archers in melee query [Archive] - Wizards Community

archers in melee query [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nath
03-06-07, 02:20 PM Hello,

The following came up in a play session recently.

Melee creature A charges character B who is holding a bow, attacks and misses.

B's then comes round.

My group say that B could take a 5 foot step back and shoot A, without triggering any penalty or attacks of opportunity.

A then moves up and attacks again. B then steps back 5 feet and shoots again. Effectively B is using a bow in melee with no penalty whatsoever. Having done real combat, this feels completely wrong.

Any suggestions? Is my group reading the rules correctly?
Puca
03-06-07, 02:22 PM Yes, they are.
He is not using a bow in melee. He is using a legitimate move to get out of melee so he can safely use his bow.
CharlieRock
03-06-07, 02:25 PM use maps more. the ol' "I'll step back 5 feet every round" tactic doesn't happen that often when obstacles start to surround in on them.
I know what you mean, that kind of thing bugs the mess out of me too.
gorckat
03-06-07, 02:27 PM Critters with a 10ft Reach/Weapon still get to take a swipe on the move and the shot, don't they?
Fencerboy
03-06-07, 02:27 PM This seems more like a matter of opinion.

Off the top of my head, I thought there were rules on this. A (very) quick look at my PHB didn't help.
Page 140 of the PHB states that a character can make a ranged attack at anyone within the range, provided they aren't engaged in melee with a friendly character. If they are, the shooter takes a -4 penalty on the attack.
The Precise Shot feat negates the -4 penalty, but other than that, I can find no other rules, so I would say IMO the RAW state that it is legal.
DaidojiTaidoru
03-06-07, 02:28 PM Because it had to get linked eventually. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)
Fencerboy
03-06-07, 02:29 PM DANG!!!
Everyone beat me...

I gave the longest and most boring enterpretation though!!
CharlieRock
03-06-07, 02:31 PM Critters with a 10ft Reach/Weapon still get to take a swipe on the move and the shot, don't they?
yeah
:cool:
Palomides
03-06-07, 02:32 PM They are reading the rule correctly.

Things you can do is have monster with a reach greater than 5, so that you still threaten the archer.

another thing is to do a ready (or delay, not sure which one) action to do the same (ie 5 ft step attack and be ready to do an AoO if he attacks.
Fencerboy
03-06-07, 02:32 PM Because it had to get linked eventually. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)

What does this have to do with the subject? Not much...

Its still funny though, I've linked it at a few spiked chain threads...

Edit: I see now, I forgot about tthat post...
Puca
03-06-07, 02:35 PM Critters with a 10ft Reach/Weapon still get to take a swipe on the move and the shot, don't they?
If you threaten the square from which they fire the arrow, as someone with reach probaly would, you get the AoO. You do not get an AoO on the move, as a 5' step does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
Nath
03-06-07, 02:37 PM thanks for the quicky reply people. I thought this was a correct reading, even if it feels wrong.

another thing is to do a ready (or delay, not sure which one) action to do the same (ie 5 ft step attack and be ready to do an AoO if he attacks.

That's the point I was looking for - so there is a way for the melee attacker to to take advantage of this and get an AoE for each ranged shot.
Solik
03-06-07, 02:38 PM Have the attacker enter the archer's square.

He won't provoke an AoO because the archer is wielding a bow.

EDIT: Nevermind, that won't work unless the opponent is helpless according to the SRD. That's weird, though, because you enter the square and stay there to grapple... ohwell, grapple the archer then.
Fencerboy
03-06-07, 02:42 PM Have the attacker enter the archer's square.

He won't provoke an AoO because the archer is wielding a bow.

EDIT: Nevermind, that won't work unless the opponent is helpless according to the SRD. That's weird, though, because you enter the square and stay there to grapple... ohwell, grapple the archer then.

Lol, Ogre archer and Gnome melee character...
CharlieRock
03-06-07, 02:43 PM Have the attacker enter the archer's square.

He won't provoke an AoO because the archer is wielding a bow.

EDIT: Nevermind, that won't work unless the opponent is helpless according to the SRD. That's weird, though, because you enter the square and stay there to grapple... ohwell, grapple the archer then.
If that bow wielder wants to dump his bow off and Quick Draw a melee weapon. Otherwise unarmed attacks from the bow wielder (including grapple) will net an AoO on him.
Either way you ain't worrying about his bow till next round (or longer if he dumped it off).
Palomides
03-06-07, 02:45 PM I was thinking that maybe breaking the bow with a sunder attack, but I'm not familiar with that and reading the rule seems to weird to me.

Anyone care to explain how it is suppose to work against a bow ?
Fencerboy
03-06-07, 02:47 PM A projectile weapon such as a bow has hardness 5 and hp 5.

