Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 04-07-05, 04:50 PM	* I'm in a jungle, there is no civilization for miles and centuries. I want to scribe a scroll (or craft a bow, enchant some boots, etc). I have to pay gp to acquire the materials to do so. Do I just pour the gold on the ground? Is it impossible to find wood in a forest to craft a bow? What are these "special materials" needed to scribe a scroll? * I'm a craftsperson or a musician. I practice my trade for 20 years (or 200 if you're an elf) to perfect my craft. Then a 16 year old that gets lucky, kills a few orcs, "gains a level", and suddenly he is better at the trade I've been practicing for years. * The language "Common" is shared by all intelligent creatures in a campaign world. However, in our modern civilization with mass communication, global economy, and cultural mixing we are centuries away from a common tongue. Even in locations as small as europe, there can exist dozens of tongues. Culture is defined by language. Dwarven Barbarians can't read/write, but they speak the exact same language that humans on the other side of a continent speak. I was wondering if anyone out there has had problems such as this. Here's some ideas I had: Experience points should be renamed life-points, soul points, or karma points. You gain them by killing/defeating your enemies and draining their life essence, or through defeating them politically and making your opponents "lose face" (hehe, face points/cool points). This is a way to explain spending "experience" to empower magic items and spells. As it stands it is too abstract of an idea and it makes little sense. "I killed a dragon, now I can write that book I've been planning on writing. I saved the princess, here's that sword you ordered! Good thing those brigands attacked us, now I can brew this potion." RETARDED! Common language should be highly regional. For example: Eberron would have Brelish, Aundaira, Lhaza, Mrorian, Cyran, etc. If you were from a particular region, you'd have to choose the other regions as bonus languages, or spend skill points on them. Crafting skills and feats should have mechanics for generating materials, as opposed to simply purchasing them. Perhaps a Profession (Herbalist) check would be used to generate the special inks for scrolls, Profession (lumberjack) could be used to generate the wood needed for bows, etc. I thought perhaps use the same rules as generating income under the profession entry in PHB, but this is way too slow it seems to me. Also, in a world with non-linear time, this would allow a PC to simply state, "I gather the materials" for whatever item they wanted to craft. This method would have the benefit of making characters less treasure hungry and more self-supporting.
LukiLoki 04-07-05, 05:57 PM	Re: crafts/skills, It isn't explicitly treated in the rules (to my knowledge), but you figure there must be some (abstract) alternative mechanic to gain Experience for the common folk. Because the city demographics in the DMG call for ridiculously high level commoners and experts and such, and there's no way a 6th level expert ever killed a troll (or left the city, for that matter). But he can craft a mean longsword. Re: Common, You're completely free to do away with it, I'd say. It's more fluff than crunch. But the abstraction obviously facilitates game-play in campaigns that aren't heavy on the RP/Intrigue side of things. Imagine a party in a world with no Common tongue where none of the members shared a language. Doable, sure, but most people would rather get to the action and gloss over the communication issues. For myself, I've always wanted to run a linguistically realistic campaign, but, sadly, there just ain't time.
Syrus The Red 04-07-05, 06:03 PM	I agree that these "simplifications" do no justice to the realism of the experience, but the realism isn't a problem. As a DM you have found solutions to these dilemas on your own. I like your ideas and they provide some real verasimilatude to your campaign world, but I think I will stick with the rules as they are written. The main reason being that I don't question the realism of gaining levels through experience "points" and that killing monsters and using magic is purely fantasy and shouldn't be explained through and through. The fact that all of this is in our minds to begin with should leave room for the imagination to ponder. To create an artificial reality through statistics is one thing, to doubt them is another. The DM can always just say "that guy made a masterwork weapon" without that character having to prove he can statistically do it. Though, I will adapt your "common languages are different" idea to my campaign. I just have to figure out all the names know...
Morwen 04-07-05, 06:10 PM	* The language "Common" is shared by all intelligent creatures in a campaign world. However, in our modern civilization with mass communication, global economy, and cultural mixing we are centuries away from a common tongue. Even in locations as small as europe, there can exist dozens of tongues. Culture is defined by language. Dwarven Barbarians can't read/write, but they speak the exact same language that humans on the other side of a continent speak. Most people speak or at least partly understand English. Dwarves have their own language, but can also speak Common, which is similar to how, say, German people have their own language but also usually can speak English.
Mercurius 04-07-05, 06:11 PM	I don't have "Common" as a language option in my campaign. Each nation has a language, more or less, as well as the racial languages like elven and dwarven (with slightly more creative names, mind you) as well. Where your character comes from determines which languages you can start with proficiency in based on your INT modifier (though you can spend skill points to buy "speak language" without those limitations). What has it done for my campaign? For a while, only the bard (who'd actually maxed out her ranks in speak language, and therefore spoke almost every language on the continent) knew the language in the nation the party was travelling through. Everyone else was stuck relying on her to translate what the NPCs were saying. At one point, the halfling fighter and the cleric cohort didn't share a single language. That was fun. It doesn't come up too much, and players are typically smart enough to make sure they all know the same languages, but it does allow some diversity and realism, while at the same time making the number of languages known actually worth something.
