Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pyritefoolsgold 01-26-06, 04:20 PM	You are a level three paladin, being sent to a barbarian tribe to make an offering of peace, and negotiate an end to the periodic raiding the barbarians had done on the local villages, (which were mostly in response to the villager's incursions on barbarian hunting grounds.) you are warned that the barbarians have many traditions that you would find "troubling" but that they will not bend in their ways. One particular thing is that the tribe is fairly misogynistic, believing women to be worth little. You arrive at the tribe's campground, and are greeted warmly. When you are brought to the leader of the tribe, he offers you any unclaimed woman you see as yours, as a gesture of good faith. You of course politely refuse his offer, and things proceed. After the negotiation is complete, You are invited to watch a series of ritual combats, and even partake in one against the chief, in which he defeats you soundly. At the end, there are two participants in an "Honor duel." In which one barbarian seeks to claim another's wife. You try to argue against a fight to the death, but the chief only glares at you and ignores your arguments. The duel begins, and the challenger wins. He claims the wife, but it is revealed to you that the loser of the duel had a daughter, who his killer refuses to claim. The cheif calls "Who of the tribe will claim this girl, to be their wife?" No one does, as no one wants the daughter of a discrased warrior. "then she is nothing to us, and will be dead to us." Archers raise bows to execute her. You make a quick descision, and call out "Cheif, did you not say that I could claim any unclaimed woman of your tribe?" The cheif replies "Yes, you may." Triumphantly you call out "Then I claim her as mine." The chief looks darkly at you. "In our tribe, your claim must be consummated--immediately. You have the privacy of the tent, but she will be examined later. A girl incapable of satisfying her husband would be a disgrace to our tribe." This hits you rather hard. The girl is fourteen, and is beyond reason with grief at her fathers death. She does not understand when you try to explain to her. You have three choices. 1: Claim the girl, and commit an act of rape. 2: Leave the girl to be executed. 3: Challenge the chief (who is a better fighter than you) and risk war. 4: Attempt to flee with the girl, very likely getting you both killed. Your god will not intervene, your order of knights would be hard pressed to meet the barbarians in all-out war, and would be weakened when facing other enemies, and the barbarians will not shake from their traditions. Which would you choose? What should be the consequences of this choice? What might other character classes and alignments choose? I, personally, think that the third option is the most paladin-like.
Seeker95 01-26-06, 05:18 PM	You claimed her as your wife. Your word is your bond. She is your wife. There is no rape. Consummate and take her with you.
Amaril 01-26-06, 05:35 PM	It's still rape if she's unwilling and you force it upon her regardless of whether or not she is your wife. Rape among spouses does occur in the real world, as saddening as that sounds. Oh, and the paladin would sacrifice his life for hers. Additionally, the paladin could argue that he will not consummate with her immediately. Since he is not a member of the tribe, claiming the wife would automatically remove her as a member of the tribe, and thus she would no longer be bound by its laws. Remember, Paladins are rather charismatic, so his Diplomacy check should be enough to convince them.
Phyrrus 01-26-06, 05:51 PM	Well thats a rather... intriguing situation, but I'd have to agree with Seeker, with a few nitpcks of details. - The girl is fourteen: in a barbaric culture, she's old enough to bear children, and thus liable to be of age for marriage. (I know the given info implies that this doesn't happen till they're older, but is that perhaps modern thoughts on the subject creeping into the game?) - The girl is beyond all reason: Again, in a barbaric culture like this, where women are treated as property, and to-the-death combat is not uncommon, I have doubts she'd be 'beyond all reason'. Yes, she would be greif stricken, however, she's also as likely to be practical enough to realize that the Paladin is doing her a favor, even if it does mean sleeping with a stranger. - Besides, being lawful, shouldn't the Pally be inclined to to as the cheif says, considering its tribe law? (ok, thats just being a little silly, but it depends how the Pally views hit dedication ot lawfullness. Does it involve honoring other cultures laws? and does following this law betray his views of good?) Either way, thats an excellent opportunity for roleplaying, wish tough choices like this came up more often in our groups games.
JulesCARV 01-26-06, 06:37 PM	Perhaps this is a rather technical solution to what is supposed to be a moral problem, but if "examined" means "seeing if her hymen is intact," and most girls in this tribe don't do enough athletics and such to break their hymens before hand... well, there are ways of breaking someone's hymen besides penile penetration :/. Not sure if that would be any less humiliating or violating for the damsel-in-distress in question, though. It might also involve a bit of deception, claiming that the paladin had done the deed.
Shotgun_badger 01-26-06, 06:51 PM	hehe does your DM read this webcomic http://www.dominic-deegan.com/ by any chance? ;) Anyway on the topic, I agree with the third option is the LEAST palidin like. I mean in war many innocent people will die, while in this one only one would. It's a horrid situation but in my opinion it is better then sending two peoples into a bloody war.
Dhavaer 01-26-06, 07:44 PM	hehe does your DM read this webcomic http://www.dominic-deegan.com/ by any chance? ;) Anyway on the topic, I agree with the third option is the LEAST palidin like. I mean in war many innocent people will die, while in this one only one would. It's a horrid situation but in my opinion it is better then sending two peoples into a bloody war. That's what I was thinking too. Personally, I don't think Stonewater had a lot of choice.
Ardan The Avenger 01-26-06, 08:01 PM	You claimed her as your wife. Your word is your bond. She is your wife. There is no rape. Consummate and take her with you. This is what we call "a winner".
Dragoon 01-26-06, 08:34 PM	This problem is from Dominic Deegan, and I think it is a no-win situation. Sadly, this is one of those situations where you do your best to come up with what others may call the "lesser of two evils." Or in this case more. The most the "hero" can do is choose option one, barter for one night, explain the situation to her. If she consents, done. If she doesn't cut the back of the tent and bolt. We all know what happens already, so the discussion on what should have happened is moot. What is done is done. If you can change the past, come speak to me, we need to have a long talk about morality and the time stream. Now, here is the thing: is it right for US to question what has been done? Yeah, a bit off topic, you really shouldn't let me do that you know, but I think it can clip the edges of the post a bit.
