Anyone else looking forward to being an old grognard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anyone else looking forward to being an old grognard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlaineTog
08-22-07, 04:44 PM Ok, so a lot of us are worried about 4th edition, but aren't you just a little bit anxious to stalk around the boards grumbling about the good ol' 3.5 days? I for one can't wait for spiels like "When I was 1st level, we had skill points, saving throws, and fire-and-forget casting. none of this fancy-shamncy 'streamlined' stuff you kids have today. Oh man were those the days."

:cool:
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
08-22-07, 05:15 PM "Why, back in my day we had to walk up hill both ways in three feet of snow - what with the glaciers having not receded yet - to the LGS and defend my dice and minis from roving mastodons to earn the right to MAYBE get a game in if the other players managed to make it past the mastodons too! And when we wanted to make a fighter - because that was what the Tank was called in those days - conceptually unique, we scoured as many as thirty splatbooks for skill tricks, feats, magic items, and prestige classes! Pfft... 'streamlined'..."

:P
HelloKitty
08-22-07, 05:18 PM I am a grognard of many colors.

I remember alignment languages.

I remember THACO.

I remember getting XP for treasure.

Now I will recall skill points.

And feats.

And wonderful supplements.

And an edition that should have lasted another four years.

I skipped 2nd edition altogether.

Perhaps I'll skip 4e too.
Kalai_Eljahn
08-22-07, 07:04 PM I only played 2e in computer RPG's that work on our Mac SE, but realized exactly how much unacknowledged experience I had when one of our rules-lawyer-type players didn't know what a displacer beast was. Or a beholder. Not to mention THAC0 or level caps or thief alignment restrictions...but I never was quite sure what the differences between editions were pre-3.0, all I knew were the differences between computer games, getting colorful mages and paladins and rangers and having the deity you worshipped make a difference...

Yeah, I'm looking forward to being an old-timer. ;) Waiting to see what comes out in 4e and if anyone buys me the books to decide whether to convert, because frankly, four books will eventually not seem like much of an investment...
Lazlo_Toth
08-22-07, 09:00 PM I remember in order to be a Bard, you had to be a fighter, a thief, then a druid before taking levels in Bard (the FIRST prestige class)...

There were attack matrices and no THAC0 for each class. The assassin was a core class. I remember when Wargamers were complaining about RPers taking over the gaming industry...

Now those were the days... The Chick Tracts... *sigh*

You had to know math back then! hehe

Actually being a grognard is one of the things that make me feel good. I can appreciate where RPGs came from and the hard work going into them at all times... I like where RPGs have evolved and the extreme level of product quality improvement overall. The community is cool. Before, my gaming universe settled in the desert where I live. Now I can talk to other gamers around the world and get near instant information from the publisher on a particular piece of material instead of waiting for the Dragon to hit my game store shelf. I'd say these are good times. When I played D&D in the 80s, there were thousands of gamers. Now there are Millions. How cool is that.

4E is just another edition to me; a further refinement of my favorite game. I have fond memories in games of every edition I played.

4E won't be the last - it's just the latest in the evolution of the hobby. I have no regrets and I look forward to the new game.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
08-22-07, 09:13 PM My 2nd ed veteran friend still hasn't stopped teasing me.

However, I do kind of look forward to being able to go off on "Back in my day..." speeches.
Vaelan
08-22-07, 10:28 PM I'm pretty sure living through a possible edition transition isn't going to turn me into an irrational, raving lunatic, so I guess I don't have a lot to add to this thread, aside from the ascription of some sort of crazy negative connotation to the term "grognard"!
DrowBattlemind
08-22-07, 11:38 PM I started out with the blue Expert Set D&D box, then moved on up to AD&D. Then 2nd ed came along, and although saddened by the loss of Barbarians, Psionics, and Half Orcs, I came to like 2nd Ed.

Then, thanks to the Complete series, we got Barbarians, Psionics, and Half-orcs back! (and except for the Half-orcs, the other two were kinda broken...)
Just in time for TSR to fold and WotC to release 3rd ed D&D (WHAT??? No "A"????) :eek: :OMG!

