any point to zombie and skeleton encounters when there's a cleric in the party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

any point to zombie and skeleton encounters when there's a cleric in the party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sroblin
05-13-07, 04:03 PM Well, I've played for enough years that I know turning is very effective against low level undead. I just didn't quite realize it would allow even a 2nd-level cleric to basically end any skeleton or zombie encounter with a single standard action.

This seems a bit of a shame, because while you would expect turning to kill several of them, there seems to be no point in using skeletons and zombies in an encounter if there's a cleric in the party that can wipe them all out with a single check five or six times a day. Skeletons and zombies are obviously mooks that are meant to die, but it would be cool if they would pose a brief challenge in hand-to-hand instead of being a simple standard-attack away from total-wipe out.

Obviously, beefing them up with class levels and hit die is one way to improve them, but it's just seems too bad that even at the lowest levels they die with a proverbial snap of a cleric's fingers. Next time, I'll probably try to have them in the vicinity of an 'unhallow" effect, too.

Still, while turning should be an effective area effect, it seems a little too good at early levels against such horde undead. Skeletons should still die, and clerics should still be good at offing them, but others in the party should still be pressed to contribute in such battles as well.
bonethug0108
05-13-07, 04:09 PM One thing to keep in mind is that you want to give the cleric something to turn, otherwise it would be a waste of ability.

Second, include other monsters mixed in among skeletons and zombies. Have living and undead goblins side by side.

Third, through a bunch of them at the party, enough so that the cleric can't turn them all and the other members have the kill some or they all risk being overrun. But don't put so many to cause a tpk.
Zaistars69
05-13-07, 04:17 PM Turn undead is a silly ability. It should be a will save, 10 + 1/2 cleric level + chr modifier. Failure causes normal turn/rebuke/destroy effects. That way it is at least moderatly useful at high levels and not a "we win" at lower levels. Good times, I think I just created a new house rule.
bonethug0108
05-13-07, 04:22 PM Turn undead is a silly ability. It should be a will save, 10 + 1/2 cleric level + chr modifier. Failure causes normal turn/rebuke/destroy effects. That way it is at least moderatly useful at high levels and not a "we win" at lower levels. Good times, I think I just created a new house rule.

Agreed that it is wonky. There are many variants of it floating about. I think I've seen one similar to what you have put forth.
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 04:26 PM Powerful undead creature with a few minions, the cleric obliterates the minions and then everyone fights the powerful creature. Cleric got to use his ability, you still get an encounter, everybody wins.
PhaedrusXY
05-13-07, 04:40 PM Familiarize yourself with the rules on evil clerics bolstering undead, and countering Turn attempts, and add one of those in with the encounter. Those skeletons and zombies had to come from somewhere.
The Livewire
05-13-07, 04:46 PM Turn attempts are limited, and may fail.

a Ghoul necromancer (or ghoul rogue with scrolls of animate dead) will find zombies/skeletons useful to burn turn undead and absorb the dice of damage.

That said, the mechanic could use some work
Satyrus
05-13-07, 05:01 PM If the cleric is sestroying the undead right away then I would say you should use necromancer's or evil clerics. The main enemies of my Pcs is a cult of necromancer's, clerics and palemasters.
Salla
05-13-07, 05:05 PM The thing about turning undead is, unless you actually destroy something ... it just buys time. They can come back. Additionally, at low levels, yes, Turn Undead can be very effective, but at high levels it becomes completely useless because undead HD scale much higher than their CRs do; a 17 HD Skeleton can have a CR of 7, and a 7th level Cleric ain't gonna do much about that. :)

I use the Complete Divine version of Turning Undead, which just deals damage as appropriate.
An_Elder_Gamer
05-13-07, 06:25 PM Is there any point to skeletons and zombies?

Honestly?

Is your imagination that limited?

If we used your logic, whats the point of goblins and kobolds?

As a DM, all you need is a little imagination to make these pathetic creatures useful once again. Sure, they pose no threat to your party, but to the average peasant, a couple of these nasties will ruin their day. A hundred or so of these low level undead come marching out of the nearby wilderness and start destroying nearby farms seemingly at random would cause the local officials no end of misery.