JulesCARV 01-26-06, 09:02 PM	I don't think that the options have been exhausted by the possibilities presented. Things to consider: -Try to argue with it from their perspective ("If she is my property, then surely it is my choice whether to take her or not, not yours. If you insist that I do this when I don't want to, you are infringing on my rights over my property.") -Bribery -Feigning impotence ("I tried, but over the past few days, I haven't been able to have an erection. I couldn't, but it's not her: it's probably all of the stress of all of this travelling and diplomacy. I just feel distracted and can't get in the mood. I'll have sex with her once we get back home, and I have fewer things on my mind.") -Make up another excuse ("She's menstruating now. I'll take her in a few days, once she's clean again." This one might be too easily falsified by the matron's inspection, but perhaps it could be faked.) -Use your diplomatic authority to offer the barbarians a slightly better deal if you don't have to do it right away. -Feign having raped her. (break hymen some other way, maybe put some flour/water mixture or semen (from self stimulation) on upper thighs, mess up her hair, etc)
Darth K'Trava 01-26-06, 09:06 PM	You claimed her as your wife. Your word is your bond. She is your wife. There is no rape. Consummate and take her with you. I'm in total agreement. And if there's time, the paladin can explain things to the girl so she's not so resistant to him. After that, then they can have a marriage in name only if it comes down to that. It wouldn't be the first time that two strangers have been married.... used to happen all the time.
Darth K'Trava 01-26-06, 09:08 PM	I don't think that the options have been exhausted by the possibilities presented. Things to consider: -Try to argue with it from their perspective ("If she is my property, then surely it is my choice whether to take her or not, not yours. If you insist that I do this when I don't want to, you are infringing on my rights over my property.") -Bribery -Feigning impotence ("I tried, but over the past few days, I haven't been able to have an erection. I couldn't, but it's not her: it's probably all of the stress of all of this travelling and diplomacy. I just feel distracted and can't get in the mood. I'll have sex with her once we get back home, and I have fewer things on my mind.") -Make up another excuse ("She's menstruating now. I'll take her in a few days, once she's clean again." This one might be too easily falsified by the matron's inspection, but perhaps it could be faked.) -Use your diplomatic authority to offer the barbarians a slightly better deal if you don't have to do it right away. -Feign having raped her. (break hymen some other way, maybe put some flour/water mixture or semen (from ************) on upper thighs, mess up her hair, etc) All of which would violate his Code.
JulesCARV 01-26-06, 09:31 PM	I don't think "try to argue with it from their perspective" or "use diplomatic authority" would violate the code. Besides, I think that while all of these options might violate the code, none of them violate it quite as egregiously as raping her. I mean, come on, it's pretty silly to say, "I can't feign impotence because that would violate my moral code, so I'll rape a 14-year old girl instead!" I mean, really: perhaps sometimes you have to pick an evil, but if so, pick the lesser one, not the greater one ;) .
Eital 01-26-06, 09:57 PM	If I remember right, the book of exhalted deeds said that choosing the lesser evil was never a good deed (an exhalted deed, at least). So, if this Paladin was efectively the purest soul on earth, the best thing he could do is, first and foremost, try to convince them that he will have her whenever she agrees with it, bla bla bla... if that's not possible, ensuring the wellfare of the girl is the most important thing: you cannot risk to make a war, so, the best thing you can do is give the girl some money, summon your horse, make him take her to the nearest town while you create a diversion: start attacking everyone... of course, never harm them: feint, make it seem like you are missing, etc. Yes, they will probably kill you, but the girl will be safe and in the future, negotiations with the barbarians by the townspeople may be reopened... Still, a situation were determining "success" is a little hard.
Seeker95 01-26-06, 10:12 PM	Besides, I think that while all of these options might violate the code, none of them violate it quite as egregiously as raping her.You're able to play a fantasy roleplaying game in which there are paladins, dragons, sentient non-humans, magic, many gods from many pantheons and a warrior can fall into molten lava and live. But you can't get past the late-20th-century western-centric notion that an arranged marriage is morally wrong? That she is 14 makes her an adult in all but the most recent of western euro-centric societies. That she comes from a culture that trades women as commodities is a notion alive and well even today. If you are willing to argue that consummating the arranged marriage in this scenario is rape, you probably better retire every D&D paladin right now. Killing an orc is murder. Taking a discovered treasure is theft. And detecting evil without first receiving permission is a violation of Miranda rights. :rolleyes:
JulesCARV 01-26-06, 10:29 PM	Oh give me a break. Morality may be different in D&D, but that isn't a license to total moral relativism. Notice what I said that you quoted: "all of these options might violate the code, none of them violate it quite as egregiously as raping her." In short, maybe you can get away with any of the choices, and still be a paladin. It's a tough situation, after all. Or maybe you can't get away with any of them, because any deviation at all from the code is wrong. What I can't accept is that rape is a BETTER option, than, say, offering the chief a few hundred gp if he'll let you not do the deed. If you want to get rid of alignment in your game, and allow paladins to be paladins regardless of actions (maybe detect evil does nothing, but smite evil would work on all enemies. Fair trade? Not sure.), then go ahead. Plenty of games don't use alignment, and that's fine. Or, if you want to say that this paladin is held to some exalted standard, and sometimes there is no way out, and that he's going to end up losing his paladin-hood or dying either way here, then go ahead. Being a paladin is tough, and sometimes there are no choices which allow you to retain the purity of character needed for the task. But don't tell me that making up some lame little excuse ("I can't get it up!" for example) is worse than rape. Oh, and it's not an arranged marriage in the scenario. It's a marriage unilaterally choosen by you, without the other party's consent. You do it for her own good, but that isn't the same as you having no choice in the matter (as it is with a real arranged marriage).
WhiteRaven810 01-26-06, 10:37 PM	I'd argue that this is a no-win situation. As a Paladin is Lawful, and his mission is to prevent warfare, he cannot endanger the chances of himself making a peace pact. To do so would be disobeying legtimate authority. Also to be remembered is how the Paladin's god would translate the act. Gruumsh certainly approves, and may spite any follower who wouldn't treat a women thusly. However Pelor, Cuthbert, or Heirinious (sp) may smite such an act. It also has to factored in how much religon plays into the world. I find the subject of bedding a fourteen year old a taboo. Note that taboo does not nessiary designate wrong though. I suppose if no alternate method works, it's time to roll a length of sheep intestine over your Foot Soldier. Having a women of the tribe may also create a "spirtual" link between the Paladin and cheiftan. Such a bond could make diplomancy an easier task. The above are simply my thoughts as I work though this dilemma. My solution is to claim her as property, and demand that you will do with her as you like, when you like. You may have to stand your ground, but doing so may earn additional respect from the tribe. P.S. - It should be noted that this post should of been placed on the Mature section of the board. But meh.
Ghostwheel 01-26-06, 11:00 PM	I wanted to offer my initial reaction to the O.P. before reading the other responses, so here goes... Simply claim her as your own, but explain that your recent exertions and wounds have left you less than capable of such strenuous activity. Add that you will present her to your family/order and are fairly confident that she would make a good wife for one of your family/order. There should always be more choices than a simple imposed list of options. I have provided one.
Ghostwheel 01-26-06, 11:16 PM	And, for the record, rape is the most heinous crime that does not kill. It is, in fact, a worse crime than many that do kill. Do not for a moment consider rape to be a sexual crime. It is a perverted crime of violence that employs sex as one of it's tools.
