archer loopholes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

archer loopholes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Deadmeat3344
04-21-06, 05:24 PM K like, we have this arcane archer in our epic

campaign
(lvl 29) ranger/archer/fighter/oath bow

Feats : weapon focus longbow, imp resice shot, imp manyshot, imp rapid shoy, storm of arrows, improved crit, ranged disarm, karmic strike, combat reflxes/expertise.

He can somehow do a max damage of 2000. His bow does 1d8+ 3d10 (how?) +15. crit range 20 x3 + 2 d10

We are conviced that he is powergaming, as his charcter is servelry broekn compared to eveyone else in our campaign.
Board_Rider
04-21-06, 06:59 PM Well, if this is real (and I doubt it), he is simply cheating. What "archer" clas is he?

Tell the DM to look over the character sheet. Something is not right and he needs to find it. Could be as simple as cheaing or the guy really doesn't know his math.

I would begin at level 1, core only...that will work.
Zherog
04-22-06, 09:49 AM Karmic Strike grants you an Attack of Opportunity when somebody attempts to hit you in melee and misses. You can't make AoOs with a ranged weapon - of course, you're playing epic, so who knows what goofy brokenness exists.

Combat Reflexes grants you extra attacks of opportunity. But if you can't take them, it doesn't mean diddly.

His bow does 1d8+ 3d10 (how?) +15. crit range 20 x3 + 2 d10

The 2d10 on a crit is likely from a burst weapon. I don't know of any way to get a d10 bonus damage - let alone 3d10 - without using the bonus from a burst.

One thing he's probably doing - he's probably using Improved Manyshot and combining it with a full attack. That is, he's likely taking all his BAB attacks, and making each one a Manyshot. It doesn't work that way. You either use (Improved) Manyshot, or you use your full attack. Not both combined.
Darkxarth
04-22-06, 10:21 AM K like, we have this arcane archer in our epic

campaign
(lvl 29) ranger/archer/fighter/oath bow

Feats : weapon focus longbow, imp resice shot, imp manyshot, imp rapid shoy, storm of arrows, improved crit, ranged disarm, karmic strike, combat reflxes/expertise.

He can somehow do a max damage of 2000. His bow does 1d8+ 3d10 (how?) +15. crit range 20 x3 + 2 d10

We are conviced that he is powergaming, as his charcter is servelry broekn compared to eveyone else in our campaign.
Wait, two thousand damage?!?! Holy smokes! Did you mean two hundred damage?

Well, either way, I can't see how he could 2000. I mean, 1d8 (max 8) + 3d10 (max 30) + 15 x3 + 2d10 (max 20) all times five for all base attacks and an attack of opportunity, that would be; [(8+30+15)x3+20]x5=895. Well, higher than I thought, but still no 2000.

And, does Oath Bow, mean he has an Oathbow, or that he is an Initiate of the Bow. (I think that's right, it's from the Complete Warrior.)
Seeker95
04-22-06, 10:46 AM :rofl: You're playing in an epic campaign, and you're concerned about balance?
That said, either he's cheatng, or you're mis-reporting, or both.
caeruleus
04-22-06, 02:07 PM Did you say he's an arcane archer? Don't you need at least one level in an arcane spellcasting class to be an arcane archer? There's some cheating right there.
Tempest Stormwind
04-22-06, 02:40 PM 1) He's cheating.

2) Archers are not to be underestimated (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183604) even if you aren't cheating.

3) Arcane Archer is weak.

4) It's an epic game. As soon as any of your spellcasters discovers Epic Spellcasting and/or the Epic Leadership feat (note that Fortify can boost your Charisma and that Epic Leadership's followers can be spellcasters for ritual casting), all bets are off and no one but the casters will be able to do ANYTHING of value.
Zherog
04-22-06, 02:47 PM Wait, two thousand damage?!?! Holy smokes! Did you mean two hundred damage?

Well, either way, I can't see how he could 2000. I mean, 1d8 (max 8) + 3d10 (max 30) + 15 x3 + 2d10 (max 20) all times five for all base attacks and an attack of opportunity, that would be; [(8+30+15)x3+20]x5=895. Well, higher than I thought, but still no 2000.

If you do Manyshot wrong - shoot 5 arrows with each of your attacks - and do average damage, you'd do 180 per BAB point on a non-crit, which would work out to 905 on an incorrectly done full attack. Score one crit in there and the damage jumps to 221 per point of BAB, and 1105 on an incorrectly done full attack.

Still not 2000 - but that's only average damage, and that doesn't include any AoO.