And sundering provokes AoOs, but not with the bow...
Solik
03-06-07, 02:47 PM My guess is that you treat a bow like a carried object instead of a weapon, unless the bow is specially modified for melee use (such as a crossbow with one of those bayonet things from Complete Scoundrel). That means no opposed attack rolls, which means you're really likely to sunder the thing.
CharlieRock
03-06-07, 02:48 PM That's the point I was looking for - so there is a way for the melee attacker to to take advantage of this and get an AoE for each ranged shot.
There's all sorts of manuevers against this: trip, disarm, sunder his bow (that'll get his jaw to drop). Oft times these get you an AoO ,but solved when you get a feat for it (improved trip ,etc.)
CharlieRock
03-06-07, 02:50 PM A projectile weapon such as a bow has hardness 5 and hp 5.

And sundering provokes AoOs, but not with the bow...
right, so either they dump it off, or give themselves an attack of O for taking a bare fisted swipe at ya.
I just remembered, the melee guy isn't going to get any AoOs against him for moving up to the archer because 5' step gives no AoO.
Solik
03-06-07, 02:52 PM He's not going to draw an AoO from the sunder attempt either, unless the archer has Improved Unarmed Strike or a melee-capable ranged weapon.
Kradlo
03-06-07, 03:19 PM The 5-foot step and fire is a common tactic for ranged combatants. There are any number of ways to deal with it.

Back the bowman up to a wall or cliff edge. His 5-foot step won't put him out of reach.

Sunder his bow. Bows have low hardness and poor hit points, so it's not hard to sunder them. You won't provoke an AoO, because he doesn't threaten the space around him while holding a missile weapon. Exceptions noted: if he's wearing spiked armor, has Improved Unarmed Strike, or has a missile weapon that is melee capable (a bayonet from Complete Scoundrel on a crossbow, for example).

Grapple the bowman. Again, no AoO, and he sure can't shoot you while you're twisting him into a pretzel.

Readying an attack sounds like it should work, but it is a bit tricky, and here's why.

Round 1, Init 16: Axe wielder A moves to attack bowman B.
Round 1, Init 15: B takes a 5-foot step back and shoots at A.
Round 2, Init 16: A moves next to B, and readies an attack on B if he shoots.
Round 2, Init 15: B takes another 5-foot step back to shoot. A's readied action is triggered, but A cannot take a 5-foot step because he's already moved in the round. Thus, his action is lost, and B shoots him.

Now, doing this with a reach weapon, like a guisarme, combined with armor spikes (to threaten adjacent squares) works just fine. Or, the ubiquitous spiked chain.
Fencerboy
03-06-07, 03:25 PM Back the bowman up to a wall or cliff edge. His 5-foot step won't put him out of reach.

Refer to OotS link earlier in thread...

Sunder his bow. Bows have low hardness and poor hit points, so it's not hard to sunder them. You won't provoke an AoO, because he doesn't threaten the space around him while holding a missile weapon. Exceptions noted: if he's wearing spiked armor, has Improved Unarmed Strike, or has a missile weapon that is melee capable (a bayonet from Complete Scoundrel on a crossbow, for example).

Already discussed slightly, and he also threatens if he is a monk.
gorckat
03-06-07, 04:08 PM You do not get an AoO on the move, as a 5' step does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity.

I know the move out of a threatened square doesn't provoke, but doesn't ending up in a threatened square provoke (assuming the 10 ft reach)?
Puca
03-06-07, 04:21 PM No entering a square does not provoke an AoO. Only leaving one.
gorckat
03-06-07, 04:35 PM Gotcha
CharlieRock
03-06-07, 05:33 PM Exceptions noted: if he's wearing spiked armor, has Improved Unarmed Strike, or has a missile weapon that is melee capable (a bayonet from Complete Scoundrel on a crossbow, for example).

Grapple the bowman. Again, no AoO, and he sure can't shoot you while you're twisting him into a pretzel.

Now, doing this with a reach weapon, like a guisarme, combined with armor spikes (to threaten adjacent squares) works just fine. Or, the ubiquitous spiked chain.
Spiked armor only works for grapples though ,right? So ,unless they have improved it with a feat, using spiked armor for an AoO justs gets you hit with an (pre-emptive?) AoO.