Who sent them?
Why are they attacking these farms in particular?
Where will they strike next?

Big deal, so the clerics wipe out some weak undead. They are a symptom, not the real problem. If you can't see the usefulness of these creatures, then your not using your imagination.

If you're a DM, then you need to sit down and really do some thinking. Perhaps you should consider stepping aside and letting someone else run your next session.

I'm sorry if this comes across a little harsh, but you just need to use your imagination.
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 06:36 PM I use the Complete Divine version of Turning Undead, which just deals damage as appropriate.

Ah yes, the good version of turn undead.
An_Elder_Gamer
05-13-07, 06:38 PM Is there any point to skeletons and zombies?

Honestly?

Is your imagination that limited?

If we used your logic, whats the point of goblins and kobolds?

As a DM, all you need is a little imagination to make these pathetic creatures useful once again. Sure, they pose no threat to your party, but to the average peasant, a couple of these nasties will ruin their day. A hundred or so of these low level undead come marching out of the nearby wilderness and start destroying nearby farms seemingly at random would cause the local officials no end of misery.

Who sent them?
Why are they attacking these farms in particular?
Where will they strike next?

Big deal, so the clerics wipe out some weak undead. They are a symptom, not the real problem. If you can't see the usefulness of these creatures, then your not using your imagination.

If you're a DM, then you need to sit down and really do some thinking. Perhaps you should consider stepping aside and letting someone else run your next session.

I'm sorry if this comes across a little harsh, but you just need to use your imagination.
fatal error
05-13-07, 10:17 PM I'm sorry if this comes across a little harsh, but you just need to use your imagination.

Yes, that's a little harsh.

Okay, so you can make undead-centric plots without relying on zombies and skeletons being the main encounters. Does that fix the actual problem that zombies and skeletons can't be used as main encounters? No, it just circumvents it. If it is in the Monster Manual, it should probably be able to be used as the meat of an encounter on some level. And not just with NPCs.

I'll tack onto this discussion a related problem that can come along with some of these proposed solutions: Failed Turnings.

If you design an encounter based mainly around skeletons and zombies, and expecting them to actually take part, then a successful turning ruins your day.

At the same time, however, if you boost the encounters to include additional non-undead or higher level undead, then a failed turn means the zombies and skeletons do still take part. In this latter case, it could be that the encounter becomes too much for the party to handle.

Essentially, Turn Undead is a save-or-die at level 1, and that makes it difficult to balance encounters where it can have an effect. At least, that's how I'm seeing it.
Krusk
05-13-07, 11:42 PM you could always throw in the occasional undead minion or body gaurd for the BBEG. do this knowing the cleric will destroy them quite quickly.

Now your cleric gets the satisfaction of being vital to the party over the healbot. If they didn't have the cleric it would have been much harder. In all honestly its really not all that diffrent than throwing some traps at the party when they have a decent rogue.

*totally ignore that if your cleric is not playing the healbot route.

They can be used basically as a morale booster, or a chance for a cleric who is lacking in power to show off for a bit.
Prof. Pacali
05-14-07, 10:12 AM You could always have an evil cleric bolster the skeletons and zombies, making it harder for the cleric to turn them.
forsaken1111
05-14-07, 11:05 AM Well the stereotypical zombie/skeletal horde scenario is still very useful.

If you have a group of 4-5 level adventurers, pitting them up against 40-50 low-CR undead can be amusing. They will often have fun with the encounter, which is the point of DND, and come up with fun ways to overcome the horde.