Solaris 04-07-05, 06:15 PM	D&D's abstractions are nothing when compared to those of chess. At least in D&D a cleric can move forward, backward, and side-to-side in addition to his diagonal movement (which, although difficult, is still possible). Chess is way too unrealistic.
Mercurius 04-07-05, 06:15 PM	Most people speak or at least partly understand English. Dwarves have their own language, but can also speak Common, which is similar to how, say, German people have their own language but also usually can speak English. As someone who's traveled through Europe and Japan, and who grew up in Australia, I'd say that this is a fallacy. Certainly, there are people in those nations that speak English (or a close approximation), but there isn't an overwhelming majority. Store owners aren't going to be able to understand your order at the restaurant, and random people on the street will most likely fail to understand what you're saying. Heck, Australian English and American English are different on enough levels that it could be argued that one would need to roll an INT check to decipher what the other was saying (Not a high DC, mind you...)
Aliquid 04-07-05, 06:35 PM	I like how in some other systems, you need to spend multiple skill points to learn a new language. For example: 1 skill point - ability to ask for a bathroom, count to 10, "help", "thank you" etc. you can't form full sentences. 2 skill points - you can create full sentences on simple concepts, still with a limited vocabulary, and very poor grammar 3 skill points - you can carry on a full conversation with someone (with a bit of effort). There are a few words you don't know, your grammar needs work, and you have trouble with things like past tense, future tense... etc 4 skill points - You can speak the language fully, and your vocabulary is near complete. Your grammar is almost perfect. You still have an obvious accent. 5 skill points – You can speak the language fluently without any accent. You could pass off as a native speaker.
Mercurius 04-07-05, 06:41 PM	I like how in some other systems, you need to spend multiple skill points to learn a new language. For example: 1 skill point - ability to ask for a bathroom, count to 10, "help", "thank you" etc. you can't form full sentences. 2 skill points - you can create full sentences on simple concepts, still with a limited vocabulary, and very poor grammar 3 skill points - you can carry on a full conversation with someone (with a bit of effort). There are a few words you don't know, your grammar needs work, and you have trouble with things like past tense, future tense... etc 4 skill points - You can speak the language fully, and your vocabulary is near complete. Your grammar is almost perfect. You still have an obvious accent. 5 skill points – You can speak the language fluently without any accent. You could pass off as a native speaker. Sounds vaguely White Wolf-ish, but I can't be sure.
Arrowhen 04-07-05, 06:43 PM	* I'm in a jungle, there is no civilization for miles and centuries. I want to scribe a scroll (or craft a bow, enchant some boots, etc). I have to pay gp to acquire the materials to do so. Do I just pour the gold on the ground? Is it impossible to find wood in a forest to craft a bow? What are these "special materials" needed to scribe a scroll? The craft rules seem to assume that some source of purchasable raw materials exists. Special situations in which this is not the case call for DM judgement. * I'm a craftsperson or a musician. I practice my trade for 20 years (or 200 if you're an elf) to perfect my craft. Then a 16 year old that gets lucky, kills a few orcs, "gains a level", and suddenly he is better at the trade I've been practicing for years. D&D does not, and is not meant to, model all of reality. The rules model a specific subset of reality: that of people who face potentially life-threatening situations, overcome challenges, and grow more powerful by doing so. In short, adventurers. Musicians, craftspeople, scholars, reclusive wizards, sages, grand-master martial artists: all these people gain their powers through a different method: the DM makes them up. * The language "Common" is shared by all intelligent creatures in a campaign world. However, in our modern civilization with mass communication, global economy, and cultural mixing we are centuries away from a common tongue. Even in locations as small as europe, there can exist dozens of tongues. Culture is defined by language. Dwarven Barbarians can't read/write, but they speak the exact same language that humans on the other side of a continent speak. Because the D&D ruleset doesn't have a default setting (a dozen deity names and a couple out-of-print books do not constitute a "setting"), things like languages are necessarily more abstract in the rules than they might be in a particular campaign. It's easy to mentally replace "Common" with "whatever language everyone speaks in the area where the campaign starts." What the language is called or just how widespread it is is up to the DM to decide. Are you sensing a pattern here? All the "problems" you mentioned are areas of the game where it's more appropriate for the DM to make a decision than for the game to provide specific rules.
