Anyone know how Outsiders age? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anyone know how Outsiders age? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Damage_Incarnate
11-04-06, 08:28 AM Okay, this is my first post to the forums and it's kinda dull.

So far I have found very few references to do with ageing naturally in the books. Other than the Vital Statistics information on page 109 of the PHB that covers Six core player character races I've found very little on the subject.

There was an interesting section in Hordes of the Abyss page 10 that clarified that demons do not die of old age, but that's all else I've noticed so far.

This query has come about because it is possible for a Humanoid’s type to change and become an outsider (native) through attaining tenth level of prestige classes, for example Complete Divine’s Contemplative and Divine Crusader classes. Does such a creature cease to age or have a lowed ageing rate?
Is this purely a local GM’s call on a case by case basis? Are outsiders normally immortal (age wise)?
Do such converted characters become true outsider (native)’s or are they more equivalent to Planetouched characters?
Do Planetouched creatures have extended lifespans?
Is there anywhere that standard lifespans have been listed for other races?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Dunamin
11-04-06, 08:44 AM In general, outsiders are immortal. That does not include planetouched.

I find it hard to believe that a prestige class would grant immortality, by taking all 10 levels of it. Monks similarly become outsiders at level 20, but still die when they've outlived their lifespan. I haven't looked at the prestige classes you mention, however, so I can't say.
Damage_Incarnate
11-04-06, 10:09 AM All they say is that type changes to outsider (native), it's really vague and the description of the type in the MM1 doesn't do anything to clear it up either.

I'm hoping to get as many opinions on the matter as possible, there is a case to be argued for either way.

Planetouched are decended from a mingling of a mortal bloodline with outsiders after many generations, it makes scence that they arn't immortal.
However, Monks become 'magical creatures' that are 'treated like' an outsider when they attain perfect self, fair enbough if they stay mortal, Druids gain the ability to no longer age when they hit level 15, but they still die when they pass their expiry date.
Contemplative's discription is similar to the Monk's 'magical being' and 'treated like for the sake of magical spell' etc again so probabally mortal.
However the Divine Crusader stated it transforms into a creature of the planes and that it's actual type changes to outsider (native).
That's the case I'm most curious about, whether it affects aging at all or not as it now conforms to the rules for it's new type.
The point that planetouched may be listed as outsider (native) and still age calls into question if other outsiders may also age or not?
The Planetouched may be the only exception to the rule or they may be the example that brings unasked questions to the fore.

A class granting immortality is not that far fetched, recall the Dragon Disciple becomes a Half-Dragon at it's climax and they could live long enough to become effectively immortal like dragons do (true they have a lifespan but it's a pretty darn long one).

Again how long half-dragons can live would also be useful information to have.
Sarella Starshine
11-04-06, 10:29 AM for things like that, they live as long as you want them to live. A dragon can live for thousands of years, so it would not be reasonable to have a half-dragon live a fraction of that.

although i can see the reasoning that a divine crusader could become immortal after advancing all the way through, since it does state they can be rezed buy all rez spells, i would have them be mortal, otherwise they could never truely die, and that's something only gods should be able to do.
Vestigial_Thumb
11-04-06, 10:50 AM Immortality does nothing and helps no one, so I allow certain classes to gain it, and Elves are immortal in my campaigns (an eternity of wussiness, anyone?).
Millennium
11-04-06, 04:57 PM Native outsiders do not age at a faster or slower rate than the races from which they sprang. A 20th-level monk, for example, ages just as quickly as he did at 19th level. The Timeless Body class feature does not slow down the aging process, only its negative effects: rather than slowly withering away until you die, one day you just fall down and don't get back up.

The only PrC I'm aware of that actually grants useful immortality is the Green Star Adept, which I think comes from Complete Arcane. The Alienist also technically grants immortality, but since you're "stolen away by horrible entities when your time is up, and never seen again" it's not a useful form of immortality.
Seeker95
11-04-06, 05:01 PM If immortality has an impact on the PCs in your game, more power to you.
I have never had a campaign take more than 20 years of in-game time.
Shemeska the Marauder
11-09-06, 02:13 AM True outsiders (celestials, fiends, slaadi, etc) are immortal, but as to how to handle 'aging' with them, it's a bit tricky.