I did this to my level 7/8 party of 7 PC's, pitting them against several hundred lower undead and some ghouls/ghasts mixed in. We did it on a map, using paper markers with letters to keep track of the undead. They had a blast and used the environment to great effect.
the_Luggage
05-14-07, 12:41 PM Libris Mortis has some funky rules about large numbers of undead staining an area with negative energy. This basically gives them all turn resistance of some degree I think. Have a look at it, it's a good read for an undead using DM.
I'm using a similar rule in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft Zombie infestation bit, giving all undead in Barovia turn resistance +1.
All though the zombies in that case have 6HD so it's not so big a deal.
Sroblin
05-14-07, 01:11 PM Well, to address a number of things: I did use other monsters in the encounter, and they were more resilient to turning. Of course, skeletons on there own imply more powerful creators and benefit from interesting commanders.

My problem is that for a 2nd level party, skeletons should make a decent horde-fight for most character (including wizards), but that even significant numbers of them can become instantly neutralized by a cleric. I had the skeletons employ surprise, cover, and tactics that would have made for an interesting combat against all the other character, (remember, skeletons have good initiatve, decent AC, and DR5 versus all but bashing attacks, which means they are pretty tough versus ranged attacks) but the clerics turning ability made these irrelevant. Now, this is my fault for failing to calculate just how effective turning was even at 2nd level, but it also seems to reflect a flaw in game design. Clerics should have a useful turning ability- but it shouldn't be so powerful that skeleton/zombie encounters get finished in the first round, even at low levels.

Now yes, I could pit three to four times that many undead mooks, (Forty to fifty, I have heard suggested), and count on the cleric to kill swathes with his turning, but that would just make the rest of a very low-level party suffer because of the clerics extra-powerful abilities, while being unable to put a comparable dent in their numbers.

I think unhallow and bolstering are good tactics, however, to curb but not totally nerf a clerics turn undead power.

Now, I feel 'Elder_Gamer' can get off his high-horse about my limited imagination and experience- I've been DMing for 4 years, and its not been an unmitigated disaster. I'm not implying that easily-turnable undead aren't threat to everyone else but clerics, and that they're 'useless' if they can be easily killed by a cleric- indead, aside from turning vulnerability, they are effective monsters for their CR. However, this vulnerability limits their ability to make good game encounters, irrespective of the internal logic of the fantasy setting.

Bringing up goblins and kobolds, however brings up the crux of the issue , because had the same encounter involved kobolds or goblins, it would have been challenging multi-round battle which would have forced the (2nd level) party to use tactics and deal with difficult positioning. Instead, their role in the battle was nullified through a single action by 2nd level character. Now, as skeletons and zombie battles are thematically cool, I feel it is reasonable to criticize a game mechanic that makes them insta-die even against a very low-level party. While Cleric's should have an effective turning ability, and I still think they would still have a purpose in the world, I would just rather that purpose include (meta-game wise) being a reasonably engaging encounter for a low-level party.
Grand Theft Otto
05-14-07, 01:24 PM Turn undead is a pretty damn poorly designed ability. Due to how incredibly crappy undead HD are, undead creatures get TONS of them compared to their CR. The turning check is a d20+ charisma check. A result of 22 is required to turn level +4 (and this is the max it goes). A 2nd level cleric trying to turn a CR 2 bugbear zombie needs a 22 on their charisma check to even have a chance. A CR 4 minotaur zombie is unturnable until *8th* level. A piddly CR 6 grey render zombie is unturnable until 16th level (and again, only if you get a 22+ on an ability check). Its only marginally better against skeletons.

On the contrary, turn undead is largely pointless against skeletons and zombies.
DreadArchon
05-14-07, 01:33 PM a 17 HD Skeleton can have a CR of 7, and a 7th level Cleric ain't gonna do much about that. :)
Well, there's two items in Libris Mortis that each give nearby undead -4 turn resistance, and there's another there that gives the cleric +4 effective levels, so using like 25k gold and Libris Mortis, that 17 HD skeleton suddenly has only 5 HD for turning purposes against the level 7 cleric.
Grand Theft Otto
05-14-07, 02:48 PM Well, there's two items in Libris Mortis that each give nearby undead -4 turn resistance, and there's another there that gives the cleric +4 effective levels, so using like 25k gold and Libris Mortis, that 17 HD skeleton suddenly has only 5 HD for turning purposes against the level 7 cleric.

