Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 12-16-07, 07:02 AM	That weirdest responses you have received thread got me thinking about something which has been bugging me for years now. The experience let me with a very uneasy memory of it, even though it was not a very major incident. A few years back I started visiting a local church where I used to live. They had this "play" about getting sucked into the evil and material things in the world, and it started off with this guy sitting at a table in a very dark room wearing a satanic robe (probably a Grim Reaper costume from Halloween). All over the table there were things like drug needles and boiling pots (the Halloween steam kind), but right at the center around this guy was obviously D&D related material. I recall there was some dice on the table with a pouch/bag, there were some old core books (probably 3.0), and in front of the guy I can still clearly remember a DM screen. What came later really doesn't matter, but soon after you got a feel of what was supposedly going on a lot of colored lights started flashing (rave like I guess) and the guy got up and started dancing around madly like he was possessed. A few days later on Sunday some of the teenagers were still talking about it with some of the church staff. I made the mistake of mentioning that I played the game, and the pastor came up to me, put his hands on my shoulders, looked me square in the eyes and said something on the lines of "I know god will show you the way.I will be praying for you.". I have never set foot in a church since. Anyone else have similar experiences? I don't know why, but it still bugs me to this day. I know that only a small percent of religious/Christian people are like this, but the fact that people still feel this way and fear a simple game like this still bothers me. It also upsets me, since it reminds me that every new generation will forget and repeat all the mistakes of the previous one. Kinda disappointing.
Seeker95 12-16-07, 09:21 AM	Anyone else ever have a bad experience with religious people about your gaming?Nope.
BlaineTog 12-16-07, 10:40 AM	I know that only a small percent of religious/Christian people are like this, but the fact that people still feel this way and fear a simple game like this still bothers me. It also upsets me, since it reminds me that every new generation will forget and repeat all the mistakes of the previous one. Kinda disappointing.I see no reason to let them get to you. And it's not really true that every generation "forgets and repeats all the mistakes of the previous." Generally, they get better at some things and worse at others.
Avatar of Kokusho 12-16-07, 10:47 AM	I once got into an interesting argument with a Catholic priest about "why D&D is evil".
Darrett 12-16-07, 11:19 AM	They're probably just buying into the Jack Chick idea of what D&D is about. Whether D&D is evil only has to do with how it's played, and even then, it's only a mirror of individual gamers' core values and beliefs. For instance, most people play the hero or a good character. There are a few, however, how would play an evil character and live out fantasies of doing extremely evil things... any use of the Book of Vile Darkness comes to mind. That's the sort of thing that would get you taken aside in any of my games, and that's also the sort of thing that these groups take as the norm in a D&D game.
tuby2008theMTGwizard 12-16-07, 01:45 PM	I personally never had an issue but i have been doing some research for a school project. THe things that religous people have said about DND is STUIPD. THey use the same argurment to get rid of DND every time. Dont even get me started on B.A.D.D. the creators son commited suicide, he played DnD, but worshiped Hitler. She goes blamming DnD for everything. Wat ever.
greensentinel7 12-16-07, 01:47 PM	First of all, as a christian who plays D&D, let me apologize for what happened to you. As far as I am concerned that type of response from a christian is unacceptable, unfortunately it happens all too often. I remember when I was first introduced to D&D, a friend of mine in our christian jr. high introduced me to the game. It was and still is difficult to shake the stigma that other christians have about this game, and all other rpg's for that matter. The general concensus from most christians is that role playing is a gateway into the occult. This is generally when I get on my high horse and explain that acting in general is role playing and by their definition of role playing, they should cancel the christmas play as it the same as playing an rpg - sans dice. I also try to explain to people that rpgs are nothing more than dice, paper and an imagination and that there is absolutely no witchcraft/occult involved. Again, unfortunately most people just look at the artwork, call me/us "lost" and then go watch lord of the rings with their friends and applaud the christian overtones of Tolkiens's fantastic world :ahem: Ok my rant is done, I hope that some day you meet a christian that is more inclined to evaluate you based on who you are and not the game you play.
vegetalss4 12-16-07, 01:58 PM	Again, unfortunately most people just look at the artwork, call me/us "lost" and then go watch lord of the rings with their friends and applaud the christian overtones of Tolkiens's fantastic world :ahem: could be worse... they could go play Neverwinter nights other than that. this proplem seems to only exist in america
Sunic_Flames 12-16-07, 02:04 PM	You are expecting intelligence and reason from those who defy it. What do you expect? I had someone who thought I was worshipping the devil because I borrowed the first edition player's guide from someone. Why? One of their little friends said so. They also said they were glad I didn't actually get the game before they figured it out and took it away. :rolleyes: Ignorance, the currency of the world.
Grumman 12-16-07, 02:33 PM	Whether D&D is evil only has to do with how it's played, and even then, it's only a mirror of individual gamers' core values and beliefs. For instance, most people play the hero or a good character. There are a few, however, how would play an evil character and live out fantasies of doing extremely evil things... any use of the Book of Vile Darkness comes to mind. Even then, it's still isn't real. There's no devils, demons or assorted bad stuff involved. It's almost as if these strongly religious people have trouble discerning the difference between reality and fiction...
denaekall 12-16-07, 02:52 PM	When I first got into D&D I was christian. At first, I had to deal with a lot of the negative assumptions that they had with the game. It did not help that those who found out I played spread the word through the church so that they could all do their part to "help" me. Strange, because before that I was the "youth advisor" (a do nothing title which basically said that I was the youth they would send other youth too if they needed someone to connect to) and suddenly it was like I was a leaper. Over time I got over it, and christianity itself. Though I will not claim my liking of D&D to be what turned me away from the church, it definately left its mark. I find now that, through gaming with new people, I can connect far better than I ever could at church. In down time around the table we can freely speak our minds and let others know what we feel and, even if they don't agree with what you say, they accept your views. This being the exact opposite of what I found to be true of Churchs of any denomination (and I have tried many in a failed attempt to restore my faith). Let others think what they will, It is your own thoughts and values that really matter. Forget what others think you "should" do, make up your own mind.
Mojo_Rat 12-16-07, 03:47 PM	Years ago when i was a teenager working for my parents and Listening to CBC Radio (about all that was ever on at the family business) They had a woman come on one of the shows (i forget which) and did a recording of her talking about D&D. She basically compared it to doing most of the worst drugs imaginable at the time. I honestly thought she sounded like a lunatic but she was quite convinced of it. A few years after that my girl friend at the time had this friend who was quite convinced D&D taught you to worship satan and do magic and there was no convincing otherwise. To be honest though I really dont know what sets one depiction of magic as good (Narnia?) and another as Bad (harry potter?) but it seems to me that any depiction of magic in a positive light in literature apparntly amounts to turning children into witches.
holybarbarian 12-16-07, 04:31 PM	ugh, i hate it when other Christians make the rest of us look like crazy wack-jobs. I'm Catholic myself, and I have yet to meet somebody who has a serious problem with DnD. To explain the "official" stance of the Church; we hold that magic is out there, but it's not a neutral force. You either get the good stuff like Prophecy or Healing from God, or you get the bad stuff like Necromancy from Satan or some unaffiliated demon. The idea with DnD is that none of those spells would actually work, so it's ok for a mature player to play, but if some idiot actually trys to do something they might actually do something, and it's not gonna be from God's side. Personally, i think the idea of randomly summoning a horrible Demon is absurd, but the Church is of the "dont take chances" point of view. My only religious confrontation was with the "militant atheist" type, but we grounded it before it got out of hand. I apologize that you guy's have had to deal with this crap, and i'm praying for the souls of those who are blinded by their own self-rightousness.
ADHadh 12-16-07, 04:54 PM	this proplem seems to only exist in america God bless America! You take away most of the modern world's problems with ignorance and lack of common sense! :P To explain the "official" stance of the Church; we hold that magic is out there, but it's not a neutral force. You either get the good stuff like Prophecy or Healing from God, or you get the bad stuff like Necromancy from Satan or some unaffiliated demon. The idea with DnD is that none of those spells would actually work, so it's ok for a mature player to play, but if some idiot actually trys to do something they might actually do something, and it's not gonna be from God's side. Personally, i think the idea of randomly summoning a horrible Demon is absurd, but the Church is of the "dont take chances" point of view. Yup, Divine Magic is real, only really difficult to use properly. Really sad to hear that some people's attempts to attract new believers have the very opposite effect.
JuniperTree 12-16-07, 05:25 PM	:) Well I'm openly non-denominational pagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-paganism) Nope I do not worship Satan :) I honor the gods of Britian and Scotland from before Christ. I've got nothing against any other religion or Jesus or anything. But anyways, a few of Christians I've met seem to think D&D made me pagan or that pagaism made me play D&D. I did discover both at about the same time, but honestly I see no correlation between the two. I had one lady freak out a few years back. A friend of a friend asked if he could bring a new girlfriend to see my all woman game I GM. She wanted to see what it was all about. What he failed to mention is that she was raised hardcore southern baptist and had misgivings about D&D being evil. So she walks into my house and spots the little clay figures of my gods on the mantle (Oh oh idol worship!) along with various candles and potted plants (eek nature worship!) then spots the D&D stuff on the big coffee table (tools of Satan!). Lets just say that she now hates D&D more than she did before. D'oh! The only way my spirituality affects my D&D is when a player wants to be a cleric of Athena or something. Sorry but I belive in Her, so lets have you play a cleric of a fictional god okay? ;) That way I'm not looking over my shoulder everytime the barbarian shouts "Hail Thor!" lol I've played with many of Christians, we keep our RL religion and politics out of the game. And I haven't converted anyone yet, using D&D or not. ;)
Bloodsoul 12-16-07, 05:29 PM	I think I can only recall from recent memory meeting one person that might have something to say about D&D; I only assume this because this person commented possitively about a drawing I had done, a young, female angel that.. how shall we say, probably wasn't dressed too appropriately (depending on your tastes)? Then again, I swear people people stare in awe at the fine detail of a dress or armor and ignore the bountiful busoms and excessive cleavage. >_>
Darrett 12-16-07, 07:17 PM	Even then, it's still isn't real. There's no devils, demons or assorted bad stuff involved. It's almost as if these strongly religious people have trouble discerning the difference between reality and fiction... Well, it's not real, but that's a bit like saying that looking at pornographic art is just fine because it's not real. If a game is being played that emphasizes the use of demonic summoning or the like to achieve your goals, then I'd have a big problem with that game. It's entirely about how the game is used, and using an argument like "Well, I'm not -really- killing children in an orphanage, it's only a game!" isn't a morally defensible one. It's somewhat like saying it's not going to affect your teenager when you let him watch horror movies all night because it's not real. I've never been in a group that plays like what I'm describing, but I think it's important to remember that D&D is like anything else in this world; it certainly -can- be a source of evil.
Horus_Sungod 12-16-07, 07:53 PM	:) The only way my spirituality affects my D&D is when a player wants to be a cleric of Athena or something. Sorry but I belive in Her, so lets have you play a cleric of a fictional god okay? ;) That way I'm not looking over my shoulder everytime the barbarian shouts "Hail Thor!" It must feel pretty weird to see the gods you believe in being statted. "Oh, and (insert greek god here) can lift 2 tons, see, his strength score tells us so". And to see them placed alongside pelor and stuff. Imagine if (in 3rd ed :) ) the christian god had stats. It would irritate a lot of people (DR 21+, I suppose). On my part, I live in Quebec (Canada), a place where the government and the people threw out christianity (and nationalised the belongning of the church), as they were really repressive. Unless I would seek the most active religious communities, no one would say that I worship "this and that", and so on. (Which doesn't remove social stigma, but heh, the cool kids don'T try to burn me.)
coastiemike 12-16-07, 07:59 PM	I grew up in the Bible belt of middle Georgia. At the church I was forced to go to, I saw burnings of D&D books, as well as my mom's Beetle album collection. That was in the late 70s and early 80s. The only time we got to play D&D while growing up was on Boy Scout camping trips. A group of us would pile into a tent and play all night. We only got caught once and promised the BSA leader we wouldn't do it again. High school in the mid 80s was much easier as we would hang out at a friend's house who had sane parents and allowed (and even encouraged) us to play. To this day, my parents still avoid any mention of D&D. My wife and I just moved into the house, and in the midst of the move, my dad learned I had about 30 boxes full of D&D books and minis. Needless to say, I had to load and unload the boxes by myself because my dad and my psychotic, Bible-thumping brother-in-law wouldn't touch the boxes. I made on off hand joke that I could turn any evil spirits that might bother them but they didn't find that funny. Anyways, I am currently a crimes against children detective. My wife is a para-legal, and my 12 year old is an A and B honor roll student (due in part to me allowing him to play D&D and what he has learned from the game). In all of my investigations over the past 5 years, I have seen people of walks of life and in all different careers who could violate a child in the worse ways possible, much more than any game could do. It's funny that in more than 300 investigations, I have only foundone of my suspects who played D&D. I am still a Christian by belief, but after my last church and the pastor who was arrested for extortion and rape, I tend to steer clear of churches and worship on my own. I find many of the people in churches much more hypocritical than not. Actually, it is kind of interesting that the people who bash not just D&D, but everything that doesn't fall under to their definition of what is right, actually drove me away from the church than kept me there where they could "save my soul." I always reminded them, also, that they couldn't save my soul. Only God could do that. They would just blak at me and walk away. This happened in three different churches. I figured third time was a charm and I am very, very reluctant to ever go back to a church again. The point I always bring up to my parents when D&D creeps into the evil category during our very rare discussions on the subject, more priests, pastors and rabbis have been arrested for crimes against children than D&D players in my experiences. Then, I finish with my belief that God keeps a special place in hell for people who harm a child, especially a priest, pastor or rabbi. Me and other D&Ders will be waving at them from the pearly gates.
