Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lowendz113 06-06-05, 03:27 AM	So I have an archer who is 16th lv. We just played tonight and I was by far the main damage dealer and I was never hurt. My character is a ranger 6/occult slayer 5/order of the bow initiate 5. My feats are improved init, weapon focus, leadership, combat ref, hold the lines (pointless because I never ever get charged) dead eye, and many shot. From being a ranger I get wild empathy, favord enemy human and undead, from occult slayer I get blank thoughts(immune to fear effects) magical defense (+3 to all saves that involve magic) weapon bond (deals 1d6 to any creature with spells or spell like abilites) Vicous strike (deal double damage when ready agaisnt a spell caster) mind over magic (can bounce back a spell twice a day) Aura vision (detect magic) Non-detection cloak (as the spell). From order of the bow, Ranged precision (+3d8 with a standerd action) point blank shot, greater weapon focus. For those of you that took the time to read all that you know I've got some killer feats. But you might not totally understand. I always manyshot with 4 arrows, and just like back stab, precsion shot can be used with many shot. So I deal 7d8 right there, my bow is holy, 4d6, for the sake of this we'll say the creature has spell like abilites, 4d6 and exit wound 4d6. thats a lot of die, but I also do +60 damage (8 from str, 32 from dex(dead eye), 12 from the bow, 4 from greater gloves of archery, and 4 because I'm within 30 feet), if they are human that goes up by 8 and if they are undead I lose the dex but gain 16. So my average damage comes out to 28(precision)+32(holy)+12(weaponbond)+12 (exit wound) +60 = 144. thats crazy right? I mean I could easily drop a 16th lv fighter if I rolled well. I also get a +22 to hit with 4 arrows which isnt anyhting to laugh at. What do you guys think?
Vaelan 06-06-05, 03:35 AM	Manyshot and Ranged Precision cannot be used together. They both require you to make different standard actions, and thus you cannot use them both in a single round. +60 damage ... 32 from dex(dead eye) ... Assuming this Dead Eye gives you your Dexterity modifier to damage, how did you end up with 74 Dexterity?
stealth_monkey 06-06-05, 04:02 AM	Vaelen is correct. They can not be used together. As for the dead-eye feat, I can't seem to find it. Where is it from? Also, Holy only gives a +2d6 damage bonus. You also need to ready a disrupt action to use vicous strike. Meaning you may not get to use it twice. All in all I'd say no offence, but you are breaking the rules with the build as you described and I'd still take a level 17 arcane spellcaster over that in terms of sheer destruction
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:08 AM	Manyshot and Ranged Precision cannot be used together. They both require you to make different standard actions, and thus you cannot use them both in a single round. Many Shot: Specail: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage(such as sneak attack damage) only once. So I'm think'n it does, ranged precision and precision damage, sounds like they fit together to me. Assuming this Dead Eye gives you your Dexterity modifier to damage, how did you end up with 74 Dexterity?[/QUOTE] Well as I stated before, I always many shot with 4 arrows. My dex is a 26, (Natural 18 +2 ability points gloves of dex +6) total of +8. 8x4 is 32.
SALDAR 06-06-05, 04:09 AM	12 from the bow And a +12 bow? At 16th level? Even epic weapons are limited to +10 enhancement to attacks and damage. Edit: Was typing when you answered. The damage is for 4 arrows, not one, then? That does make it sound a little better with an average of 36 (144/4) per arrow. I have a halfling bowman with many of the same feats, although his class progression differs, Ftr4/Rng3/Brb3/OoBI2/Deepwood Sniper 2/Wild Strider 4 (homebrew ranger PrC). His damage is about the same per arrow, but he goes with the Rapid Shot route, 5 attacks per round.
