Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pyke_Moonshadow 07-13-07, 08:00 AM	I was just wondering if there were any DMs or Players that play without PrCs. If so, how does the game differ for you? Are certain base classes seen more often? Is multiclassing common?
mshea 07-13-07, 08:08 AM	I don't play our game with prestige classes. Most folks are happy playing with the straight classes out of the PhB. We still have a fun and enjoyable game. I prefer simple to complex for the mechanics of the game so this works out well for us.
Seeker95 07-13-07, 08:15 AM	No prestige classes in my game. And no complaints from my players.
runestar 07-13-07, 08:47 AM	I am pretty sure there is little incentive to multiclass out of a straight druid build...:P
Leilond 07-13-07, 08:52 AM	My games Only core classes. Only ONE secondary class Prestige class not before 15th level character Prestige class cannot be higher level than none of your classes Prestige class will be role played
Sunic_Flames 07-13-07, 09:02 AM	I am pretty sure there is little incentive to multiclass out of a straight druid build...:P Druid 20s for the win. Nuff said really.
Pyke_Moonshadow 07-13-07, 09:08 AM	Druid 20s for the win. Nuff said really. Unless you don't like playing druids. :D Any of you have players that play fighters in those games?
hiryuu 07-13-07, 09:11 AM	Not very often, but that's usually because we can't find one that fits our character concept, but there's no house rule specifically forbidding it. However, we encourage each other to come up with prestige class ideas, since it's one of the best rules to come out of 3rd edition. This confuses me. Prestige class not before 15th level character Prestige class cannot be higher level than none of your classes Prestige class will be role played Not before level 15? Can't be higher level than any of your classes? Any reason why? Especially considering how much of a badass just a 5th level character is already....this feels worse than just disallowing prestige classes completely. It feels like it's a stealth version of house ruling prestige classes away. Prestige classes will be role played? Aren't you role-playing already?
Leilond 07-13-07, 09:25 AM	Not before level 15? Can't be higher level than any of your classes? Any reason why? Especially considering how much of a badass just a 5th level character is already....this feels worse than just disallowing prestige classes completely. It feels like it's a stealth version of house ruling prestige classes away. It works perfectly. PRESTIGE class is somethig SPECIAL that you cannot dominate better than your base abilities Prestige classes will be role played? Aren't you role-playing already? It means that you cannot say "I've the requisite, I take this prestige class" You have to comunicate me that you would like that prestige class and I will bring in the game the opportunity to train for that, becoming part of this secret group that know the secret of that class
rastlin_of_the_tomes 07-13-07, 09:44 AM	i have played with and without them, they are ok, but i feel no real point for most classes to do it unless they just want to. however there is one class i find that all palys would want to have, the gray guard, this class brodens your restrictions, so you can lie cheat steal, all for the greater good, and it makes your powers affect eventualy all aliments. why wouldnt you want the class that makes smite evil become smite all:D .
Seeker95 07-13-07, 09:48 AM	Any of you have players that play fighters in those games?My last campaign had: halfling monk8 half-orc fighter1 wizard7 gnome rogue8 human fighter8 half-elf druid8 half-orc barbarian8 human cleric8
Manyfist 07-13-07, 09:57 AM	I encourage Multi Classing, and Prestige classes. Its a lot more fun if you are sculpting your character into your vision with both mechanics and fluff. However you have to give a good reason to go into the class, and you can't "automatically" learn new stuff you have to train for it which can be independent. Ultimately I put it up to the players. I see no reason to limit someone if they really want to Multiclass. PrCs can be entered as long you have: A.) The concept in your mind. If you want to be a Pirate/Ninja then go ahead be a Rogue/Dread Pirate/Ninja/Assassin (I have assassins as spell-less). B.) Not trying to break the game. I don't mind you optimizing however, if you start breaking the game, I will break you. C.) Don't kill other party members (common sense, unless I put you as the villain [which can be any alignment]).