Third ed brought back (in the PHB, no less!) Barbarians AND Half-Orcs! But no psionics. Then they came out with The Psionics Handbook! :w00t: Not just one psi class, no, they had the Psionicist, er, sorry, the Psion AND the Psychic Warrior! And all that... just in time for 3.5! :censored:

However, 3.5, while basically a rehash of 3rd ed, altered certain classes, and straightened many of the rules confusions we had. They even brought back a new, improved Expanded Psionics Handbook, which not only introduced new classes, was BALANCED! :eek: :w00t: Then Complete Psionic came along... :censored:

Now we have another new edition, 4th ed, and it seems to have taken the customizable class concept from D20 modern and Star Wars Saga (Talent Trees!), as well as a new system for magic to ensure that beginning Wizards aren't just one-shot wonders. A streamlined combat system, streamlined skills, and more options than ever before for characters. :thinks:

While I also wished that 3.5 had lasted longer, I'm curious. If it proves as much fun as the new Star Wars Saga edition, I may switch (oh, heck, unless it totally sucks, I probably will, anyway!); if it doesn't, I still have my numerous bookshelves of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 edition books to run another 10-15 years of D&D campaigning.

I'm old, but I'll probably never be a grognard. I still remember the bad old days of AD&D and 2nd ed AD&D rulebooks. Great adventures, great world settings, horrible rules! :gel: (because they didn't have a vomiting smiley) I'm too honest with myself to fall into the nostalgia "back in my day, everything was BETTER!" garbage. because, "Back in my day, lots of things SUCKED! Shoddy editing, contradictory or overly complicated game mechanics, huge convoluted graphs and charts... darn it! Pass me my tequila, er, medicine! And get off my lawn!"
Ohtar Turinson
08-23-07, 12:52 AM Shoddy editing, contradictory or overly complicated game mechanics, huge convoluted graphs and charts...

It does my heart good to see that- I suspected it was the case, but I was too young to ever really play 2ed, and it amuses me to see the "WotC is bad because they don't catch every single last error" shot down.

I probably shouldn't be posting here though. They'd have to really screw up (I'm not even really sure how they'd do it) to lose my business completely.
RumpleCragstan
08-23-07, 01:19 AM Yeah, me and my friends are already complaining about 4e in some ways.... and thank god we havn't seen our 2e veteran lately.

We're so used to 3.5 being the new, hip thing to play. And now that 4e is coming, I'm kinda scared. 3.5 works well enough, but at the same time, I'm looking forward to new mechanics, hopefully that were brought forth from the lessons learned from mistakes made in 3.5e and 3e.

Yeah, in some ways I'll have those "Good 'ol days" speeches that I can go off into if things fail, I hope that they won't. I hope that 4e will make more sense, have better high-level content (rather than the rocket-launcher tag we have now, which I really don't like.) and classes that don't get laughed out of the PHB (fighter anyone?).

WotC has had 10 years to learn from all the messups they made since 3 and 3.5, so I think they'll be able to do something nice.

I just hope that 4e is still going to be d20, as its a really good system overall.... any news on that yet?
bonethug0108
08-23-07, 01:47 AM It will still be d20.
Stormonu
08-23-07, 02:36 AM Ugh, I started with basic D&D (holmes edition), got introduced to 1E, quickly moved to 2E, skipped 2.5E (skills & powers) and finally achieved what I thought was Nirvana - getting something published under TSR's banner! Then I fought and protested going to 3E when the company I felt that had killed my game (damn you CCG's taking my roleplayers away!!!) bought the company that had drowned itself trying to follow Magic's wake. Well, I bought the game to keep up and keep "in the business", and 3E turned out to be good, and just when I got comfortable and was going to try and get something published - they switch to 3.5E. I get myself up to speed, update my stuff to be published...only to get the first product out two months before 4E is announced.

I feel old, and betrayed. I guess I'll go to 4E (D&D is my *sad* life), but I'm running out of space at my house for editions...
JoAT
08-23-07, 03:03 AM I'm not really going to be a Grogard, since I was about a day away from redesigning the D&D system for my next game when that weird countdown popped up... After all, the world is going to be bright and shiny and new when 4E hits, and it will be the best thing since self-toasting bread....

... Ah hell, who'm I kidding. I just wanna spend my time going "Damn kids and their MP3s."
NobodyRemembersThis
08-23-07, 07:30 AM I can't wait for 3.0/3.5 to get pushed to the Out of Print boards, myself. Only then will true grognards be made. :smirk:
Khadmus
08-23-07, 07:39 AM 1) I'm too young to be a grognard...I've only used 3.5, and not for that long.
2) I already say "Damn kids and their MP3s". :P
Shadowhowler
08-23-07, 08:16 AM Oh yes... I allready have my membership card to Grognard's Annoymous... only, by posting this here I guess I sorta killed the 'annoymous' part.

Hmph.

:rolleyes:

Anyway... I was such a grognard that I didn't switch from AD&D 2nd edd till a little over a year ago... and just, as of a month ago, finished buying the books I needed to run a 3.5 game... and allong comes 4th edd.