stealth_monkey 06-06-05, 04:14 AM	Many Shot: Specail: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage(such as sneak attack damage) only once. So I'm think'n it does, ranged precision and precision damage, sounds like they fit together to me. Assuming this Dead Eye gives you your Dexterity modifier to damage, how did you end up with 74 Dexterity? Well as I stated before, I always many shot with 4 arrows. My dex is a 26, (Natural 18 +2 ability points gloves of dex +6) total of +8. 8x4 is 32.[/QUOTE] Not the part you needed to focus on re: manyshot Benefit: as a standard action (emphasis mine) you may fire two arrows... You can not take 2 standard actions in a round (usually) thus you can not use both at once
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:14 AM	ok people dont seem to understand what I'm saying so I'll give a single shot for you, 1d8(longbow) +2str+3 ench+1 gaunt. +8dex =14 So I do 1d8+14, if they are undead I do and additional 2d6, if they have spells or spell like abilities thats another 1d6, exit wound adds 1d6. Thus if I hit an evil elven mage I would deal 1d8+2d6+1d6+14=27. If I ready my action agaisnt him casting that would be 54dmg(doubles because of vicous strike).
stealth_monkey 06-06-05, 04:20 AM	ok people dont seem to understand what I'm saying so I'll give a single shot for you, 1d8(longbow) +2str+3 ench+1 gaunt. +8dex =14 So I do 1d8+14, if they are undead I do and additional 2d6, if they have spells or spell like abilities thats another 1d6, exit wound adds 1d6. Thus if I hit an evil elven mage I would deal 1d8+2d6+1d6+14=27. If I ready my action agaisnt him casting that would be 54dmg(doubles because of vicous strike). Yes, your math seems to add up there. However, two things about your build in general. You seem to be focused on caster killing. However, the third level spell wind wall (available to almost all spellcasters) renders your build useless unless you have access to dispelling magic. Secondly, with your math corrected, you are still unable to do that much more damage than a spellcaster, which, given the defenses they would have against you, makes your build quite balanced
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:21 AM	Well as I stated before, I always many shot with 4 arrows. My dex is a 26, (Natural 18 +2 ability points gloves of dex +6) total of +8. 8x4 is 32. Not the part you needed to focus on re: manyshot Benefit: as a standard action (emphasis mine) you may fire two arrows... You can not take 2 standard actions in a round (usually) thus you can not use both at once[/QUOTE] Unlike with a rogues's sneak attack, the initiats target does not have to be flot footed or dendied its dex bonus...Treat the initiats ranged precision attack as a sneak attack in all other ways. Seems to me like there is no reason why it wouldnt apply. But only to the first arrow of the group.
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:23 AM	Yes, your math seems to add up there. However, two things about your build in general. You seem to be focused on caster killing. However, the third level spell wind wall (available to almost all spellcasters) renders your build useless unless you have access to dispelling magic. Secondly, with your math corrected, you are still unable to do that much more damage than a spellcaster, which, given the defenses they would have against you, makes your build quite balanced The only thing is they would have to be aware of my attacks ahead of time as I always ready for their casting. And I dont know of any mage that can make a concetion check DC 90+
stealth_monkey 06-06-05, 04:25 AM	Sorry if I'm not being clear. I sometimes don't do too good a job at explaining things :) - Multishot requires the use of a standard action to activate the ability - The initiate of the bow ranged precision ability requires the use of a standard action to activate the ability - You must therefore use two standard actions to activate both feats - Each round you have 1 move action and 1 standard action Thus- You can not activate both abilities in the same round Thus- You can not use both abilities together
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:25 AM	And a +12 bow? At 16th level? Even epic weapons are limited to +10 enhancement to attacks and damage. Edit: Was typing when you answered. The damage is for 4 arrows, not one, then? That does make it sound a little better with an average of 36 (144/4) per arrow. I have a halfling bowman with many of the same feats, although his class progression differs, Ftr4/Rng3/Brb3/OoBI2/Deepwood Sniper 2/Wild Strider 4 (homebrew ranger PrC). His damage is about the same per arrow, but he goes with the Rapid Shot route, 5 attacks per round. I did the rapid shot thing for a while, but I tear mages up so much more with the vicous strike ya know.
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:27 AM	Sorry if I'm not being clear. I sometimes don't do too good a job at explaining things :) - Multishot requires the use of a standard action to activate the ability - The initiate of the bow ranged precision ability requires the use of a standard action to activate the ability - You must therefore use two standard actions to activate both feats - Each round you have 1 move action and 1 standard action Thus- You can not activate both abilities in the same round Thus- You can not use both abilities together I see where you are coming from, but by what the special part of manyshot says, leads me to believe that it is possible. My dm seems to think so too, as well as our lawyer.