Yabanjin 01-27-06, 12:11 AM	Kobayashi-Maru. Each DM to judge for themselves. That situation seems like a set-up. I would have to say that the Barbarian Tribe would very likely respect the 'holiness' of the paladin (especially if he can demonstrate it a bit) and therefore respect his own religious taboos. This should give the paladin a bit of leeway regarding the situation with the girl. Furthermore, the paladin's deity knows he is 'just a mortal being,' hence the provision for seeking absolution by doing some sort of penance. Darth K'Trava, I'm a bit surprised that you think Originally Posted by Seeker95 You claimed her as your wife. Your word is your bond. She is your wife. There is no rape. Consummate and take her with you. such a act with a young girl is not a violation of the paladin's code, but JulesCARV's ideas are a violation. The rest of my response can be found here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8326094#post8326094)
PrairieChicken 01-27-06, 12:35 AM	Try forgetting what you would do to keep your chars paladin-hood, and maybe focus on what your character could do in this situation (which is a very interesting one). I dont believe that any of the acts would make you loose your paladin-hood outright, but then again, I play in relatively lax campaigns as far as alignment goes. Ofcourse, that being said, there are ways to try to get out of the situation... as some mentioned previously, which I completely agree with.
Avatar28 01-27-06, 12:53 AM	I don't think that the options have been exhausted by the possibilities presented. Things to consider: -Try to argue with it from their perspective ("If she is my property, then surely it is my choice whether to take her or not, not yours. If you insist that I do this when I don't want to, you are infringing on my rights over my property.") I think this is probably the best way out. If you Paladin has a good Charisma, as he should, this shouldn't be overly difficult. Especially if you drop hints that by working with you you may be able to work a better deal on their part. If you're making the suggestion but not actually lying, there should be no ethos violation. Also the suggestion was made that you're not a member of the tribe, therefore once you claim her then she is no longer a member of the tribe either. Maybe combine the two. If nothing else, maybe you can arrange for them to give you more time which you can spend talking to the girl and trying to help her calm down enough that you can talk to her and try to get her to understand the situation. Make sure she knows that you did what you did to save her life and that once you return home you will seek to have the marriage anulled. Worst case, take the least evil option and then seek pennance.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-27-06, 01:24 AM	Why must all paladin threads end in rape or brutal murder?
guru7892 01-27-06, 01:24 AM	All of which would violate his Code. ah! this is one of those times when you should look to your deity, and if you dont have one, well you just plain screwed... err no pun intended first of all, i dont think it's rape if you have 2 unwilling partners, and there is all ways 'what happens in a cave with a barbarain tribe stays in a cave with a barbarain tribe'. although, the paliden could claim erectile disfunction, which is like taking the fifth. but may cause problems obviously if the girl understands the situation, and if the paliden is preventing a possible war, 'what happens in a cave with a barbarain tribe stays in a cave with a barbarain tribe'. also, if you get very drunk... 'what happens in a cave with a barbarain tribe stays in a cave with a barbarain tribe'. this is real a sistuation where aftermath determins who you are, not the here and now. you are pretty cornered, but in the worst case scenario, you can still come out looking good. Why must all paladin threads end in rape or brutal murder? because we only ask questions when it comes to that with the palidens code.
Grand Theft Otto 01-27-06, 01:25 AM	I'm fairly sick of paladin moral dillemmas. First off, its been stated several times by developers, that the paladin code isnt a balance mechanic. Its pure fluff. You can trash it, and the paladin will still be balanced. Being lawful good is not supposed to be any more of a hinderance than being true neutral. So the loss of paladin status, IMO, is entirely up to the player as a plot moving device. NOT the DM. Its pretty lame how new DM's these days see a paladin character as just an opportunity to **** over one of their players... who, at least in my games, is also a friend. Option 3 isnt within a paldin's ethos. Evoking war between a group of people on a matter of honor is neither lawful, nor good. Personally, Id find a DM who didnt suck and try and think of tons of no win situations for a character.
jpyrich 01-27-06, 01:51 AM	[snip] the paladin could argue that he will not consummate with her immediately. Since he is not a member of the tribe, claiming the wife would automatically remove her as a member of the tribe, and thus she would no longer be bound by its laws. Remember, Paladins are rather charismatic, so his Diplomacy check should be enough to convince them. That would be a way out of the dilema. However, if the campaign world allowed I would use the following and only claim that the tribe's rules not longer applied as my fall back position as it's a bit confrontational. The Paladin would be better off claiming that the girl was not yet his wife. She would only become so after they were formally married. He could not consumate his marriage until that time. To lay with the girl now would be an affront to his god. (Even if sex before marriage is allowed, this would still be rape. Therefore, the last sentence is 100% true even if it's not related to the previous sentence). The Paladin would then take the girl with him when leaving the tribe. Break off the engagement and set the girl up somewhere so that she could have a future. I'm not going to pick nits with the scenario, but 14 was old as presented. Dial that age back to 10 and it is much less problematic. JP
The Grig Fiddler 01-27-06, 01:56 AM	I say kill em all become a black gaurd and rule the world. No really though in my opinion (wich isnt worth much on the boards) just take most peaceful way, the one with the leaast death, and even if some deception is involved or any evil what so ever than your god should see you did the best you could to help everyone. Honestly a god that would still punish you and take away your powers is probably not a very cool god to have your pally devoted to. Furthermore it is all up to the DM if he puts you in this situation with no way out hes probably a jerk, and if hes not a jerk you probably wont be punished. Personally I would say that Im a man of the cloth and that since I have valued and not insulted their traditions than they should respect mine and wait until I have a wedding viewed propper by my "tribe". Maybe Im stupid?
Yabanjin 01-27-06, 02:18 AM	Maybe Im stupid?Maybe you are, but I tend to agree with this: Personally I would say that Im a man of the cloth and that since I have valued and not insulted their traditions than they should respect mine and wait until I have a wedding viewed propper by my "tribe".A DM that doesn't allow the player more than one way out of that situation was just railroading the paladin into sacrilege.
Silverthumb128 01-27-06, 02:50 AM	Why not just smite the chief, and slay his underlings? That way, you've saved the girl, and you haven't caused her any harm, while forcing any survivors to become more modernized. :D You're a Paladin, dammit. Unless he's a really high powered Barbarian(I know he's a Barb, but he might not be too terribly powerful), and you have no armor/weapons(and he may not be evil, you can always determine that), kick his ass, and make it righteous! If you need help, there's probably some bored archons who are looking for a rumble. Orcs vs Archons? Served.