And that relies on using Manyshot incorrectly (which is my guess for one of your myriad of problems).
Lotus Crane
04-22-06, 02:54 PM Deadmeat has posted the same or similiar "questions" on the Prestige Classes (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626000), Skills and Feats (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626001), Equipment and Combat (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626002), and General (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626004) boards. He's definately spamming, and he may be committing a mild form of flaming, through asking a rhetorical/sarcastic/inane question about an impossible combination of feats, weapon properties, and PrCs (the character in question isn't even qualified for Arcane Archer). We should probably stop taking him seriously.
On the 1% chance though that this is in fact a legitimate question about an actual campaign being played, some answers for Deadmeat:
1) Manyshot is a separate and unique standard action, not a regular attack, so a character can not make a full attack (with or without Rapid Shot) to make 4-7 manyshots, nor can he combine Manyshot with Storm of Arrows. That means that no, he cannot actually fire 16-42 arrows per round, only 4-7.
2) "Max damage" is less important than average damage; after all, the character has just as much of a chance of rolling minimum damage. In most cases, average damage is roughly a little above half of maximum damage.
3) Karmic Strike only works in melee, not ranged combat, so I don't even know why that's part of the build.
4) Assuming your question is real, this campaign is real, and another player is actually trying to play this character, he is not "powergaming," he is blatantly cheating and taking advantage of a DM who isn't reading and/or interpretting the rules correctly. "Powergaming" is a legitimate and normal process that we all do to a certain extent; that character simply isn't possible.
5) It's an epic game anyway, so it's probably a mistake to expect anything resembling balance.
Zherog
04-22-06, 09:29 PM 3) Karmic Strike only works in melee, not ranged combat, so I don't even know why that's part of the build.

Not necessarily. If you have the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon (there's a few ways to do it) it could conceivably work. Nothing about Karmic Strike says your AoO must be a melee attack; it simply says you must be attacked in melee, and the attack must miss.