True. I'd forgotten about the patch items to fix the poorly done turn undead rules. Though this just leads to issues where undead with HD relative to their CR are a joke. They should have went back to the drawing board on this for the revision of 3.5.
forsaken1111
05-14-07, 02:50 PM True. I'd forgotten about the patch items to fix the poorly done turn undead rules. Though this just leads to issues where undead with HD relative to their CR are a joke. They should have went back to the drawing board on this for the revision of 3.5.

There's also a magic item in the MIC with charges/day that you can burn to boost your effective cleric level for a turning check.
Krusk
05-14-07, 03:02 PM So someone who specilizes in undead turning can turn the amazingly powerful undead. I say let them get a reward for specilization. That is like never giving the ranger an encounter vs his favored enemy.
forsaken1111
05-14-07, 03:10 PM I can say that when I did put my PC's in a situation where they faced some undead, the two clerics were brutally efficient at turning or destroying them. They walked through that dungeon without casting a single spell until the 3rd sublevel, and I was MEAN to them too. They just had a good combination of turning and melee, the spellcasters really didn't need to bother until they hit the hard stuff.
LCD2YOU
05-14-07, 03:40 PM In a word: Cannon-Fodder.

When you send skeletons at them en masse (not enough to get many Exp for) that can let others know that the party's there. If you give them Zombies instead, have them grapple the front line guys until they grab someone and pull them down.

The Clerics who like to turn are then confronted by not enough turning to handle the bad guys who can really hurt them.

Also note that an effective way is to make the area that the undead are in Unhallowed. That's not a difficult thing to do and as it last's for a while, it makes the turning even more fun when combined with Bane.

Then when they've used up their turns, hit them with the real bad guys.
WotC Mearls
05-14-07, 03:48 PM The thing that frustrates me is that at low levels, turning simply negates undead, but at high levels most undead have too many HD for turning to affect them.

The simple fact is that undead are cool enemies, and it's lame that a basic character ability can simply make them pointless opponents. There's a lot of variants out there, and I tend to like them over the core rules.

I have had some success in making turning a bad idea because of what happens when the skeletons and zombies run away. For instance, I had one dungeon where the skeletons had bells nailed to their bones. When they rain, the bells rang and alerted the rest of the tomb complex. Killing the skeletons before they could run away was a big challenge, and turning only made things worse.

You could do a similar thing with turned undead setting off traps (a tripwire causes a fireball to explode in the room), luring monsters into the fight, and so on.

I wouldn't do it all the time, and if you try something like this the players should know the risks of turning.
WotC Mearls
05-14-07, 03:50 PM Then when they've used up their turns, hit them with the real bad guys.

This is a really good idea. A lot of D&D is built on deciding when to use a resource and when to save it. If the PCs know that there's tons of undead in a dungeon, then they have a good reason to save up turning attempts or use them in interesting ways.

FWIW, intelligent undead should always account for turning when they build their defenses. For instance, a gate in the dungeon might only open if you turn it, and it remains open for a short time. The cleric has to decide between saving a few turning attempts to help the party escape, or blowing them all on the enemy and hoping the party can rest and leave the dungeon the next day.
darkeness
05-14-07, 04:09 PM The simple fact is that undead are cool enemies, and it's lame that a basic character ability can simply make them pointless opponents. There's a lot of variants out there, and I tend to like them over the core rules.
Yes the game mechanics for turning undead are pretty crappy. If you want to make undead a challange again use the variant from complete Divine. Much better game mechanic IMO.
Phrennzy
05-14-07, 05:12 PM Yes the game mechanics for turning undead are pretty crappy. If you want to make undead a challange again use the variant from complete Divine. Much better game mechanic IMO.

What is the variant? I haven't seen it.
Grand Theft Otto
05-14-07, 05:50 PM What is the variant? I haven't seen it.