Dan Hemmens 04-07-05, 06:51 PM	At the risk of invoking the Ghost of Ron Edwards, what you're experiencing here can be thought of in terms of a clash between Gamism and Simulationism (more or less, the actual model is kinda complex, and not by any means perfect). Solaris drew a comparison with Chess, and (s)he isn't far off. D&D is essentially about killing monsters, getting XP and going up levels (I know a lot of people are going to argue with me about this, but really, that *is* what it's designed for). The rules are there to allow your rewards (in terms of XP, gold, and the all important Bragging Rights) to roughly match your risk (in terms of the risk of getting killed, petrified, folded, spindled or mutilated). If you want a game which is about People Who Live In A Fantasy World, And Have Exciting Things Happen To The Of The Sort That Might Happen In That Sort Of World rather than being about Adventurers Who Go Out And Fight Monsters And Find Treasure, Then Use The Treasure To Fight Bigger Monsters And Find Better Treasure, you want a completely different RPG. Patches to the D&D rules will only provide you with a dubious hybrid system.
EvilVegan 04-07-05, 07:39 PM	Most people speak or at least partly understand English. Dwarves have their own language, but can also speak Common, which is similar to how, say, German people have their own language but also usually can speak English. Most people? I think 2 billion chinese and 1 billion indians may disagree with you. Most people in AMERICA might speak english, but I can't think of a single time I've gone to a public place and not seen at least 1 person in the same area that couldn't speak english. And I live in East Tennessee. . . not exactly immigrant central. D&D's abstractions are nothing when compared to those of chess. At least in D&D a cleric can move forward, backward, and side-to-side in addition to his diagonal movement (which, although difficult, is still possible). Chess is way too unrealistic. Good point (both the literal one and the implied one of abstractions in games not mattering). In honor of that point in my next campaign clerics may only move at angles, paladins may only move in L shapes, commoners may only move 5 feet per round (10 on the first round of combat) and they only threaten the squares to the front left and right corners of themselves.
Morwen 04-07-05, 07:48 PM	Most people? I think 2 billion chinese and 1 billion indians may disagree with you. Having watched a few Indian movies, where dialogue is partly English, I'm not sure the Indians disagree. I'll grant you the Chinese though, and yes, it was an oversimplification on my part. However, I've been travelling to several places during my time, and nowhere have I not been able to make myself understood either through spoken or written English, be it England, Norway, Greece or Japan :)
Dan Hemmens 04-07-05, 07:57 PM	Having watched a few Indian movies, where dialogue is partly English, I'm not sure the Indians disagree. I'll grant you the Chinese though, and yes, it was an oversimplification on my part. However, I've been travelling to several places during my time, and nowhere have I not been able to make myself understood either through spoken or written English, be it England, Norway, Greece or Japan :) Depends where you go. At the risk of sounding *horribly* pretentious, if you keep to the touristy areas, then you're likely to run into people who speak English, if you go further afield, it is far less likely. Besides, D&D Common is *very* different to real world English. It is true that English *is* something of a lingua franca, insofar as most people who speak more than one language are likely to have a smattering of it. This can largely be explained as a result of English speaking people having essentially ruled the world for the best part of 200 years. Time was it was French, and of course long ago it would have been Latin, for similar reasons. However that isn't the same as D&D Common, which *literally* everybody is assumed to speak as their first language.
Lina_Inverse 04-07-05, 11:37 PM	* I'm in a jungle, there is no civilization for miles and centuries. I want to scribe a scroll (or craft a bow, enchant some boots, etc). I have to pay gp to acquire the materials to do so. Do I just pour the gold on the ground? Is it impossible to find wood in a forest to craft a bow? What are these "special materials" needed to scribe a scroll? unless you spent the gold ahead of time,and are crafting on the road.id say NO. * I'm a craftsperson or a musician. I practice my trade for 20 years (or 200 if you're an elf) to perfect my craft. Then a 16 year old that gets lucky, kills a few orcs, "gains a level", and suddenly he is better at the trade I've been practicing for years. you get exp for challenges in D&D.if your musician is never testing his limits he will never improve.however if invited to the kings ball to perform,thats a challenge to him. * The language "Common" is shared by all intelligent creatures in a campaign world. However, in our modern civilization with mass communication, global economy, and cultural mixing we are centuries away from a common tongue. Even in locations as small as europe, there can exist dozens of tongues. Culture is defined by language. Dwarven Barbarians can't read/write, but they speak the exact same language that humans on the other side of a continent speak. of course when gods walk the world and can bluntly make there desires known.getting a world language doesnt seem out of the question. Crafting skills and feats should have mechanics for generating materials, as opposed to simply purchasing them. Perhaps a Profession (Herbalist) check would be used to generate the special inks for scrolls, Profession (lumberjack) could be used to generate the wood needed for bows, etc. I thought perhaps use the same rules as generating income under the profession entry in PHB, but this is way too slow it seems to me. Also, in a world with non-linear time, this would allow a PC to simply state, "I gather the materials" for whatever item they wanted to craft. This method would have the benefit of making characters less treasure hungry and more self-supporting. this you shouldnt do.afterall D&Ds biggest assumption is the gp amounts.giveing free gp to the casters is bad.there already the best classes,giveing them infinite gold is a idea stuipid beyond belief.