SALDAR 06-06-05, 04:31 AM	What stealth_monkey is saying is that each of these abilities requires a standard action on its own, Manyshot to shoot 4 arrows and Ranged Precision to gain extra damage. You cannot combine two standard actions into one standard action. It would be like casting two standard action spells at the same time. You must choose to use one ability or the other.
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:35 AM	Okay, so say I cant, whatever, its still average of 132 points of damge. thats crazy still right? considering I have little to no danger of attacks.
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:37 AM	So what about in the case of an elven double bow, could fire the extra arrow and still use the prec. damage? (I dont totally recall the rules for the double bow)
stealth_monkey 06-06-05, 04:39 AM	If your dm allows that, then yes. Your build is most definitely broken. However, consider the following scenario. You run over a hill to engage an orc and choose to use your many shot ability to fire multiple arrows at him. How do you grant precision damage to your arrows? You simply don't have enough standard actions to do it in.
lowendz113 06-06-05, 04:47 AM	If your dm allows that, then yes. Your build is most definitely broken. However, consider the following scenario. You run over a hill to engage an orc and choose to use your many shot ability to fire multiple arrows at him. How do you grant precision damage to your arrows? You simply don't have enough standard actions to do it in. Well basically to me you aim. Thats why you deal more damage cause you stick those arrows in places it hurts pretty dang bad. now the only one you can really do that with is the first arrow, your main arrow if you will, the rest are just kinda along for the ride. So basically you draw the 4 arrows out, pull them back, spend some extra time looking at the target and bam, you jack him up. Just like a rouge who uses a bow comes up over top a hill, sees and orc thats not looking at him shoots the orc in the kidney with his many shot.
MerricB 06-06-05, 05:00 AM	No, archers are not broken because you can't take that action by the rules. Does your DM also allow you to cast a spell at the same time as you shoot an arrow? They're both standard actions. ### Incidentally, a Power Attacking Half-Orc Ftr16 by that time will be doing something like... ooh... (30 str...) +25/+20/+15/+10 to hit, 4d6+31 (+2 flaming shock greatsword, power attack 5) 45 average damage per strike. ### The Deadeye feat? Where does that come from? The Elven Doublebow? Where does that come from? Where does Exit Wound come from? ### Sneak attack does not require a standard action. It is applied to any attack you make (where its conditions are satisfied - no Dex, flanked, etc.) That's why the wording is there in Manyshot. Cheers!
lowendz113 06-06-05, 05:13 AM	No, archers are not broken because you can't take that action by the rules. Does your DM also allow you to cast a spell at the same time as you shoot an arrow? They're both standard actions. Well its a 12 point difference on damage, not that big of a difference. And no he wouldnt allow a spell and an arrow fired in the same round, said for haste or simlar effects. ### Incidentally, a Power Attacking Half-Orc Ftr16 by that time will be doing something like... ooh... (30 str...) +25/+20/+15/+10 to hit, 4d6+31 (+2 flaming shock greatsword, power attack 5) 45 average damage per strike. Well then I guess my 144 isnt that bad at all. ### The Deadeye feat? Where does that come from? The Elven Doublebow? Where does that come from? Where does Exit Wound come from? Deadeye - Not really sure, I think it was a dragon, our dm at the time found it Elven doublebow - Arms and equipment I believe - weapon Exit wound - complete warrior - quality ### Sneak attack does not require a standard action. It is applied to any attack you make (where its conditions are satisfied - no Dex, flanked, etc.) That's why the wording is there in Manyshot. Cheers! Well to me, sneak attack and ranged precision seem like the same thing, you hit someone in a place that dosnt feel to nice. Just you use them differently. Backstab is a capitalizing thing, precsion is a skill thing. Manyshot says specifically "precision damage" which this is correct? And Ranged Precision says its works like backstab. So that leads me to believe that it is possible.
SALDAR 06-06-05, 05:13 AM	The Deadeye feat comes from Dragon magazine (can't recall which one). You add your Dex mod to damage with a bow. The others I have no idea.
eclipticavatar 06-06-05, 05:36 AM	Elven double bow is in the Races of the Wild aswell.
lowendz113 06-06-05, 05:39 AM	Okay heres another thought...if an rouge can aim well enough using multi shot, why cant a guy who is super trained with bow not be able to do the same thing. And if it cant, which very well may be the case, the isnt Order of the Bow super nerfed. It makes you give up at least one attack (in my case 4 with rapid shot) for an extra 3d8 yuck. with my other attacks I would get the damage from the holy and what not too.