1d6 damage per cleric level, will save for half. Its in the complete divine.
Zaistars69
05-14-07, 05:53 PM What is the variant? I haven't seen it.

the varient is on age 87 I think. It basically gives the cleric positive energy burst like ability. It's a tad odd but being will based makes it interesting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sroblin 05-13-07, 04:03 PM	Well, I've played for enough years that I know turning is very effective against low level undead. I just didn't quite realize it would allow even a 2nd-level cleric to basically end any skeleton or zombie encounter with a single standard action. This seems a bit of a shame, because while you would expect turning to kill several of them, there seems to be no point in using skeletons and zombies in an encounter if there's a cleric in the party that can wipe them all out with a single check five or six times a day. Skeletons and zombies are obviously mooks that are meant to die, but it would be cool if they would pose a brief challenge in hand-to-hand instead of being a simple standard-attack away from total-wipe out. Obviously, beefing them up with class levels and hit die is one way to improve them, but it's just seems too bad that even at the lowest levels they die with a proverbial snap of a cleric's fingers. Next time, I'll probably try to have them in the vicinity of an 'unhallow" effect, too. Still, while turning should be an effective area effect, it seems a little too good at early levels against such horde undead. Skeletons should still die, and clerics should still be good at offing them, but others in the party should still be pressed to contribute in such battles as well.
bonethug0108 05-13-07, 04:09 PM	One thing to keep in mind is that you want to give the cleric something to turn, otherwise it would be a waste of ability. Second, include other monsters mixed in among skeletons and zombies. Have living and undead goblins side by side. Third, through a bunch of them at the party, enough so that the cleric can't turn them all and the other members have the kill some or they all risk being overrun. But don't put so many to cause a tpk.
Zaistars69 05-13-07, 04:17 PM	Turn undead is a silly ability. It should be a will save, 10 + 1/2 cleric level + chr modifier. Failure causes normal turn/rebuke/destroy effects. That way it is at least moderatly useful at high levels and not a "we win" at lower levels. Good times, I think I just created a new house rule.
bonethug0108 05-13-07, 04:22 PM	Turn undead is a silly ability. It should be a will save, 10 + 1/2 cleric level + chr modifier. Failure causes normal turn/rebuke/destroy effects. That way it is at least moderatly useful at high levels and not a "we win" at lower levels. Good times, I think I just created a new house rule. Agreed that it is wonky. There are many variants of it floating about. I think I've seen one similar to what you have put forth.
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 04:26 PM	Powerful undead creature with a few minions, the cleric obliterates the minions and then everyone fights the powerful creature. Cleric got to use his ability, you still get an encounter, everybody wins.
PhaedrusXY 05-13-07, 04:40 PM	Familiarize yourself with the rules on evil clerics bolstering undead, and countering Turn attempts, and add one of those in with the encounter. Those skeletons and zombies had to come from somewhere.
The Livewire 05-13-07, 04:46 PM	Turn attempts are limited, and may fail. a Ghoul necromancer (or ghoul rogue with scrolls of animate dead) will find zombies/skeletons useful to burn turn undead and absorb the dice of damage. That said, the mechanic could use some work
Satyrus 05-13-07, 05:01 PM	If the cleric is sestroying the undead right away then I would say you should use necromancer's or evil clerics. The main enemies of my Pcs is a cult of necromancer's, clerics and palemasters.
Salla 05-13-07, 05:05 PM	The thing about turning undead is, unless you actually destroy something ... it just buys time. They can come back. Additionally, at low levels, yes, Turn Undead can be very effective, but at high levels it becomes completely useless because undead HD scale much higher than their CRs do; a 17 HD Skeleton can have a CR of 7, and a 7th level Cleric ain't gonna do much about that. :) I use the Complete Divine version of Turning Undead, which just deals damage as appropriate.