Another Gnome 01-27-06, 03:20 AM	A paladin who worries about falling from grace when deciding his next action is well on the way to the dark side already. Save the girl first, worry about atonement later.
Ardan The Avenger 01-27-06, 03:43 AM	OK, while my initial post was of an "I agree!" nature, the fact is, there's a lot that makes no sense in the OP's post. 1) A warrior who's defeated in combat is automatically disgraced? 2) The daughter is of no use to the tribe, but the wife, since she was claimed by the killer, is? And no one would claim her? 3) The girl, the daughter of a barbarian warrior and member of a barbarian tribe, is out of her mind over the death of her father? Especially in a culture that treats females like sexy blocks of wood? If the paladin wants to accomplish his mission and save the girl's life, he'll consummate muy pronto, and if she wants to live, she'll spread her legs like a good girl and be happy as hell that someone has claimed her as his wife, saving her from death and dishonor. Any DM who has tried to use this sort of scenario as an "Oops, yer a Fallen Paladin now me bucko" situation should find himself in a dumpster, along with his dumb ideas. Me, I'd use it to saddle the paladin with a wife, kids, responsibilities, etc, rather than wipe out his paladinship. And why the hell isn't this thread in the Mature forum?
DM Dave 01-27-06, 03:44 AM	It seems to me that there are three assumptions that are incorrect. 1) The first is that it is immoral to marry the 14 year old when in reality it is a matter of perspective. In the tradition of her tribe she is of marrying age... a fact that she has known all her life... its something she EXPECTS. 2) I find it difficult to believe that this girl is inconsolable after the death of her father. While tragic, in a barbarian society where death is such a part of daily life, I find it difficult to believe that she would be so emotially weak that she couldn't put herself together ta take care of the matter at hand. She's no "court princess" she'a a barabarian maid. In fact, I would go as far to say that she would be INSULTED and feel that her HONOR has been stained if the paladin didn't at least attemt to consumate the marriage. 3) Do these barbarians live in a vacuum? Are they not at least cursory familiar with the tradition in the paladin's culture??? If I was the paladin I would simply say that I must sanctify my marrige before my god and my church, and I simply could not consumate my marrige until that occurs... that would violate my vows... "I have respected and even partaken in many of your traditions honorable chief, and now I am simply asking that you repect one of mine. If a lasting peace is to be established between our two honorable peoples than some compromise in situations like this must occur." I would submit that if HONOR is a tradition in this tribe, and the Paladin DOESN'T do this then the barbarians will loose respect for him and the peace accords he negotiated are in jeapordy. I mean, what kind of HONOR can the man have if he violates his own god's traditions? Now once back in the big city all kinds of comedic storylines suggest themselves. He can't just divest himself of this girl... she doesn't know the language, understand the culture, have a way to make a living, and after all that time with her he surely will develop an emotional attachment to her (just not a sexual one). Doesn't this guy have a high charisma? Perhaps during the trip back home she overcomes some of her grief and maybe starts to get a little "aggressive" with the paladin... I mean, according to her traditions, she's married. Once again, she'd be insulted if the paladin didn't want to partake in his husbandly DUTIES. She is a 14 year old girl... and he is a big, muscular, charismatic, HEROIC figure... she's emotionally weakened due to her father's death... it is concieveable she might develop a crush. That could be funny... her trying to get it on and him putting her off... hilarious... especially if she gets a little aggresive when company is over.... oh man, the RUMORS that would fly around the Court. But hey, as a DM that's the way I would play it. Although I doubt I would have "boxed the character" in like this to begin with...
Lenarior 01-27-06, 04:24 AM	I say, do it the hard way. Stand up for yourself and your believes (your a paladin for gods sake). Just tell the barbarian that now that the girl is your wife, she's also a part of your culture and your people, a people who don't consumate a marriage directly after the "non-ceremony". By the way. Was there ever a cermony? You can sat that you have to take the girl to a temple and perform the rites properly according to your gods. If you have respected their culture, they should have the common decency to respect yours.
Lady Maedhros 01-27-06, 07:38 AM	The rape is the ceremony. It does work better in the comic, though, when there's no "culture clash" excuse (since we have one orc raping another). Also we have no outside support for our protaganist - his tribe isn't strong enough to stand against the one he's in conflict with, and wouldn't support him anyway if he tried to draw any lines in the sand. In the modified situation the OP presents, it's not nearly a challenge, because the pally has lots of options to talk his way out of it. The original situation has a guy with very little influence, all of which he's just used up in order to get the marriage. It's a) cut-and-run, possibly starting a tribal war, b) sit miserably in the tent and watch the tribe kill the "unfit" wife come dawn, or c) rape. There really are no other options. I'm really not sure what a paladin "should" do in such a situation. I don't have a problem with the good guy choosing the miserable option of rape here, just so long as he doesn't think it makes him a hero. Ideally one takes as much of the punishment upon oneself as possible; if she shatters his face afterwards, he accepts that as only fair. Sometimes life just really sucks and there are no good options. It happens. It can make for good storytelling, if everyone's on board. By the way, thanks for linking that comic, which i just spent several hours reading from the beginning. Truly amazing.
Callista 01-27-06, 07:52 AM	Hmm... As others have pointed out before, the Paladin has a high charisma. This should get him out of the situation readily enough. All that may need to be done would be a couple of good Diplomacy checks, either with the girl or with the chief. If you succeed with the chief, you've just solved the problem. If not, try diplomacy on the girl. If she agrees to consummate the marriage, you've also just solved the problem. If she doesn't, you'll have to fake it. While it is chaotic, deception is preferable to death or rape; and while it is dishonorable it is also non-evil, unlike any of the other options. If your deception also fails, you'll have to try diplomacy again. This time you have more options: --Talk to the chief about buying the girl as a servant (Of course, set her free afterwards) --Explain that your religion values women highly and does not allow you to let one die. Your high WIS and CHA will allow you to do this in such a way that those who have grown up thinking women are worthless might, while not quite understanding you, at least humor you. --Explain that the woman is "worthless" to him; so why shouldn't you take her? If all else fails, you might have to summon your war horse, get the girl up on it, and ride hard and fast. You will have a head start because the barbarians will have to go and get their own mounts, while you can simply summon yours. I'd give you more than even chances of succeeding. Of course, in either case, you now have a married paladin with a very young spouse... which is an interesting situation for any DM to handle.