:weep:

I are cold, and wet, and sad.
claypigeons
08-23-07, 08:21 AM I for one welcome our new 4.0 overlords. May they govern for 6-8 years before the arrival of the new 5.0 overlords...

Anyway... I like 3.5, so I'll continue to play it for a while, at least until a Psionics handbook is printed for 4E. After that, I'll grab (or borrow) the PHB and DMG, see if I like the rules enough to care to switch. (Which, of course, I probably will. I hate the 'per day' crap, so if things are changed so that everything is based around a ToB-esque system, I'll more than likely enjoy it.)
Man in the Funny Hat
08-24-07, 01:51 AM Why would anyone look forward to being a grognard? It isn't something that you make a goal in life - to be a holdout, a Luddite, unhip and uninterested in the newest and "best". It just sort of happens when new versions come along and you want to stick with the old one - often becoming bitter in the process. Bitter because YOUR preferences aren't being validated when so many others play the new version and more than just go along with it - they actually LIKE it, even PREFER it, and DISCOUNT your once-valuable opinion. It means knowing that with the inexorable passage of time your preferences become more and more isolated from the "mainstream" of an already extremely niche hobby.

Personally, I'm rather glad to hear that a new edition is again on its way, and though I naturally must reserve real judgement until enough facts are in to MAKE one the simpler, easier to run intent of it saves me from having to seriously consider actually BECOMING a grognard; a 1st Edition or OD&D Luddite.

My own objections over the last couple of years have never been fear and hatred of a possible 4E, but the constant clamor of doomsayers and willing victims who seem to live to assert that the mere concept of a new edition is a personal assault. I LOVE the idea of once again gaming with a fresh edition where EVERYTHING is once again new and unpredictable.
Tetsubo
08-24-07, 11:03 AM What do you mean "looking forward to..."? I am a grognard NOW!

:)

I too remember alignment languages... dumbest idea ever... Somehow my personal moral view of the universe has taught me a new language... huh?
mycroftb
08-26-07, 02:48 PM I only started last year, but yes, I look forward to one day teaching the next generation of gamers about this fun game. I'll have much fun telling about all the things that seemed okay this edition but were eclipsed by something much better in the next edition or the one after that.

