Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rien 04-17-05, 05:32 PM	Maybe some of you guys can shed a light on this, I have a player in my party who is an apostel of peace. I know an apostel of peace is against hurting anything living. That`s all clear. But on one session my fighter ask my AoP (who had ranks in survival) if there was any live game in the forrest in order to hunt and eat it. He said sure I`ll help you find it. At that point I stepped in and said that someone who plays such an exalted char was never going to let a party member knowingly hunt and kill an animal in order to eat it.. especially not if there is an alternative (barries for instance) He disagreed and sad..:"The rules don`t say anything about it and I`m not doing the killing and eating." I know I am the DM and I am going to enforce my ruling, I just wanted to know what your opinnion is. P.s. What about an AoP eating an animal who is already dead.. let`s say of old age.. ? Any Ideas ?
mhacdebhandia 04-17-05, 06:03 PM	At the end of the Special restrictions of the Vow of Peace feat (which is, obviously, a prerequisite for the apostle of peace prestige class), there's a reference to some characters with the Vow of Peace drinking water through a strainer so as not to cause harm to tiny insects by swallowing them. The reference is to the real-world religion of Jainism, an Indian faith whose members are known to wear masks across their nose and mouth to prevent them from inhaling small organisms and who walk with small brooms to sweep insects out of danger from their footfalls. Jains are strict vegetarians. Given that, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to argue that characters with the Vow of Peace would be required to maintain a vegetarian diet and to not assist other characters in hunting live game. Unlike the assertions made in the recent Vow of Peace thread, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that characters with this feat cannot harm normal plants - else it would be impossible to non-magically feed themselves.
Rien 04-18-05, 06:48 AM	That`s what I thought as well. His reply : Than I should leave the party because they eat meat.. You`r really nerving my char. My reply : You could try to convince the rest of the party that there is another.. "better" way than eating meat.. I haven`t even see you try it. About the plant thing : It is perfectly possible to be a vegatarian and not heart a plant. Eating berries for instance doesn`t hurt the plant. And the berry , although made of living tissue, is not a living creature itself.
CzarGarrett 04-18-05, 10:03 AM	I'd see it, if you really went into the vegetarianism bit, that a Vow of Peace would mean the character with the Vow wouldn't eat meat, and would subsist on magically created food and/or vegetables and fruits that do not kill the plant. However, this is what that character has chosen. It does not mean the character has to stop others from eating meat. Although I don't see the character helping to kill animals UNLESS people were starving.
Rien 04-18-05, 10:41 AM	I`m not saying that the AoP should stop all people from eating meat. But we are talking about his party memebrs.. people who he risks his live with.. his closest friends. Come on whe are talking about a fundamental belief system. ALL LIFE IS SACRED. He is not going to allow his party members to kill let alone eat other people, then why animals ? That`s also why I don`t think an AoP is going to kill a living creature just to save another.. even if one is an animal.
Lord Psilos 04-19-05, 05:14 AM	Not to mention that an AoP requires the feat "Vow of Poverty", which means by the time you have the prerequisites for the prestige class, you don't need ANY food. As for the other party members, you might think about taking "Craft: Preservation" or something like that. The ability to dry out fruits, nuts, and other vegetable matter to create a long-lasting ration for your party, so as not to worry about meat. Plus, doesn't survival mean you can find edible plants as well? Any excesses you can then dry out for future rations. That's what I'm doing, at least.
Andrew_980 05-01-05, 03:36 AM	actually Jainists are against killing anything, not even plants. they may only consume fruit and vegitables that can be gained without the death of a plant. they should have no problem with milk/cheese though. vegitarians are hippocrites, they just decide what is ok to kill but kill none the less, and many are against the eating of dairy that causes no death
ehrin 05-02-05, 07:10 PM	Eating fruits is just as much a taking of life as eating an egg is, perhaps more in many cases, because most eggs are not fertilized, and incapable of bearing life. Many fruits are themselves, or contain within or without themselves, the seeds of the next generation. Eat a strawberry, you are eating life.. a living, potentially growing plant (hundreds of them, actually). Same for peanuts, walnuts, grains, legumes, berries, etc.. In fact, if you wish to eat something that is not in violation of the "life" thing, you should eat leaves and stalks, and leave plenty on the plant for it to continue to grow. That is more akin to eating cheese and milk than eating berries is.