EvilVegan 04-08-05, 12:22 AM	unless you spent the gold ahead of time,and are crafting on the road.id say NO. wizard in jungle campaign. No cities. Where would one spend gold "beforehand?" Is a wizard not supposed to craft items in jungle? Who is to say that gold is even useful, unless it is actually melted down to form the items. No staffs in a place full of wood? I'd say WHA? you get exp for challenges in D&D.if your musician is never testing his limits he will never improve.however if invited to the kings ball to perform,thats a challenge to him. Yep. Doesn't change the abstract manner experience is gained and spent. Try to comprehend the meaning behind the words. It was merely an example to get everyone "near the same page." of course when gods walk the world and can bluntly make there desires known.getting a world language doesnt seem out of the question. Irrelevant. Nothing is "out of the question", its a fantasy game. I was just saying that as an abstract simplification of language it was overly simple, since language is one of the most complex and culturally significant factors in a person's life. this you shouldnt do.afterall D&Ds biggest assumption is the gp amounts.giveing free gp to the casters is bad.there already the best classes,giveing them infinite gold is a idea stuipid beyond belief. Thanks for the completely non-constructive criticism. And it is "Giving", "They're", "giving", and ". . .an idea stupid. . ." It was a suggestion, it isn't stupid - it was an attempt at less abstraction with more realism. If you think that logic and reason are stupid, more power to you. I won't be responding to you again.
Lord Gwydion 04-08-05, 01:35 AM	To address EvilVegan's original points first-- 1. Where does a Wizard in the middle of a jungle with no civilization for thousands of miles get gold pieces anyway? If you're going for more realism... I don't see why the Ranger couldn't make his own bow, however, since the materials are at hand. If the Wizard can find suitable materials (scrolls written on palm leaves, using Yuan-ti blood for ink or something similar) she can scribe a scroll. What to do about the GP cost? Well, maybe they barter with someone else who has the items they need. Maybe the cost represents costs associated with aquiring the raw materials, rather than buying the materials themselves (Ranger has to buy food and tools touse while foraging good bow-wood, Wizard has to trade his jaguar pelt collection for the right kind of stick to use as a wand, etc.). 2. Child prodigies exist. Some people are better than others no matter how much or little they practice at any certain thing. Also, within the scope of D&D, the player characters are supposed to be better at everything than common NPCs. They're the heroes after all. 3. As others have mentioned, the "common" tongue is just a way to facilitate gameplay. DMs that make their own campaign worlds are free to do away with it, or use it selectively. For example, during the days of the Roman Empire, not everyone in the empire spoke Latin, but many would have been at least familiar with some simple phrases. The more priveleged or educated, the more likely they would be to actually speak the language. Again, the player characters are supposed to be above average (even if they are socially, economically, or in any way inferior to the average citizen of their nation, they're still the heroes of the story). The PCs can be assumed to all speak the "common tongue" even if most people in society at large don't (which is a decision for individual DMs to make, not the people writing the rulebooks). In the end, I think all of these points are issues that individual DMs should make for their campaign, because they are places where realism is glossed over in an effort to make the game easier for everyone. DM common sense should be used to decide when realism should rear it's ugly head and not allow things like "buying" materials in a wilderness. If the DM doesn't want to go through the headache of having the jungle Wizard roleplay bartering for item materials instead of getting on with the adventure, the DM just uses the rules as they are. If the DM wants to emphasize the storytelling and make the world seem more real, and the adventure can come later, they are free to not allow the Wizard's player to just erase the gp from his character sheet.
tender branson 04-08-05, 03:06 AM	D&D's abstractions are nothing when compared to those of chess. At least in D&D a cleric can move forward, backward, and side-to-side in addition to his diagonal movement (which, although difficult, is still possible). Chess is way too unrealistic. absolutely. and what happens to a piece once it is taken? is it sequestered under some type of invisible wall, able to watch the game unfold but not participate? what's to stop that piece from simply moving in its odd way back to the table? we need clarifications!