Some true outsiders can be born, and conceivably go through a very short, transitional period before reaching physical maturity. Beyond physical maturity however, you might just have them stop cold on "aging" beyond that point, or you might have them continue to "age" but only accrue the positive benefits of aging.

Since most games never jump massive periods of time, true outsider PCs don't ever have to deal with the issue, and with NPCs I just handwave the issue since it really doesn't matter, they'll have what stats are needed and I won't worry about what stat would or wouldn't be affected by age catagory or how many millennia old they were, etc.
Thwyvylyn
11-09-06, 03:07 AM Age tables for some of the extraplanar races can be found in Chapter 2 of the Planescape 3.5 setting but it's not "official" in that sense.
xaoswolf
11-09-06, 11:56 AM Planescape had a much better answer for questions lke this.

Planer PC races had age limits. Everything else either dies in the bloodwar or was stabbed in the back by a rival faction.

No need to worry about immortality there.

And if they try to cheat old age by moving to the astral, let them look at dead powers, then either sic a Astral Dreadnaught on them, or wait one hundred years and send them back to the prime and see how they like aging 100 years in an instant.
CryoSilver
11-09-06, 04:38 PM IMC, true outsiders (fiends and celestials) are immortal, and the more powerful they are, generally the older they are, as they "evolve" into higher forms over time, or are promoted.
Damage_Incarnate
11-11-06, 05:30 PM Often 'true outsiders' do seem to be immortal, yet there are some species of true outsiders that are not, and this is the cause of my being vexed.
The Planar Handbook lists Aasimars and Tieflings as having 150 years max age, but also lists (true) outsiders that have max ages. Such as the Bariaurs of Ysgard that can live to 225 years, the Neraphim of Limbo that can live to 450 years, the Shadowswyfts (planetouched but still outsiders without the native subtype) of Shadow plane ancestry that can live to 69 years, and the Wildren of the Beastlands that can live to 560 years.
This also brings up annother question, when an outsider dies of old age what happens to it's essence, does it merge with the plane to be reborn again or does it completely cease to exist?
Has anyone seen any other current scources that lists age caps for outsiders? I'm running a rather outsider heavy campaign and the more detail I have on how their cycles work the more it helps me.
Shemeska the Marauder
11-11-06, 07:08 PM Often 'true outsiders' do seem to be immortal, yet there are some species of true outsiders that are not, and this is the cause of my being vexed.
The Planar Handbook lists Aasimars and Tieflings as having 150 years max age, but also lists (true) outsiders that have max ages. Such as the Bariaurs of Ysgard that can live to 225 years, the Neraphim of Limbo that can live to 450 years, the Shadowswyfts (planetouched but still outsiders without the native subtype) of Shadow plane ancestry that can live to 69 years, and the Wildren of the Beastlands that can live to 560 years.

To be honest, all planetouched should be considered native outsiders, and as such have a finite lifespan. Neraphim are best thought of as a slaadi tainted line of mortals, planetouched native outsiders, and the same thing for Shadowswyfts as well. Beyond the planetouched, while Bariaurs are native to Ysgard, I'd peg them more as extraplanar but not actually outsiders (they breed conventionally, don't form from petitioners, and don't form from a plane itself).

This also brings up annother question, when an outsider dies of old age what happens to it's essence, does it merge with the plane to be reborn again or does it completely cease to exist?

No true outsider should die of old age. Planetouched etc who die of old age should probably form conventional petitioners, though half-fiends/celestials are probably just as likely to merge directly with the plane whose taint runs in their blood.

Has anyone seen any other current scources that lists age caps for outsiders?

The races chapter over on Planewalker has some age guidelines for various planar PC races.
Tequila_Sunrise
11-11-06, 09:30 PM Ultimately it's up to each DM to decide who is and isn't immortal. Since this issue has virtually no impact on game balance, it is completely a matter of personal taste. I myself, for example, consider dragons to be immortal despite the fact that the Draconomicon gives specific rules for their aging and death process.
Damage_Incarnate
11-16-06, 04:04 PM To be honest, all planetouched should be considered native outsiders, and as such have a finite life-span.

I would agree and wonder if the Shadowswyft entry omitted (native) by accident, If there is any errata for the Planar Handbook I would love to see it.