Andrew_980 05-03-05, 05:45 PM	actually most seeds are designed to be eaten and passed through an animals system before being left in a new, freshly fertilized spot far from the parent plant. unless you are making sure the seeds are destroyed you don't "kill" anything. eat alot of apples, pears, mangoes, ect that have big seeds or seeds in a part of the fruit that is not eaten and you don't need to fear even accidentally biting one and "killing" it
ehrin 05-04-05, 06:38 PM	By your logic, Andrew, most animals are "designed" to be killed and eaten too, so if you do not kill animals, you are going against their design. Eat a strawberry, eat a blueberry... seeds, and life, are destroyed. Your grinding teeth destroy thousands of life forms. Eat corn, or wheat, or rice... Those seeds are gone, never to continue their life, never to grow into the plant that is bound inside their cellular structure. Take the seeds, eat them, pass them, and place them in an environment where they cannot grow (bottom of a cesspit, hole in the ground, covered by sand in the desert), and you have still destroyed life... that seed COULD have grown into a plant, but you removed it from a healthy environment and left it to die in a hostile one. You are correct... Not all seeds are destroyed by any eating process. However, not all life is destroyed by hunting animals for food either, so once again, why is it okay to destroy plant life, and not animal, if all life is sacred?
Andrew_980 05-04-05, 06:51 PM	By your logic, Andrew, most animals are "designed" to be killed and eaten too, so if you do not kill animals, you are going against their design. the seeds ARE NOT HARMED read a bit on biology, this is how many plants spread Eat a strawberry, eat a blueberry... seeds, and life, are destroyed. Your grinding teeth destroy thousands of life forms. Eat corn, or wheat, or rice... Those seeds are gone, never to continue their life, never to grow into the plant that is bound inside their cellular structure that is why i said eat plants that do not invole cooking/breaking the seeds, such as apples, and not wheat and the like You are correct... Not all seeds are destroyed by any eating process. However, not all life is destroyed by hunting animals for food either, so once again, why is it okay to destroy plant life, and not animal, if all life is sacred? once agian, pay attention, eat an apple. no death at all.gently chew a strawberry, no death at all. eat cheese, no death at all.
ehrin 05-04-05, 09:14 PM	lol.. Andrew, i have a Masters Degree in Botany... i think i know a bit about plants. And yes indeed, seeds are harmed. SOME make it through the digestive systems, but not all. Those that don't are HARMED. Just like some animals make it through life, but not all. Some are harmed along the way. So, your arguement still falls apart... Life is destroyed in the digestive tracts of animals who eat fruits. Remember that your Apostle would have to carefully preserve the seeds of the fruits he eats, and place them in an environment that could potentially nurture them...no throwing in a fire, leaving on a rock, dropping into a stream, leaving in a privy. That's a lot of effort! If he simply eats the fruit, then tosses the core/pome away where the seeds dessicate and die, then he took life callously. Finally, I know that someone who eats only apples, pears, mangoes, etc. will develop some serious metabolic deficiencies. Humans need protein, and none of your plant/fruit sources (apples, pears, etc.) have those necessary amino acids and protein bases to supply them. Nuts do, but those are seeds that must be killed... Tofu does, as do some mushrooms, but again, you must destroy life to prepare those...
ehrin 05-04-05, 09:16 PM	Oh, and by the way: Eat cheese, there is death. Ever hear of the yeast and microbes that cause the cheese to harden, and give it flavor? Yup, unless you pick them out individually, they die. Heck, billions died in the process of making the cheese.