Pandaemoni 01-27-06, 07:57 AM	- The girl is fourteen: in a barbaric culture, she's old enough to bear children, and thus liable to be of age for marriage. (I know the given info implies that this doesn't happen till they're older, but is that perhaps modern thoughts on the subject creeping into the game?) Forget "barbarian" culture, The average age of marriage from the time of Jesus to end of the Rennaissance was 13-14 years old. And that's the "average" because most girls were married at 11 or 12 years old. (Mary, mother of Jesus, was likely 12 or 13 years old, as per Jewish custom at the time at the time she married Joseph and gave birth to Jesus.) By 14, the typical ancient women would have at least one child (and, interestingly, a few studies have noted that mortality rates in childbirth are at their lowest for women around the age of 14, suggesting some biological advantage to having children at around that age). As for what the Paladin should do in the typical campaign, imo it's Option 3 (as the typical campaign is not 100% historically accurate in many respects, and especially in regard to matters of childhood sexuality). That said, this is sort of a DM trap. A DM should be willing to accept *any* decision the player comes to, no matter which option he chooses, so long as the player thinks about it and comes to a reasoned justification for his character's actions. It's not fair to put his paladinhood at risk simply because the player's moral intuition is different from the DMs. If the DM feels strongly about it, then the Paladin's deity should send pretty clear signs to the paladin directing him to the proper option. I do find it highly suspicious that this girl is unaware of the custom of her own tribe and therefore unaware of her plight and dutes once claimed. Unless the DM has decided that the girl is mentally challenged and has the intellect of a five year old, that is DM tomfoolery, and the player should call shenanigans. Even if the girl were unaware of it, you'd think the mother would have pulled her aside before the fight and said "Oh, by the way, your dad may die in this fight, and if he does..." If she were a hostage from another tribe with different customs, then it would make more sense. Also, there is at least one option short of death or rape that the original poster missed. The paladin could have the girl break her own hymen. If she is so mentally retarded that she cannot bring herself to comprehend the Paladin's words, the Paladin might do it himself, and at least it would just be assault.
Lady Maedhros 01-27-06, 08:34 AM	the Paladin might do it himself, and at least it would just be assault. I have to take issue with this. v.aginal penetration is v.aginal penetration. It's still rape even if you do it with the butt of your sword.
OctoberRaven 01-27-06, 08:40 AM	If you can convince her to connsumate, then do so. If not, wait an hour or so, call your warhorse, get her on it, and get the warhorse to take her to the nearest Temple (or as far as it can). Say that she escaped from you and that she won't get far, and you will bring back proof that she has been caught and punished. Once you get to the temple, cut some of her hair and return it to the Barbarian tribe. If all else fails, show them their own reflection and claim you stole their souls, and unless they agree to a peace treaty you will destroy them. Not exactly Exalted, but it gets the job done without bloodshed. If all else fails, your order must prepare for war, but you made every sane attempt at preventing this, so atonement shouldn't be a big deal.
spectralphoenix 01-27-06, 10:41 AM	The paladin shouldn't claim her for himself, he should claim her for his lord. He says that he couldn't claim her while speaking for his lord(true; it just so happens that he couldn't claim her at any other time either) but that he could offer her to his lord as a sign of friendship with the tribe (true; the lord just won't be interested) and that if the lord doesn't want to marry her, she will be "dealt with" (true; by sending her to the temple or orphanage.) This should work; a tribe like this is probably big on chieftan loyalty. From their perspective, it should seem entirely reasonable that the paladin can't accept "gifts" personally while acting for his lord. Any DM who doesn't allow this (or some of the other solutions I've seen) is just paladin-baiting.
Pandaemoni 01-27-06, 12:37 PM	I have to take issue with this. v.aginal penetration is v.aginal penetration. It's still rape even if you do it with the butt of your sword. I respect your right to believe that, and understand the deeply troubling issue, but at least in European law there has always been a distinction between sexual assault and rape. Even today, iIn most states insertion of foregn objects other than genitalia is a species of "aggravated sexual abuse" (under NY Penal law Article 130.66 - .70 (http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/laws.php#13066), for example) or sexual assault. If anything, medieval European laws were lax in that regard, as there were no heightened standards for sexual assaults. It was either rape or it was simple assault--no worse legally than punching the girl in the nose.
Sir Knight 01-27-06, 01:01 PM	DM Dave's post above sums up the bulk of my arguements so I won't repeat. For the topic starter here is what I would do. To the DM, "I ask the Chief for a private audience." Once in private I would tell the Chief that, "Were I come from we work marriage differently. It is rare that we marry for anything other than love and it takes time to get to know somebody. Also, IF I were in love with her I would need to be married in my church and I couldn't consumate until after that." I would then suggest, "I will honor her and protect her. At the least can I have some time to get to know her? She is a little young for my taste but I wouldn't want her to be harmed. Who knows, maybe we are destined for each other. I would like to take her with me and do her right. But I would like to allow her to grieve and to get to know me. I will not force myself on her and to do so would be to tarnish my honor." Something like that. NEVER insult his culture or ways, blame it on your culture/ways. Use Diplomacy and try to make everyone happy. Discuss it with the young lady and hopefully you will have a nice roleplaying hook for the rest of the campaign.
Lady Maedhros 01-27-06, 01:09 PM	Fair enough, legally, but what the paladin is looking at in this situation is the trauma to the girl - no matter what he sticks down there, to put it crudely, it has the same effect on her in this context. To change the scenario around a bit so that it more accurately represents Stonewater's situation, our paladin is no longer an outsider negotiating a peace settlement between two disparate cultures. He is an orc from another tribe, a newly called paladin, just on the cusp of manhood himself, with no order or guidance, merely his own overwhelming sense that he must stand against the evil in this world. He's a visiting dignitary to another tribe. He has no class abilities and no authority - he's only just a man, certianly not a hardened warrior. He can't summon his horse or flee to a place of guaranteed safety - if he puts it on the line for this girl against her tribe, he's going against his own as well (even though his tribe is more liberal, it's not going to stand against a more powerful one). Of course the support of outsiders is no concern of a paladin - this is not a question of how it will affect his decision, just a question of how his options are limited. The issue at hand has nothing to do with losing his paladinhood. The loss of paladinhood is a fallacy. The paladin never acts to "keep his class" or worries about "atoning later". The paladin simply does what he feels is right, and that is what makes him a paladin, not the other way around. This is not a DM trap. This is not a "lolzors, robbed the nub pally of his skillz! loozer sissy! :rofl:" BS thread. This is just a moral question. You have few options, none of them good. In your heart of hearts, what feels like the right thing to do?
Seeker95 01-27-06, 01:23 PM	He says that he couldn't claim her (true)Why not? I don't get where anyone is coming up with the claim that the paladin can't marry her, or be considered married to her under the tribal law. And if it's a matter of celibacy... that has *never* been a factor for paladins, even in the real world. Hell, the kings during the crusades sent european women to the Holy Land for the sole purpose of providing sex to the soldiers so they wouldn't have to use local women. And these were soldiers operating *for* God and Country. Even Charlemagne's knights had wives. And they were the source of the term "paladin".