Neraphim are best thought of as a slaadi tainted line of mortals,

If we are to progress with the incorrectly categorised assumption, I would have listed them as a humanoid native to Limbo and extraplanar everywhere else, as its background is quite clear that they are not a mingling of Slaadi and mortal blood. Lets not that forget Slaadi reproduction uses other races as a given and always results in one form of true Slaad or another.

Bariaurs are native to Ysgard, I'd peg them more as extraplanar but not actually outsiders (they breed conventionally, don't form from petitioners, and don't form from a plane itself).

There lies the crux, where the line is drawn between outsider and extraplanar. Outsiders as a rule don’t have to eat or sleep, yet the description of the (exalted) Bariaurs in the Book of Exalted Deeds describes them as eating the meat from animals they hunt themselves. True, outsiders can eat, they just don’t have to. However the Planar Handbook does mention that Bariaurs have parents, this would suggest that they would simply be an extraplanar mortal race.
Are the entries wrong in their classification?
I’d love to know what the exact criteria for classification was, perhaps it is drawn out of a hat, who knows.

No true outsider should die of old age. Planetouched etc who die of old age should probably form conventional petitioners, though half-fiends/celestials are probably just as likely to merge directly with the plane whose taint runs in their blood.

That sounds reasonable to me, again if there were just errata to verify it...

The races chapter over on Planewalker has some age guidelines for various planar PC races.

Thanks, I'm not familiar with Planewalker (obviously given my shallow knowledge on Planar matters). Is it a current (3.5) edition, and if so can you tell me it's full name so I might see about ordering it?

Ultimately it's up to each DM to decide who is and isn't immortal. Since this issue has virtually no impact on game balance, it is completely a matter of personal taste. I myself, for example, consider dragons to be immortal despite the fact that the Draconomicon gives specific rules for their ageing and death process.

You're quite right, it's just that before I make my callings on issues such as this in my games I like to be as well versed in the official views on them as I can. It helps me to establish as fair a ruling as I can, keeping to the spirit of the game without giving the rules-lawyers any obvious loopholes to exploit and sabotage with.