RobbyPants 07-13-07, 10:04 AM	I am pretty sure there is little incentive to multiclass out of a straight druid build...:P Very true. I had a player create a druid for the new game I started. It's the first one she's played since she started gaming with me several years ago. She asked for the Complete Divine and asked what other books might have useful stuff for druids. Then she asked me what a good PrC is for Druid. My answer was "Druid" *. :P I told her to feel free to make whatever character she thought she'd have fun with, but warned her that a PrC would probably weaken her. This was more of an instictive action for her, because in most games I run, the players always want to try out some PrC. It's bad enough to the point where they sometimes don't even think about it until 4th or 5th level, and then realize they can't qualify for anything cool until 8th or 10th level because they didn't plan the prereqs. I think I could have fun in a no PrC game. * I don't use Planar Sheperd
runestar 07-13-07, 10:12 AM	Where is this planar shepherd prc? I swear I just have to look it up one of these days, considering all the furor I have heard over it...:P
Sarella Starshine 07-13-07, 10:18 AM	The only time I acctually went PrC 'shopping' for a character, was when I decided that it would be fun to play a gnome fighter (the idea of one in full plate and a tower shield seemed rather fun). Knowing that fighters were 'weak', I went looking for a PrC to fit, alas, none I ran across would fit her style wise or character wise (not that many Sword and Shield PrC's that aren't ment for pallies, and I did not want to change her alignment from NG to LG just to qualify). Then the PHB2 came out and I was happy with her as a straight fighter :). (for the record, was not til late in the game we acctually had a cleric, so she was the only full-fledged tank, everyone else was mobility-centered melee classes.)
lastknightleft 07-13-07, 10:22 AM	hey, that's actually a good thing. My players are the same way and usually don't start getting into pre-reqs till 10th level or so. I could teach them to optimize, but I prefer the way they do it.
hiryuu 07-13-07, 10:27 AM	It works perfectly. PRESTIGE class is somethig SPECIAL that you cannot dominate better than your base abilities Ah. Okay. To our group, anything over level 5 is special, because one you get past level 5, you're dealing with people who, with the right skills, can make masterwork items with their eyes closed, run full tilt across one-inch wide beams strewn with marbles, and so on. Finding someone over level 5 is a rare accomplishment, getting there is even more rare, thus making the PCs more special. On another note, the world is blind to class. No one has "base abilities," they have a collection of powers related to what they do. It's probably a side effect of the way our group builds characters, coming up with concept and history first, then looking for classes to fill out the concept as the character grows, which is a bit backwards from going class first, then backstory. It means that you cannot say "I've the requisite, I take this prestige class" You have to comunicate me that you would like that prestige class and I will bring in the game the opportunity to train for that, becoming part of this secret group that know the secret of that class Ah, I see. Our group usually assumes that if you have a prestige class, you're probably the only person in the world to have it, and you might even be the first. That is, you can be a member of an assassin's guild, but none of them really have the assassin prestige class, since killing people for money doesn't require any special powers other than to be willing ot kill people for money. The PC who takes the assassin prestige class is the top in his field. He is the James Bond of assassins. That's how we make 'em special.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-13-07, 10:28 AM	I don't like PrCs in principle, and next game I run will have none. I do like plenty of base classes, however, so I've converted appropriate DMG PrCs to base classes. I may convert more, if I have players who want to play other archetypes, although there will never be a frenzied berserker or radiant servant of pelor base class :rolleyes:. If anyone quits or complains due to this style, I will finally and completely lose faith in the gaming, nay, the human community.
Manyfist 07-13-07, 10:42 AM	Where is this planar shepherd prc? I swear I just have to look it up one of these days, considering all the furor I have heard over it...:P Faiths of Eberron.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 07-13-07, 10:51 AM	Where is this planar shepherd prc? I swear I just have to look it up one of these days, considering all the furor I have heard over it...:P Don't do it runestar. It will burn your eyes. Remember when you saw tubgirl for the very first time? Same deal.
hiryuu 07-13-07, 11:00 AM	Don't do it runestar. It will burn your eyes. Remember when you saw tubgirl for the very first time? Same deal. It's horrible, but it's true.
sooperspook 07-13-07, 11:04 AM	My games Only core classes. Only ONE secondary class Prestige class not before 15th level character Prestige class cannot be higher level than none of your classes Prestige class will be role played What? So the only people in your game with 10 levels in a prestige class are Epic level? :eek: You do realise that the prestige classes are designed so that the level 10 ability(s) are roughly equivalent to those of a level 15 base class right?
Leilond 07-13-07, 11:06 AM	What? So the only people in your game with 10 levels in a prestige class are Epic level? :eek: You do realise that the prestige classes are designed so that the level 10 ability(s) are roughly equivalent to those of a level 15 base class right? Yes, I realize it
sooperspook 07-13-07, 11:09 AM	So why such incredibly hard restrictions? Whats the motivation for taking a class if your abilities are going to be about 10 levels behind anyone elses? Why not just ban them altogether? I really don't understand. :confused:
Leilond 07-13-07, 11:50 AM	Because we like the core games and we think that "prc" are only for realy super characters I'm not saying that it is good or not. There are people that forbit the PRC, I simply put some hard restriction on it I thought this was a "consulting thread" and not a "judgement thread" ;)
hiryuu 07-13-07, 12:02 PM	Because we like the core games and we think that "prc" are only for realy super characters I'm not saying that it is good or not. There are people that forbit the PRC, I simply put some hard restriction on it I thought this was a "consulting thread" and not a "judgement thread" ;) You're not bein' judged. We honestly don't understand where you're coming from, due to core's already unbalanced nature. Besides, if you don't want people to comment or ask questions, don't post.