Grumman 12-16-07, 10:47 PM	Well, it's not real, but that's a bit like saying that looking at pornographic art is just fine because it's not real. Does the act of looking at pornographic art cause harm? It's somewhat like saying it's not going to affect your teenager when you let him watch horror movies all night because it's not real. Excluding the obvious consequences of sleep deprivation, is there evidence to suggest that watching horror movies causes harm to anyone?
Salla 12-16-07, 11:24 PM	I don't know if I'd call it a 'bad' experience, since I rarely have issues with telling people who are butting into my personal business where to go and how to get there and give them bus fare, but I have had 'experiences'.
Mrloki 12-16-07, 11:39 PM	well i actually got a recent one...happened in this past march. A friend of mine, who helped start our group Died. He fell from ladder, and hurt his leg, that night he drank himself to sleep to dull the pain, and a blood clot formed and killed him. Well at his funeral the preacher was giving the sermon and such, and he decided to mention that, his drinking(he was a drunk) was caused by those he associated himself with. Well our group are our only friends that we consistently hung out with. So we had a Christan preacher telling us, that we were bad influences and helped lead our friend to his death. (he was 39) We tried to bury him with his dice bag, but they wouldn't let us...and we left the sermon and just went to the burial. We gave his bag to his son (14) and are waiting a couple years to let him into our group. (we got a mature group...nobody under 16 rule) But as a catholic(or really any religion really), you have to understand that you have to forgive and pray for those people who do not understand, for they are truly blind by their false convections.
BlaineTog 12-17-07, 12:18 AM	To be honest though I really dont know what sets one depiction of magic as good (Narnia?) and another as Bad (harry potter?) but it seems to me that any depiction of magic in a positive light in literature apparntly amounts to turning children into witches.Lewis' Narnia series is set in a Christian world (he'd define it as speculative fiction rather than fantasy, and Aslan is really just Jesus for Narnia -- no alegory, Aslan really is Jesus), whereas Harry Potter is set in a secular world. I'm not passing judgements either way, but that's probably what sets them off. To explain the "official" stance of the Church; we hold that magic is out there, but it's not a neutral force. You either get the good stuff like Prophecy or Healing from God, or you get the bad stuff like Necromancy from Satan or some unaffiliated demon. The idea with DnD is that none of those spells would actually work, so it's ok for a mature player to play, but if some idiot actually trys to do something they might actually do something, and it's not gonna be from God's side. Personally, i think the idea of randomly summoning a horrible Demon is absurd, but the Church is of the "dont take chances" point of view.Prophesy and Healing aren't magic, but miracles. The difference is that spells magic are attempts to force the universe to obey your will, whereas prayer and miracles are requests which are always supposed to have "but not my will but yours be done" attached as a postscript. It must feel pretty weird to see the gods you believe in being statted. "Oh, and (insert greek god here) can lift 2 tons, see, his strength score tells us so". And to see them placed alongside pelor and stuff. Imagine if (in 3rd ed ) the christian god had stats. It would irritate a lot of people (DR 21+, I suppose).First, I find your name massively ironic. Second, I'm Catholic and I try to stat Jesus every so often, so I wouldn't think it'd be *that* weird. Does the act of looking at pornographic art cause harm?Official stance is yes. If nothing else, it's a temptation to sin, and willingly walking into temptation is a sin itself. Plus there's that by looking at pornography, you financially support it, which is immoral. I'm not trying to prove anything, just explaining.
ArgulFraster 12-17-07, 12:55 AM	I actually had a rather nice experience discussing D&D and other RPGs with a Jehovah's Witness once. I was on a walk and struck up a conversation, and she came across as very well learned. She looked at her faith from all sides-she even learned Hebrew so she could read the Torah and the original bible to get to know it better. And she was quite happy to come to a game next time we set one up. I really do need to get her to come....
CryoSilver 12-17-07, 01:02 AM	Official stance is yes. If nothing else, it's a temptation to sin, and willingly walking into temptation is a sin itself. Plus there's that by looking at pornography, you financially support it, which is immoral. I'm not trying to prove anything, just explaining. I believe the explanation is that Jesus says in one of the Gospels that adultery of the eyes is as grave a sin as adultery of the body, or something to that effect. I'm an ex-Catholic and studied the religion extensively (along with many others) when I went out to find my new religion. I have been bugged a few times by various religious loonies about my D&D hobby, but usually they pick on something else. Like my religion (Taoism)or my musical tastes (black and death metal).
JuniperTree 12-17-07, 04:11 AM	It must feel pretty weird to see the gods you believe in being statted. "Oh, and (insert greek god here) can lift 2 tons, see, his strength score tells us so". And to see them placed alongside pelor and stuff. Imagine if (in 3rd ed :) ) the christian god had stats. It would irritate a lot of people (DR 21+, I suppose). Not really. I mean, most books about my gods start as: "The barbarous early Europeans needed explanations for such things as weather, disease, crop failure and death. So they invented gods to explain natural phenomena and worshipped them” You read enough mythology and history books that describe your gods as invented, you are not going to blink at a D&D book stating those same gods for gamming purposes. Most pagans I have played with find it funny or cute. On my part, I live in Quebec (Canada), a place where the government and the people threw out christianity (and nationalised the belongning of the church), as they were really repressive. Unless I would seek the most active religious communities, no one would say that I worship "this and that", and so on. (Which doesn't remove social stigma, but heh, the cool kids don'T try to burn me.) I’m from the west coast of British Columbia. If you are Canadian, you know I live in one of the most liberal parts of the world. The only times I have ever run across real hatred or ignorance is when travelling in the USA or Canada’s prairie provinces, or meeting people from there. I lived in Houston for 6 months and found a lot more religiously motivated backlash for playing D&D (and/or for being pagan) there than any other place and time in my life. Sadly.
Ariakus 12-17-07, 08:57 AM	Official stance is yes. If nothing else, it's a temptation to sin, and willingly walking into temptation is a sin itself. Plus there's that by looking at pornography, you financially support it, which is immoral. I'm not trying to prove anything, just explaining. Nothing official about it, it's only a sin if you believe in sin. I personally don't, so therefore I cannot sin because I can't do something I don't believe exists, sins exist in the minds and books of christians, to everyone else it is a way of life free of religiously oppressed psychobabble. I hate organized religions of any kind, spirituality is a personal matter and does not belong to a community of people. And looking at most porn is free nowadays BTW, just Google it... I personally have not had any experiences with religious people vs. D&D, but I grew up seeing D&D torn to shreds by christians on TV when the hatred (or fear of the unknown) was at it's strongest and always wondered why they didn't see past the game that normal, everyday people play...and into the screwed up minds of the kids (and their parents) that killed themselves or someone else. The kid was obviously screwed up to begin with, it had nothing to do with D&D...
RobbyPants 12-17-07, 09:19 AM	Anyone else have similar experiences? I don't know why, but it still bugs me to this day. I know that only a small percent of religious/Christian people are like this, but the fact that people still feel this way and fear a simple game like this still bothers me. It also upsets me, since it reminds me that every new generation will forget and repeat all the mistakes of the previous one. Kinda disappointing. When I first started playing about 14 years ago, I got a bit of grief over it. After a year or so, I've never really been bothered about it. In my experience, anyone I've met who has these beliefs is usually just following what someone else said and/or what they read. They often have a bunch of reasons why it's bad and maybe an anecdotal story or two to "prove" their point. If I logically back them into a corner, I get one of three responses: "I don't know all the specifics. So-and-so told me it's bad and they have all the info." - this is annoying because they're simply parroting someone else. "You're just buying into the lies." - this is annoying because they can simply take the stance of "I'm right, you're wrong, anything you say is simply lies.", taking logic out of the equation. "Agree to disagree." - this one I can live with. We can't all agree all the time, but at least we can be adults about it.
Toran_A_Sunder 12-17-07, 09:40 AM	I'm sure in HS I had a discussion or two about the "evils" or D&D with some of our more fundamentalist students. But thankfully I've been fortunate enough to belong to liberal minded churches (espiscopal and unitarian churches mostly) where we've supported things like gay rights, a womans right to choose, etc. Plus coming from a home of 6 children where the oldest two played D&D, the third oldest has eccentricities out the wazzoo, and the youngest three (including me) just being plain weird :D we never had issues with our parents or anything baning us from D&D or the like because of the hand of Satan. As a christian (in a sense) I don't appologize for the acts of other, less socially cognizant christian groups. And I urge other christians to not appologize for them either. You're not at fault for the hatred and intolerance they spread. Neither, really, is christianity responsible, though some may disagree. Certain people are just intollerant to things they dont understand, i.e. D&D, homosexuals, abortion, etc. And they seek some sort of proof to suport their intolerance; in this case, is christianity. But if it werent their church and faith it would be something else. Let others be responsible for their own actions. And Ariakus, keep in mind that sin isn't just D&D or sexual liberation. Sin also encompasses murder, rape, adultery, deception, and other things. So while not believeing in sin may be a life free of religious psychobabbling terminology, that doesn't make it free of wrong doings. Yes to some people sin encompasses silly things like D&D or Harry Potter, but it's not always silly things. Not trying to start an argument or put words in your mouth, just saying ;)
PrinceOfTheVoid 12-17-07, 10:49 AM	I've had quite a few problems in that respect, but since I was a devout anti-christian (satanist at the time actually) I was used to arguing with religious people about far more serious matters than a game where I'm conjuring demons. My dad tried to talk to me about the game once (thought it was suicidial) but I just turned up the Deicide and told him what he could do to his god. Hasn't bothered me about it since.
BlaineTog 12-17-07, 12:06 PM	Nothing official about it, it's only a sin if you believe in sin.Obviously. I thought the "of the Catholic Church" was rather clear. And looking at most porn is free nowadays BTW, just Google it...Looking at it gives them ad money. At the very least it gives them page hits, which encourages them to continue. As a christian (in a sense) I don't appologize for the acts of other, less socially cognizant christian groups. And I urge other christians to not appologize for them either. You're not at fault for the hatred and intolerance they spread.Sure you are. It's part of the human condition that we are all responsible on some level for the misdeeds of others. This is generally less explicit in western Chrisianity, but Easter Orthodox wears it on its sleeve, from what I understand. In any case, you can't become a saint without apologizing for all sins ever. Again, I'm not trying to debate anything, certainly not here. I disagreed with a lot more of Toran's post than I'm posting about, because I'm just trying to explain things. If you would like to argue, my PM box isn't full.
Dog_O_War 12-17-07, 12:29 PM	Wow, some people out there need to move away from the farm, as I find only the poorly educated to have this opinion on D&D (the, "it's full of the devil!"). I had a friend (well, more of an aquaintence as we only hung around at my other buddies' place) that got sucked into the Mormon religion. He was easy to talk to, but the guy was kinda dumb to begin with. He was actually the childhood friend of another buddy of mine, and his stories of how he's changed (re:new mormon) are enough to make you feel bad. Before they could talk for hours; now when he visits (which he attempts not to do now) they talk about... I think cereal was the big topic last time. This guy (who was your stereotypical RP nerd) had found a girlfriend, and she was some devout mormon. They never "did it" until they were married, and to marry her he had to become mormon himself. Before they were married (before he was mormon) she said she didn't mind roleplaying (he was a big rifts rpg fan; it really wasn't about D&D at all, though he did own a PHB), but afterwards she began claiming that she couldn't sleep because there was "evil" radiating from the books. The mass-produced books (if evil could be marketed this way, you'd think it'd be put into coffee or something). From there, the next phone-call my one friend (this guy's childhood friend) got was a life-less - as he described - "hey man, I'm selling all my books." After that it went all down-hill. We think he got caught in the honey-trap; and from there his own weakness lead him to be changed into a lifeless, jobless (there isn't much of a labor market in rural alberta), two-kids (cause condoms are a "sin"), trailer-park living, shell-of-a-man. While this didn't affect myself directly, this is now a topic of sadness in the group.