I'm still refining my own setting and I'm currently working on the cosmology. It helps with writing background if I know which creatures/legendary champions/demons that were active in my worlds ancient history might make appearances through not having died of old age without making one rule for plot creatures and another for player characters. "One system to rule them all" if you will...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Damage_Incarnate 11-04-06, 08:28 AM	Okay, this is my first post to the forums and it's kinda dull. So far I have found very few references to do with ageing naturally in the books. Other than the Vital Statistics information on page 109 of the PHB that covers Six core player character races I've found very little on the subject. There was an interesting section in Hordes of the Abyss page 10 that clarified that demons do not die of old age, but that's all else I've noticed so far. This query has come about because it is possible for a Humanoid’s type to change and become an outsider (native) through attaining tenth level of prestige classes, for example Complete Divine’s Contemplative and Divine Crusader classes. Does such a creature cease to age or have a lowed ageing rate? Is this purely a local GM’s call on a case by case basis? Are outsiders normally immortal (age wise)? Do such converted characters become true outsider (native)’s or are they more equivalent to Planetouched characters? Do Planetouched creatures have extended lifespans? Is there anywhere that standard lifespans have been listed for other races? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.
Dunamin 11-04-06, 08:44 AM	In general, outsiders are immortal. That does not include planetouched. I find it hard to believe that a prestige class would grant immortality, by taking all 10 levels of it. Monks similarly become outsiders at level 20, but still die when they've outlived their lifespan. I haven't looked at the prestige classes you mention, however, so I can't say.
Damage_Incarnate 11-04-06, 10:09 AM	All they say is that type changes to outsider (native), it's really vague and the description of the type in the MM1 doesn't do anything to clear it up either. I'm hoping to get as many opinions on the matter as possible, there is a case to be argued for either way. Planetouched are decended from a mingling of a mortal bloodline with outsiders after many generations, it makes scence that they arn't immortal. However, Monks become 'magical creatures' that are 'treated like' an outsider when they attain perfect self, fair enbough if they stay mortal, Druids gain the ability to no longer age when they hit level 15, but they still die when they pass their expiry date. Contemplative's discription is similar to the Monk's 'magical being' and 'treated like for the sake of magical spell' etc again so probabally mortal. However the Divine Crusader stated it transforms into a creature of the planes and that it's actual type changes to outsider (native). That's the case I'm most curious about, whether it affects aging at all or not as it now conforms to the rules for it's new type. The point that planetouched may be listed as outsider (native) and still age calls into question if other outsiders may also age or not? The Planetouched may be the only exception to the rule or they may be the example that brings unasked questions to the fore. A class granting immortality is not that far fetched, recall the Dragon Disciple becomes a Half-Dragon at it's climax and they could live long enough to become effectively immortal like dragons do (true they have a lifespan but it's a pretty darn long one). Again how long half-dragons can live would also be useful information to have.
Sarella Starshine 11-04-06, 10:29 AM	for things like that, they live as long as you want them to live. A dragon can live for thousands of years, so it would not be reasonable to have a half-dragon live a fraction of that. although i can see the reasoning that a divine crusader could become immortal after advancing all the way through, since it does state they can be rezed buy all rez spells, i would have them be mortal, otherwise they could never truely die, and that's something only gods should be able to do.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-04-06, 10:50 AM	Immortality does nothing and helps no one, so I allow certain classes to gain it, and Elves are immortal in my campaigns (an eternity of wussiness, anyone?).
Millennium 11-04-06, 04:57 PM	Native outsiders do not age at a faster or slower rate than the races from which they sprang. A 20th-level monk, for example, ages just as quickly as he did at 19th level. The Timeless Body class feature does not slow down the aging process, only its negative effects: rather than slowly withering away until you die, one day you just fall down and don't get back up. The only PrC I'm aware of that actually grants useful immortality is the Green Star Adept, which I think comes from Complete Arcane. The Alienist also technically grants immortality, but since you're "stolen away by horrible entities when your time is up, and never seen again" it's not a useful form of immortality.
Seeker95 11-04-06, 05:01 PM	If immortality has an impact on the PCs in your game, more power to you. I have never had a campaign take more than 20 years of in-game time.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-09-06, 02:13 AM	True outsiders (celestials, fiends, slaadi, etc) are immortal, but as to how to handle 'aging' with them, it's a bit tricky. Some true outsiders can be born, and conceivably go through a very short, transitional period before reaching physical maturity. Beyond physical maturity however, you might just have them stop cold on "aging" beyond that point, or you might have them continue to "age" but only accrue the positive benefits of aging. Since most games never jump massive periods of time, true outsider PCs don't ever have to deal with the issue, and with NPCs I just handwave the issue since it really doesn't matter, they'll have what stats are needed and I won't worry about what stat would or wouldn't be affected by age catagory or how many millennia old they were, etc.
Thwyvylyn 11-09-06, 03:07 AM	Age tables for some of the extraplanar races can be found in Chapter 2 of the Planescape 3.5 setting but it's not "official" in that sense.
xaoswolf 11-09-06, 11:56 AM	Planescape had a much better answer for questions lke this. Planer PC races had age limits. Everything else either dies in the bloodwar or was stabbed in the back by a rival faction. No need to worry about immortality there. And if they try to cheat old age by moving to the astral, let them look at dead powers, then either sic a Astral Dreadnaught on them, or wait one hundred years and send them back to the prime and see how they like aging 100 years in an instant.