Amalia Moonblade 06-06-05, 05:41 AM	I'm slightly curious as to how you're remaining immune to damage. Sure, your Order of the Bow abilities will allow you to fire in melee, but they can still hit you. A creature with flight, or area effect abilities, or teleportation, or gaze attacks, or Mobility, or Improved Initiative, should be able to tear you into tiny chunks. How are you preventing this, or is the DM just using poor strategy for his monsters? ...you know, I'm sure you made a point about being near invulnerable somewhere in this thread, but I can't find it. I'm going mad...
lowendz113 06-06-05, 05:44 AM	I'm slightly curious as to how you're remaining immune to damage. Sure, your Order of the Bow abilities will allow you to fire in melee, but they can still hit you. A creature with flight, or area effect abilities, or teleportation, or gaze attacks, or Mobility, or Improved Initiative, should be able to tear you into tiny chunks. How are you preventing this, or is the DM just using poor strategy for his monsters? ...you know, I'm sure you made a point about being near invulnerable somewhere in this thread, but I can't find it. I'm going mad... Its not that I cant actually be hurt, its just that we have melee guys that keep guys looked up, not to mention I make it a point to stay right about 25ft away from the bad guys hehe. I also have a cloak of the bat that lets me fly for most of the fight too, so that helps. Gaze attacks are usually fear or dominate kinda thing I think too, which I'm Immune too. I'm immune to all mind effecting stuff. As a matter of fact I almost got killed by two blue dragons, yuck. Its just that more often than not you arnt in the main fight as an archer.
q'afuu 06-06-05, 06:33 AM	Its not that I cant actually be hurt, its just that we have melee guys that keep guys looked up, not to mention I make it a point to stay right about 25ft away from the bad guys hehe. I IOW, your build does great because it gets a lot of help from the other guys and because the bad guys are too dumb to move 25 ft. (no more than a single move) to get to you. Gotcha. ;)
lowendz113 06-06-05, 06:37 AM	IOW, your build does great because it gets a lot of help from the other guys and because the bad guys are too dumb to move 25 ft. (no more than a single move) to get to you. Gotcha. ;) Sorry I'm not up in the jargen yet, what is IOW? and are you being serious or sarcastic? I cant tell... If sarcasim is the case, in order to get to me an enemy would usually have to provoke 2 AoO which would really blow. They couldnt charge me because they wouldnt be able to go in a strait line, not to mention they need to be able to hit something thats up in the air. Most of the time poeple are just going to worry about the things they can reach and hit.
Amalia Moonblade 06-06-05, 06:43 AM	Sorry I'm not up in the jargen yet, what is IOW? and are you being serious or sarcastic? I cant tell... If sarcasim is the case, in order to get to me an enemy would usually have to provoke 2 AoO which would really blow. They couldnt charge me because they wouldnt be able to go in a strait line, not to mention they need to be able to hit something thats up in the air. Most of the time poeple are just going to worry about the things they can reach and hit. Still, large monsters can reach you fine, unless you fly high. And you're still a gaping target for any number of spells (or, indeed, enemy archers). Flying creatures will also stand a good chance. You have done a good job of preventing all and sundry getting to you. But you shouldn't be unbeatable...
Occams_Razor 06-06-05, 07:50 AM	Yeah, I'd say it only seems broken because of the way your DM is running things. Not to slight your DM, but he should be developing challenges that impact the whole party. COnsider, a monk could tumble past your two melee fighters, perhaps even through their squares (at level 16, the DC of 25-35 is no problem) and be all over you like cheap cologne. If you're in the air, either jump, with another DC 25-30 check, or perhaps dispel your cloak (if it's a cleric or wizard, etc) and supress it's abilities for most of the fight. The DM can counter your strengths quite readily. Just because he isn't doesn mean that arcehrs are broken, it just means you are lucky. ;)
angryman 06-06-05, 07:54 AM	My friend made a similarly buff archer in my campaign. He was a straight bow ranger, actually. The things that really screwed him were will saves (esp. dominate and hold), grapples (at level 16, a lot of monsters are huge+), casters with spells such as windwall, prot. from arrows, etc. Also monsters with interesting DR such as silver & holy. Enemies with long range attacks (no point blank, sneak attack etc) such as wizards or snipers. If he was unmolested, he tended to kick butt, however as soon as he shot a volley of death (tm), most intelligent NPCs would try to neutralise him as soon as possible. Ohh, and a charging, raging sundering barbarian also made him cry...