An_Elder_Gamer 05-13-07, 06:25 PM	Is there any point to skeletons and zombies? Honestly? Is your imagination that limited? If we used your logic, whats the point of goblins and kobolds? As a DM, all you need is a little imagination to make these pathetic creatures useful once again. Sure, they pose no threat to your party, but to the average peasant, a couple of these nasties will ruin their day. A hundred or so of these low level undead come marching out of the nearby wilderness and start destroying nearby farms seemingly at random would cause the local officials no end of misery. Who sent them? Why are they attacking these farms in particular? Where will they strike next? Big deal, so the clerics wipe out some weak undead. They are a symptom, not the real problem. If you can't see the usefulness of these creatures, then your not using your imagination. If you're a DM, then you need to sit down and really do some thinking. Perhaps you should consider stepping aside and letting someone else run your next session. I'm sorry if this comes across a little harsh, but you just need to use your imagination.
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 06:36 PM	I use the Complete Divine version of Turning Undead, which just deals damage as appropriate. Ah yes, the good version of turn undead.
An_Elder_Gamer 05-13-07, 06:38 PM	Is there any point to skeletons and zombies? Honestly? Is your imagination that limited? If we used your logic, whats the point of goblins and kobolds? As a DM, all you need is a little imagination to make these pathetic creatures useful once again. Sure, they pose no threat to your party, but to the average peasant, a couple of these nasties will ruin their day. A hundred or so of these low level undead come marching out of the nearby wilderness and start destroying nearby farms seemingly at random would cause the local officials no end of misery. Who sent them? Why are they attacking these farms in particular? Where will they strike next? Big deal, so the clerics wipe out some weak undead. They are a symptom, not the real problem. If you can't see the usefulness of these creatures, then your not using your imagination. If you're a DM, then you need to sit down and really do some thinking. Perhaps you should consider stepping aside and letting someone else run your next session. I'm sorry if this comes across a little harsh, but you just need to use your imagination.
fatal error 05-13-07, 10:17 PM	I'm sorry if this comes across a little harsh, but you just need to use your imagination. Yes, that's a little harsh. Okay, so you can make undead-centric plots without relying on zombies and skeletons being the main encounters. Does that fix the actual problem that zombies and skeletons can't be used as main encounters? No, it just circumvents it. If it is in the Monster Manual, it should probably be able to be used as the meat of an encounter on some level. And not just with NPCs. I'll tack onto this discussion a related problem that can come along with some of these proposed solutions: Failed Turnings. If you design an encounter based mainly around skeletons and zombies, and expecting them to actually take part, then a successful turning ruins your day. At the same time, however, if you boost the encounters to include additional non-undead or higher level undead, then a failed turn means the zombies and skeletons do still take part. In this latter case, it could be that the encounter becomes too much for the party to handle. Essentially, Turn Undead is a save-or-die at level 1, and that makes it difficult to balance encounters where it can have an effect. At least, that's how I'm seeing it.
Krusk 05-13-07, 11:42 PM	you could always throw in the occasional undead minion or body gaurd for the BBEG. do this knowing the cleric will destroy them quite quickly. Now your cleric gets the satisfaction of being vital to the party over the healbot. If they didn't have the cleric it would have been much harder. In all honestly its really not all that diffrent than throwing some traps at the party when they have a decent rogue. *totally ignore that if your cleric is not playing the healbot route. They can be used basically as a morale booster, or a chance for a cleric who is lacking in power to show off for a bit.
Prof. Pacali 05-14-07, 10:12 AM	You could always have an evil cleric bolster the skeletons and zombies, making it harder for the cleric to turn them.
forsaken1111 05-14-07, 11:05 AM	Well the stereotypical zombie/skeletal horde scenario is still very useful. If you have a group of 4-5 level adventurers, pitting them up against 40-50 low-CR undead can be amusing. They will often have fun with the encounter, which is the point of DND, and come up with fun ways to overcome the horde. I did this to my level 7/8 party of 7 PC's, pitting them against several hundred lower undead and some ghouls/ghasts mixed in. We did it on a map, using paper markers with letters to keep track of the undead. They had a blast and used the environment to great effect.