the_one_true_shea 04-08-05, 07:16 PM	A. Never had common in my settings. Sense Motive DC is the best way to cover translation issues, tested. B. Always, in every game I have ever played (my setting or not) GP values for craft and etc. has been taken as a literal abstraction. A value representation of the cost of the material that must be used. Refer to the Trade goods table and use a little bit of DM perogative and you can easily determine the "GP Value" of the wood you need to "use up" in the process of crafting a staff. Ask yourself: how much is this wood worth? Its easy trust me, tested alot... more with metal and stone though... As far scrolls and etc, that stuff is, I have always just assumed, created wth craft alchemy. Me and a good GM buddy have joked that magic ink must have powderd gold in it. C. Commoners and XP ... rough, but trying to hammer that abstraction out I came to this conclusion so.. eh - Social CRs. Find the party, get the password, impress the princess, and other things. Its hard to calculate that stuff, and I have not had very much practice (none of the players want to deal with it, despite the fact that it means more XP <shrug> ) but the idea, I think, would be to relate them to the adventure at hand. And only use them when you are actually making the caracter roll more than once. No Gather Info check = 500XP or anything... though disable device does that kinda... anyway. since I agree with you wholeheartedly I ask a small favor, I think that the HP system is the largest abstraction in the entire system, particularly for a game that is, as Dan Hemmens said, about combat simulation. In the books that I read the characters have stuff like gimped legs, debilitating wounds, and blood in their eyes. Noone of this exists in D&D, not with any of the alt damage systems either. Im not talking about hit location charts, Im talking about a progressive breakdown of the bodies ability to function. I literally took an EMT class to get a better Idea of how this works, but I cant seem to find anyone willing to talk about the topic (IRL - my players just trust me to do right by them they never want to actually make any rules) on the boards. Ive pretty much put the project on the burner for some other things but you sound like you appreciate a little bit of verisimilatude EvilVegan, hey thats the name of one my homebrew races! Thief! :D
P33KAJ3W 04-08-05, 07:31 PM	* I'm in a jungle, there is no civilization for miles and centuries. I want to scribe a scroll (or craft a bow, enchant some boots, etc). I have to pay gp to acquire the materials to do so. Do I just pour the gold on the ground? Is it impossible to find wood in a forest to craft a bow? What are these "special materials" needed to scribe a scroll? DM to player: I see your point but a scroll is not just a piece of paper. Its very fabric was cultivated to hold the arcane secrets you wish to scribe. However if you wish to pay 5xp, 1/5th the gold, I will allow you to infuse it with your spirit so that you may scribe on the wood you gathered. * I'm a craftsperson or a musician. I practice my trade for 20 years (or 200 if you're an elf) to perfect my craft. Then a 16 year old that gets lucky, kills a few orcs, "gains a level", and suddenly he is better at the trade I've been practicing for years. DM to player: Thats odd because I had you down as a 15th leve adept with maxed ranks in preform. He must have rolled really well! * The language "Common" is shared by all intelligent creatures in a campaign world. However, in our modern civilization with mass communication, global economy, and cultural mixing we are centuries away from a common tongue. Even in locations as small as europe, there can exist dozens of tongues. Culture is defined by language. Dwarven Barbarians can't read/write, but they speak the exact same language that humans on the other side of a continent speak. DM to player: D&D is simplyed in that aspect. If you wish to undue that we can but it would cause play to slow down. Lets discuss it as a group and deside.
Dan Hemmens 04-09-05, 08:30 AM	DM to player: Thats odd because I had you down as a 15th leve adept with maxed ranks in preform. He must have rolled really well! In which case we get the *other* problem. "Oh my God! Harold Pinter is after me!" "Dude, chill out, he's only a playwright." "Yeah, but he's a really *good* playwright - think about it - +10 Base Attack Bonus! 60 Hitpoints! And I'm only third level!"
Sarella Starshine 04-09-05, 09:14 AM	* I'm in a jungle, there is no civilization for miles and centuries. I want to scribe a scroll (or craft a bow, enchant some boots, etc). I have to pay gp to acquire the materials to do so. Do I just pour the gold on the ground? Is it impossible to find wood in a forest to craft a bow? What are these "special materials" needed to scribe a scroll? the gold does not have to be spent the instant the person makes the item. if i was a wizard, i would definately spend some money before hand to stock up on supplies to make things like scrolls, and the same if i was any other class and might need to craft something out in the boonies, though the chances of anyone besides the wizard (and maybe a cleric making potions), wanting to craft something in the wilderness miles away from civilization is very very small, hince the vagueness. it is assumed that you 'pre-paid' the costs of materials before you acctually used them. * I'm a craftsperson or a musician. I practice my trade for 20 years (or 200 if you're an elf) to perfect my craft. Then a 16 year old that gets lucky, kills a few orcs, "gains a level", and suddenly he is better at the trade I've been practicing for years. just because you practiced for a long time, does not mean your good at it. for all we know, you can be nothing but a sub-par performer/craftperson that barely makes enough money to live. * The language "Common" is shared by all intelligent creatures in a campaign world. However, in our modern civilization with mass communication, global economy, and cultural mixing we are centuries away from a common tongue. Even in locations as small as europe, there can exist dozens of tongues. Culture is defined by language. Dwarven Barbarians can't read/write, but they speak the exact same language that humans on the other side of a continent speak. this is nothing more than a mechanic that lets players interact with other players and NPCs and not have to worry about missunderstandings, corrupt translators with thier own agendas (though that would be a good plot there), or the other of good stuff (sarcastic) things that can happen when 2 people speaking 2 different languages meet. common has been 'defined-ish' as a smattering of all the 'common' spoken languages (dwarven, gnome, elven, human, etc) in the D&D setting.the D&D world can have been around long enough to cause a language meld within the human population, which is another valid interpetation of a simple mechanic letting the players having the freedom to be what they want to be without having to worry about something like communicating with other players or NPCs. nothing is preventing you from NOT taking it either (elitest snob elves might distain any language besides elven and sylvan).
