Another alignment question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another alignment question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
smeagol_lied
12-27-06, 10:20 AM Alright, a party of adventurers aids a (NG) human village in a 'war' with a nearby (NE) goblin tribe. They help the humans slaughter most of the tribe, and the leader, and the remaining goblins surrrender. They are taken prisoner by the human village. There is no death penalty in said village, and the goblins are put in the prison, with no equipment. They have no hope of escaping, and in te prison they are violently abused. The characters return to the village and discover what has happened to the surviving goblins.

My question is, what would a CG character do? Would they attempt to free the goblins, even though they are evil? What about a LG character? What if the goblins were put to work as slave labourers in a mine (if it was a mining village)? If they are enslaved, the village can be neutral.
Rafe_113
12-27-06, 10:53 AM Well, I suppose that would depend on how they are being "violently abused". If they are being worked to death for the good of the village, as in a mining camp as you said....I'd say that is probably permissable. But, if they are being openly tortured for no apparent reason or simply for revenge, then I'd say that would cause an alignment shift for the village.

As far as whether or not to free them? That's a slippery slope. I'd say a CG PC would probably turn a cheek and look the other way. "Sure, they are being tortured, but they're evil....." Where as a LG PC may or may not attempt to free them. If he chooses to look the other way, does it cause an alignment shift since he is not upholding standards? Or if he does help them out and set them free, does aiding an evil creature/s cause an alignment shift?

In the end, it would be up to the DM. Everyone's take on alignment is different. Sometimes, a PC is put in a situation where there is no clear right/wrong decision. Or no clear good/evil aspect. I'd say this is one of those.

After reading this, I realize I have been no help what so ever.....Sorry.
Escef
12-27-06, 11:28 AM A lawful hero would try to solve the problem within the limits of the sysem, whereas the chaotic wouldn't care if the law was broken in the solution. As for what they do, that's up to them.

The chaotic character might throw his hands up in disgust, being frustrated with the whole affair. They faught the goblins to protect the village, and now the goblins need to be protected from the village?

The lawful hero might decide talking with the townfolk to be a waste of time. Perhaps he'd go to the regional ruler, or take steps to make himself the new sheriff (without resorting to murder, of course) so that he can change how the prison is run.

Maybe the chaotic character will go with the more lawful and diplomatic solution, seeing it as the most efficient way (after all, leting the goblins loose would just substitute one problem for another).

It also depends whether the characters favor good over law/chaos or vice versa.
Orchomenos
12-27-06, 11:53 AM Alright, a party of adventurers aids a (NG) human village (...) they are violently abused. The characters return to the village and discover what has happened to the surviving goblins.

Make up your mind. If the villagers are being evil against the goblins, the village is no longer NG. But if the fact that the village is NG is set in marble, then the goblins wouldn't be so violently abused.

Anyway, as much as Good adventurers would be disgusted by NE goblins, they would also be disgusted by any sensible creature being held captive and abused for no reason. A LG character would attempt to create laws to have prisonners being treated decently. A CG character could start riots, use vandalism and intimidation for the same reasons. In the end, the CG could probably strike a verbal deal with the goblin to free them if they flee and never return.
OravennasBrother
12-27-06, 12:21 PM Define "Abusing" and that may help. My big question is "How would the player Characters discover these abuses?" IF they don't know what is going on, then no violation of alignment is possible. If the "Abuse" is the result of one or two guards, then the PC's can get the Guards disciplined within the rules of the realm, or at least releived of guard duty. If the abuse is systematic, then they may need to do something more.
High Octane
12-27-06, 12:51 PM Well apparantly the OP figures as many people do that good = pink and evil = green.

Anyway, in such a situation the chaotic character would show outrage and demand that the abuse stop. If the people do it anyway, he would probably take action in some form, up to and including helping the goblins escape. He would tell them to never return.

A lawful character would petition and work within the system as best he could to get the prisoners treated mercifully, but wouldnt go outside the law to help them.

