeonMaster 05-02-06, 09:17 AM	I'm not completely against this version of the spell, certainly it's better than the 3.5 PHB (well it's hard to do worse than the 3.5 PHB spells). The loss of class abilities is too broad spectrum however. As it stands you lose your familiar, your animal companion when you polymorph. A human paladin loses his pokemount if you turn him into an elf, and all his abilities too. It's really another cobbled together fix for a spell that needs a new edition of the game to be properly adjusted.
Balor von Balorvitch 05-02-06, 09:27 AM	..................... The loss of class abilities is too broad spectrum however. As it stands you lose your familiar, your animal companion when you polymorph. A human paladin loses his pokemount if you turn him into an elf, and all his abilities too. It's really another cobbled together fix for a spell that needs a new edition of the game to be properly adjusted. not to mention a druid loses his wildshape while wild shaped :D
Zherog 05-02-06, 09:32 AM	not to mention a druid loses his wildshape while wild shaped :D Not true. Errata was issued on the druid wild shape. It's now based on the "alternate form" ability found in the Monster Manual. To see the changes for the druid, download the PHB errata and the MM errata.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-02-06, 09:36 AM	Oh, goodie. Except for the loss of casting, they made it worse. Now not only do you gain type and subtype (which was the most broken part of the spell), you now gain SLA's and Su's. The new monomorph spells already show that they have no intention of simply not giving you forms with cheap SLAs and Su's and the fact is that it doesn't even make sense that you can use magic to become an adult red dragon and apperently no other kind of dragon at all ever. It is entirely possible to fix polymorph as a spell, but it really requires better classification and documentation of monster abilities and class features and a valid way of estimating the power of a new form. What I'd really like to hear is why they don't use the ECL system for things spellcasters do (controled undead, summons, servants and transformations). If its supposed to be good enough to balance a character, how come it isn't good enough for spellcasters?
Raven Dark 05-02-06, 11:21 AM	not to mention a druid loses his wildshape while wild shaped :D Not true. Errata was issued on the druid wild shape. It's now based on the "alternate form" ability found in the Monster Manual. To see the changes for the druid, download the PHB errata and the MM errata. If you all would simply see my Easy to Read Errata Thread, confusison such as this could be easily avoided in the future. That is why I created it. That is why I continue to maintain it. That is why the WizO's marked it as an important thread. Please, please, please make good use of my hard work. I did it for you! :)
MrkGrismer 05-02-06, 03:21 PM	From what I can tell the PHB2 Polymorph school has no real affect on Alter Self, Polymorph or Shapechange: Spells That Have Come Before For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).
Raven Dark 05-02-06, 04:34 PM	From what I can tell the PHB2 Polymorph school has no real affect on Alter Self, Polymorph or Shapechange: Until the book is officially released, how do you know they didn't make further changes to the spells? All we have so far is a preview of select limited material.
MrkGrismer 05-02-06, 05:22 PM	Until the book is officially released, how do you know they didn't make further changes to the spells? All we have so far is a preview of select limited material. Because until a rule change is actually released in print (including the official erratta) it does not exist. How do we know that 4th edition doesn't make everybody into Smurfs?
Vaelan 05-02-06, 06:20 PM	If its supposed to be good enough to balance a character, how come it isn't good enough for spellcasters? They know, just as we do, that ECL was never about balance as much as deterring people from playing non-PHB races. Since it is seen as more acceptable to polymorph into something than actually be it, they used a standard that is almost reasonable. I am thoroughly convinced that the recent "polymorph changes" are intended to prod people into disregarding the rules and making up their own.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-02-06, 07:40 PM	They know, just as we do, that ECL was never about balance as much as deterring people from playing non-PHB races. Since it is seen as more acceptable to polymorph into something than actually be it, they used a standard that is almost reasonable. Oh, I know ECL is meant to keep you from playing non-pretties, but HD is THE worst way to do it. CR is decent, but not really. The Leadership cohort system is the best I've seen but would need a retool for this. To continue using HD as a factor (now for deciding what level the monomorphs are), they're ensuring that polymoph is never, ever balanced. Then again, since we get SLAs and Su's yet get magically stupider, maybe that wasn't the intent. Seem to me it was more 'lets just make it take less adjudication time and be done with it' than anything.