the_Luggage 05-14-07, 12:41 PM	Libris Mortis has some funky rules about large numbers of undead staining an area with negative energy. This basically gives them all turn resistance of some degree I think. Have a look at it, it's a good read for an undead using DM. I'm using a similar rule in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft Zombie infestation bit, giving all undead in Barovia turn resistance +1. All though the zombies in that case have 6HD so it's not so big a deal.
Sroblin 05-14-07, 01:11 PM	Well, to address a number of things: I did use other monsters in the encounter, and they were more resilient to turning. Of course, skeletons on there own imply more powerful creators and benefit from interesting commanders. My problem is that for a 2nd level party, skeletons should make a decent horde-fight for most character (including wizards), but that even significant numbers of them can become instantly neutralized by a cleric. I had the skeletons employ surprise, cover, and tactics that would have made for an interesting combat against all the other character, (remember, skeletons have good initiatve, decent AC, and DR5 versus all but bashing attacks, which means they are pretty tough versus ranged attacks) but the clerics turning ability made these irrelevant. Now, this is my fault for failing to calculate just how effective turning was even at 2nd level, but it also seems to reflect a flaw in game design. Clerics should have a useful turning ability- but it shouldn't be so powerful that skeleton/zombie encounters get finished in the first round, even at low levels. Now yes, I could pit three to four times that many undead mooks, (Forty to fifty, I have heard suggested), and count on the cleric to kill swathes with his turning, but that would just make the rest of a very low-level party suffer because of the clerics extra-powerful abilities, while being unable to put a comparable dent in their numbers. I think unhallow and bolstering are good tactics, however, to curb but not totally nerf a clerics turn undead power. Now, I feel 'Elder_Gamer' can get off his high-horse about my limited imagination and experience- I've been DMing for 4 years, and its not been an unmitigated disaster. I'm not implying that easily-turnable undead aren't threat to everyone else but clerics, and that they're 'useless' if they can be easily killed by a cleric- indead, aside from turning vulnerability, they are effective monsters for their CR. However, this vulnerability limits their ability to make good game encounters, irrespective of the internal logic of the fantasy setting. Bringing up goblins and kobolds, however brings up the crux of the issue , because had the same encounter involved kobolds or goblins, it would have been challenging multi-round battle which would have forced the (2nd level) party to use tactics and deal with difficult positioning. Instead, their role in the battle was nullified through a single action by 2nd level character. Now, as skeletons and zombie battles are thematically cool, I feel it is reasonable to criticize a game mechanic that makes them insta-die even against a very low-level party. While Cleric's should have an effective turning ability, and I still think they would still have a purpose in the world, I would just rather that purpose include (meta-game wise) being a reasonably engaging encounter for a low-level party.
Grand Theft Otto 05-14-07, 01:24 PM	Turn undead is a pretty damn poorly designed ability. Due to how incredibly crappy undead HD are, undead creatures get TONS of them compared to their CR. The turning check is a d20+ charisma check. A result of 22 is required to turn level +4 (and this is the max it goes). A 2nd level cleric trying to turn a CR 2 bugbear zombie needs a 22 on their charisma check to even have a chance. A CR 4 minotaur zombie is unturnable until 8th level. A piddly CR 6 grey render zombie is unturnable until 16th level (and again, only if you get a 22+ on an ability check). Its only marginally better against skeletons. On the contrary, turn undead is largely pointless against skeletons and zombies.
DreadArchon 05-14-07, 01:33 PM	a 17 HD Skeleton can have a CR of 7, and a 7th level Cleric ain't gonna do much about that. :) Well, there's two items in Libris Mortis that each give nearby undead -4 turn resistance, and there's another there that gives the cleric +4 effective levels, so using like 25k gold and Libris Mortis, that 17 HD skeleton suddenly has only 5 HD for turning purposes against the level 7 cleric.
Grand Theft Otto 05-14-07, 02:48 PM	Well, there's two items in Libris Mortis that each give nearby undead -4 turn resistance, and there's another there that gives the cleric +4 effective levels, so using like 25k gold and Libris Mortis, that 17 HD skeleton suddenly has only 5 HD for turning purposes against the level 7 cleric. True. I'd forgotten about the patch items to fix the poorly done turn undead rules. Though this just leads to issues where undead with HD relative to their CR are a joke. They should have went back to the drawing board on this for the revision of 3.5.