I use a feat for polearms that let you switch grips on them to threaten the 5' square or the 10' out square. Works like quickdraw for polearms... except you can't switch back until your next turn. :)
Solik
03-06-07, 08:22 PM By the way, tripping is another possibility. Like Sunder, you don't have to worry about AoO for the most part, and it'll take an action for the archer to stand back up. I guess he could lie there and shoot at you, but boy is that ever a bad idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nath 03-06-07, 02:20 PM	Hello, The following came up in a play session recently. Melee creature A charges character B who is holding a bow, attacks and misses. B's then comes round. My group say that B could take a 5 foot step back and shoot A, without triggering any penalty or attacks of opportunity. A then moves up and attacks again. B then steps back 5 feet and shoots again. Effectively B is using a bow in melee with no penalty whatsoever. Having done real combat, this feels completely wrong. Any suggestions? Is my group reading the rules correctly?
Puca 03-06-07, 02:22 PM	Yes, they are. He is not using a bow in melee. He is using a legitimate move to get out of melee so he can safely use his bow.
CharlieRock 03-06-07, 02:25 PM	use maps more. the ol' "I'll step back 5 feet every round" tactic doesn't happen that often when obstacles start to surround in on them. I know what you mean, that kind of thing bugs the mess out of me too.
gorckat 03-06-07, 02:27 PM	Critters with a 10ft Reach/Weapon still get to take a swipe on the move and the shot, don't they?
Fencerboy 03-06-07, 02:27 PM	This seems more like a matter of opinion. Off the top of my head, I thought there were rules on this. A (very) quick look at my PHB didn't help. Page 140 of the PHB states that a character can make a ranged attack at anyone within the range, provided they aren't engaged in melee with a friendly character. If they are, the shooter takes a -4 penalty on the attack. The Precise Shot feat negates the -4 penalty, but other than that, I can find no other rules, so I would say IMO the RAW state that it is legal.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-06-07, 02:28 PM	Because it had to get linked eventually. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)
Fencerboy 03-06-07, 02:29 PM	DANG!!! Everyone beat me... I gave the longest and most boring enterpretation though!!
CharlieRock 03-06-07, 02:31 PM	Critters with a 10ft Reach/Weapon still get to take a swipe on the move and the shot, don't they? yeah :cool:
Palomides 03-06-07, 02:32 PM	They are reading the rule correctly. Things you can do is have monster with a reach greater than 5, so that you still threaten the archer. another thing is to do a ready (or delay, not sure which one) action to do the same (ie 5 ft step attack and be ready to do an AoO if he attacks.
Fencerboy 03-06-07, 02:32 PM	Because it had to get linked eventually. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) What does this have to do with the subject? Not much... Its still funny though, I've linked it at a few spiked chain threads... Edit: I see now, I forgot about tthat post...
Puca 03-06-07, 02:35 PM	Critters with a 10ft Reach/Weapon still get to take a swipe on the move and the shot, don't they? If you threaten the square from which they fire the arrow, as someone with reach probaly would, you get the AoO. You do not get an AoO on the move, as a 5' step does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
Nath 03-06-07, 02:37 PM	thanks for the quicky reply people. I thought this was a correct reading, even if it feels wrong. another thing is to do a ready (or delay, not sure which one) action to do the same (ie 5 ft step attack and be ready to do an AoO if he attacks. That's the point I was looking for - so there is a way for the melee attacker to to take advantage of this and get an AoE for each ranged shot.
Solik 03-06-07, 02:38 PM	Have the attacker enter the archer's square. He won't provoke an AoO because the archer is wielding a bow. EDIT: Nevermind, that won't work unless the opponent is helpless according to the SRD. That's weird, though, because you enter the square and stay there to grapple... ohwell, grapple the archer then.
Fencerboy 03-06-07, 02:42 PM	Have the attacker enter the archer's square. He won't provoke an AoO because the archer is wielding a bow. EDIT: Nevermind, that won't work unless the opponent is helpless according to the SRD. That's weird, though, because you enter the square and stay there to grapple... ohwell, grapple the archer then. Lol, Ogre archer and Gnome melee character...
CharlieRock 03-06-07, 02:43 PM	Have the attacker enter the archer's square. He won't provoke an AoO because the archer is wielding a bow. EDIT: Nevermind, that won't work unless the opponent is helpless according to the SRD. That's weird, though, because you enter the square and stay there to grapple... ohwell, grapple the archer then. If that bow wielder wants to dump his bow off and Quick Draw a melee weapon. Otherwise unarmed attacks from the bow wielder (including grapple) will net an AoO on him. Either way you ain't worrying about his bow till next round (or longer if he dumped it off).