UZI 04-09-05, 12:28 PM	English is the 3rd most spoken primary language in the world, and is the most widely learned language among those learning a second language. When you total 1st and 2nd language speakers (or learners) of English, it contends for 1st place against Mandarin Chinese. In any case, when you travel widely you are more commonly going to encounter an English speaking individual than a Chinese speaking individual.
11d7 04-09-05, 01:52 PM	In which case we get the *other* problem. "Oh my God! Harold Pinter is after me!" "Dude, chill out, he's only a playwright." "Yeah, but he's a really *good* playwright - think about it - +10 Base Attack Bonus! 60 Hitpoints! And I'm only third level!" This the the #1 thing I hate about D&D. You have to be very powerful to be good at anything.
Yak of Darkness 04-09-05, 03:14 PM	Maybe I've missed it, but has anyone mentioned the Skill Focus feat, or the various +2/+2 skill boost feats? Someone who's dedicated their life to a craft/skill/trade/art probably has these in his repetoire. A PC who's dedicated his life to fighting monsters for treasure probably doesn't. So your Expert artisans have maxxed out Craft, their highest score in Int, and feats dedicated to further boosting that Craft score. Performers have the same, with the Perform skill and Cha being the tools of their trade (in a metagamey sense). So even a few levels below the PCs (more, if the PCs aren't putting points in the relevant skills every level), your NPCs will out craft, sing, dance, and write them (unless they're bards, but I think we can all agree that that's a special case). Hell, the only way that a non-skill-focus PC can keep up with a skill-focus-and-+2 NPC of their level, or exceed one of a lower level, is by using magic items to boost their relevant ability score/skill check, and even that somewhat goes away the higher level you get, as skill points further eclipse any other bonuses. I'm not saying some of the D&D abstractions aren't unrealistic, but this specific case isn't a problem when you use all of the rules at your disposal.
EvilVegan 04-09-05, 05:28 PM	I'm not saying some of the D&D abstractions aren't unrealistic, but this specific case isn't a problem when you use all of the rules at your disposal. Actually I had those in mind when I wrote the intial post, didn't really mention them because if you took skill focus twice and one of the +2 skills you would be REALLY good at 2 things. But of course after a while a PC will be better than you regardless of how many years you practice unless you go out and kill stuff to gain levels. I'm not saying an NPC will always be worse, I'm not saying PCs shouldn't be better, all I'm saying is that the level based caps on skill ranks are rather silly. A PC who never crafts anything (ever), but puts ranks in it every level, and does nothing but hang out in a dungeon fighting zombies and badgers and larches gets better and better at crafting.
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-09-05, 06:18 PM	heya, I've come across minor problems with these issues myself, so I wanna give some advice by telling you how I dealt with them. Keep in mind that this is only advice and I'm not saying that this is how it's done, only how I would or I actually do go about "fixing" these problems. * I'm in a jungle, there is no civilization for miles and centuries. I want to scribe a scroll (or craft a bow, enchant some boots, etc). I have to pay gp to acquire the materials to do so. Do I just pour the gold on the ground? Is it impossible to find wood in a forest to craft a bow? What are these "special materials" needed to scribe a scroll? actually, in a game I was a player under for some time, a friend told me that (when comparing 3rd with 2nd edition rules) that those costs for magic item creation was just to hire people to retrieve the actual materials or buy the materials from within the city itself. (I think he was implying that in 2nd edition, it actually had rules and specific items that could be aquired to make said magic items, for example, a ioun stones were just special stones you'd find in the elemental earth plane) So a wizard wouldn't have to buy the materials if he already had them. For example, a weaponsmith would normally have to pay money to buy steel to make his steel weapons from a supplier from within his home city, but a hermit who, say, finds some discarded, rusted weapons would melt down the weapons and make shiny new weapons at little or no cost, since he already has the steel (assuming he has all the other tools necessary, such as a forge.) The same thing would apply to a wizard and a scroll or a wizard and an ioun stone or any other magic item. * I'm a craftsperson or a musician. I practice my trade for 20 years (or 200 if you're an elf) to perfect my craft. Then a 16 year old that gets lucky, kills a few orcs, "gains a level", and suddenly he is better at the trade I've been practicing for years. If the 200 year old elf has less experience points than the 16 year old, then the 16 old could only have logically spent more time perfecting this craft than the elf, otherwise the elf would have more experience points. (i.e. would be a higher level expert.) This is less of a concept problem with the D&D realism than people's perception of said system, assuming that a highly trained craftsman is a level one NPC class character. This would be akin to calling a level one wizard an archmage. This is also a problem with the concept that make people think that elves are just humans with pointy ears. They're not. They don't go about their way of life at all like humans. A 200 year elf probably spent as much time completing one thing as a human would complete