DM Dave 01-27-06, 02:28 PM	Why not? I don't get where anyone is coming up with the claim that the paladin can't marry her, or be considered married to her under the tribal law. And if it's a matter of celibacy... that has *never* been a factor for paladins, even in the real world. Hell, the kings during the crusades sent european women to the Holy Land for the sole purpose of providing sex to the soldiers so they wouldn't have to use local women. And these were soldiers operating *for* God and Country. Even Charlemagne's knights had wives. And they were the source of the term "paladin". Hold on thar pardner! Paladins in D&D are only loosely based on the historical model. REAL paladins can't "lay on hands", cast clerical spells, or turn undead... etc. D&D Paladins are more a "Romanticized" version. That said, I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that Paladins are celibate... that's just silly. However, they are virtuous. Thus, I would say that Paladins, both male and female would hold to the idea sex is the result of true love not the reverse. And of course, ideally, marriage would come first... or at the very least soon follow. That is not to say that if a Paladin has sex they have to get married or be married, just that it is the intention. Paladins only have sex when they are in love, and if one has found their true love than marriage would soon follow.
Grand Theft Otto 01-27-06, 02:37 PM	This is not a DM trap. This is not a "lolzors, robbed the nub pally of his skillz! loozer sissy! :rofl:" BS thread. This is just a moral question. You have few options, none of them good. In your heart of hearts, what feels like the right thing to do? What it is, like almost ALL of these threads, is an incredibly bogus situation that doesnt actually MAKE SENSE, a railroaded choice that sprang from an unrealistic chain of events. So.. in this culture which places no value on women... 2 warriors were fighting to the death over one? Why not make a thread about forcing a paladin to rape and murdering his newborn son or the entire world will become irrevocably chaotic evil and forever damned... with NO hope of ever changing back. There is no other choice. Whee! What tense drama... Oh, maybe because good DM's dont create such contrived and asinine scenarios?
JulesCARV 01-27-06, 02:38 PM	Sometimes, a paladin must fall. But if he must fall, is it better to "fall" into being neutral good, or is it better to "fall" into being lawful neutral? It'd say the former. I think that the paladin who follows the law of the land, doing what he can within the law to save the girl, but ultimately ends up raping her, as is required by tribal custom and law, runs the risk of falling into lawful neutrality. I think that the paladin who tries to use a little bit of deception, not being wholly truthful, maybe claiming impotence or the like, but sparing the traumatized girl from being raped, runs the risk of falling into neutral goodness. And DMDave is certainly right that taking whatever happened in the past, and calling it "good" is fallacious. ("well, Genghis Khan burnt down entire cities, and he existed in a plausible timeframe of the sort in which DnD campaigns happen, so therefore a LG Paladin can sack entire cities!") UPDATE: It occurs to me that it would be interesting to see a paladin as someone who, rather than obsessively following the customs and mores of his culture (i.e., the "girls typically got married at 14, and consent isn't need for sex between spouses, so this is all lawful good), actually manifests his lawful good nature by seeking some sort of true aspect of law and good beyond his own society's imperfections. This is fairly obvious when, for example, a paladin comes from a society with brutal slavery, but could a paladin also become, say, a fierce (but peaceful) critic of the monarchy, calling instead for a republican-style government? (note: republics are not a modern invention. San Marino, the oldest surviving republic still around today (even if it's a part of Italy in all-but-name), was founded in 301 A.D.) Could a paladin play the part of a John Stuart Mill or Condorcet? Rational, humane, and just, but always thinking about things from a logical, modron-like point of view, thinking: "One family inherits rulership of the throne? This is not logical or good. I'll write a pamphlet advocating peaceful change!" Of course, since J.S. Mill probably had an int of 18 or so (he would have kicked ass if only he had taken levels besides "expert!" A wizard or psion Mill would have simply fried Thomas Carlyle alive! Condorcet also probably would have come out of the French revolution alive if only he had taken levels besides "aristocrat."), and the typical paladin is... uh... well below that, so perhaps not. It's an interesting concept, though. By the way, it's not really true that, in medeival Europe, that girls usually got married at 13. For aristocrats, maybe, but commoner girls usually waited until 18 or so. The west European pattern of marriage was different than that of most of the world, though, so perhaps if you campaign takes place in the fantasy equivalent of, say, India, then it really is true that the typical commoner girl gets married at 13.
Grand Theft Otto 01-27-06, 02:44 PM	I think that the paladin who tries to use a little bit of deception, not being wholly truthful, maybe claiming impotence or the like, but sparing the traumatized girl from being raped, runs the risk of falling into neutral goodness. Another reason why the paladin's code is LONG past due for being pruned. Anything that favors honesty to such a degree that it causes the death of innocents (which evoking war would do) is Lawful Stupid, not Lawful Good.
kam_Islash 01-27-06, 02:55 PM	I guess it depends on the age of legal consent in your campaign setting. Wait, does Dungeons and Dragons even HAVE that whole "age of legal consent" system that western society has adopted? I mean its not like someone magically becomes able to "think rationally" about sex the moment their 18th birthday comes around... Back in the old days if you were old enough to produce egss you were old enough to get hitched. American and modern Europeans are the ones who invented that concept, and America ALSO invented the drinking age. Why? Personally I think its discrimination against the young. Theyre not doing it to "protect" ANYONE. They're doing it to oppress and persecute! Your pally should marry her, and if anyone objects, you tell them "It was a matter of HONOR! Plus how can you say no to these Cheekbones?" Oh yes and above all: Emphasize to the DM that you go out of your way to make her climax! Being selfless in bed is VERY Lawful Good behaviour. Clever usage of the Lay On Hands Ability. Just like tha man said : "Always say you're actively probing for traps BEFORE entering the dungeon room."
spectralphoenix 01-27-06, 03:39 PM	Seeing how this is in the D&D General Forum, let's try to be a little less descriptive. Keep in mind that even an Exalted character can remain silent or withhold information when it benefits him, and Exalted characters are held to stricter codes than paladins. I would say the paladin should be able to talk his way out of it.