*shrug*
Lotus Crane
04-23-06, 01:39 AM Not necessarily. If you have the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon (there's a few ways to do it) it could conceivably work. Nothing about Karmic Strike says your AoO must be a melee attack; it simply says you must be attacked in melee, and the attack must miss.
Actually, Karmic Strike says the attack against you must be successful, not miss you. But I suppose if you can make a ranged AoO (probably through a PrC), then you could make a ranged Karmic Strike.
WizO_Cat
04-23-06, 05:33 PM Board policy restricts post the same thread to up to two boards. Thus, we'll close this thread at this time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deadmeat3344 04-21-06, 05:24 PM	K like, we have this arcane archer in our epic campaign (lvl 29) ranger/archer/fighter/oath bow Feats : weapon focus longbow, imp resice shot, imp manyshot, imp rapid shoy, storm of arrows, improved crit, ranged disarm, karmic strike, combat reflxes/expertise. He can somehow do a max damage of 2000. His bow does 1d8+ 3d10 (how?) +15. crit range 20 x3 + 2 d10 We are conviced that he is powergaming, as his charcter is servelry broekn compared to eveyone else in our campaign.
Board_Rider 04-21-06, 06:59 PM	Well, if this is real (and I doubt it), he is simply cheating. What "archer" clas is he? Tell the DM to look over the character sheet. Something is not right and he needs to find it. Could be as simple as cheaing or the guy really doesn't know his math. I would begin at level 1, core only...that will work.
Zherog 04-22-06, 09:49 AM	Karmic Strike grants you an Attack of Opportunity when somebody attempts to hit you in melee and misses. You can't make AoOs with a ranged weapon - of course, you're playing epic, so who knows what goofy brokenness exists. Combat Reflexes grants you extra attacks of opportunity. But if you can't take them, it doesn't mean diddly. His bow does 1d8+ 3d10 (how?) +15. crit range 20 x3 + 2 d10 The 2d10 on a crit is likely from a burst weapon. I don't know of any way to get a d10 bonus damage - let alone 3d10 - without using the bonus from a burst. One thing he's probably doing - he's probably using Improved Manyshot and combining it with a full attack. That is, he's likely taking all his BAB attacks, and making each one a Manyshot. It doesn't work that way. You either use (Improved) Manyshot, or you use your full attack. Not both combined.
Darkxarth 04-22-06, 10:21 AM	K like, we have this arcane archer in our epic campaign (lvl 29) ranger/archer/fighter/oath bow Feats : weapon focus longbow, imp resice shot, imp manyshot, imp rapid shoy, storm of arrows, improved crit, ranged disarm, karmic strike, combat reflxes/expertise. He can somehow do a max damage of 2000. His bow does 1d8+ 3d10 (how?) +15. crit range 20 x3 + 2 d10 We are conviced that he is powergaming, as his charcter is servelry broekn compared to eveyone else in our campaign. Wait, two thousand damage?!?! Holy smokes! Did you mean two hundred damage? Well, either way, I can't see how he could 2000. I mean, 1d8 (max 8) + 3d10 (max 30) + 15 x3 + 2d10 (max 20) all times five for all base attacks and an attack of opportunity, that would be; [(8+30+15)x3+20]x5=895. Well, higher than I thought, but still no 2000. And, does Oath Bow, mean he has an Oathbow, or that he is an Initiate of the Bow. (I think that's right, it's from the Complete Warrior.)
Seeker95 04-22-06, 10:46 AM	:rofl: You're playing in an epic campaign, and you're concerned about balance? That said, either he's cheatng, or you're mis-reporting, or both.
caeruleus 04-22-06, 02:07 PM	Did you say he's an arcane archer? Don't you need at least one level in an arcane spellcasting class to be an arcane archer? There's some cheating right there.
Tempest Stormwind 04-22-06, 02:40 PM	1) He's cheating. 2) Archers are not to be underestimated (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183604) even if you aren't cheating. 3) Arcane Archer is weak. 4) It's an epic game. As soon as any of your spellcasters discovers Epic Spellcasting and/or the Epic Leadership feat (note that Fortify can boost your Charisma and that Epic Leadership's followers can be spellcasters for ritual casting), all bets are off and no one but the casters will be able to do ANYTHING of value.
Zherog 04-22-06, 02:47 PM	Wait, two thousand damage?!?! Holy smokes! Did you mean two hundred damage? Well, either way, I can't see how he could 2000. I mean, 1d8 (max 8) + 3d10 (max 30) + 15 x3 + 2d10 (max 20) all times five for all base attacks and an attack of opportunity, that would be; [(8+30+15)x3+20]x5=895. Well, higher than I thought, but still no 2000. If you do Manyshot wrong - shoot 5 arrows with each of your attacks - and do average damage, you'd do 180 per BAB point on a non-crit, which would work out to 905 on an incorrectly done full attack. Score one crit in there and the damage jumps to 221 per point of BAB, and 1105 on an incorrectly done full attack. Still not 2000 - but that's only average damage, and that doesn't include any AoO. And that relies on using Manyshot incorrectly (which is my guess for one of your myriad of problems).
Lotus Crane 04-22-06, 02:54 PM	Deadmeat has posted the same or similiar "questions" on the Prestige Classes (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626000), Skills and Feats (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626001), Equipment and Combat (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626002), and General (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626004) boards. He's definately spamming, and he may be committing a mild form of flaming, through asking a rhetorical/sarcastic/inane question about an impossible combination of feats, weapon properties, and PrCs (the character in question isn't even qualified for Arcane Archer). We should probably stop taking him seriously. On the 1% chance though that this is in fact a legitimate question about an actual campaign being played, some answers for Deadmeat: 1) Manyshot is a separate and unique standard action, not a regular attack, so a character can not make a full attack (with or without Rapid Shot) to make 4-7 manyshots, nor can he combine Manyshot with Storm of Arrows. That means that no, he cannot actually fire 16-42 arrows per round, only 4-7. 2) "Max damage" is less important than average damage; after all, the character has just as much of a chance of rolling minimum damage. In most cases, average damage is roughly a little above half of maximum damage. 3) Karmic Strike only works in melee, not ranged combat, so I don't even know why that's part of the build. 4) Assuming your question is real, this campaign is real, and another player is actually trying to play this character, he is not "powergaming," he is blatantly cheating and taking advantage of a DM who isn't reading and/or interpretting the rules correctly. "Powergaming" is a legitimate and normal process that we all do to a certain extent; that character simply isn't possible. 5) It's an epic game anyway, so it's probably a mistake to expect anything resembling balance.
Zherog 04-22-06, 09:29 PM	3) Karmic Strike only works in melee, not ranged combat, so I don't even know why that's part of the build. Not necessarily. If you have the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon (there's a few ways to do it) it could conceivably work. Nothing about Karmic Strike says your AoO must be a melee attack; it simply says you must be attacked in melee, and the attack must miss. shrug
Lotus Crane 04-23-06, 01:39 AM	Not necessarily. If you have the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon (there's a few ways to do it) it could conceivably work. Nothing about Karmic Strike says your AoO must be a melee attack; it simply says you must be attacked in melee, and the attack must miss. Actually, Karmic Strike says the attack against you must be successful, not miss you. But I suppose if you can make a ranged AoO (probably through a PrC), then you could make a ranged Karmic Strike.
WizO_Cat 04-23-06, 05:33 PM	Board policy restricts post the same thread to up to two boards. Thus, we'll close this thread at this time.