Sunic_Flames 07-13-07, 03:09 PM	I allow my players to multiclass and PRC freely as long as it fits what they're aiming at and they meet the mechanical requirements. As classes are an abstraction of abilities, the fact the character sheet lists multiple martial/agile classes doesn't make the character any more or less of an agile hit and run type combatant. If it doesn't make any sense, I'm gonna raise an eyebrow but if the reasoning is sound allow it. If it's several things close together, then it's more of a natural flow. Like the several martial class example. My main rule is 'Don't be an idiot.' I can one up any and all of my players in powergaming, so overdoing it is not going to go well for them. Turnabout is fair play.
Bruunwald 07-13-07, 03:15 PM	When 3.0 came out, one of our more gung-ho players couldn't stop talking about prestige classes, offered to help everybody plan their characters out so that they could eventually take one, etc. Drove us all nuts. We just wanted to learn the new rules as fast as possible so we could continue our regularly-scheduled program. Anyway, here it is, seven years and another edition later, and that player has never actually played a prestige class of any kind, himself. He ended up multi-classing one character in that time, but never took on an actual prestige class. He is not alone. Though one or two of my other players have asked about a prestige class on occasion, they have all chosen to make due without. Multiclassing with a few weird classes from the Complete books has occurred, however. I think there are two main reasons for this. One is that it requires a lot of time and effort to get to where you can qualify for one, and that means a lot of time for people to change their minds, or their idea of who the character is. The other is that many see a "pure" character, that is, a single-class character, as overall being more powerful; being stretched less thin, so to speak. As DM, I have applied a few prestige classes to NPCs here and there. It never made for anything particularly memorable or outstanding, though. Nothing we ever did was something that could not have been done with the normal rules, in some other way.
IRememberCecil 07-13-07, 04:55 PM	Prestige classes are referred to as "another type of class" in my games. That's what they are and you can take as many as you want.
GhostStepper 07-13-07, 05:00 PM	On another note, the world is blind to class. No one has "base abilities," they have a collection of powers related to what they do. It's probably a side effect of the way our group builds characters, coming up with concept and history first, then looking for classes to fill out the concept as the character grows, which is a bit backwards from going class first, then backstory. This pretty much sums up my view of things. Id rather my players start with a concept and choose a bunch of classes that perfectly fit that concept than choose one class and try to fit their concept into those shoes. In the end, I think restricting multiclassing of any sort is pretty "metagamey" since no one in game knows if your a fighter or a warblade/rogue/dervish. Whether your have ability X or ability Y, the class names on your character sheet are irrelevant, including prestige classes, as long as you have a solid character concept.
Kensan_Oni 07-13-07, 06:20 PM	For the most part, most players in most games I've played don't play Prestige Classes. I know that me and one other player are an exception to this. Personally, I feel that Prestige Classes only hold appeal when it really matches a playing style that you want to play, or you want to do something that most of the time you just couldn't do with another class. That said, with the exception of the Shadowdancer, the power level of prestige classes tends to be equal to any multiclass character... or more specificly any character that intensily focuses on one trick. It can be fun, but most WOTC prestige classes don't break the game any more then the normal power creep does anyway.