Herald@Large 01-27-06, 03:51 PM	Having just now read the whole thread, I have a question that puts an entirely different spin on this discussion: Why is such a low-level paladin (remember, the OP said he was *third* level) being entrusted with such a diplomatically sensitive mission? At best he has only six ranks in Diplomacy. Also, to those who have been suggesting that he summon his mount to get himself and/or the girl away): he has no warhorse or mount to summon! (He won't get that until he hits *fifth* level, according to the SRD I just looked up) The whole thing feels like yet another "set-up-the-paladin" game ... :mad:
Rhomphaia 01-27-06, 05:09 PM	I read and re-read the original post and it all comes down to one simple statement. There is no way out for the paladin. He is screwed no matter what. Let's look at the facts when it comes to the OP and keep in mind this is a 3rd level paladin. First, the paladin has been entrusted with a highly sensitive mission. The reason comes down to two reasonable possibilities, either the paladin was the only one in the area capable of handling such a misson or he was referred by someone. Setup. Second, the paladin is made painfully aware that he is no match for the chieftan by way of ritual brawl. This comes into play later when the chieftan challenges him. Setup. Third, the ritual combat over a woman. What are the chances that the tribe would choose to hold that particular combat on a day the paladin would be there to witness it? While not out of the realm of possibility, it is far more unlikely than likely. Setup. Fourth (a big one) the fallen combatant had a daughter who was now useless to the tribe. Why have a daughter present in the first place? It could have been a son or there might have been no child at all. Setup. Fifth, the chieftan explains to the paladin that the marriage must be consumated immediately. This also implies that the winner of the duel and a possibly unwilling woman must also consumate their marriage. If the paladin is not guilty of rape himself, he will be guilty of allowing rape by ommission of action. Setup. Sixth, the chieftan challenges the paladin if he will not consumate the marriage. Basically equating to 'paladin dies' and no word of a truce reaching the villagers or other authority. Setup. This is only the stuff that jumped right out at me as this being a setup. The paladin is given a 'fall or fall harder' choice, which is not fair or fun and smacks of DM ineptitude. Even as just a hypothetical situation, this should not come up in a game. Before you smack me for being too lax, ask yourself this question. Would you even think of this situation if there was no paladin? If not, then it likely is just a setup for the paladin to fail.
Ardan The Avenger 01-27-06, 05:27 PM	Your pally should marry her, and if anyone objects, you tell them "It was a matter of HONOR! Plus how can you say no to these Cheekbones?" I am in total awe of this statement.
Silverthumb128 01-27-06, 05:29 PM	There's a very easy way out: Let the tribe kill her, then bribe your Rogue to sneaking in at night and retrieving her corpse. Then take her to the nearest temple, and have her revived. Repay the temple with various odd-jobs, and use Diplomacy to convince the girl of your plan to save her involved her death.
JulesCARV 01-27-06, 05:32 PM	Here's my rough sketch of what I think that the paladin's priorities should be, from greatest to least: Priority 1: Secure peace between the barbarians and the surrounding lands. Priority 2: Save the girl's life Priority 3: Save the girl from further trauma. Priority 4: Save his own life. Priority 5: Save himself from impurity/"falling from grace." Then again, my interpretation of paladin alignment/code might not be how most people see it. I'm the guy who detects evil on Dolgrims, then offers to spare their lives if they surrender AFTER finding out that they're assuredly evil, screwing up the sneaky types' plans for a sneak attack.
Orange_Death 01-27-06, 06:10 PM	Hm. Do you really REALLY love to roleplay your paladin? Like, so much, that you start to almost think like him? If you answered yes, get help. Paladin, you ain't. Yes is the path to the following situation: Clerk: That'll be $250.00, sir. You: Can you help me get these bags to my car? Clerk: That's not my job, sir. Besides, there are others in line. You: What, it'll only take a few minutes. My car is right outside the store. Clerk: I'm sorry, sir. Besides, I'd rather not. You: You're very rude. And you smell rather odd. Clerk: Go away. Honestly, I don't give a :censored: about your bags. If your car is so close, then I think you should be able to drag them to your car... sir. You: SMITE EVIL! Clerk: Augh! Stop whacking me! Security! You: Think of the customer for once! Clerk: I'm filling in for my friend who just found out he has cancer! Plus, there are 25 more people in line. *DRAMATIZATION* Since you probably answered no, because I assume you don't wish you were an imaginary person represented on the mortal plane by a tiny figurine, I offer these situations. 1. Decide if you really love being a paladin. If you think you could live with playing a different sort of character, be a mildly-evil blackguard. Note the MILDLY-EVIL. 2. Do you always roll paladins? It seems your DM hates them. Ask your DM if you can roll a character with a level as same as the party (If there are varying levels in the party, offer to roll your character as the same level as the lowest level party member. This might be more agreeable.) If you aren't emotionally attached to your paladin, go out and KILL SOME ORCS. I doubt you'll survive. When you die horribly, roll a new character, possibly a less DM-hated class. 3. Go find a new DM. This one seems to enjoy making paladins go through :censored: because they have to follow their code. Hope that helped.
Dragoon 01-27-06, 06:24 PM	I would, like to point out in order to keep this from attacking the good DMS everywhere: The OP's post was in regards to a scenario based off of a webcomic. It is not a real situation which has arisen, and if it is, it is pure chance. I wanted to point this out becuase we all love to shout something about a new DM. So: No DM is in this, no sane DM would ever put this situation out unless he is twisted with a warped sense of humor. (If you are this twisted for doing so, congrats my brother/sister!) Also, before I do forget, the leveling is wrong. The "Paladin" in the comic, I think, is only a warrior or a fighter. NOT a paladin. Please point me out if wrong.
Epic_Meepo 01-27-06, 06:57 PM	Why is the OP assuming that I'm playing a male paladin?
Templetroll 01-27-06, 09:56 PM	Why not just smite the chief, and slay his underlings? That way, you've saved the girl, and you haven't caused her any harm, while forcing any survivors to become more modernized. :D You're a Paladin, dammit. Unless he's a really high powered Barbarian(I know he's a Barb, but he might not be too terribly powerful), and you have no armor/weapons(and he may not be evil, you can always determine that), kick his ass, and make it righteous! If you need help, there's probably some bored archons who are looking for a rumble. Orcs vs Archons? Served. It was mentioned that the Barb chief had defeated the pal in a duel. It was likely the Barb chief could still take the pal if he got obstreperous. The diplomatic statement of claiming the need to honor his own traditions prevent him from consumating the marriage right then and adding that such honor towards both their traditions would help in the building of the treaty. This also fits in with the 'she is claimed by me and given up by you therefore her life i no longer under your tradition but mine. I honored your tradition by claiming her and now expect that you will honor mine by respecting my decision about my wife. Once they get back to his homeland the pal explains her rights as a citizen and what her options are. If she chooses to leave he should help her get set in a life there. If she chooses to marry him then he should marry her. That's the part of the arranged marriage bit that I think works here. If he doesn't want to be married he should be very frank about the religious and familial life she can expect due to his being a paladin. Not everyone can live that devout a life so she may decide against it. She may love it and make him happy; have to take your chance.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 01-27-06, 10:11 PM	A paladin who worries about falling from grace when deciding his next action is well on the way to the dark side already. Save the girl first, worry about atonement later. Exactly! Does your paladin value following the rules, or doing what's right? Any true paladin would doe anything he could to protect the girl, and worry about everything else later. Law means a commitment to order, peace, and civility, not a formalist mindset that simply favors good a little more than evil.