Cymraegmorgan 05-04-05, 10:11 PM	I`m not saying that the AoP should stop all people from eating meat. But we are talking about his party memebrs.. people who he risks his live with.. his closest friends. Come on whe are talking about a fundamental belief system. ALL LIFE IS SACRED. He is not going to allow his party members to kill let alone eat other people, then why animals ? That`s also why I don`t think an AoP is going to kill a living creature just to save another.. even if one is an animal. One would think that in a (in game) world where Create Food and Water is only a 3rd level spell, keeping a code of strict vegetarianism should be easy. Actually, once a cleric(since it is primarily their spell) reaches 5th level, he should no longer need to even harm plants to feed himself.
ehrin 05-04-05, 11:40 PM	Lol.. if you are going to create food magically, why bother being a vegetarian? Why not create steak...after all, no animals were harmed to make it any more than plants were harmed. I also wonder: what if you summon an animal, then butcher it... will it disappear when the spell is over? Is it really "alive" when you summon it?
Melpomene 05-05-05, 12:01 AM	People, please, no clapping. Every time you clap your hands, you kill hundreds of airborn mold spores. Just give a mold-friendly thumbs up.
Callista 05-05-05, 04:00 AM	Yes, there's nothing wrong with summoning a steak via Create spells... Re. Apostle of Peace in parties: I'm of the opinion that the Exalted character does not have to hold others to their vows, even if they are Lawful. So that Apostle of Peace should attempt to influence others by example, rather than trying to force his party members to live like he does. After all, enforced holiness is not holiness at all...
ehrin 05-05-05, 03:31 PM	It should also be pointed out that Jainists are simple vegetarians, not frutarians. They avoid some plant parts because those plants/parts house living animal organisms, but they would eat a carrot or a beet or lettuce or rice or corn, etc, and kill the plant. There is nothing in their religion that forbids them from it. Jainists consider plants to be "one-sense" organisms, and therefore, edible. They regret it, but determine it necessary for their survival. (from the Jainist INformation Website).
Cymraegmorgan 05-08-05, 08:37 AM	Lol.. if you are going to create food magically, why bother being a vegetarian? Why not create steak...after all, no animals were harmed to make it any more than plants were harmed. Exactly. Magic makes mealtime moral choices really easy.
Rien 05-11-05, 06:39 PM	Re. Apostle of Peace in parties: I'm of the opinion that the Exalted character does not have to hold others to their vows, even if they are Lawful. So that Apostle of Peace should attempt to influence others by example, rather than trying to force his party members to live like he does. After all, enforced holiness is not holiness at all... I’m Not saying he should force his friends not to eat animals I’m just saying from a Role-playing perspective he should at least have tried to convince them that there is another way.
whatevr 05-17-05, 03:16 PM	Everyone! Don't breath! Your killing thousands of germs!
ehrin 05-17-05, 07:53 PM	problem is, you are also killing thousands if you don't breathe. What about all those accidentally trapped in your lungs and nasal cilia, hoping to get out and reproduce? What about those spores and microbes that are looking to get away from parents, and into new organisms. if you don't breathe, how can they get a chance to grow?
Ogre4Hire 05-19-05, 09:15 PM	If you don't breathe and you die, what's going to happen to all those innocent bacteria happily dwelling in your digestive system? Actually, what's going to happen to them if you take VoP and stop eating?
codexia 05-21-05, 02:18 PM	My god am I glad my DM isn't as [edit] a-nal as worrying about microscopic organisms >.> Would be way to much trouble to play AoP, lol. Supposed to be a game, supposed to be fun, not an excersise in worrying about ANYTHING you do before you ever get to take an action...which would make the game suck and be no more fun. Anyway, I had a few points to post, but after reading through the thread...most of them became void. Especially the ability to magically create steak to avoid the killing part :P [edit] cant believe a-nal is censored >_< in the mature thread no less
Error 401 05-26-05, 05:25 AM	Yeah, but this is an Exalted character we're talking about. Exalted stuff, Vow of Poverty for instance, Apostle of Peace too, gives significant powers in exchange for significant sacrifices and codes. If you don't want to do stuff that's inconvenient, then just be Good, not Exalted. I'm not saying he can't breath, although by now he might not need to - doesn't VoP grant that? But, he definitely shouldn't go hunting animals, and he should try to convince, although not force, his friends to do the same. I mean, you wouldn't allow a Good character to keep his alignment if he went along with hunting people just because his party was doing it would you? Exalted characters have stricter codes.