And I look forward to one day pushing a button and having a robot yell at the kids to get off my lawn so I don't have to. Yay, modern conveniences.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlaineTog 08-22-07, 04:44 PM	Ok, so a lot of us are worried about 4th edition, but aren't you just a little bit anxious to stalk around the boards grumbling about the good ol' 3.5 days? I for one can't wait for spiels like "When I was 1st level, we had skill points, saving throws, and fire-and-forget casting. none of this fancy-shamncy 'streamlined' stuff you kids have today. Oh man were those the days." :cool:
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 08-22-07, 05:15 PM	"Why, back in my day we had to walk up hill both ways in three feet of snow - what with the glaciers having not receded yet - to the LGS and defend my dice and minis from roving mastodons to earn the right to MAYBE get a game in if the other players managed to make it past the mastodons too! And when we wanted to make a fighter - because that was what the Tank was called in those days - conceptually unique, we scoured as many as thirty splatbooks for skill tricks, feats, magic items, and prestige classes! Pfft... 'streamlined'..." :P
HelloKitty 08-22-07, 05:18 PM	I am a grognard of many colors. I remember alignment languages. I remember THACO. I remember getting XP for treasure. Now I will recall skill points. And feats. And wonderful supplements. And an edition that should have lasted another four years. I skipped 2nd edition altogether. Perhaps I'll skip 4e too.
Kalai_Eljahn 08-22-07, 07:04 PM	I only played 2e in computer RPG's that work on our Mac SE, but realized exactly how much unacknowledged experience I had when one of our rules-lawyer-type players didn't know what a displacer beast was. Or a beholder. Not to mention THAC0 or level caps or thief alignment restrictions...but I never was quite sure what the differences between editions were pre-3.0, all I knew were the differences between computer games, getting colorful mages and paladins and rangers and having the deity you worshipped make a difference... Yeah, I'm looking forward to being an old-timer. ;) Waiting to see what comes out in 4e and if anyone buys me the books to decide whether to convert, because frankly, four books will eventually not seem like much of an investment...
Lazlo_Toth 08-22-07, 09:00 PM	I remember in order to be a Bard, you had to be a fighter, a thief, then a druid before taking levels in Bard (the FIRST prestige class)... There were attack matrices and no THAC0 for each class. The assassin was a core class. I remember when Wargamers were complaining about RPers taking over the gaming industry... Now those were the days... The Chick Tracts... sigh You had to know math back then! hehe Actually being a grognard is one of the things that make me feel good. I can appreciate where RPGs came from and the hard work going into them at all times... I like where RPGs have evolved and the extreme level of product quality improvement overall. The community is cool. Before, my gaming universe settled in the desert where I live. Now I can talk to other gamers around the world and get near instant information from the publisher on a particular piece of material instead of waiting for the Dragon to hit my game store shelf. I'd say these are good times. When I played D&D in the 80s, there were thousands of gamers. Now there are Millions. How cool is that. 4E is just another edition to me; a further refinement of my favorite game. I have fond memories in games of every edition I played. 4E won't be the last - it's just the latest in the evolution of the hobby. I have no regrets and I look forward to the new game.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 08-22-07, 09:13 PM	My 2nd ed veteran friend still hasn't stopped teasing me. However, I do kind of look forward to being able to go off on "Back in my day..." speeches.
Vaelan 08-22-07, 10:28 PM	I'm pretty sure living through a possible edition transition isn't going to turn me into an irrational, raving lunatic, so I guess I don't have a lot to add to this thread, aside from the ascription of some sort of crazy negative connotation to the term "grognard"!
DrowBattlemind 08-22-07, 11:38 PM	I started out with the blue Expert Set D&D box, then moved on up to AD&D. Then 2nd ed came along, and although saddened by the loss of Barbarians, Psionics, and Half Orcs, I came to like 2nd Ed. Then, thanks to the Complete series, we got Barbarians, Psionics, and Half-orcs back! (and except for the Half-orcs, the other two were kinda broken...) Just in time for TSR to fold and WotC to release 3rd ed D&D (WHAT??? No "A"????) :eek: :OMG! Third ed brought back (in the PHB, no less!) Barbarians AND Half-Orcs! But no psionics. Then they came out with The Psionics Handbook! :w00t: Not just one psi class, no, they had the Psionicist, er, sorry, the Psion AND the Psychic Warrior! And all that... just in time for 3.5! :censored: However, 3.5, while basically a rehash of 3rd ed, altered certain classes, and straightened many of the rules confusions we had. They even brought back a new, improved Expanded Psionics Handbook, which not only introduced new classes, was BALANCED! :eek: :w00t: Then Complete Psionic came along... :censored: Now we have another new edition, 4th ed, and it seems to have taken the customizable class concept from D20 modern and Star Wars Saga (Talent Trees!), as well as a new system for magic to ensure that beginning Wizards aren't just one-shot wonders. A streamlined combat system, streamlined skills, and more options than ever before for characters. :thinks: While I also wished that 3.5 had lasted longer, I'm curious. If it proves as much fun as the new Star Wars Saga edition, I may switch (oh, heck, unless it totally sucks, I probably will, anyway!); if it doesn't, I still have my numerous bookshelves of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 edition books to run another 10-15 years of D&D campaigning. I'm old, but I'll probably never be a grognard. I still remember the bad old days of AD&D and 2nd ed AD&D rulebooks. Great adventures, great world settings, horrible rules! :gel: (because they didn't have a vomiting smiley) I'm too honest with myself to fall into the nostalgia "back in my day, everything was BETTER!" garbage. because, "Back in my day, lots of things SUCKED! Shoddy editing, contradictory or overly complicated game mechanics, huge convoluted graphs and charts... darn it! Pass me my tequila, er, medicine! And get off my lawn!"