Of course this is all theory strictly going on characters alignment, their personalities may vary. The chaotic person doesnt HAVE to break the law, and for that matter the lawful one may break it. Alignments are at best a compass, not a straightjacket.
Millennium
12-27-06, 01:14 PM Prisoner abuse, huh? There are many ways that characters of varying alignments could act in this situation, but here's one example for each:

NG: Attempt to ease the suffering of the goblins, perhaps going into the prison and using healing or some other means. If the situation truly doesn't look like it's ever going to change, then resort to one of the two methods below.

CG: Attempt to free the goblins. The villagers have clearly turned their back on their Good ideals, and don't deserve to keep prisoners if they're going to treat them this badly.

LG: Attempt to convince the villagers to stop abusing the goblins. Keeping them imprisoned may be just, but abusing them is another matter entirely.
smeagol_lied
12-27-06, 01:58 PM Ok, so let me elaborate on this.

The village is NG as a whole, i.e. a majority. The prison wardens are abusing the goblins because they are goblins and POW. Maybe these guys are CN or N.
kelvinaw273
12-27-06, 03:24 PM Based on your description the prison guards are evil. Now let me throw a few curve-balls in:

1) Does the village have the surplus production required to maintain such a prison?

2) What is wrong with exileing the goblins instead? It's a cheaper, more humane method of getting rid of them. They can either be marched out of the local area, or have a designated area set aside for them kind of like a reservation.