Zherog 06-06-05, 08:00 AM	Explain to me why you took Combat Reflexes? :confused: You can't take attacks of opportunity with a bow, so it's a completely wasted feat.
q'afuu 06-06-05, 08:27 AM	Sorry I'm not up in the jargen yet, what is IOW? and are you being serious or sarcastic? I cant tell... IOW=In Other Words. I was joking, but I did try to make a point. Regardless of the damage you can do (which is pretty good but hardly excessive at the char's level, especially given that DR applies against each arrow separately and there are several ways to make it a lot harder on you to hit in the first place), you still require others, with other qualities, to allow you to do so without getting into trouble too often. It's the same thing wizards suffer from: a single spell can cause immeasurable havoc, but wizards don't stand very long to opponents that manage to get to them. And wizards at least have several spells they can use to make that more difficult. Your character's best bet is a fly spell, while everyone and their proverbial grandmother will have access to flight at that level. If sarcasim is the case, in order to get to me an enemy would usually have to provoke 2 AoO which would really blow. They couldnt charge me because they wouldnt be able to go in a strait line, not to mention they need to be able to hit something thats up in the air. Most of the time poeple are just going to worry about the things they can reach and hit. Would they, and would it really blow it they did? Skills like Tumble and feats like Mobility make me think it's not as bad as all that. Other archers and casters with ranged spells won't have to move past anyone to get to you, and opponents with high speed (and again, at your char's level that's easy to accomplish for everyone) can run circles around your buddies without provoking, terrain conditions permitting. In my experience, people worry about the things that hit them. The harder they get hit, the more they worry about it. What they focus on is determined first by what they worry about most, not by what they can reach more easily.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-06-05, 08:49 AM	At 16th level, if you're doing 166 damage by anything that takes more effort than sneezing on them, then you're weak. I am not impressed by your build, Archery has so many ways to be beaten.
lowendz113 06-06-05, 01:32 PM	Well mages dont work to well agaisnt me because I can throw there spells bad at them(mind over magic). A mond jumping to hit me is still only going to get a standerd action while I get my full attack. Not to mention there isnt a max height I could go, If I wanted to just make sure I was out of ranged 120ft up, now I know most normal things arnt getting me then. But yeah I see your point. Guess my dm just isnt trying to kill me hard enough.
lowendz113 06-06-05, 01:38 PM	All right then, end of thread.
Sulaco 06-06-05, 01:56 PM	Okay, so say I cant, whatever, its still average of 132 points of damge. thats crazy still right? considering I have little to no danger of attacks. Dealing massive amounts of damage while not being attacked is what archers do. It is their raison detre. Just look at the Battle of Agincourt: Henry V's longbowmen killed upwards of 10,000 French while the English dead numbered less than 200.
MrkGrismer 06-06-05, 02:17 PM	All it takes is a single beholder (as support) and that character is going to have a very bad day.
Escef 06-06-05, 02:43 PM	I had a PC in my game with a nasty archer build once. Then one day the group ran into an enemy group with a firing line of archers, built like the PC at lower level. I believe the line is, "The sky was so thick with arrows you could hardly see the sun."