Palomides 03-06-07, 02:45 PM	I was thinking that maybe breaking the bow with a sunder attack, but I'm not familiar with that and reading the rule seems to weird to me. Anyone care to explain how it is suppose to work against a bow ?
Fencerboy 03-06-07, 02:47 PM	A projectile weapon such as a bow has hardness 5 and hp 5. And sundering provokes AoOs, but not with the bow...
Solik 03-06-07, 02:47 PM	My guess is that you treat a bow like a carried object instead of a weapon, unless the bow is specially modified for melee use (such as a crossbow with one of those bayonet things from Complete Scoundrel). That means no opposed attack rolls, which means you're really likely to sunder the thing.
CharlieRock 03-06-07, 02:48 PM	That's the point I was looking for - so there is a way for the melee attacker to to take advantage of this and get an AoE for each ranged shot. There's all sorts of manuevers against this: trip, disarm, sunder his bow (that'll get his jaw to drop). Oft times these get you an AoO ,but solved when you get a feat for it (improved trip ,etc.)
CharlieRock 03-06-07, 02:50 PM	A projectile weapon such as a bow has hardness 5 and hp 5. And sundering provokes AoOs, but not with the bow... right, so either they dump it off, or give themselves an attack of O for taking a bare fisted swipe at ya. I just remembered, the melee guy isn't going to get any AoOs against him for moving up to the archer because 5' step gives no AoO.
Solik 03-06-07, 02:52 PM	He's not going to draw an AoO from the sunder attempt either, unless the archer has Improved Unarmed Strike or a melee-capable ranged weapon.
Kradlo 03-06-07, 03:19 PM	The 5-foot step and fire is a common tactic for ranged combatants. There are any number of ways to deal with it. Back the bowman up to a wall or cliff edge. His 5-foot step won't put him out of reach. Sunder his bow. Bows have low hardness and poor hit points, so it's not hard to sunder them. You won't provoke an AoO, because he doesn't threaten the space around him while holding a missile weapon. Exceptions noted: if he's wearing spiked armor, has Improved Unarmed Strike, or has a missile weapon that is melee capable (a bayonet from Complete Scoundrel on a crossbow, for example). Grapple the bowman. Again, no AoO, and he sure can't shoot you while you're twisting him into a pretzel. Readying an attack sounds like it should work, but it is a bit tricky, and here's why. Round 1, Init 16: Axe wielder A moves to attack bowman B. Round 1, Init 15: B takes a 5-foot step back and shoots at A. Round 2, Init 16: A moves next to B, and readies an attack on B if he shoots. Round 2, Init 15: B takes another 5-foot step back to shoot. A's readied action is triggered, but A cannot take a 5-foot step because he's already moved in the round. Thus, his action is lost, and B shoots him. Now, doing this with a reach weapon, like a guisarme, combined with armor spikes (to threaten adjacent squares) works just fine. Or, the ubiquitous spiked chain.
Fencerboy 03-06-07, 03:25 PM	Back the bowman up to a wall or cliff edge. His 5-foot step won't put him out of reach. Refer to OotS link earlier in thread... Sunder his bow. Bows have low hardness and poor hit points, so it's not hard to sunder them. You won't provoke an AoO, because he doesn't threaten the space around him while holding a missile weapon. Exceptions noted: if he's wearing spiked armor, has Improved Unarmed Strike, or has a missile weapon that is melee capable (a bayonet from Complete Scoundrel on a crossbow, for example). Already discussed slightly, and he also threatens if he is a monk.
gorckat 03-06-07, 04:08 PM	You do not get an AoO on the move, as a 5' step does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. I know the move out of a threatened square doesn't provoke, but doesn't ending up in a threatened square provoke (assuming the 10 ft reach)?
Puca 03-06-07, 04:21 PM	No entering a square does not provoke an AoO. Only leaving one.
gorckat 03-06-07, 04:35 PM	Gotcha
CharlieRock 03-06-07, 05:33 PM	Exceptions noted: if he's wearing spiked armor, has Improved Unarmed Strike, or has a missile weapon that is melee capable (a bayonet from Complete Scoundrel on a crossbow, for example). Grapple the bowman. Again, no AoO, and he sure can't shoot you while you're twisting him into a pretzel. Now, doing this with a reach weapon, like a guisarme, combined with armor spikes (to threaten adjacent squares) works just fine. Or, the ubiquitous spiked chain. Spiked armor only works for grapples though ,right? So ,unless they have improved it with a feat, using spiked armor for an AoO justs gets you hit with an (pre-emptive?) AoO. I use a feat for polearms that let you switch grips on them to threaten the 5' square or the 10' out square. Works like quickdraw for polearms... except you can't switch back until your next turn. :)
Solik 03-06-07, 08:22 PM	By the way, tripping is another possibility. Like Sunder, you don't have to worry about AoO for the most part, and it'll take an action for the archer to stand back up. I guess he could lie there and shoot at you, but boy is that ever a bad idea.