Pandaemoni 01-27-06, 10:45 PM	Thus, I would say that Paladins, both male and female would hold to the idea sex is the result of true love not the reverse. People in the medieval world did not marry for love. That is a modern concept. Even in the peasant classes that notion was unlikely. The most the average person could hope for was to happen to fall in love with their spouse later on down the road...and by then the marriage would have been long ago consummated.
DM Dave 01-27-06, 11:13 PM	People in the medieval world did not marry for love. That is a modern concept. Even in the peasant classes that notion was unlikely. The most the average person could hope for was to happen to fall in love with their spouse later on down the road...and by then the marriage would have been long ago consummated. While I could spend a page or two challenging the validity of your statement using the romantic literature of the day, that would be pointless. If you read my o.p. I stated that the D&D paladin is only a romanticized version of the historical equivalent. The basic precept of the paladin is the he or she is a person striving to achieve a virtuous ideal. This follows that sex is a result of passion, and passion is a result of love (note, we are not talking about lust here). Thus, from true love grows a lifetime commitment and vows of loyalty to one's lover and partner... i.e. marriage. Please don't confuse what I'm saying here is that in order for a paladin to have sex her or she must get married, but if you follow the logic... a person who vows to uphold the law, defend the weak, and show by example how to live a virtuous life, could that person do any less in matters of the heart?
Templetroll 01-27-06, 11:38 PM	Why is the OP assuming that I'm playing a male paladin? Because the barbs consider women lesser and would not bother talking to her, paladin or not. This was known.
Kitfox 01-28-06, 12:12 AM	Not that I have a better view on this complex matter but it seems rather simple choice. Pick the lesser evil and pay for your choices later at least I will not be as severe punishment. Letting war errupt/continue in any way by paladins actions would be the hardest to mend. Letting the girl die is the same as killing the girl himself. Or worse because as the original poster stated they drew their arrows getting ready to kill her. One or more arrows will not kill outright unless done properly. A swift sword cleave is less painfull than several minute of slow and painfull death by bleeding and organ shutdown cause by the arrows. So the choices available would be Fight the chief to death. Do a runner and hope you both dont get killed. 'Marry' the girl as proposed by the chief. Fighting the chief to death may be a good option if the paladin can negotiate a deal (possibly a binding deal that the barbarians WILL have to honour) to get the girl safely transported to the nearest orphanage/church in town if/when the paladin falls in combat. Doing a runner and hoping may work but if failed they will both die. WORST option so far because of the situation that can occur. If they run away then good luck and dont turn back. if they fail then the death of the girl will be balanced by the death of the paladin. However that act of running in the first place MAY trigger the war that the paladin was so eagerly trying to stop. So really the simplest choice is to 'marry the girl'. Morraly wrong? Which century beliefs are we basing this on? Back in 1941 my grandfather married my grandmother and they were 10 years apart. She was 15 at the time and the first time she met him was when his parrents took him and asked her parents to get married. Love is not a very practical thing but it has become a fashion these days. A fashion that results in more divorces than anything else. As mentioned above, people did not marry for superficial things. The qualities that match makers looked for were in terms of hard working (not lazy), good looks so the offspring can be beautifull, good posture, good hips for big strong kids to be produced and other NON-LOVE characteristics. but not get back on the paladin... His only choice was to get married. He would have been a charismatic fellow so why are we all thinking she will hate him. Just because she is a barbarian doesnot mean she is the dumbest person on the planet. She may respect the laws of her tribe but who knows maybe a part of her was wishing things were different. Between coping it from an unknown sexy looking knight in shining armour who can take her to lands she has always dreamed of traveling and painfull death by bleeding and organ failure I think she will not only be thankfull of the situation buy enjoying it too. But out of all this is the simplest and the best. Because even if what he did was filthy and disguisting and amoral (modern morals) and would have damaged his Code, Im sure the punishment/repayment that he will be making to cover the loss would be far less than any of the other options. .... side note: diplomacy used in terrible ways can lead to good things if only your perspective is facing the right way. So maybe the paladin offers to perform some :censored: services for the chief to compensate for the girl instead of sleeping with her would be more inline with applying those modern morals on outdated society. But I have said too much and posting after three beers is often a bad mix so I will go hide im my corner now. :tissue:
Pandaemoni 01-28-06, 12:17 AM	While I could spend a page or two challenging the validity of your statement using the romantic literature of the day, that would be pointless. If you read my o.p. I stated that the D&D paladin is only a romanticized version of the historical equivalent. You could spend a page or two but you'd be wrong. It was uncommon. It was more common in fiction of the day than reality.
DM Dave 01-28-06, 02:38 AM	You could spend a page or two but you'd be wrong. It was uncommon. It was more common in fiction of the day than reality. Ah... I see :rolleyes: Damn man, a simple Google check before you throw out the "Wrong" Word, eh? Arranged marriages occur because one party or the other has something to gain from the union. Usually, a girl's dowry equaled an increase in social standing for her family. But there could have been political as well as social gains to be made. Thus, arranged marriages only occurred within prominent families who had land or other valuable property to barter with. In medieval times this was a very small portion of the population. The MAJORITY of the people lived and farmed the land in exchange for safety and protection from the land owner or Lord. So while almost all well-to-do families had arranged marriages; to say that the majority of medieval marriages were arranged is simply not accurate because the majority of the population were serfs.
Seanamal 01-28-06, 04:03 AM	Option 5: Diplomacy, tell the chief that you appreciate his traditions and you hope that he feels you have honored them. Then ask him that he honor your traditions as well. That he allow you to consumate your marriage at your own time and choosing due to certain rites that must be performed on your bride to be by your religious leaders. Hopefully this stall for time will let you work out a solution. At the very least you can use the time to calm the girl down and avoid the rape.
Dhavaer 01-28-06, 04:24 AM	While I could spend a page or two challenging the validity of your statement using the romantic literature of the day, that would be pointless. If you read my o.p. I stated that the D&D paladin is only a romanticized version of the historical equivalent. The basic precept of the paladin is the he or she is a person striving to achieve a virtuous ideal. This follows that sex is a result of passion, and passion is a result of love (note, we are not talking about lust here). Thus, from true love grows a lifetime commitment and vows of loyalty to one's lover and partner... i.e. marriage. Please don't confuse what I'm saying here is that in order for a paladin to have sex her or she must get married, but if you follow the logic... a person who vows to uphold the law, defend the weak, and show by example how to live a virtuous life, could that person do any less in matters of the heart? Out of curiosity, what makes you see marriage as more virtuous than other domestic/social/sexual arrangements?