CosmicChaos 12-17-07, 02:54 PM	I have had many people at work and school try to tell me that D&D is Evil or wrong. I find this so offensive that spend as much time as it takes to not only convince them that D&D is a Good thing, but that they need to start playing it immediately. I don't stop until they try to play D&D at least once. The strategy doesn't always work, but it usually stops them from calling D&D the work of the Devil.
Ariakus 12-17-07, 03:37 PM	And Ariakus, keep in mind that sin isn't just D&D or sexual liberation. Sin also encompasses murder, rape, adultery, deception, and other things. So while not believeing in sin may be a life free of religious psychobabbling terminology, that doesn't make it free of wrong doings. Yes to some people sin encompasses silly things like D&D or Harry Potter, but it's not always silly things. Not trying to start an argument or put words in your mouth, just saying ;) I never said anything about wrong doings, I mentioned "sin" because it is a word created by religion to mean something to religious people, and not being religious myself.... it means nothing to me. Now wrong-doing is something that is logical and not based on a religious stance, but of inherently (in most people anyway) moral code written into our DNA and taught from generation to generation. BlaineTog Obviously. I thought the "of the Catholic Church" was rather clear. Well then by all means go back and quote from your post where you said that, because I've reread it about 4 times now and the closest thing to what you call "clear" is you stating you were catholic. Looking at it gives them ad money. At the very least it gives them page hits, which encourages them to continue. Money talks, BS walks....if no one goes to the adds...no money is made. And I don't see any evil societies thriving off of page hits.... that's like saying that every time you walk by the Temple of Lolth and look at it, it strengthens them or empowers them by looking, when in reality it's only empowers them if you actively join or kill in her name. I have to agree with a few other people on different, but similar threads, that religion and D&D should remain as separate as church and State. It doesn't matter what religion you are, leave D&D out of it, or leave your religion out of D&D... it's just a game... not unlike "Life" or "Monopoly" where you role-play greedy tycoon's... those same christians that bash D&D should look at those common household games that corrupt our youth with greed:eek:
key 12-17-07, 04:06 PM	After that it went all down-hill. We think he got caught in the honey-trap; and from there his own weakness lead him to be changed into a lifeless, jobless (there isn't much of a labor market in rural alberta), two-kids (cause condoms are a "sin"), trailer-park living, shell-of-a-man. While this didn't affect myself directly, this is now a topic of sadness in the group. I respect him. I too would exchange D&D for a Mormon hottie.
Dog_O_War 12-17-07, 04:15 PM	I respect him. I too would exchange D&D for a Mormon hottie. And if by hottie you mean "I burned my eyes out in an attempt to reach my brain" then yes, I too would exchange D&D to burn the image from my retinas. Basically she is a short, fat, troll-looking "woman" who is really annoying to talk to that we still cannot fathom why he married her - beyond sexual desperation. Seriously, she's not pretty.
key 12-17-07, 04:32 PM	Well, at least he got some kids out of the deal.
Dog_O_War 12-17-07, 04:46 PM	Well, at least he got some kids out of the deal. Troll-kids, that he technically cannot support without the help of her parents; the whole situation is sad really, and I feel sorry for those kids. They will not have a choice as to their upbringing. One stupid father, one stupid mother, stifled by an overtly zealous community of religious fanatics, all the while poor. Actually, if either one of them grows up to be a writer, they'll be rich thanks to a lifetime of oppressive background. Not like Stalin oppressive, but more like Fidel oppressive (Fidel being a dictator that could atleast feed his people).
Grumman 12-17-07, 04:55 PM	I respect him. I too would exchange D&D for a Mormon hottie. I think the fact she would not marry him unless he was either willing to lie about his beliefs for the rest of his life or somehow force himself to believe in the Mormon religion proves that this was a "run, don't walk" situation. To me, being asked to believe in a religion would be like being asked to believe 2+2=5: impossible, unless you just pretend.
key 12-17-07, 05:19 PM	To me, being asked to believe in a religion would be like being asked to believe 2+2=5: impossible, unless you just pretend. Yes, I personally would have to pretend. Just one more face to present to society (and to the Mrs. as well if she was expecting a true conversion). I feel sorry for those kids. They will not have a choice as to their upbringing. One stupid father, one stupid mother, stifled by an overtly zealous community of religious fanatics, all the while poor. I would have to play good cop as much as I could. They'd still have to do all the religious junk Mom told them, but I'd sit down with them (when Mom wasn't around), and remind them that the whole thing is faith-based, and ultimately they will have to decide for themselves what they believe to be true. Actually, if either one of them grows up to be a writer, they'll be rich thanks to a lifetime of oppressive background. Not like Stalin oppressive, but more like Fidel oppressive (Fidel being a dictator that could atleast feed his people). Again, I'd try to relieve some of the pressure they got from Mom or the Church. I'd remind them that one advantage Mormons have over atheists is that many every day activities which are ho-hum to atheists are sins according to Mormonism. Thus, when participating in said activity, it will be a bit more thrilling for them as they can think "Oh no, I'm sinning. I'm such a naughty Mormon." If they didn't work that angle, at least I would. :cool:
ToastedAmphibian 12-17-07, 05:42 PM	Official stance is yes. If nothing else, it's a temptation to sin, and willingly walking into temptation is a sin itself. Plus there's that by looking at pornography, you financially support it, which is immoral. Well, gluttony is a sin. Watching comercials for food tempts you to eat more than simple hunger alone would. Do you turn off the telivision when a grocery store comerical comes on? If not, do you pray for forgivness every night about your comercial viewing? Even if you do, by watching the telivision you increase that channels rating and help encourage more suppermarkets to advertise and attempt to draw people towards gluttony. Truley the only remidie would be to not own a TV at all, and refuse to patronize any place that has a TV present. If this is the case, then i whole-heartedly aplaud and respect you for upholding your belifes to such a high standard (Even if i dont agree with your belifes). If this isnt the case, then id have to say that your argument dosnt really hold up very well. That being said, i have never personally had a problem with christians about DND. I live in florida, so im not really sure if that has anything to do with it. More often religious people either shun me outright (Apparently i radiate hate waves or something.) Or get into a debate about blindly following without question (I have no problem with religion. I have a problem wiht ANYTHING im not allowed to question and examine) Both of these happen LONG before they find out that i play DND.
RadicalTaoist 12-17-07, 06:05 PM	Why do I have a grim feeling this thread is going to get locked? Or at least warning'd. I wonder...I've got a lot of devout Muslim friends. I'll have to ask if there's any position in Islam about this sort of thing. Somehow I doubt it.
Gedrin 12-17-07, 06:14 PM	I've always found that there is greater hostility toward my faith in the gaming community than there has been to my gaming in the faith community.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-17-07, 06:19 PM	I've always found that there is greater hostility toward my faith in the gaming community than there has been to my gaming in the faith community. I've never had it be a problem in either. Like, at all.
Eldritch_Lord 12-17-07, 06:25 PM	Actually, I've had almost completely positive experiences with religious folks regarding D&D. (One of the priests at my current church plays; there's a funny story about it in my sig.) I've been lucky enough to not have run into the "D&D=Satan" people who burn books and try to "save" you, though I have heard some "friend of a friend"-level stories about them from friends who moved to the Bible Belt in the southern US. RadicalTaoist, I'd like to hear Islam's position on the issue; it seems that whenever you hear about crazy radical religious people complaining about D&D, it's generally always Christians (usually American Christians) doing the complaining, so getting the opinion of another one of the Big 3 monotheistic religions would be interesting.
Gedrin 12-17-07, 06:26 PM	I've never had it be a problem in either. Like, at all.In my personal gaming, I've never had a problem with it either. The same for my church life. However, I do spend a lot of time online, and my experience is much different online.
TimelordSimone 12-17-07, 07:10 PM	(usually American Christians) Yeah, I've never even heard of it being a problem over here. (In England). I don't know what the official stance of my church is, but I'm guessing they don't care about d&d. (I'm methodist, and we're pretty liberal, so...)
Toran_A_Sunder 12-17-07, 07:25 PM	Sure you are. It's part of the human condition that we are all responsible on some level for the misdeeds of others. This is generally less explicit in western Chrisianity, but Easter Orthodox wears it on its sleeve, from what I understand. In any case, you can't become a saint without apologizing for all sins ever. Christianity, eastern orthodox, muslim, wiccan, to me it doesn't make a difference. I'm sorry, but no, I'm not in any way, shape or form responsible for what some ignorant fundamentalist (of any religion) living 5 states away does, says, or thinks. And he is not responsible for what I do, say, or think. I think this is my biggest gripe about people in America today, and it spreads into many, many avenues. And don't get me wrong I love my country. I wouldn't have served it if I didn't. But there is some sort of aversion (started, I believe, with the political corectness movement) to holding people accountable for their actions. You can't blame anyone for what they do, for fear of offending them. It's always *someone else's* fault. We would have fewer problems, IMO, if we stopped worrying about offending every last person, and started telling people "Uhm, no, its not so-and-so's fault that you did this or said that. You were perfectly cognizant of your actions at the time you committed it, so grow up and face the music."
Toran_A_Sunder 12-17-07, 07:27 PM	I never said anything about wrong doings, I mentioned "sin" because it is a word created by religion to mean something to religious people, and not being religious myself.... it means nothing to me. Now wrong-doing is something that is logical and not based on a religious stance, but of inherently (in most people anyway) moral code written into our DNA and taught from generation to generation. Ah. Ok. I follow now :D
khyron1144 12-17-07, 07:31 PM	The only way my spirituality affects my D&D is when a player wants to be a cleric of Athena or something. Sorry but I belive in Her, so lets have you play a cleric of a fictional god okay? ;) That way I'm not looking over my shoulder everytime the barbarian shouts "Hail Thor!" lol I am also a Pagan of a weird self-taught, very solitary, and syncretic sort. I don't think D&D led me to Paganism because I've been at least tangentially involved with D&D and other fantasy RPGs since about the time I was five and have only seriously thought of myself as definitely some sort of Pagan since the time I was about eighteen. Me, I use the historical pantheons from the 1e Deties & Demigods in my homebrew world because I believe in the Gods named therein. Basically, I figure one of the aspects of omniscience or at least a Gods's-eye-view of the world is to know the difference between a serious invocation and a play one. I also don't believe in the possiblity of a fictional deity. I believe belief shapes reality. Some nutter out there somewhere probably worships Dragonlance's Paladine, so Paladine exists, at least as far as the nutter's concerned. I also have had a few negative experiences with Christians regarding my gaming, usually because of my habit of always bringing reading material with me and it often being gaming books. Once at school when I brought in my copy of the Mage: the Ascension rulebook somebody asked what I was reading or to see the book, and I showed her the book and she flipped it open to a random page and then said: "So, you're a Satanist?" Another time involved my 1e Monster Manual II at a family reunion and a distant relative. The Devils, Demons, and Daemons section in the book probably didn't help my case. I think I create odd impressions on the public anyways. I use public transit frequently and because time on a bus is otherwise dead time, I usually bring a book. My most recently acquired book is Donald Tyson's Enochian Magic For Beginners, so I ahve been reading that on the bus. I think I've gotten a few meaningful glances from fellow passengers who spot the book, but nobody has said anything to me yet.
BlaineTog 12-17-07, 07:39 PM	Why do I have a grim feeling this thread is going to get locked? Or at least warning'd.Yeah. In the interests of preventing that, I'm going to refrain from posting, though believe me I'd like to.
Toran_A_Sunder 12-17-07, 07:58 PM	Yeah. In the interests of preventing that, I'm going to refrain from posting, though believe me I'd like to. Then post. I don't understand why we can't discuss an issue without it resorting to an argument. You said in your post that if one wanted to argue, to PM you. I don't want to argue. I want to discuss. hense the post and no PM
ToastedAmphibian 12-17-07, 08:11 PM	Why do I have a grim feeling this thread is going to get locked? Or at least warning'd. Seems likley I wonder...I've got a lot of devout Muslim friends. I'll have to ask if there's any position in Islam about this sort of thing. Somehow I doubt it. Please do, and let us know what they say (assuming you get a chance to ask them before the thread gets closed). Id like to know what they have to say. Yeah. In the interests of preventing that, I'm going to refrain from posting, though believe me I'd like Don't be shy!
Bolomang342 12-17-07, 08:56 PM	About the only really terrible thing I had happen to me what that I had brought over my D&D books to his younger uncle's parents house (keep in mind that he has a YOUNGER uncle, and that his parent are like 50), making this his grandparent's house, anyway, we were making my friend's first character, and his grandma came down and asked me to never bring the books back to her house. I never have, and she still looks at me with pity. MY uncle told me to try and only see it from a "number and not real" Point of view, but other than that, he supports me. well, thats my :twocents:
sigma999 12-17-07, 09:25 PM	As far as pagan deities being put into a game, given stats (so they can be slain by PCs....), I ask: why did they stop there? I'm still awaiting Jesus of Nazareth, Moses, Mohammed, Siddartha, and Mother Teresa stat blocks for 3.5e.