forsaken1111 05-14-07, 02:50 PM	True. I'd forgotten about the patch items to fix the poorly done turn undead rules. Though this just leads to issues where undead with HD relative to their CR are a joke. They should have went back to the drawing board on this for the revision of 3.5. There's also a magic item in the MIC with charges/day that you can burn to boost your effective cleric level for a turning check.
Krusk 05-14-07, 03:02 PM	So someone who specilizes in undead turning can turn the amazingly powerful undead. I say let them get a reward for specilization. That is like never giving the ranger an encounter vs his favored enemy.
forsaken1111 05-14-07, 03:10 PM	I can say that when I did put my PC's in a situation where they faced some undead, the two clerics were brutally efficient at turning or destroying them. They walked through that dungeon without casting a single spell until the 3rd sublevel, and I was MEAN to them too. They just had a good combination of turning and melee, the spellcasters really didn't need to bother until they hit the hard stuff.
LCD2YOU 05-14-07, 03:40 PM	In a word: Cannon-Fodder. When you send skeletons at them en masse (not enough to get many Exp for) that can let others know that the party's there. If you give them Zombies instead, have them grapple the front line guys until they grab someone and pull them down. The Clerics who like to turn are then confronted by not enough turning to handle the bad guys who can really hurt them. Also note that an effective way is to make the area that the undead are in Unhallowed. That's not a difficult thing to do and as it last's for a while, it makes the turning even more fun when combined with Bane. Then when they've used up their turns, hit them with the real bad guys.
WotC Mearls 05-14-07, 03:48 PM	The thing that frustrates me is that at low levels, turning simply negates undead, but at high levels most undead have too many HD for turning to affect them. The simple fact is that undead are cool enemies, and it's lame that a basic character ability can simply make them pointless opponents. There's a lot of variants out there, and I tend to like them over the core rules. I have had some success in making turning a bad idea because of what happens when the skeletons and zombies run away. For instance, I had one dungeon where the skeletons had bells nailed to their bones. When they rain, the bells rang and alerted the rest of the tomb complex. Killing the skeletons before they could run away was a big challenge, and turning only made things worse. You could do a similar thing with turned undead setting off traps (a tripwire causes a fireball to explode in the room), luring monsters into the fight, and so on. I wouldn't do it all the time, and if you try something like this the players should know the risks of turning.
WotC Mearls 05-14-07, 03:50 PM	Then when they've used up their turns, hit them with the real bad guys. This is a really good idea. A lot of D&D is built on deciding when to use a resource and when to save it. If the PCs know that there's tons of undead in a dungeon, then they have a good reason to save up turning attempts or use them in interesting ways. FWIW, intelligent undead should always account for turning when they build their defenses. For instance, a gate in the dungeon might only open if you turn it, and it remains open for a short time. The cleric has to decide between saving a few turning attempts to help the party escape, or blowing them all on the enemy and hoping the party can rest and leave the dungeon the next day.
darkeness 05-14-07, 04:09 PM	The simple fact is that undead are cool enemies, and it's lame that a basic character ability can simply make them pointless opponents. There's a lot of variants out there, and I tend to like them over the core rules. Yes the game mechanics for turning undead are pretty crappy. If you want to make undead a challange again use the variant from complete Divine. Much better game mechanic IMO.
Phrennzy 05-14-07, 05:12 PM	Yes the game mechanics for turning undead are pretty crappy. If you want to make undead a challange again use the variant from complete Divine. Much better game mechanic IMO. What is the variant? I haven't seen it.
Grand Theft Otto 05-14-07, 05:50 PM	What is the variant? I haven't seen it. 1d6 damage per cleric level, will save for half. Its in the complete divine.
Zaistars69 05-14-07, 05:53 PM	What is the variant? I haven't seen it. the varient is on age 87 I think. It basically gives the cleric positive energy burst like ability. It's a tad odd but being will based makes it interesting.