in 20 years. They simply don't see a reason to be in such a hurry. * The language "Common" is shared by all intelligent creatures in a campaign world. However, in our modern civilization with mass communication, global economy, and cultural mixing we are centuries away from a common tongue. Even in locations as small as europe, there can exist dozens of tongues. Culture is defined by language. Dwarven Barbarians can't read/write, but they speak the exact same language that humans on the other side of a continent speak. This I had (at least I believe) an interesting solution to. Basically, I kept Common, but in a similar capacity as English in non-primary english speaking countries - mostly as a trade language. This would translate in D&D as to meaning that only adventurers, travellers, and some businessmen actually know common automatically. But generally eveyone else only has Common as a bonus language. I particularly like this solution because it means that I don't have to screw the PCs out of a fairly common language but I still have some major language barriers present to be an obstacle, even with fairly close neighbors. (The game I'm currently running is in the Forgotten Realms in the Silver Marches, right now, all the PCs hail from Everlund, so even going to Silverymoon would present a language barrier between, say, the humans (who know chondathon, but not illuskan) and elves (who know illuskan, but not chondathon) but only certain people, who have to - due to their profession, actually know and fluently speak common.) This way, the PCs can't speak to everyone through common and it actually gives more realism, I think, and it makes common a more realistic language. I was wondering if anyone out there has had problems such as this. Here's some ideas I had: Experience points should be renamed life-points, soul points, or karma points. You gain them by killing/defeating your enemies and draining their life essence, or through defeating them politically and making your opponents "lose face" (hehe, face points/cool points). This is a way to explain spending "experience" to empower magic items and spells. As it stands it is too abstract of an idea and it makes little sense. "I killed a dragon, now I can write that book I've been planning on writing. I saved the princess, here's that sword you ordered! Good thing those brigands attacked us, now I can brew this potion." RETARDED! I don't like this. My solution would be just to grant less experience points for just killing enemies and grant it for a greater variety of accomplishments. This is essentially what I do with my game. I grant significantly less XP for killing monsters, but I make up for it by granting xp for - innovative ideas, practicing a trade, roleplaying, disarming a trap, etc. etc. Spending experience to craft items is more an abstract method of keeping the PC's power in check than anything else. (That is, so PCs making items have a much harder limit to making magic items than just gold and time.) I just ignore this. Either way, experience points is as much life energy as it's a PC's level of experience anyway, so it's essentially doing the work of two concepts (life energy and a PC's level of experience) so calling it something else doens't really matter. Common language should be highly regional. For example: Eberron would have Brelish, Aundaira, Lhaza, Mrorian, Cyran, etc. If you were from a particular region, you'd have to choose the other regions as bonus languages, or spend skill points on them. This is kinda like what I did, but harsher. While you want to challenge your PCs, you don't want to punish them. Particularly since most of these nations do want to know how to talk to each other. Faerun, for example, would have severe difficulties without a common language given the amount of trading going on between the various nations. But eliminating common in such a way would essentially turn a difficult task in communication to an impossible one without spending precious skill points and spells (possibly gold as well) at every chance. Crafting skills and feats should have mechanics for generating materials, as opposed to simply purchasing them. Perhaps a Profession (Herbalist) check would be used to generate the special inks for scrolls, Profession (lumberjack) could be used to generate the wood needed for bows, etc. I thought perhaps use the same rules as generating income under the profession entry in PHB, but this is way too slow it seems to me. Also, in a world with non-linear time, this would allow a PC to simply state, "I gather the materials" for whatever item they wanted to craft. This method would have the benefit of making characters less treasure hungry and more self-supporting. this seems to coincide with what I was talking about earlier. Essentially I think that finding a specific component (using Inu Yasha's tooth to repair the tetsaiga sword and to make it more powerful would be an excellent example of what I'm talking about.) The money that goes into paying to make an item is just paying someone else to either retrieve the item or generate it. That's how I feel about it, anyway.
Korhal_IV 04-09-05, 06:55 PM	Common language should be highly regional. For example: Eberron would have Brelish, Aundaira, Lhaza, Mrorian, Cyran, etc. If you were from a particular region, you'd have to choose the other regions as bonus languages, or spend skill points on them. Specific nit-pick: All of these Eberron nations were one nation for thousands of years, and only split recently. I suggest that this is sufficient impetus for a single common language and heavy regional accents. In other regions of Eberron (Sarlona, Argonnessen, Aerenal) this doesn't hold true.