CryoSilver 12-17-07, 09:29 PM	Mother Theresa: Commoner 3 or 4, maxed ranks in Heal, neutral good.
ToastedAmphibian 12-17-07, 10:15 PM	As far as pagan deities being put into a game, given stats (so they can be slain by PCs....), I ask: why did they stop there? I'm still awaiting Jesus of Nazareth, Moses, Mohammed, Siddartha, and Mother Teresa stat blocks for 3.5e. You want the next thread down i think. Its title iw WWJB, and its in the D&D General forum. Currently on the front page.
SplendidTuesday 12-17-07, 10:30 PM	Troll-kids, that he technically cannot support without the help of her parents; the whole situation is sad really, and I feel sorry for those kids. They will not have a choice as to their upbringing. One stupid father, one stupid mother, stifled by an overtly zealous community of religious fanatics, all the while poor. Actually, if either one of them grows up to be a writer, they'll be rich thanks to a lifetime of oppressive background. Not like Stalin oppressive, but more like Fidel oppressive (Fidel being a dictator that could atleast feed his people). Hey, I resemble that comment! Seriously, I'm a Mormon myself and guess what? Surprise, surprise, I don't believe D&D is evil. Most of us don't. Again, like with all religions, only the crazies think it can actually feel "evil". Most of us go "eh" and ignore it. Also, with all the rules we have that for aethists would be okay to do? Like no drinking coffee and such? Well, honestly, we've seen a lot of people (as a whole) get practically addicted to coffee. Y'know, can't get up in the morning without it? Thats why we don't do it. Cause we've seen too many of those people. We don't want to be addicted to stuff. (Same thing applies to a bunch of our rules) Back on-topic, I haven't had any religous folk bother me for playing D&D, so I can't share any experiences. Even if I could, it wouldn't be enough for a level, methinks. Most of you guys/gals are too high! :P
CryoSilver 12-18-07, 02:33 AM	To everyone who has to put up with this kind of stupid intolerance you should say to your antagonizers: "You can come and see what the game is really like, if you want an informed opinion. But bring your own goat and sacrificial knife because we don't have enough to go around."
BlaineTog 12-18-07, 10:49 AM	Then post. I don't understand why we can't discuss an issue without it resorting to an argument. You said in your post that if one wanted to argue, to PM you. I don't want to argue. I want to discuss. hense the post and no PMWe would be discussing real-world religion, which is against the CoC. Hence, meh.
Dog_O_War 12-18-07, 12:54 PM	Hey, I resemble that comment! Seriously, I'm a Mormon myself and guess what? Surprise, surprise, I don't believe D&D is evil. Most of us don't. Again, like with all religions, only the crazies think it can actually feel "evil". Most of us go "eh" and ignore it. Also, with all the rules we have that for aethists would be okay to do? Like no drinking coffee and such? Well, honestly, we've seen a lot of people (as a whole) get practically addicted to coffee. Y'know, can't get up in the morning without it? Thats why we don't do it. Cause we've seen too many of those people. We don't want to be addicted to stuff. (Same thing applies to a bunch of our rules) Back on-topic, I haven't had any religous folk bother me for playing D&D, so I can't share any experiences. Even if I could, it wouldn't be enough for a level, methinks. Most of you guys/gals are too high! :P My story isn't so much about how religion is evil, but how one person has twisted a religion to better suit her shortcomings. I don't have anything against Mormons (well, besides being a killjoy at the bar), it was how this person used the religion to get her own way. Also, the guy (my friend) is kinda like a zombie now; he seems to lack any semblence of life he used to have. He does nice things for people, but I can't help feel that it's forced or mechanical. He actually opted out of visiting another childhood friend on his birthday for hanging around his 70 year old neighbor (which he'd only known for 6 months). Kinda the last straw for the one guy.
Belkar 12-18-07, 04:22 PM	Every belief system/religion/political group/nationality/hobbyist circle has it's crazies. Every. Single. One. For every crazy religious zealot who goes on a rampage about D&D or Dracula or Judas Priest, and burns books while screaming in tongues, there are hundreds of folk in the same walk of life who are shaking their heads at him and his perversion of their ideals. For every neo-fundamental-pagan-vegan-trancendentalist who snorts tofu through tie-dyed, unwashed t-shirts while wearing 37 half-pound medallions dedicated to twelve moon goddesses and several celtic/egyptian/nordic demi-gods, there are hundreds of normal folk who've educated themselves in another way of worship that meets their needs, and they're happy to keep it to themselves. For every diehard athiest who protests on campuses and takes the time to publicly belittle what they consider to be incorrect, sue religious organizations, and get Darwin tatoos, there are hundreds who believe what he does, but just shrug at the attention-hog and have the good sense and moral decency to keep their opinions to themselves. For every non-bathing Uber-LARPer who worships Corellon in live ceremonies twice a week and walks around the mall in a velvet cloak and aluminum full plate while decrying the evils of organized religion, there are hundreds of Gamers gathering in basements and public parks and church back rooms and comic stores to roll dice and have fun with their friends. Each of different beliefs, walks of life, and ideologies. Each having found common ground in a hobby that brings fun to their lives. D&D is something people care about. And anything someone cares about will be hated by some other group of poeple, somwhere. It's the human condition. So? Roll them dice and smile... and know the truth. That D&D unites more poeple than it drives apart. And this, my friends, is what makes it amazing.
Ariakus 12-18-07, 04:56 PM	We would be discussing real-world religion, which is against the CoC. Hence, meh. The conversation was going towards empowering pornography by free viewership, the religion part was "cleared" up in my opinion. It's not on Topic, but still within CoC (and they hate when you quote CoC btw). But onto topic, I agree with Belkar, it brings more together than it divides. I myself am very non-religious, but I play with a 99% christian group. Our religious (or lack thereof) beliefs have nothing to do with our game, we even played an evil group for a while and had no qualms. I've played with just about every social group from jocks, metal-heads, nerds, to every financial group form the poorest to fairly wealthy, and we all get along as if there were no differences or social boundaries. The only time I had a problem with a player is one who threw a temper tantrum because his 10th level sorcerer/rogue was killed by Lolth because he decided to attack her instead of running away...10th level is nowhere near high enough to fight a deity let alone by yourself. But he got mad and we haven't played since (and I wasn't the DM, I was just guilty by association.)
TimelordSimone 12-18-07, 07:25 PM	Every belief system/religion/political group/nationality/hobbyist circle has it's crazies. Every. Single. One. etc. :clap: Well said sir.
Revenant07 12-18-07, 09:39 PM	Hi, I'm a Christian that plays D&D. I once invited my mentor/pastor to play it. He didn't know what to make of it but when he played it he had fun and said it was a harmless game. Like you said, it is a small majority of conservative Christians that see D&D as evil. Unfortunately, the other majority see it as a game played by stereotypical pathetic geeks. I don't know if you're a Christian or whatever, but if you are and you want to distance yourself from Jesus' teachings just because you see some Christians act like this, please rethink your decision. Why are you letting them make you lose your faith? Don't base your faith on circumstances.
Nathreet 12-18-07, 09:53 PM	Take it from the Christians who have already posted: This kind of behavior in the church is the rule, not the exception. Why? Because this is what the churches teach. This is what the Christian books talk about. Ya, I know, there are plenty that don't care. But it isn't some small minority that forbids it. The Bible explicitly says that such things are perfectly fine because they aren't real. It even gives the example of eating meat sacrificed to pagan gods. It's perfectly fine, b/c those gods don't exist, but it also says to be discreet when you're around Christians who are sensitive about it. Or if you don't feel right about it yourself. You're supposed to refrain to keep them from feeling (falsely) guilty about it, not rub their noses in it. Even though there's technically nothing wrong with it at all, you act out of consideration for others. In fact this is the source of the oft misused verse "Therefore, whether you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." Modern churches are not about what the Bible says explicitly in an obvious manner. They are about digging deep into individual verses and extrapolating extreme interpretations from them (like the above verse). Most of these interpretations lead to a monstrous waste of time, a big religious show. The Bible is also clear (i.e., in simple, unambiguous short sentances) that religious "theatre actors" (hupocrates) are destined for the deepest part of hell for their fake substitute for a religion. Prostitutes, swindling businessmen, mass genocidal murderers, etc. OTOH still have a decent chance to turn around. And there are plenty of explicit examples of such. I'd bet that child molestors likewise have a chance to turn over a new leaf and still go to heaven. So... I haven't found a good church either. The Bible just says to meet together, eat, socialize, look out for eachother, etc. The sermons and music and frequent prayers must have been tacked on later. Any Christians want to hang out? DnD group, maybe? Oh yeah, for what it's worth I won't be offended when this thread gets locked. Go for it, man. But since the flaming hasn't started, it wouldn't hurt to wait.
Nimloh 12-18-07, 10:41 PM	The acceptance of DnD in various churches will be hit or miss. It all depends on the church. I'm a Christian myself and was introduced to DnD by other Christians. I've been fortunate not to have been exposed by those who have problems with DnD. But any "community" of people will over time, begin to homogenize to a degree. This is why there are can be lousy churches and outstanding ones. The way I see it is that we have been created with many faculties, and it is important to exercise all of them. This includes our imagination and creativity. DnD is a great vehicle for this.
Stardrake 12-18-07, 10:48 PM	Belkar--You talk good sense. Especially for a murderous, psychopathic halfling... :angelhide
Belkar 12-19-07, 01:14 AM	Belkar--You talk good sense. Especially for a murderous, psychopathic halfling... :angelhide I AM A SEXY, SHOELESS GOD OF SENSE!!!! (cookie for the reference...)
Terraneaux 12-19-07, 01:46 AM	Yes, I have had a bad experience with religious people related to rolepaying. I work in a gaming store, and had someone come in and explain, loudly and obnoxiously, that the DnD (and White Wolf) books we had were evil and were corrupting children. Luckily it didn't get to the point where we had to call the cops, but you get the idea. That said, I've had lots of positive roleplaying experiences with Christians, but it was rarely because they were christians. Then there was this guy i gamed with *named* Christian, but that's another story.
Darth_Nyquil 12-19-07, 04:36 AM	Well, not completely DnD, but the following happened to a buddy and me years ago: We were (and still are) into various RPG's and war-games. We both paint miniatures for Warhammer 40k/Fantasy. He is a fantastic painter and does a spectacular job on dragon minis. He had set up a few tables to sell some of his minis (including some of his very fine dragons) at a local mall that was having an arts and crafts fair. So I was standing there chatting with him while he painted some new figures (and selling some to any who wanted to buy) when this old woman (60 maybe 70 years) walks up, looks at the minis and various gaming paraphernalia he had set up. She stands there for a few minutes taking it all in, looks at us and asks, "Is this like that Dungeons and Dragons stuff?" We told her, yes it was kind of like that. She then proclaims in a venomous voice, "I don't care how pretty you paint them, they're still ugly to me!" :uh-huh: Now mind you, two things were immediately obvious to us about this old lady. 1) She was toting an Omega Book Store bag full of what I must presume was Christian literature. 2) She herself was painted with so much makeup I could have figured her for Tammy Faye Bakker. Without missing a beat I replied, "I could say the same about you." :rimshot: :pbbbtt: Suffice to say, she left in a outraged huff. My buddy was too busy trying to catch his breath from laughing to formulate a response. :rofl:
celestialkin 12-19-07, 07:46 AM	That said, I've had lots of positive roleplaying experiences with Christians, but it was rarely because they were christians. Then there was this guy i gamed with *named* Christian, but that's another story. :rofl: Well, I can top that. Until last February I was named Jesus. Yes...an atheist named Jesus. :rolleyes:
Gemstone 12-19-07, 11:17 AM	I actually have three christian friends who play DnD and neither of them has ever said anything against it as far as I know... There was a guy during school though, who asked me what kind of psycothic person I was to play such a game... I laughed so hard at his comment that he left...
key 12-19-07, 12:02 PM	Last week, this doctor made a house call and tried to diagnose me. He said "You have the AIDS." I was ROFL. After a while, he left and never came back.
ToastedAmphibian 12-19-07, 04:14 PM	Last week, this doctor made a house call and tried to diagnose me. He said "You have the AIDS." I was ROFL. After a while, he left and never came back. :thumbsup: NICE!