devinmdp 07-13-07, 08:40 PM	I play with many PrC in my campaign, but I have evaluated each and every one and without any motivation to make them easy for PCs to join, I set forth role playing and realistic entry cirteria beyond the rules prereqs (I have a chart that does so). Most PrC require that a specific group admit you after you have proven your GENUINE dedication to join that group and STICK WITH IT. Others have no groups but require months or even years of study to enter. No one in my campaign takes PrCs lightly. They take them because their PCs were designed for them as a concept. My current campaign has: 1. Human Wizard 10/Incantatar 2 (concept - physically feeble wizard who specializes his studies) 2. Human Fighter 10 (loyal fighter) 3. Human Wizard 1/Rogue 11 (noble aristocrat with some minor magical training) 3. Elf Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 6 (elven mystic touched by the gods) 4. Human Barbarian 2/Rogue 3/Ranger 3/Fighter 4 (barbarian slave of the Empire, freed and now training as an Imperial soldier) 5. Elf Wizard 6/Mage of Arcane Order 6 (wizard member of a mage's guild) 6. Human Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 4 (exile from a tribe of desert nomads) So yes, there is some multiclassing, and some PrC, but still generally on the order of a tight set of choices that go in line with the PC concept. I tell my players that as far as I am concerned, I am under no obligation whatsoever to make a PrC easy or even possible for a PC to get into. They should consider it a bit of good fortune if they find one they can get into. PrCs are my tools as a DM for my NPCs for the most part, which is how they were originally introduced in 3.0 before someone at WOTC realized they could make money off of them. Devin
Artifact 07-13-07, 09:37 PM	I play in two seperate groups. The first group is myself and three other guys who I've gamed with for several years now. We are all experienced and swap DM duties regularly. Prestige classes are typically used in these games. The other group I DM for and includes myself and two less experienced players. The games I run so far, have tended to be of the "introductory" type, and I don't think these guys even realize what prestige classes are. Of course, I havent' felt the need to enlighten them just yet :smirk:. This campaign takes place in my own setting, in which prestige classes are entirely optional anyway. I have fun in both groups, and on occassion we game together. Both games seem to move along well, since the experienced players are confident and knowledgable enough to deal with "sticky" issues as they arise, while the newer players have an elegant answer for everything: "Attack!" (or "Retreat!" as the case may be). Multiclassing is common in both games, prolly more among the non-spellcaster types (such as Fighter/Rogue or Rogue/Barbarian-- we've got a few Conan clones running around in our campaign by Crom ;))!
Tealgorthian 07-14-07, 12:14 AM	My games Only core classes. Only ONE secondary class Prestige class not before 15th level character Prestige class cannot be higher level than none of your classes Prestige class will be role played That doesn't make them special.. it makes them sucky :\ You are taking them way after the levels they balanced for, which makes it crapactular. You'd be better off just banning them. I go with whatever my players want, and encourage them all to do whatever the consensus is, so that no one feels outshined, just because they desided to play a Fighter, and the other guy took 3 base classes and 2 PrCs, and is not only outdamaging the fighter, but is blowing stuff up too.
Pyke_Moonshadow 07-16-07, 07:53 AM	Few of my players ever take prestige classes and I haven't noticed an effect on the game except that fewer people multiclass. They seem to prefer the increased power of a straight class over the versitility of a multi. Of course, few of them play divine casters for some reason so at least I don't have to deal too heavily with the CoDzilla.
Leilond 07-16-07, 08:46 AM	That doesn't make them special.. it makes them sucky :\ You are taking them way after the levels they balanced for, which makes it crapactular. You'd be better off just banning them. Usually my players choose classes, PrC and other things because it fit the character concept, not becaus it is optimal... the character optimization isn't the first issue in their mind... thus multiclassing can be a nice choice, even if it is not the more effectiv... And I really cannot understand how can be "banning" them better than "limiting" them a lot. It's a matter of preferences, not a matter of "general rule"
Kursk 07-16-07, 12:07 PM	I was just wondering if there were any DMs or Players that play without PrCs. If so, how does the game differ for you? Are certain base classes seen more often? Is multiclassing common? DM and don't really use any except a couple campaign world specific ones (not from a book).
Tealgorthian 07-16-07, 12:22 PM	Usually my players choose classes, PrC and other things because it fit the character concept, not becaus it is optimal... the character optimization isn't the first issue in their mind... thus multiclassing can be a nice choice, even if it is not the more effectiv... And I really cannot understand how can be "banning" them better than "limiting" them a lot. It's a matter of preferences, not a matter of "general rule" You can do all that without a level limit, however. Think about this. This game has a roleplaying and a mechanical side. You can't separate the two. Assume you have a PrC that at first level has a power with a save. The PrC can have its first level taken at level 6. The designers assume that most people will have access to 3rd level spells at that level, so they set the DC at 13 + Ability Mod. Under your system, the PrC would be taken at 16th level, when most PCs have access to 8th level spells, which have a DC of 18 + Ability Mod. Do you see the problem here? You can accomplish what you want to without level limits. Hell, set them all up like the Monk and Paladin, where you must complete your training before taking levels in another class, or you can never take levels in the PrC again. Don't make the mechanics suck for the purpose of "enhancing" roleplaying. It doesn't do anything but penalize the PCs for taking a PrC to enhance their character.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 07-16-07, 01:03 PM	While I have yet to play a character that has taken levels in a PrC, I find nothing wrong with them.
Shiftkitty 07-16-07, 03:28 PM	I don't use PrCs that I know of. If a player wants his PC to be something special, he just starts developing his skills that way using logic and personal experience.