Manyfist 04-09-05, 09:34 PM	I'm in a jungle, there is no civilization for miles and centuries. I want to scribe a scroll (or craft a bow, enchant some boots, etc). I have to pay gp to acquire the materials to do so. Do I just pour the gold on the ground? Is it impossible to find wood in a forest to craft a bow? What are these "special materials" needed to scribe a scroll? Hmm... then you should of Stocked up on supplies or teleport to the nearest scroll maker. Also What do you mean by for miles and Centuries? You mean their is no Civilzation in the area for centuries? The language "Common" is shared by all intelligent creatures in a campaign world. However, in our modern civilization with mass communication, global economy, and cultural mixing we are centuries away from a common tongue. Even in locations as small as europe, there can exist dozens of tongues. Culture is defined by language. Dwarven Barbarians can't read/write, but they speak the exact same language that humans on the other side of a continent speak Ok how are you able to communicate with your players if there is no common language? Are you and your players Multi-Linguist? If you going to do it that no one is going to understand each other how is that going to work? Experience points should be renamed life-points, soul points, or karma points. You gain them by killing/defeating your enemies and draining their life essence, or through defeating them politically and making your opponents "lose face" (hehe, face points/cool points). This is a way to explain spending "experience" to empower magic items and spells. As it stands it is too abstract of an idea and it makes little sense. "I killed a dragon, now I can write that book I've been planning on writing. I saved the princess, here's that sword you ordered! Good thing those brigands attacked us, now I can brew this potion." RETARDED! EXP, is vital. Life-Points= HP, Soul-Points= Mana, Karma Points=Mana as well. You kill and you gain the ablity to brew a Potion, which should not be only way you can brew a potion is if you try and try again.
Darkblade40001 04-09-05, 09:55 PM	As for the whole argument on how experienced a person is, and skill ranks like craft getting better by killing things, I have a few rules. 1. You have to train to get any class features when leveling. That increased Base attack bonus you want? Better have fighting practice. Those ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) you need? Better be boning up on the lore and tomes for several weeks. Looking to score a Cleave feat? Let's hope there's someone around who knows how to do it and teach you. And hope you've got enough to pay him. 2. You can go up a level and get everything you've trained for that you'd earn. Let's say you get to second level fighter. You've been gotten skilled at fighting (base attack bonus and more HP), tougher (base fortitude increase), and learned cleave from a retired comander in an army. However, you wanted to get some ranks in swim, but you didn't train. So those ranks go into a pool that you keep track of that you could spend and finally put them on your character sheet as soon as you've done proper training for your skill(s). 3. There's more than on way to level up. Experience can be gained from any significant challenge. For example, that commoner Joe who knows how to fiddle a little, could play for the king (if he's hired, that is). If he impresses the king, that's worth major experience! He may even go up a level, at which point he can spend his skill ranks in perform (fiddle), or save them for something he wants to train for. However, going up a level does not give Joe a better base attack bonus or more hp (etc.) unless he gets "experienced" in those fields. In fact, this way, he could become the greatest performer ever, gaining tons of ranks in perform (fiddle) as he levels up again and again, but he'll be just as good as a 1st level commoner on the battle field. 4. HP doesn't always represent physical hits. (This next little paragraph is not my own original idea. It was another poster's post on a seperate thread, but I don't remember his/her name) A 1st level fighter with full HP goes up against an ogre. If the ogre clubs him, that fighter will almost certainly die/lose consciousness, because he's not experienced enough at fighting to anticipate the blow and weav or dodge to lessen the damage. A 5th level fighter with full HP goes up against an ogre. If the ogre "hits" him with his club, he can quickly see where the blow is going to be and dodge out of the way, parry with his weapon, or at least move himself so vital organs are out of the way. Doing the first to would mean he lost HP in that his stamina has gone down, and another couple blows could wear him down enough so he can't stop another from dropping him. Those are some rules I use to add a sort of realism to my game, remove some abstractness, and make my players not just be hack-and-slashers. (sorry for the long rant)
Dan Hemmens 04-10-05, 05:26 AM	So your Expert artisans have maxxed out Craft, their highest score in Int, and feats dedicated to further boosting that Craft score. Performers have the same, with the Perform skill and Cha being the tools of their trade (in a metagamey sense). So even a few levels below the PCs (more, if the PCs aren't putting points in the relevant skills every level), your NPCs will out craft, sing, dance, and write them (unless they're bards, but I think we can all agree that that's a special case). Two problems here: firstly, it strikes me as *deeply* wrong that carpenters and blackmiths should all have maxed out Int. It strikes me as only slighlty odd that all jugglers should have a maxed out Cha. Secondly, we aren't talking about characters "a couple of levels below the PCs", we're talking about characters with at *most* three levels in an NPC class. What you really need to do is to just accept that D&D was not *ever* intended to represent a realistic world. Take the adventurers out of the dungeon, and they break any system you put them in contact with.