TimelordSimone 12-21-07, 11:47 AM	I AM A SEXY, SHOELESS GOD OF SENSE!!!! (cookie for the reference...) 'So, do you want to be the one to tell him that he probably won't get any XP from any of them?' 'Let's draw straws.' OoTS #439 - Seeing Orange :D
Belkar 12-21-07, 12:11 PM	'So, do you want to be the one to tell him that he probably won't get any XP from any of them?' 'Let's draw straws.' OoTS #439 - Seeing Orange :D Bravo, good sir. Bravo. Thou recieveth... a cookie... :cookie:
ThePancakeOfWonders 12-21-07, 04:38 PM	Which sounds more creepy?: Teenagers in a big tent, in the garden, in the middle of the night, with a lantern, wearing viking helmets, monks habits, buzzing on rainbow drops and red bull, listening to Conan The Barbarian music on a old CD player, playing D&D with He-Man and Conan Toys and shouting I CAST MAGIC MISSLE every ten seconds. OR Worshiping some magical, non-existent, extra dimensional being and actually believing it really exists? Besides this is all void because my Rabbi plays D&D. Well the Star Wars version anyway because he says lightsabers are ten times more awesome than normal swords. Personally I prefer hammers to swords or lightsabers. BIG HAMMERS THAT GO SMASHY SMASHY!!!1
ADHadh 12-22-07, 04:23 PM	(...) I don't know if you're a Christian or whatever, but if you are and you want to distance yourself from Jesus' teachings just because you see some Christians act like this, please rethink your decision. Why are you letting them make you lose your faith? Don't base your faith on circumstances. Well said. Christianity is great, only Christians are wrong. I know what I'm saying, I am one*. I think there was some hype about it in Poland when RPGs first appeared, but that might have been caused by the fact that up to this day most gamers are hardcore metals, with occult written all over their outfits (and manga is mostly a Goth thing; Believe it!). The classic Nerd is still quite a new thing. Mentioning pagan religions made me think of a great campaign setting, with Slavic gods on the one side and first missionaries in Mideastern Europe. Piorunie Jasny, that would be great! Oh and by the way, the topic is "Anyone else ever have a bad experience with religious people about your gaming?" not "Is porn a sin?" For Christians it is, it harms people by degrading them to animals and twisting their attitude towards sex, and looking at it makes the people making it make more, and that's immoral, let's leave it that way. Oh, and Google isn't free. You had to pay for the computer and the Internet access, or at least for the internet place, hadn't you? *Haven't I mentioned it earlier? I must have.
False-paradox-Truth 12-22-07, 07:23 PM	Never had any problems. In fact, most of the "hard line" Christian people that I've encountered are exceedingly polite.
Prof. Pacali 12-22-07, 08:21 PM	As far as pagan deities being put into a game, given stats (so they can be slain by PCs....), I ask: why did they stop there? I'm still awaiting Jesus of Nazareth, Moses, Mohammed, Siddartha, and Mother Teresa stat blocks for 3.5e. Moses has 3.0 stats, in the godawful "Testament" d20 sourcebook by the nice folks at Green Ronin. Never got updated to 3.5 no doubt due to poor sales. (I bought it as a lark for $2 from Paizo recently, and it is awful. The book can't decide whether it wants to be historically accurate, or follow a bad translation of the Torah SheBiKhtav. And the crunch is terrible.)
Novem 12-22-07, 08:22 PM	I'm sure in HS I had a discussion or two about the "evils" or D&D with some of our more fundamentalist students. But thankfully I've been fortunate enough to belong to liberal minded churches (espiscopal and unitarian churches mostly) where we've supported things like gay rights, a womans right to choose, etc. Plus coming from a home of 6 children where the oldest two played D&D, the third oldest has eccentricities out the wazzoo, and the youngest three (including me) just being plain weird :D we never had issues with our parents or anything baning us from D&D or the like because of the hand of Satan. As a christian (in a sense) I don't appologize for the acts of other, less socially cognizant christian groups. And I urge other christians to not appologize for them either. You're not at fault for the hatred and intolerance they spread. Neither, really, is christianity responsible, though some may disagree. Certain people are just intollerant to things they dont understand, i.e. D&D, homosexuals, abortion, etc. And they seek some sort of proof to suport their intolerance; in this case, is christianity. But if it werent their church and faith it would be something else. Let others be responsible for their own actions. And Ariakus, keep in mind that sin isn't just D&D or sexual liberation. Sin also encompasses murder, rape, adultery, deception, and other things. So while not believeing in sin may be a life free of religious psychobabbling terminology, that doesn't make it free of wrong doings. Yes to some people sin encompasses silly things like D&D or Harry Potter, but it's not always silly things. Not trying to start an argument or put words in your mouth, just saying ;) You win. Seriously. If every gamer had the self-confidence this poster clearly possesses, we'd be the most "in" thing in the decade.
meigin 12-22-07, 10:26 PM	Does the act of looking at pornographic art cause harm? Excluding the obvious consequences of sleep deprivation, is there evidence to suggest that watching horror movies causes harm to anyone? General Comment: As an easily flamable topic, I wish no to take offense, and note everyone is quite open minded thus far, what a refreshing place this can be. Looking at the comments above, in the whole porn and horror is no more harmful than anyting else in this world, albeit a speeding bus. Where issue arises is in the saturation of certain ideas upon mentally sussectable minds, such as children, the not too clever, or those with emotional imbalances. (if you remember the only people who have "topped" themselves connected to D&D were suffering from paranoid delusions due to emotional imbalances and drug/meds habbits - and therefore perhaps should have been given something a little more neutral to focus upon?) Back to saturation, if you take a child and teach him violence only - guess what happens when he's old enough to act without direction . . . . . . . . . . Any example will produce a similar result, there are plenty of studies that prove the importance of a stable well balanced environment producing favourable behavioural trends. As an adult, playing D&D and the subsequent (if any) by product of behaviour is a will / personality save with a modifier applied depending upon your background / upbringing.;) Personally, I started D&D at the age of twelve, came from a broken home, and shunned the "family regular" expectations - church, soccer, cricket ect, and went for (the shame) reading SF, playing D&D and training various MA. I don't break the lore, I finished school, completed a degree, ave a good job and a wife and children. I teach MA, and special kids classes with an emphasis on developing community support. One can only guess it's not the game that causes the issues - but rather the person and their personal stability and leaneancies. As to religious confrontation, I've met ignorance, and ignore it, after all it's their loss not mine. Personally I vernerate Buddhist principles in my personal belief system, walk my own path and share with those who express interest. P.S. In the spirit of the season Merry Christmas to everyone, just don't get me started on the origins and machinations of certain festivals . . he . . . he . . he.
Martin_the_Warrior 12-23-07, 04:10 AM	I am the vice president of Nerdfest '07 at my school. It is an official school-sponsored club. We play Magic: The Gathering, help others with homework, talk about LARPing, and of course, play Dnd. There is a big student-parent kind of resistance that is currently trying to get the school to not sponsor us, and they are citing the whole "Dungeons & Dragons is satanic" thing. The way that we deal with it (and the principal is doing this too) is - just ignore them. If they won't even listen to your arguments (which most don't), don't try to explain what Dnd is. Just let them be haters of Dnd, while you go out and have fun playing it. I, personally, am Christian, but I don't see the problem with Dnd. It's a GAME, for crying out loud. Do you read books? Dnd is the same. So, if the religious people can't accept you (and I have also been told that I will be prayed for) (one guy even offered to try to get the spirits out of me [lol as if]) then don't try. Just let them live their fantasy that we'll all go to hell because we like our imaginations.
Tetsubo 12-23-07, 11:18 AM	A question: Do religious folks that have an issue with D&D feel the same way about RPGs of other genres? Do SF RPGs annoy them as well?
kelvinaw273 12-23-07, 12:12 PM	:) Well I'm openly non-denominational pagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-paganism) Nope I do not worship Satan :) I honor the gods of Britian and Scotland from before Christ. I've got nothing against any other religion or Jesus or anything. But anyways, a few of Christians I've met seem to think D&D made me pagan or that pagaism made me play D&D. I did discover both at about the same time, but honestly I see no correlation between the two. See my sig. Seriously. The only way my spirituality affects my D&D is when a player wants to be a cleric of Athena or something. Sorry but I belive in Her, so lets have you play a cleric of a fictional god okay? ;) That way I'm not looking over my shoulder everytime the barbarian shouts "Hail Thor!" lol Any archetype can act as a conduit to the divine, according to wiccan theology (admittedly wicca is a subset of paganism/neo-paganism), so I don't bar any deities from my games (or if I did I would have to bar them all). They are in the game, not being seriously worshiped, although I do think that perpetuating their myths keeps them alive in the collective unconscious. I would happily bring in the Judao-Christian-Islamic religions into D&D, but I just know that would cause offense to some even though it would not be intended that way, so I don't. To be honest though I really dont know what sets one depiction of magic as good (Narnia?) and another as Bad (harry potter?) but it seems to me that any depiction of magic in a positive light in literature apparntly amounts to turning children into witches. If it did there would be a lot more of us about. Really. Neo-paganism is growing fast, but not THAT fast. other than that. this proplem seems to only exist in america Sadly, during the Satanic Panic of the early eighties it sneaked in over this side of the pond. You still get touches of it, now and again, but nothing really serious. Prophesy and Healing aren't magic, but miracles. The difference is that spells magic are attempts to force the universe to obey your will, whereas prayer and miracles are requests which are always supposed to have "but not my will but yours be done" attached as a postscript. LOL, you know, you pretty much summed up witchcraft with that postscript. After that it went all down-hill. We think he got caught in the honey-trap; and from there his own weakness lead him to be changed into a lifeless, jobless (there isn't much of a labor market in rural alberta), two-kids (cause condoms are a "sin"), trailer-park living, shell-of-a-man. Sad ... but from their point of view, his soul was saved, so it's was all worth it. Sometimes it seems that the object of large religious organizations is not enlightenment but control. Happily, there is an answer to the "If you love me you'll believe what I believe!" argument used (or at least implied) which is this: "Would you abandon your faith for me and take up my beliefs? If not, then by your own logic you don't love me. So though I do love you, there is no future in such a relationship because you do not love me, and so no point in converting to something I do not truly believe." I think I create odd impressions on the public anyways. I use public transit frequently and because time on a bus is otherwise dead time, I usually bring a book. My most recently acquired book is Donald Tyson's Enochian Magic For Beginners, so I ahve been reading that on the bus. I think I've gotten a few meaningful glances from fellow passengers who spot the book, but nobody has said anything to me yet. Take two tablets, call me in the morning. Every belief system/religion/political group/nationality/hobbyist circle has it's crazies. Every. Single. One. Hmm. I've yet to hear of a Buddhist Fundamentalist Suicide bomber but you never know ... Well that's my two coppers worth (hey, I give value for money!), so to you all: Merry Christmas / have a Cool Yule / Hail Mithras / {insert preferred seasonal greeting here}.
khyron1144 12-24-07, 03:30 PM	Take two tablets, call me in the morning. Hmm. I've yet to hear of a Buddhist Fundamentalist Suicide bomber but you never know ... Well that's my two coppers worth (hey, I give value for money!), so to you all: Merry Christmas / have a Cool Yule / Hail Mithras / {insert preferred seasonal greeting here}. Two tablets of what? One reason I started to look at the Eastern philosophy-type religions (Buddhism, Taoism, etc.) was that I was not aware of them having a history similar to Christianity's Crusades, Inquisition, Witch Hunts etc. I have since heard a few things. Basically all religions teach loving kindness and many have a history so blood-soaked that Atilla the Hun would blanch at hearing it. Last week, while working front counter at my crappy fast food job, a customer wished me a Merry Christmas. I replied: "Merry Christmas to you too! and a cool Yule, and a Triumphant Sol Invictus, and a super solstice, and a cool Kwanza." She just said: "Just say Happy Holiday!"
Silvanas84 12-24-07, 04:00 PM	Hi, I'm a Christian that plays D&D. I once invited my mentor/pastor to play it. He didn't know what to make of it but when he played it he had fun and said it was a harmless game. Like you said, it is a small majority of conservative Christians that see D&D as evil. Unfortunately, the other majority see it as a game played by stereotypical pathetic geeks. I don't know if you're a Christian or whatever, but if you are and you want to distance yourself from Jesus' teachings just because you see some Christians act like this, please rethink your decision. Why are you letting them make you lose your faith? Don't base your faith on circumstances. Wise words. If anyone thinks a game will make people become pagans or want to sacrifice people is just ridiculous, what next casting aspersions against people's intellect and/or morality based off of the books they read (I'd be in trouble in that case - The Prince & Dracula).
BarivusTheFearless 12-24-07, 04:09 PM	Those close-minded people better watch out, or we'll turn our magic on them. :P
WhiteHarness 12-24-07, 04:59 PM	Hmm. I've yet to hear of a Buddhist Fundamentalist Suicide bomber but you never know ... Read a bit on Japan's Ikko Ikki sect, and about the Tokugawa shogunate's forced temple membership, and then catch up on what Tibetan society was like under the rule of the Lamas. He's right; every religion has its crazies and fanatics. Even Buddhism. The only bad experiences I've ever had with religious people when it came to playing D&D were with wiccans--they always seem to want to lecture on why the PHB's druid is all wrong, and yammer about how "real" magic doesn't work like that, etc. :rolleyes:
CryoSilver 12-24-07, 05:01 PM	Bah! Tell those Wiccans that you know all about real magic, and your magic wand is in your pants. They'll leave you alone after that.