This entire subject falls into the "are monsters evil by nature or by nurture" catagory, also known as the "can paladins kill orc babies?" question.
OravennasBrother
12-27-06, 04:12 PM 1) Does the village have the surplus production required to maintain such a prison?
If the Goblins are put to work in mines then they earn their own keep - this was a historical method for dealing with criminals (beside the old standby of execution).
As the OP Clarified the abuse is the product of a minority of the populace - the solution is to inform the NG authorities and let them deal with it. A given party need not (indeed cannot) get involved in every single thing that happens and dealing with prison/mine guards seems rather insignificant.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
smeagol_lied 12-27-06, 10:20 AM	Alright, a party of adventurers aids a (NG) human village in a 'war' with a nearby (NE) goblin tribe. They help the humans slaughter most of the tribe, and the leader, and the remaining goblins surrrender. They are taken prisoner by the human village. There is no death penalty in said village, and the goblins are put in the prison, with no equipment. They have no hope of escaping, and in te prison they are violently abused. The characters return to the village and discover what has happened to the surviving goblins. My question is, what would a CG character do? Would they attempt to free the goblins, even though they are evil? What about a LG character? What if the goblins were put to work as slave labourers in a mine (if it was a mining village)? If they are enslaved, the village can be neutral.
Rafe_113 12-27-06, 10:53 AM	Well, I suppose that would depend on how they are being "violently abused". If they are being worked to death for the good of the village, as in a mining camp as you said....I'd say that is probably permissable. But, if they are being openly tortured for no apparent reason or simply for revenge, then I'd say that would cause an alignment shift for the village. As far as whether or not to free them? That's a slippery slope. I'd say a CG PC would probably turn a cheek and look the other way. "Sure, they are being tortured, but they're evil....." Where as a LG PC may or may not attempt to free them. If he chooses to look the other way, does it cause an alignment shift since he is not upholding standards? Or if he does help them out and set them free, does aiding an evil creature/s cause an alignment shift? In the end, it would be up to the DM. Everyone's take on alignment is different. Sometimes, a PC is put in a situation where there is no clear right/wrong decision. Or no clear good/evil aspect. I'd say this is one of those. After reading this, I realize I have been no help what so ever.....Sorry.
Escef 12-27-06, 11:28 AM	A lawful hero would try to solve the problem within the limits of the sysem, whereas the chaotic wouldn't care if the law was broken in the solution. As for what they do, that's up to them. The chaotic character might throw his hands up in disgust, being frustrated with the whole affair. They faught the goblins to protect the village, and now the goblins need to be protected from the village? The lawful hero might decide talking with the townfolk to be a waste of time. Perhaps he'd go to the regional ruler, or take steps to make himself the new sheriff (without resorting to murder, of course) so that he can change how the prison is run. Maybe the chaotic character will go with the more lawful and diplomatic solution, seeing it as the most efficient way (after all, leting the goblins loose would just substitute one problem for another). It also depends whether the characters favor good over law/chaos or vice versa.
Orchomenos 12-27-06, 11:53 AM	Alright, a party of adventurers aids a (NG) human village (...) they are violently abused. The characters return to the village and discover what has happened to the surviving goblins. Make up your mind. If the villagers are being evil against the goblins, the village is no longer NG. But if the fact that the village is NG is set in marble, then the goblins wouldn't be so violently abused. Anyway, as much as Good adventurers would be disgusted by NE goblins, they would also be disgusted by any sensible creature being held captive and abused for no reason. A LG character would attempt to create laws to have prisonners being treated decently. A CG character could start riots, use vandalism and intimidation for the same reasons. In the end, the CG could probably strike a verbal deal with the goblin to free them if they flee and never return.
OravennasBrother 12-27-06, 12:21 PM	Define "Abusing" and that may help. My big question is "How would the player Characters discover these abuses?" IF they don't know what is going on, then no violation of alignment is possible. If the "Abuse" is the result of one or two guards, then the PC's can get the Guards disciplined within the rules of the realm, or at least releived of guard duty. If the abuse is systematic, then they may need to do something more.
High Octane 12-27-06, 12:51 PM	Well apparantly the OP figures as many people do that good = pink and evil = green. Anyway, in such a situation the chaotic character would show outrage and demand that the abuse stop. If the people do it anyway, he would probably take action in some form, up to and including helping the goblins escape. He would tell them to never return. A lawful character would petition and work within the system as best he could to get the prisoners treated mercifully, but wouldnt go outside the law to help them. Of course this is all theory strictly going on characters alignment, their personalities may vary. The chaotic person doesnt HAVE to break the law, and for that matter the lawful one may break it. Alignments are at best a compass, not a straightjacket.
Millennium 12-27-06, 01:14 PM	Prisoner abuse, huh? There are many ways that characters of varying alignments could act in this situation, but here's one example for each: NG: Attempt to ease the suffering of the goblins, perhaps going into the prison and using healing or some other means. If the situation truly doesn't look like it's ever going to change, then resort to one of the two methods below. CG: Attempt to free the goblins. The villagers have clearly turned their back on their Good ideals, and don't deserve to keep prisoners if they're going to treat them this badly. LG: Attempt to convince the villagers to stop abusing the goblins. Keeping them imprisoned may be just, but abusing them is another matter entirely.
smeagol_lied 12-27-06, 01:58 PM	Ok, so let me elaborate on this. The village is NG as a whole, i.e. a majority. The prison wardens are abusing the goblins because they are goblins and POW. Maybe these guys are CN or N.
kelvinaw273 12-27-06, 03:24 PM	Based on your description the prison guards are evil. Now let me throw a few curve-balls in: 1) Does the village have the surplus production required to maintain such a prison? 2) What is wrong with exileing the goblins instead? It's a cheaper, more humane method of getting rid of them. They can either be marched out of the local area, or have a designated area set aside for them kind of like a reservation. This entire subject falls into the "are monsters evil by nature or by nurture" catagory, also known as the "can paladins kill orc babies?" question.
OravennasBrother 12-27-06, 04:12 PM	1) Does the village have the surplus production required to maintain such a prison? If the Goblins are put to work in mines then they earn their own keep - this was a historical method for dealing with criminals (beside the old standby of execution). As the OP Clarified the abuse is the product of a minority of the populace - the solution is to inform the NG authorities and let them deal with it. A given party need not (indeed cannot) get involved in every single thing that happens and dealing with prison/mine guards seems rather insignificant.