CryoSilver 11-09-06, 04:38 PM	IMC, true outsiders (fiends and celestials) are immortal, and the more powerful they are, generally the older they are, as they "evolve" into higher forms over time, or are promoted.
Damage_Incarnate 11-11-06, 05:30 PM	Often 'true outsiders' do seem to be immortal, yet there are some species of true outsiders that are not, and this is the cause of my being vexed. The Planar Handbook lists Aasimars and Tieflings as having 150 years max age, but also lists (true) outsiders that have max ages. Such as the Bariaurs of Ysgard that can live to 225 years, the Neraphim of Limbo that can live to 450 years, the Shadowswyfts (planetouched but still outsiders without the native subtype) of Shadow plane ancestry that can live to 69 years, and the Wildren of the Beastlands that can live to 560 years. This also brings up annother question, when an outsider dies of old age what happens to it's essence, does it merge with the plane to be reborn again or does it completely cease to exist? Has anyone seen any other current scources that lists age caps for outsiders? I'm running a rather outsider heavy campaign and the more detail I have on how their cycles work the more it helps me.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-11-06, 07:08 PM	Often 'true outsiders' do seem to be immortal, yet there are some species of true outsiders that are not, and this is the cause of my being vexed. The Planar Handbook lists Aasimars and Tieflings as having 150 years max age, but also lists (true) outsiders that have max ages. Such as the Bariaurs of Ysgard that can live to 225 years, the Neraphim of Limbo that can live to 450 years, the Shadowswyfts (planetouched but still outsiders without the native subtype) of Shadow plane ancestry that can live to 69 years, and the Wildren of the Beastlands that can live to 560 years. To be honest, all planetouched should be considered native outsiders, and as such have a finite lifespan. Neraphim are best thought of as a slaadi tainted line of mortals, planetouched native outsiders, and the same thing for Shadowswyfts as well. Beyond the planetouched, while Bariaurs are native to Ysgard, I'd peg them more as extraplanar but not actually outsiders (they breed conventionally, don't form from petitioners, and don't form from a plane itself). This also brings up annother question, when an outsider dies of old age what happens to it's essence, does it merge with the plane to be reborn again or does it completely cease to exist? No true outsider should die of old age. Planetouched etc who die of old age should probably form conventional petitioners, though half-fiends/celestials are probably just as likely to merge directly with the plane whose taint runs in their blood. Has anyone seen any other current scources that lists age caps for outsiders? The races chapter over on Planewalker has some age guidelines for various planar PC races.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-11-06, 09:30 PM	Ultimately it's up to each DM to decide who is and isn't immortal. Since this issue has virtually no impact on game balance, it is completely a matter of personal taste. I myself, for example, consider dragons to be immortal despite the fact that the Draconomicon gives specific rules for their aging and death process.
Damage_Incarnate 11-16-06, 04:04 PM	To be honest, all planetouched should be considered native outsiders, and as such have a finite life-span. I would agree and wonder if the Shadowswyft entry omitted (native) by accident, If there is any errata for the Planar Handbook I would love to see it. Neraphim are best thought of as a slaadi tainted line of mortals, If we are to progress with the incorrectly categorised assumption, I would have listed them as a humanoid native to Limbo and extraplanar everywhere else, as its background is quite clear that they are not a mingling of Slaadi and mortal blood. Lets not that forget Slaadi reproduction uses other races as a given and always results in one form of true Slaad or another. Bariaurs are native to Ysgard, I'd peg them more as extraplanar but not actually outsiders (they breed conventionally, don't form from petitioners, and don't form from a plane itself). There lies the crux, where the line is drawn between outsider and extraplanar. Outsiders as a rule don’t have to eat or sleep, yet the description of the (exalted) Bariaurs in the Book of Exalted Deeds describes them as eating the meat from animals they hunt themselves. True, outsiders can eat, they just don’t have to. However the Planar Handbook does mention that Bariaurs have parents, this would suggest that they would simply be an extraplanar mortal race. Are the entries wrong in their classification? I’d love to know what the exact criteria for classification was, perhaps it is drawn out of a hat, who knows. No true outsider should die of old age. Planetouched etc who die of old age should probably form conventional petitioners, though half-fiends/celestials are probably just as likely to merge directly with the plane whose taint runs in their blood. That sounds reasonable to me, again if there were just errata to verify it... The races chapter over on Planewalker has some age guidelines for various planar PC races. Thanks, I'm not familiar with Planewalker (obviously given my shallow knowledge on Planar matters). Is it a current (3.5) edition, and if so can you tell me it's full name so I might see about ordering it? Ultimately it's up to each DM to decide who is and isn't immortal. Since this issue has virtually no impact on game balance, it is completely a matter of personal taste. I myself, for example, consider dragons to be immortal despite the fact that the Draconomicon gives specific rules for their ageing and death process. You're quite right, it's just that before I make my callings on issues such as this in my games I like to be as well versed in the official views on them as I can. It helps me to establish as fair a ruling as I can, keeping to the spirit of the game without giving the rules-lawyers any obvious loopholes to exploit and sabotage with. I'm still refining my own setting and I'm currently working on the cosmology. It helps with writing background if I know which creatures/legendary champions/demons that were active in my worlds ancient history might make appearances through not having died of old age without making one rule for plot creatures and another for player characters. "One system to rule them all" if you will...