WhiteHarness 12-24-07, 06:25 PM	I don't mean to imply that I think all wiccans act thus; only that the ones I gamed with were strange...
Always-Late 12-24-07, 09:59 PM	Excluding the obvious consequences of sleep deprivation, is there evidence to suggest that watching horror movies causes harm to anyone? Watching hours and hours of disembowelings, chainsaw massacres, spurting blood, spilled intestines, beheadings, and gruesome torture will tend desensitize one to violence at the very least.
CryoSilver 12-24-07, 10:08 PM	And being desensitized is actually harmful in some demonstrable way how? "Jaded" and "desensitized" are just buzzwords the media watchdogs throw out to bash whatever they happen to dislike at the moment.
Always-Late 12-24-07, 10:25 PM	Okay. Put somebody in a real war zone. Will he or she be affected in any way? [[edit]] I agree, that horror movies and real war are hardly comparable. But desensitization does exist and is hardly a media creation. A better example: The American Army used to have (not sure if they still do) recruits taken to slaughterhouses so that they would get used to the sight and scent of blood. On a more morbid note, less scrupulous armies have kids watch executions so that they'll grow used to them.
Count Arioch the 28th 12-24-07, 10:35 PM	About the getting desensitixed thing: In short, as a normal person you're pretty horrified if people get torn in half in front of you and are nauseated by people getting eaten by worms. The idea of eating other people doesn't even enter into your day to day thoughts. But if you ran around the ghoul barrows for a while, living day to day on the leavings of your hosts and the corpses of the fallen - it would eventually seem normal to you. And at that point you wouldn't be a normal person anymore. You'd be a full-time monster hunter and possibly you'd be better at that job. But hanging out in the mall or chatting up the lady behind the postal desk you just wouldn't fit in. Your experiences, your expectations of the world are so at odds with normality that if authority figures really sit down and have an honest discussion with you they'll try to get you committed to an institution. Although I'd like to point out that I don't think seeing fake violence on TV has much effect, if at all. I've seen thousands of people shot and killed on TV and in movies, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't feel very bad about killing someone myself.
CryoSilver 12-24-07, 10:37 PM	[[edit]] I agree, that horror movies and real war are hardly comparable. But desensitization does exist and is hardly a media creation. A better example: The American Army used to have (not sure if they still do) recruits taken to slaughterhouses so that they would get used to the sight and scent of blood. On a more morbid note, less scrupulous armies have kids watch executions so that they'll grow used to them. My question still stands. How does "desensitization" actually HURT someone?
Talisman 12-24-07, 10:48 PM	I've had quite a few problems in that respect, but since I was a devout anti-christian (satanist at the time actually) I was used to arguing with religious people about far more serious matters than a game where I'm conjuring demons. You're the very first actual Satanist/gamer I've ever met or heard of... ...assuming you're telling the truth about the Satanist part -_-
JuniperTree 12-25-07, 03:38 AM	Bah! Tell those Wiccans that you know all about real magic, and your magic wand is in your pants. They'll leave you alone after that. *groans* :rolleyes: I don't mean to imply that I think all wiccans act thus; only that the ones I gamed with were strange... Every group has weird folk, some more than others. Strange is in the eye of the beholder anyhow. I grew up thinking saying grace before eatng was strange.
Always-Late 12-25-07, 04:04 AM	My question still stands. How does "desensitization" actually HURT someone? If feeling pain is your only criteria for hurt, then no. I suppose watching live executions or being encouraged to torture dogs (that for the sake of argument were going to be tortured anyway) wouldn't "HURT" me either, but then your definition of "HURT" is pretty narrow. Child soldiers are forced to watch executions so that they will be desensitized to death when it is time for them to carry out aforementioned executions. A series of questions: Do you deny that these procedures has any effect on the children? Do you concede that watching these executions contributes to desensitization? Do you believe that watching renditions or executions and murder of which the producers are doing their damnednest to make look real might have any of the same effects? There is room for discussion - TV is very different from real life - but desensitization is certainly not a "buzzword the media uses to scare people."
GoriceXII 12-25-07, 06:35 AM	I think what Cryosilver is saying is that it is a term that is tossed around by the media that doesn't necessarily mean what people think it means. It depends a LOT on who is watching it, how they come to understand what they're seeing, what other influences they have. It's an oversimlification to say that tv/movie violence desensitizes people. I would add that the Bible contains subject matter (we've all heard this before) that would probably get an NC-17 rating at the very least. The levite letting a mob gang rape his concubine all night while he shelters his guests comes to mind, as does his sectioning of her body to send it to each of the tribes the following day.
Scorpion14 12-25-07, 10:40 AM	If feeling pain is your only criteria for hurt, then no. I suppose watching live executions or being encouraged to torture dogs (that for the sake of argument were going to be tortured anyway) wouldn't "HURT" me either, but then your definition of "HURT" is pretty narrow. Child soldiers are forced to watch executions so that they will be desensitized to death when it is time for them to carry out aforementioned executions. A series of questions: Do you deny that these procedures has any effect on the children? Do you concede that watching these executions contributes to desensitization? Do you believe that watching renditions or executions and murder of which the producers are doing their damnednest to make look real might have any of the same effects? There is room for discussion - TV is very different from real life - but desensitization is certainly not a "buzzword the media uses to scare people." Im curious as to what you believe what level it is possible to "desensitize" someone with pictures on a screen that the person knows is fake. The only thing movies like that are going to desensitize you to are other movies with blood in them. Thats it. If it were like you said, the millitary would use Hostel or some other poorly written piece of crap to get soldiers ready to fight in war instead of months of psychological training.
tyrandor 12-26-07, 01:22 AM	A lot of the replies in this thread are making me shake my head in disbelief... but then again, I'm sure my view would do the same to them. Still, this little gems stood out, and I got to reply to it. Well, it's not real, but that's a bit like saying that looking at pornographic art is just fine because it's not real. If a game is being played that emphasizes the use of demonic summoning or the like to achieve your goals, then I'd have a big problem with that game. It's entirely about how the game is used, and using an argument like "Well, I'm not -really- killing children in an orphanage, it's only a game!" isn't a morally defensible one. So Anthony Hopkins is evil because he played Hannibal Lecter? I've played evil character before - ranging from the guy who made a bad decision and things got out of control to the totally evil bastard you wish you could kill and that made even me, the player, uncomfortable (For the record, my current character is good and quite fun to play) - and as a GM, I've described acts that are downright vile. And I'm not even talking about hyper violent demonic flavored games... Heck, odds are your average lawful good character would be in jail as a mass murderer in a more realistic setting before he'd hit level 5. Roleplaying is all about playing a role - it's about putting on a mask and pretending your someone or something else. It's about a character study of the imaginary and heck, something a pretty therapeutic tool (It sure as hell can allow to vent). If you're doing it by summoning 'demons' or killing babies or what not... then so be it. There's nothing wrong about not liking this kind of stuff and playing in a more 4-color or family friendly game. There's something about knowing your limit and knowing what you like. But to say that people that use roleplaying game to explore the varying degrees and shades of morality can bring 'evil' into the world through it is absurb. It's somewhat like saying it's not going to affect your teenager when you let him watch horror movies all night because it's not real. /facepalm. Or listen to that heavy metal music right? Or playing those videogames? Or watching porn? Or dear lord, playing a roleplaying game. I'm having a hard time believing this argument is being used on a role playing forum of all places! One of my best friends had a pretty intense 'gore hound' phase during his teenage years. He's now an accountant, married, and has a kid. All the above hobby mentioned up there, won't have any negative effect on a person (teenage or not) if said person is properly balanced. If you're a basket case, your lack of a grasps with reality is what makes you lose it... not your hobby.
CryoSilver 12-26-07, 04:39 AM	Child soldiers are forced to watch executions so that they will be desensitized to death when it is time for them to carry out aforementioned executions. A series of questions: Do you deny that these procedures has any effect on the children? Do you concede that watching these executions contributes to desensitization? Do you believe that watching renditions or executions and murder of which the producers are doing their damnednest to make look real might have any of the same effects? I agree that these things cause desensitization, but I don't think that BEING desensitized is a bad or negative thing. I don't think being jaded is harmful. The world is a nasty, unpleasant place, and desensitization is just being aware of that and accepting that humans are also nasty, unpleasant animals.
Belkar 12-26-07, 10:38 AM	Hmm. I've yet to hear of a Buddhist Fundamentalist Suicide bomber but you never know ... Read a bit on Japan's Ikko Ikki sect, and about the Tokugawa shogunate's forced temple membership, and then catch up on what Tibetan society was like under the rule of the Lamas. He's right; every religion has its crazies and fanatics. Even Buddhism. Well, let's just say that some groups/religions/governments/societies have more crazies than others... lol... :P But there have been Buddhist nutsos in the past, Ikko Ikki was what had come to my mind, but after your mention, I did some reading on the Tokugawa period, and it was crazy! Also, I'm not sure if you can classify Hinduism as Buddhism (though Buddhists arguably came from the same religous concept), but Indian and Pakistani buddhists have been slaughtering each other (and themselves and their various sects) for quite some time. [shrug]. As prevelant as other crazies? Of course not. But, nonetheless, still there. ;)
Dog_O_War 12-26-07, 10:57 AM	I agree that these things cause desensitization, but I don't think that BEING desensitized is a bad or negative thing. I don't think being jaded is harmful. The world is a nasty, unpleasant place, and desensitization is just being aware of that and accepting that humans are also nasty, unpleasant animals. It cheapens the value of life. That is how it is harmful. How does it do this? When you stop caring about what an exicution means to you, and thus to the society, a person could be killed in front of you and would bring about a lessened emotional response, which would mostly be fear or anger. When all we have left is fear and anger, society as a whole will die as there is no more love, caring, humility, or respect as these are all "attachment" emotions. Desensitizing destroys attachment. I really do not know how to explain it beyond this.
Zombie_Babies 12-26-07, 11:25 AM	Wow. This thread certainly has taken an interesting turn. I feel obligated to comment on the whole "gory movies and porn are evil" vibe that's cropped up. Watching porn and slasher flicks does not a psychotic rapist/murderer make. Desensitization to one stimulus does not cause a transition to darker areas. Example: I hunt. I have therefore killed animals. You could say I am desensitized to the deaths of animals. What's the next "step " then? People? Hardly. Hell, if my dog died I'd probably lose it for a week. Movie murders and actual real violence? Apples and oranges. Not to mention that the same sort of theories have been applied to the very game that this forum is about. I fail to understand how the type of thinking that we all are appallled at- D&D is evil even though it is just a game- can be used by D&D players against other valid forms of entertainment. **On topic: The only religion oriented experience I had wasn't too bad. We were still pretty young and continuing a session from the night before. It was an exceptionally brutal and graphic battle (we have since played far more "good" guys than evil campaigns). We answered a knock at the door and an attractive woman with an older compatriot simply walked right in- without asking. She proceeded to extol the virtues of whatever religion she was selling (maybe Jehovah?- can't recall- 15to 17 yrs ago, hehe) as an univited guest. Guess we really needed salvation or something. Well at any rate she didn't bash us for the D&D (of course we didn't tell her about the details of the battle, either) and left after an hour or so. The only bad thing was I felt a little immature for my character's behavior after she left. So no, not bad- just . . . strange . . .