Zherog 06-06-05, 03:22 PM	As a DM, if you want to make an archer player cry all you need to do is Sunder his bow as he stands there unable to do anything to defend himself. :)
Capt. Pixel 06-06-05, 03:38 PM	The Deadeye feat comes from Dragon magazine (can't recall which one). You add your Dex mod to damage with a bow. The others I have no idea. I'm sorry, but that sounds like a major mistake to allow that in the campaign. :eek:
Sulaco 06-06-05, 04:19 PM	I'm sorry, but that sounds like a major mistake to allow that in the campaign. :eek: Well, unless they are completely cracked I'd imagine it is in place of, not additional to, the STR damage bonus. Kinda like weapon finesse for archers.
bobbilcon 06-06-05, 04:34 PM	I have a lvl 17 ranger/briar archer from quentasencal ranger that on genral deals olny 20 more damage than you. but olny has a +4 seeking ranged elven double bow. :weep:
MaxDog 06-06-05, 04:37 PM	Explain to me why you took Combat Reflexes? :confused: You can't take attacks of opportunity with a bow, so it's a completely wasted feat. As a Ranger 6 he has access to the spell ArrowMind (CV) -- as an immediate action he threatens adjacent squares while armed with a bow and may make AoO's. Further, firing from a threatened square does not provoke AoO's. Also, as a OBI he has the ability Close Combat Shot (I think that's what it's called) which allows you to fire a bow in a threatened square without drawing an AoO and you threaten adjacent squares. Although it does not explicitly address making AoO's , I have heard DMs argue that because you threaten a square with the bow, you may take AoO's with it.
MaxDog 06-06-05, 04:42 PM	I'm sorry, but that sounds like a major mistake to allow that in the campaign. :eek: I think this depends on whether the extra damage can be applied to all arrows in a Manyshot volley, or just the first. Also, was the OP applying both Dex (from DeadEye) and Str (from a Mighty Bow)to damage. I would think DeadEye would say "use Dex bonus in place of Str bonus" for damage, not "in addition to". Just a guess.
Asciiman 06-06-05, 04:52 PM	Well, unless they are completely cracked I'd imagine it is in place of, not additional to, the STR damage bonus. Kinda like weapon finesse for archers. Which is completely overpowered. A feat like this I would only allow at epic levels simply because it pretty much completely invalidates STR from then on. A level 16 character hardly needs good STR to carry things and if you use DEX for DMG to range attacks, or melee, you've clearly made DEX worth about what... ten times as much as any other stat? You get so many things from DEX already, a feat like this should never be allowed into any game.
Zherog 06-06-05, 04:58 PM	As a Ranger 6 he has access to the spell ArrowMind (CV) -- as an immediate action he threatens adjacent squares while armed with a bow and may make AoO's. Further, firing from a threatened square does not provoke AoO's. Also, as a OBI he has the ability Close Combat Shot (I think that's what it's called) which allows you to fire a bow in a threatened square without drawing an AoO and you threaten adjacent squares. Although it does not explicitly address making AoO's , I have heard DMs argue that because you threaten a square with the bow, you may take AoO's with it. I don't have Complete Adventurer yet (it should arrive this week), so I can't comment on the arrow mind spell. However, you are incorrect about the Order of the Bow Initiate ability. It does indeed allow you to fire while threatened without provoking an attack of opportunity. It does not, however, allow you to threaten as I recall. This means, for example, you still cannot flank with your bow. I'll double check this when I get home this evening, though, to be sure.
Farland 06-06-05, 05:31 PM	Sorry if I'm not being clear. I sometimes don't do too good a job at explaining things - Multishot requires the use of a standard action to activate the ability - The initiate of the bow ranged precision ability requires the use of a standard action to activate the ability - You must therefore use two standard actions to activate both feats - Each round you have 1 move action and 1 standard action Thus- You can not activate both abilities in the same round Thus- You can not use both abilities together This is absolutely correct. They cannot be used together. It's clear from the descriptions.
q'afuu 06-06-05, 06:07 PM	However, you are incorrect about the Order of the Bow Initiate ability. It does indeed allow you to fire while threatened without provoking an attack of opportunity. It does not, however, allow you to threaten as I recall. This means, for example, you still cannot flank with your bow. You are correct. The PrC that allows you to threaten at range is the Peerless Archer, the OotBI doesn't do so (I've also been told about Whisperknives recently, which apparently get something similar, but I don't know any specifics).
BladeDrinker 06-06-05, 06:18 PM	As a DM, if you want to make an archer player cry all you need to do is Sunder his bow as he stands there unable to do anything to defend himself. :) Or Warp Wood (level 2 druid spell), Wind Wall (level 3 wizard spell), and many more. Plus you need line of sight, after all. Archers aren't broken unless the DM has your enemies just engage in melee with your party tanks, as it sounds like the DM has in this case.