Ohtar Turinson 08-23-07, 12:52 AM	Shoddy editing, contradictory or overly complicated game mechanics, huge convoluted graphs and charts... It does my heart good to see that- I suspected it was the case, but I was too young to ever really play 2ed, and it amuses me to see the "WotC is bad because they don't catch every single last error" shot down. I probably shouldn't be posting here though. They'd have to really screw up (I'm not even really sure how they'd do it) to lose my business completely.
RumpleCragstan 08-23-07, 01:19 AM	Yeah, me and my friends are already complaining about 4e in some ways.... and thank god we havn't seen our 2e veteran lately. We're so used to 3.5 being the new, hip thing to play. And now that 4e is coming, I'm kinda scared. 3.5 works well enough, but at the same time, I'm looking forward to new mechanics, hopefully that were brought forth from the lessons learned from mistakes made in 3.5e and 3e. Yeah, in some ways I'll have those "Good 'ol days" speeches that I can go off into if things fail, I hope that they won't. I hope that 4e will make more sense, have better high-level content (rather than the rocket-launcher tag we have now, which I really don't like.) and classes that don't get laughed out of the PHB (fighter anyone?). WotC has had 10 years to learn from all the messups they made since 3 and 3.5, so I think they'll be able to do something nice. I just hope that 4e is still going to be d20, as its a really good system overall.... any news on that yet?
bonethug0108 08-23-07, 01:47 AM	It will still be d20.
Stormonu 08-23-07, 02:36 AM	Ugh, I started with basic D&D (holmes edition), got introduced to 1E, quickly moved to 2E, skipped 2.5E (skills & powers) and finally achieved what I thought was Nirvana - getting something published under TSR's banner! Then I fought and protested going to 3E when the company I felt that had killed my game (damn you CCG's taking my roleplayers away!!!) bought the company that had drowned itself trying to follow Magic's wake. Well, I bought the game to keep up and keep "in the business", and 3E turned out to be good, and just when I got comfortable and was going to try and get something published - they switch to 3.5E. I get myself up to speed, update my stuff to be published...only to get the first product out two months before 4E is announced. I feel old, and betrayed. I guess I'll go to 4E (D&D is my sad life), but I'm running out of space at my house for editions...
JoAT 08-23-07, 03:03 AM	I'm not really going to be a Grogard, since I was about a day away from redesigning the D&D system for my next game when that weird countdown popped up... After all, the world is going to be bright and shiny and new when 4E hits, and it will be the best thing since self-toasting bread.... ... Ah hell, who'm I kidding. I just wanna spend my time going "Damn kids and their MP3s."
NobodyRemembersThis 08-23-07, 07:30 AM	I can't wait for 3.0/3.5 to get pushed to the Out of Print boards, myself. Only then will true grognards be made. :smirk:
Khadmus 08-23-07, 07:39 AM	1) I'm too young to be a grognard...I've only used 3.5, and not for that long. 2) I already say "Damn kids and their MP3s". :P
Shadowhowler 08-23-07, 08:16 AM	Oh yes... I allready have my membership card to Grognard's Annoymous... only, by posting this here I guess I sorta killed the 'annoymous' part. Hmph. :rolleyes: Anyway... I was such a grognard that I didn't switch from AD&D 2nd edd till a little over a year ago... and just, as of a month ago, finished buying the books I needed to run a 3.5 game... and allong comes 4th edd. :weep: I are cold, and wet, and sad.
claypigeons 08-23-07, 08:21 AM	I for one welcome our new 4.0 overlords. May they govern for 6-8 years before the arrival of the new 5.0 overlords... Anyway... I like 3.5, so I'll continue to play it for a while, at least until a Psionics handbook is printed for 4E. After that, I'll grab (or borrow) the PHB and DMG, see if I like the rules enough to care to switch. (Which, of course, I probably will. I hate the 'per day' crap, so if things are changed so that everything is based around a ToB-esque system, I'll more than likely enjoy it.)
Man in the Funny Hat 08-24-07, 01:51 AM	Why would anyone look forward to being a grognard? It isn't something that you make a goal in life - to be a holdout, a Luddite, unhip and uninterested in the newest and "best". It just sort of happens when new versions come along and you want to stick with the old one - often becoming bitter in the process. Bitter because YOUR preferences aren't being validated when so many others play the new version and more than just go along with it - they actually LIKE it, even PREFER it, and DISCOUNT your once-valuable opinion. It means knowing that with the inexorable passage of time your preferences become more and more isolated from the "mainstream" of an already extremely niche hobby. Personally, I'm rather glad to hear that a new edition is again on its way, and though I naturally must reserve real judgement until enough facts are in to MAKE one the simpler, easier to run intent of it saves me from having to seriously consider actually BECOMING a grognard; a 1st Edition or OD&D Luddite. My own objections over the last couple of years have never been fear and hatred of a possible 4E, but the constant clamor of doomsayers and willing victims who seem to live to assert that the mere concept of a new edition is a personal assault. I LOVE the idea of once again gaming with a fresh edition where EVERYTHING is once again new and unpredictable.
Tetsubo 08-24-07, 11:03 AM	What do you mean "looking forward to..."? I am a grognard NOW! :) I too remember alignment languages... dumbest idea ever... Somehow my personal moral view of the universe has taught me a new language... huh?
mycroftb 08-26-07, 02:48 PM	I only started last year, but yes, I look forward to one day teaching the next generation of gamers about this fun game. I'll have much fun telling about all the things that seemed okay this edition but were eclipsed by something much better in the next edition or the one after that. And I look forward to one day pushing a button and having a robot yell at the kids to get off my lawn so I don't have to. Yay, modern conveniences.