Taren 12-26-07, 11:59 AM	It cheapens the value of life. That is how it is harmful. it doesn't cheapen the value of life. I don't care one way or the other, but that doesn't mean I'm going to kill somebody because he looked cross at me, I won't fight back anymore if someone presses me because I understand that other people around me value life in all their ignorance or otherwise. I also know that I don't, and if I raise my hand into violence I'm not angered, or scared, there is no "lessened" emotional response. its a simple matter of eye for an eye, he pushes me I push him, he hits me I hit him. the small difference is after I hit him, he's not going home to his family, and I am. so I refuse to do it. there's no emotion involved, it's a choice made out of logic and understanding. what you are saying is right that the "attachment" emotions (as you labelled them) are a key point in bonding with other strangers who have them, but not to people you know and spend time with regularly, it doesn't hamper your ability to function in society. Since I still function in society, and I still go to work, I still have a family. I am attached in that way to one person, albeit she needs me and looks to me for her protection, to care for her and to be everything for her. but not to anyone I meet. to me everyone else is the enemy
Dog_O_War 12-26-07, 12:15 PM	Wow. This thread certainly has taken an interesting turn. I feel obligated to comment on the whole "gory movies and porn are evil" vibe that's cropped up. Watching porn and slasher flicks does not a psychotic rapist/murderer make. Desensitization to one stimulus does not cause a transition to darker areas. Example: I hunt. I have therefore killed animals. You could say I am desensitized to the deaths of animals. What's the next "step " then? People? Hardly. Hell, if my dog died I'd probably lose it for a week. Movie murders and actual real violence? Apples and oranges. Not to mention that the same sort of theories have been applied to the very game that this forum is about. I fail to understand how the type of thinking that we all are appallled at- D&D is evil even though it is just a game- can be used by D&D players against other valid forms of entertainment. Ever seen two girls, one cup? First time you watch it, you'll probably be nauseated. Second time quiesy, third through 12th time sickened, but generally after that you could watch it without flinching. Now you go out to a live "show" watching people poop on each other. You'll be thinking, "this is hardly as bad as 2G1C" and not even flinch. The guy beside you on the other hand has never seen this sort of thing, nor 2G1C; he feels quiesy. Why? This is clearly not as bad as 2G1C, but he hasn't been exposed to it, so he has the same reactions to it as you did to the "worse" of the two. Same reaction, different tolerances. Afterwards he will be able to watch this "show" again without even flinching, but the guy next to him who hasn't seen it or 2G1C.... and so on.... and so on.... Desensitization works this way with movies as well; I've salavated at the sight of movie blood, the same I do when I see real blood (this is the bodies' natural response, it's not me being "creepy". You do the same thing when your stomach feels ill). While the movie blood may not have been real, it is made to emulate it to the point of where you mind makes it "real"; it involentarily responds. After watching hundreds of movie deaths, blood, guts, and gore, I can watch "real" killings without even flinching (you can find these now all over the internet. The guys with the nightvision and machinegun are particularily entertaining firing on iraqi soldiers, even at the guy hiding under the truck). It has no effect; life has been cheapened and I no longer view killing the same way as I did before seeing one (fake or other). Remember the "banquet" scene in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom? When I was younger I could never watch that part and be able to eat afterwards; it would kill my appetite every time. Then after about the 10th time I saw the movie, I could eat dry food. After the 20th, anything. This is desensitization, and it need not be real to occur (I can eat anything now, even infront of a freshly killed deer hanging in the garage as it no longer turns my stomach).
Dog_O_War 12-26-07, 12:24 PM	it doesn't cheapen the value of life. I don't care one way or the other, but that doesn't mean I'm going to kill somebody because he looked cross at me, I won't fight back anymore if someone presses me because I understand that other people around me value life in all their ignorance or otherwise. I also know that I don't, and if I raise my hand into violence I'm not angered, or scared, there is no "lessened" emotional response. its a simple matter of eye for an eye, he pushes me I push him, he hits me I hit him. the small difference is after I hit him, he's not going home to his family, and I am. so I refuse to do it. there's no emotion involved, it's a choice made out of logic and understanding. what you are saying is right that the "attachment" emotions (as you labelled them) are a key point in bonding with other strangers who have them, but not to people you know and spend time with regularly, it doesn't hamper your ability to function in society. Since I still function in society, and I still go to work, I still have a family. I am attached in that way to one person, albeit she needs me and looks to me for her protection, to care for her and to be everything for her. but not to anyone I meet. to me everyone else is the enemy Your desensitization is not very extreme; nor is your mind been warped by experience though. You're taking this out of context; YOU may not feel these things, but given enough trama and experience you could. An eye for an eye is desensitization, as a more sensitive person would not respond in this matter. You just don't know you've been desensitized; most people don't. There is a varying degree here; watching a horror film will not make you a mindless killer who feels nothing for his victims. But it is a step towards that path, how ever small the stride is.
Zombie_Babies 12-26-07, 01:10 PM	[QUOTE=Dog_O_War;14671400]snipQUOTE] I wasn't really arguing the desensitization point here, but . . . The major issue with all of these arguments is that I have self-control. I also have the ability to differentiate between reality and a movie. If I see a movie corpse I really don't think twice. If I saw a mutilated body on my way home from work, however, I'd be pretty upset. Once you equate movies and reality and put the same impetus on the happenings within each then you have an issue. If seeing the death of GI Schmoe has the same import as watching a stanger get shot outside of some club I'm at then I need HELP!! A movie is a movie is a movie. No one really dies (barring accidents, of course). No one's family mourns. No one has to go casket shopping or call their boss and tell him Johhny won't be in today, or ever. The problem isn't with the material in question. It is with the way we internalize it. If we allow movies, tv, music, books, whatever to tell us how to react to the material they portray in real life the issue is not with the media in question- it is with us.
CryoSilver 12-26-07, 01:37 PM	It cheapens the value of life. That is how it is harmful. How does it do this? When you stop caring about what an exicution means to you, and thus to the society, a person could be killed in front of you and would bring about a lessened emotional response, which would mostly be fear or anger. When all we have left is fear and anger, society as a whole will die as there is no more love, caring, humility, or respect as these are all "attachment" emotions. Desensitizing destroys attachment. I really do not know how to explain it beyond this. Then we will have to simply agree to disagree, since I believe that being desensitized helps people survive by helping reduce the emotional trauma of bad things happening.
Taren 12-26-07, 02:59 PM	Your desensitization is not very extreme; nor is your mind been warped by experience though. yeah it is and yeah I have, go to Something awful and check out the "ask me about being world weary" thread, and PM me if you have any other questions, so back to the point, which I forgot to put, on my previous post. my church felt the same way and refuse to accept that roleplaying helps me to acclimate to society (regular social interaction away from the world and inside a controlled environment). some of them have found me and told me they understand and don't agree with the church's Idea that its bad "just cuz." and the ones I roleplay with don't swear when I'm around know that I don't drink, and respect me and my decisions regardless of if they understand them, and I'm the reason they have a good tatste of christians, when they get a bad taste they ask me about it and know its not normal. they just found a zealot.
BlaineTog 12-26-07, 03:16 PM	After watching hundreds of movie deaths, blood, guts, and gore, I can watch "real" killings without even flinching (you can find these now all over the internet.I can't. 300, The Departed, The Matrix, those deaths mean nothing to me. But I remember watching a grainy black-and-white video of the last execution by guilotine on, I think, the History Channel. It was far away, from the roof of a building accross the way, but that video made me physically sick; it was all I could do to avoid throwing up. If you have a strong enough seperation in your mind between "real" and "imaginary," the densensitization you get by watching movies isn't going to be able to penetrate it.
Scorpion14 12-26-07, 05:52 PM	I can't. 300, The Departed, The Matrix, those deaths mean nothing to me. But I remember watching a grainy black-and-white video of the last execution by guilotine on, I think, the History Channel. It was far away, from the roof of a building accross the way, but that video made me physically sick; it was all I could do to avoid throwing up. If you have a strong enough seperation in your mind between "real" and "imaginary," the densensitization you get by watching movies isn't going to be able to penetrate it. Me too. I honestly dont know how people can actually be prepared to see real violence just by watchin phoney-baloney gore on things like Grindhouse or Cabin Fever or whatever. Hell, if its in a movie where its treated realistically, I cant even watch it. Like, I could watch Dawn of the Dead and Kill Bill or Creepshow tons of times and fell fine, but Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List make me really uncomfortable. For me, its entire worlds of difference when its the real thing.
Taren 12-26-07, 07:04 PM	For me, its entire worlds of difference when its the real thing. that's because it's a decided difference between real and fake you know that a movie is fake, you watch the behind the scenes, see the making of etc... you also see the artistic airbrushed tinted version of what is on the screen, it doesn't look real at all none of it does, and blood spatter is completely different in real life than it is on the movie set. christians in the protestant/baptist church just spit out what everyone else says, anyone who approaches you to try and get "the lost" to "see the light" always used the book "playing with fire." but when you start to close you mind you start to close your vision, you can't accept people are different, and that a single instance of someone being depressed and scared and sad, and feeling like he's all alone goes missed, but his mom walks by one night three years earlier and happens to hear the phrase, "no its okay dude we'll just Ressurect you as soon as we are done." gets blown way out of proportion and becomes the foundation for an argument that makes no sense. alot of faiths don't understand and ask to be shown, and make judgements for themselves. but mostly in the smalltown feel they just burn the witch.
Scorpion14 12-26-07, 07:23 PM	that's because it's a decided difference between real and fake you know that a movie is fake, you watch the behind the scenes, see the making of etc... you also see the artistic airbrushed tinted version of what is on the screen, it doesn't look real at all none of it does, and blood spatter is completely different in real life than it is on the movie set. christians in the protestant/baptist church just spit out what everyone else says, anyone who approaches you to try and get "the lost" to "see the light" always used the book "playing with fire." but when you start to close you mind you start to close your vision, you can't accept people are different, and that a single instance of someone being depressed and scared and sad, and feeling like he's all alone goes missed, but his mom walks by one night three years earlier and happens to hear the phrase, "no its okay dude we'll just Ressurect you as soon as we are done." gets blown way out of proportion and becomes the foundation for an argument that makes no sense. alot of faiths don't understand and ask to be shown, and make judgements for themselves. but mostly in the smalltown feel they just burn the witch. .....wha.... That was literally one sentence. One. I dont even know what youre saying.
Ariakus 12-27-07, 02:22 PM	Watching horror, violence, gore, etc on TV will by no means desensitize anyone. I love horror movies, always have. I went to Desert Storm and killed and saw people killed and I have to tell you, it's a very emotional moment when you see your first even after watching hours and hours of horror movies growing up and having desensitizing training in the military watching video after video of real people dying in very real ways. In person, those movies and training videos did little to warm me up to such horror. As far as desensitized being harmful, it can make you commit the horrid act upon another human being much more mundane and accessible and you are much more likely to harm someone else because it doesn't bother you.
Dog_O_War 12-27-07, 03:58 PM	Watching horror, violence, gore, etc on TV will by no means desensitize anyone. I love horror movies, always have. I went to Desert Storm and killed and saw people killed and I have to tell you, it's a very emotional moment when you see your first even after watching hours and hours of horror movies growing up and having desensitizing training in the military watching video after video of real people dying in very real ways. In person, those movies and training videos did little to warm me up to such horror. As far as desensitized being harmful, it can make you commit the horrid act upon another human being much more mundane and accessible and you are much more likely to harm someone else because it doesn't bother you. Maybe it's me then, because I have no problems or even a major emotional reaction to people who have died. I see one thing and think "this isn't as bad as this" and it sets the bar on my "what's bad-o-meter" just a little bit higher. I still cannot watch slow suicide, or any suicide video for that matter (with the exception of suicide bombers). But it isn't the death that actually bothers me, it is the fear of the pain and the weapon that does. Even then I've been slowly aclimating myself to pain nearly to the point that the actual thing doesn't bother me, but the thought is what "does the damage".
Mulkr 12-27-07, 04:52 PM	:twitch: I'm sinking back into lurk- mode before someone here figures out that if I take half the sentences that some of you are saying, and replace things like "porn", and "horror movies", with DnD that I'll have the exact argument which causes religious people to sometimes be mean to the gaming community and so caused this thread. I agree that porn is morally repugnant, IMO, but that doesn't make it a freggin' sin to look at porn! It won't cause someone to rape somebody or cause someone to cheat on there spouse! And a horror movie, even though i dislike them, will NOT make someone slice someones stomach open and hang them in the middle of the street with their own entrails! DnD won't make someone run out into the nearest cave, throw green paint on someone, and then slice their head of with a sword. All of you stop typing insanity! It's ridiculous to believe that a common activity will cause an otherwise normal person to become a rapist murderer summoning demons from the Abyss. Come on! i think that as respectable posters we can all agree that YES looking at porn and horror movies desensitizes you to porn and horror movies. Can we also agree it desensitizes you NOTHING ELSE! i would post more on this rant, but theirs an ant swarm in my basement and thats where the computer is so got to go.
Nimloh 12-27-07, 05:01 PM	I think we can take arguments about violence and culture too far, but I find it inconceivable that immersion in violence doesn't affect us. It's simply contradictory to facts of the human person. Whether we like it or not, our brains lay down neurological pathways when we have any kind of feelings, emotions, sensations, thoughts, or perform actions, etc. The more way engage in something, the more the pathway gets developed, and the easier it is to keep doing so. This does not guarantee that we will become ax murderers when we seek out violence in entertainment, but surely it does affect us. Fortunately, there's a lot in life that can mitigate against possible negative affects that one may develop through what we associate with.
Zombie_Babies 12-27-07, 05:05 PM	@ Mulkr The point you are making has been stated already by several of us . . . and ignored. That's just how these things go. People cherry-pick so that they don't have to argue a point they feel they may lose. Sad (very) but true. Most people posting have a very set idea and refuse to listen to any argument to the contrary (no matter how cogent, polite or persuasive it may be). It's just a fact o' teh internets. On topic. I completely agree that it is painfully absurd to equate make-believe violence with real world violence. It is also absurd to believe any "desensitization" caused by the made-up violence can be translated into reality. You can't come in here and say "Video games, porn, slasher flicks and rap music are turning our kids into psychos . . . but D&D is ok." That crap don't fly! It is an all or nothing attitude. You can't exclude one type of media from the group just because you play it. So, on the whole, I agree with you. However I do have one point of contention- there is not a damned thing wrong with porn. :D
Moonslayer 12-27-07, 06:08 PM	While I have heard from friends and fellow gamers about bad experiences such as these, my own have been fine. My wife has a strong Christian faith (she really dislikes the term 'Religious', as she says "You can be religious about anything: excercise, following a particular sport, etc. What I have is a relationship that means a great deal to me.") and a church she has attended for almost 18 years (longer than we have been married). I have been a regular there for most of our marriage and while not a member, do consider myself a believer (albiet one with many questions and a more liberal outlook than many). In truth most of the congregation probably has no idea that I am a long time gamer. It's not something that comes up in everyday conversation and I choose not to flaunt it. I have a feeling some of the older members with stiffer prejudices might look at me funny, but they are also folks who I like and respect, and those feelings are mutual. I decided from the get go that if the subject came up, either by virtue of someone bashing the hobby with poorly informed rhetoric or asking me something about it directly, I would not deny my choice of hobby. On the other hand I see no reason to beat anyone over the head with it, knowing that it may cause a strain in otherwise comfortable relationships. One couple that are very close friends with my wife (and now myself) are well aware that I am a gamer. He is one of the Elders of our church and she has been active in Children's Ministry for many years, and niether one has any issue with my hobby. It is just another part of who I am. A few others know by virute of being at our house and seeing my stuff laying around the place. None of them fuss about it either. Some folks are going to fuss anout it based solely on what they have heard or read, usually passed along 17th hand by the ill-informed. Be prepared to refute their presumptions with facts in a calm, reasoned manner. Many people can be shown they don't have the full story and some just don't care for any opnion but their own. I also want to agree with the previous poster who said not to let these sorts of folks and their issues interfere with your own spiritual growth and relationship with God.
Cuindless 12-27-07, 06:29 PM	Anyone else have similar experiences? I don't know why, but it still bugs me to this day. I don't mean to one up anyone on this board, but I had extremely bad experiences with Christian religious figures and D&D while growing up. I'm not one for personal stories, but since you asked: I went to a Christian private school wherein everything sinful and amoral was outright banned. So, of course, many of the people I went to school with smoked weed, drank, engaged in perversion and, of course, played Dungeons and Dragons. I was one of these last. When it was discovered that me and some other boys were playing D&D on school grounds we were warned once then expelled. In response, I was sent to a Christian boarding school in Utah which will remain unnamed for the sake of privacy. There, like a typical rebellious teen, I started up a game. When I was caught I was rebuked, sermonized to, tied to a chair and, eventually, beaten and expelled. I'm not looking for sympathy or apologies from any of the intelligent, tolerant Christians on these boards, but to this day I still have problems with the teachings of Christianity and the apparent hypocrisy of many religious leaders. But I do still play D&D.
NexusX 12-27-07, 08:02 PM	@ Mulkr trimmed for space: On topic. I completely agree that it is painfully absurd to equate make-believe violence with real world violence. It is also absurd to believe any "desensitization" caused by the made-up violence can be translated into reality. You can't come in here and say "Video games, porn, slasher flicks and rap music are turning our kids into psychos . . . but D&D is ok." That crap don't fly! It is an all or nothing attitude. You can't exclude one type of media from the group just because you play it. So, on the whole, I agree with you. However I do have one point of contention- there is not a damned thing wrong with porn. :D Wow ... I'm not sure how you rationalize that there's nothing wrong with porn. I can think of tons of things that scream out "avoid at all costs", standing against the molestation of under aged minors and the (and in some cases prosecuted) exploitation and enslavement of young girls and women (many of whom are alledgedly forced to have sex or are pressured) being just two of the many. As for picking and choosing between violence-related "entertainments", you're right - you shouldn't just pick the ones you aren't doing and call them harmful. As far as the desensitizing effect you seem to be discounting between fantasy and reality, I think it's pretty well documented that seeing violence and perversion of any sort does have an effect on a percentage of the viewers, however perhaps you were being more sweeping in your statements. If you mean something like, "No way a monster movie is going to compel me to act like a monster! or if I start playing Halo 3 and shooting up a bunch of aliens, I'm going to care less about life and start shooting up humans in my neighborhood or something" then I think I understand. The more unrealistic violence is, the harder it is to be affected by it (but I could be wrong and please clarify if you meant something different. I think the key to becoming desensitized (at least in part) is - how realistic is the violence or whatever - how closely can you identify with it? For example ... taking a sword and killing an ogre with it is harder to translate emotionally into real life (we don't tend to have/use swords or attack monsters) ... but if we watched a movie about a man who raped and killed a girl then shot up the people in a convenience store ... this hits closer to home - it's easier to identify with it, since we hear that kind of stuff on the news. The images and heart of the matter can get buried within us. I'm reminded of the 6year old boy who found some of his Dad's porn then afterwards found a neighbor girl of 4 and raped her. Yeah, something was really wrong in his head, but the porn did influence his actions. But this is all for another topic and pretty distasteful. My apologies for even commenting on it, but to say porn is fine, is just so wrong for all the obvious reasons. Porn also gives a false concept of relationships, roles and sex (it also tends to make you compare a lady in porn to your wife, which is just stupid, again for obvious reasons, but probably unconsciously overlooked.) Nuff on all that. About bad religious experiences ... I've never had one - at least nothing serious (yeah, someone said something unkind to me once or was a jerk) - I mean, they are human and prone to make mistakes like everyone else. Furthermore, people that claim to be Christians or whatever, are still growing, learning how to be godly, daily making a choice of obedience or rebellion - struggling, etc. I've never cared for being called religious, because I think everyone's religious - those who say they are athiests just as much as the rest of us (they're just practicing a different type of religion). But that's off topic. God is Not religion. I'm not saying churches are wrong (I'm a very devoted Christian - yeah, I play D&D), and I've gone to the same church for about 17 years, and I've met some jerks, etc. but mostly people who love God and are trying to be good people (their success is always completely linked to how much time they spend in prayer, studying the bible and "walking the walk" if you know what I mean). It's all about relationship and keeping your eyes on God. The only even slightly bad experiences I've ever had with religious people have been ones in which the person was not close to God. I don't blame God for a person's actions (including strapping someone to a chair and beating them like one poster said had been done to them.) Just because someone claims to be religious doesn't mean they are close to God or are following his will. I know I have lots of room for spiritual growth, and I make mistakes. I feel bad for those that have had bad experiences, but I also know that a lot of things are blamed on God that should be blamed on the person who actually did them. As for Violence, moderation is the key. If we spend too much time playing D&D, watching movies, porn, whatever it is, it's going to pull us down the wrong path - we won't be able to live the kind of lives we were meant to. If nothing else, we'll spend so much time doing that stuff that it'll lower our productivity. My guess is that the more violent an act is we witness (or the more extreme the temptations) the more it will sink in (and even worse, if you are one of the ones involved). But I'm no expert. I hope this makes sense - I'm sorry this post is long, and I'm afraid I have to jam and don't have time to proof this properly and articulate as carefully and thoughtfully as I'd like.
NexusX 12-27-07, 08:07 PM	Nimloh - well answered and thoughtful - and way shorter than mine! Good points.:) Zombie_Babies - As for cherry-picking answers ... I know that happens (and I've probably done it myself), and it's not as productive, but it probably also stems somewhat from people reading a post, seeing something that catches their eye, and then responding to it (like I did with the porn comment you made), and forgetting to address the other issues in a post (though I tried to address the other areas). We get side-tracked sometimes. I know my Mom was never that thrilled to know I play D&D, since the game is open-ended enough for you to simulate severe violence and mimic some real-life issues and also because she's read so many bad things about D&D. I've learned over the years that there's a lot of people out there bashing D&D who have never played it (I've been playing since '79). Yeah, I've found some things in D&D I don't care for, and as a DM, I try to keep the atmosphere from getting too off the deep end (My players, a wide mix of ages from 10 - 44, have never complained, though one cautioned me to handle an adventure delicately one time - it involved a guard interrogating an imprisoned female pc). I do tend to play good aligned characters, but don't force my players to (though most of them do anyway). My Mom is a Christian and while she'd probably rather I play some other game, she no longer mentions D&D in a negative way - I think she sees that I'm walking an upright Christian life (making mistakes just like other imperfect Christians, but I'm not going off the deep end). I've seen tracts and a book or two putting down D&D, and I've read some of them (they are usually, but not always written by a group I feel have credibility issues), and nearly always are riddled with errors about the game. That's just part of life. I don't have all the answers, but I'm pretty sure someone is probably using D&D in a harmful way, just as I'm sure it's likely that someone out there can see a violent movie and then feel like immitating it, though most would probably be unaffected by it. We all need self control. If someone is concerned that you are playing D&D, they may or may not be wrong in their concern, but chances are they do care about you, and that's not a bad thing!
Zombie_Babies 12-28-07, 10:13 AM	@NexusX: I appreciate the manner in which you chose to respond to my post and will attempt to reply in kind. About the porn is ok thing: Maybe a definition is needed. I should have stated legal and more "normal" stuff. I'm not talking about kids or violent acts of abuse against women. I understand that these do fall into this category but as it is something I would never even consider looking at I excluded it in my thoughts and therefore my post as well. As for the desensitizing issue, see my next point. About repeated exposure to porn ,graphic (and realistic) films and video games: I understand what you are trying to say but must repectfully disagree. The "realism" in question is still not actually real. There is only the sight/sound of the action. The sights and sounds are still facsimilies of the real act. There is no way to duplicate the sounds of someone in that much agony- or the sounds of a death rattle. There is no way to add the smell of blood or the tactile sensation of plunging a knife into a victim's torso. These are fairly graphic examples and the reason I used them is to demonsrate that even the written word cannot duplicate reality. A movie cannot make you kill. Porn cannot make you rape. It's the faulty wiring in your head or possibly the poor way in which you were brought up. We aren't talking about life experiences making it easier to repeat them. We are talking about a fictional portrayal somehow creating a reality. I do not believe it is possible. Here is an example: Think about the differences between watching a couple engage in intimate contact in a movie (porn, standard film, whatever). Then think about the first time you did something similar. Did the film version remotely capture how you felt? Did you strive to repeat what you saw on film or did reality have some other outcome? If you answer "yes" then there is an issue here I can't begin to fathom. (It should be noted I do not believe anyone reading this would answer yes). Another way of looking at this is that a defense of "The movie/porno made me do it!" will not get you out of a guilty verdict in a court of law. It may get you an insanity verdict but this is unlikely. We must be responsible for our own actions. We must be able to see that movies are movies whether or not they appear real. We need to monitor our children so they are not exposed to things they are too young to comprehend. We must not ask the government to do this for us by infringing upon others' freedoms. I do agree that too much of anything is bad. If all you watch is porn and voilent film then you have an issue- but not the material. If you blame porn for being addictive then you must blame cigarrettes. Removing responsiblilty from people is something I am strongly against. You smoke the cigs. They don't smoke you. You watch the porn/violence. It does not watch you. Addictive personality is an issue with the individual- not the material the individual is watching or using. Well, I hope that my response was clear and polite. I do not think that we will ever come to an agreement but feel free to rebut. It seems that I look more to the individual and you the whole. Blaming a "system" is, to me, a cop-out. It's a way to absolve the individual of any repsonsibility for their actions. We must also remember that rape and murder (even extremely grisly atrocities) were commited before radio, television and moving film. What was their excuse?
Silvanas84 12-28-07, 03:20 PM	And I'm not even talking about hyper violent demonic flavored games... Heck, odds are your average lawful good character would be in jail as a mass murderer in a more realistic setting before he'd hit level 5. Paladins as a whole would be considered vigilantes & would be all be jailed in today's society. Me too. I honestly dont know how people can actually be prepared to see real violence just by watchin phoney-baloney gore on things like Grindhouse or Cabin Fever or whatever. Hell, if its in a movie where its treated realistically, I cant even watch it. Like, I could watch Dawn of the Dead and Kill Bill or Creepshow tons of times and fell fine, but Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List make me really uncomfortable. For me, its entire worlds of difference when its the real thing. I agree, the more realistic violence is the scarier it is. Frankly combat like what you see in Serenity, 300 & Underworld comes off as too phony & is almost comical because you know that no one can do that stuff in RL (if nothing else the 300 Spartans would've been worn out pretty fast if they didn't have breaks in combat since they would have been wearing heavy armor).