Are breath weapons considered bursts or spreads? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are breath weapons considered bursts or spreads? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RavingDork
09-03-07, 10:08 AM Are breath weapons considered bursts or spreads? :confused:

I ask because we keep running into dragons who breath fire and lightning at our tower shield wielding tank. :rolleyes:

Does the breath weapon wrap around his shield (spread) or does the full cover protect him completely (burst). Furthermore, if it is the latter, does the shield take damage since it is hit directly (possibly destroying it and hurting the fighter), or not (since it is an attended object)? :confused:

Not stating what kind of area affect a breath weapon is seems like a big hole in the rules to me. :mad:
akinckillerchris
09-03-07, 10:29 AM i see as either way if the tower shield is in front of him and he is taking cover from it i donw see howit can get behing him..thats just not logical...

/
a /
------------(
a \
\
i see thats how logic states..not it going behind the shield and hitting him anyway unless the explosion is targetting him..
akinckillerchris
09-03-07, 10:29 AM sorry the /\ things are supposed to be up at the other point..but aparently its retarted and wont go.....
Sol_Aedh_Avoth
09-03-07, 10:32 AM I'd say burst plus Shield damage, but in reality I use a homerule which is a midway in the burst/spread...
But it would be easier to understand by watch than to be explained here...
Malraux
09-03-07, 11:23 AM The breath weapon description says that it fills the area, which implies that the shield won't help. The rules aren't clear though, so I'd go for compromise and grant a cover bonus to the save.
Nom
09-03-07, 08:38 PM Neither MM pg 69 (Dragon, True - breath weapon) nor MM pg 306 (glossary, "breath weapon") specifically state. MM pg 69 simply notes that it is a line or cone.

PH pg 175 notes that "Most cones are either bursts or emanations, and thus won't go around corners". Given this, I'd recommend assuming that any cone that doesn't otherwise say is a burst (instantaneous) or an emanation (has duration), not a spread. This includes breath weapons.

Is anyone aware of a cone effect that is explicitly a spread? Spreads seem to work best with spherical effects, given that "the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions".
Ludanto
09-03-07, 09:47 PM Ok, breath weapons are lines or cones (MM p69).

A tower shield can provide total cover if you give up your attacks (PHB p125).

Line of Effect is like "line of sight" but isn't affected by things that block sight (PHB p176).

Cones require Line of Effect to affect things in their areas (PHB p176).

Lines do not require Line of Effect to affect things in their areas, but a solid object that blocks Line of Effect stops the Line (PHB p176).

Most Cones are are Bursts (or emanations, but we don't care about those) (PHB p175).

So, from this, a tower shield used for Total Cover will completely negate a Breath Weapon Cone for that character. It technically doesn't have the same effect for a Breath Weapon Line, but since it stops the Line from getting past the shield, it will save him anyway and anybody who happens to be behind him.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth
09-03-07, 09:57 PM but since it stops the Line from getting past the shield, it will save him anyway and anybody who happens to be behind him.
If the Shield saves against the Breath (Ref Save? A Tower Shield???) and survives the damage... :D

Otherwise this could be a consequence:
http://www.comedianbrianhiggins.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/shocked.jpeg

Immediately followed by Death (not by damage, but Desperation for the loss of your +5 Tower Shield of the Heavens)...
runestar
09-03-07, 10:01 PM The DMG mentions that a breath weapon just "fills the area", whatever that means.
jaelis
09-03-07, 11:52 PM The gas ones (like the copper dragon's slow effect) seem like they would be spreads.
NobodyRemembersThis
09-04-07, 01:35 AM The breath weapon description says that it fills the area, which implies that the shield won't help. The rules aren't clear though, so I'd go for compromise and grant a cover bonus to the save.Incorrect. In 3.5, giving up your attacks with a tower shield to gain total cover works in every direction.

At no time will the dragon have line of effect to a tower shield wielder taking total cover. So the TSW is effectively immune to breath weapons.

Sol_Aedh_Avoth: You can't sunder with a breath weapon. Consequntly, you can not damage a tower shiled when it is being wielded - especially for total cover. It will never be a valid target for a breath weapon when wielded to gain total cover.
ArcTan
09-04-07, 01:39 AM Incorrect. In 3.5, giving up your attacks with a tower shield to gain total cover works in every direction.

An annoying but inevitable effect of getting rid of facing completely from the rules (similar to the effect of making "long" creatures like Horses take up 10-foot-squares).

If you like, you can imagine that a spread doesn't spread quickly enough that a guy with a tower shield can't spin around fast enough to block any flames that lick toward him. Or something.
Malraux
09-04-07, 01:58 AM Incorrect. In 3.5, giving up your attacks with a tower shield to gain total cover works in every direction.

At no time will the dragon have line of effect to a tower shield wielder taking total cover. So the TSW is effectively immune to breath weapons.

Sol_Aedh_Avoth: You can't sunder with a breath weapon. Consequntly, you can not damage a tower shiled when it is being wielded - especially for total cover. It will never be a valid target for a breath weapon when wielded to gain total cover.

Stupid 3.5 changes. I swear that tower shields were the one exception to the facing rules.

Anyway, if you want to go technical, the rules also specifically state that breath weapons fill the space, so even with cover, the weapon still fills behind the shield.
ArcTan
09-04-07, 02:00 AM Well, actually I just reconsidered -- if you imagine hiding *under* the tower shield like a turtle, the way the Spartan soldiers do in the infamous "arrows blot out the sky" scene in 300, then it actually makes a lot of sense (presuming that the breath weapon does have some viscosity and doesn't automagically fill *every single tiny crack* in its space).
Malraux
09-04-07, 02:03 AM (presuming that the breath weapon does have some viscosity and doesn't automagically fill *every single tiny crack* in its space).
Well, that seems to be what the breath weapon description says.
The breath simply fills its stated area.
ArcTan
09-04-07, 02:59 AM Well, that seems to be what the breath weapon description says.

So what, it goes inside your mouth and eyes and pores and burns out your stomach, skull and bloodstream?

An understanding that natural language like this will have exceptions for technicalities is always useful to have.
Nom
09-04-07, 03:23 AM The DMG mentions that a breath weapon just "fills the area", whatever that means.Considering that the exact quote (DMG glossary, about pg 300) is "* no attack roll is necessary, the breath simply fills its stated area", that tells us only that it's an area attack. A cone of cold "fills its stated area" (literally "affects whatever it catches in its area", PH pg 175) too; it just happens that - as a burst - total cover can affect the shape of that area.

Heck, even spreads have their area modified by obstructions, though sometimes to a lesser extent than bursts. Remember that even a spread must trace path of effect - the area isn't automatically the maximum radius (but see cylinder).
ArcTan
09-04-07, 03:40 AM BTW, you may not *like* that a tower shield is completely invulnerable to being burned while the Fighter carries it, even if he's using it to totally block cones of fire all the time, but you have to ask yourself if you'd rather have a situation where your spellbook instantly ignites and burns to ash every time your Wizard gets caught in a fireball.

Because that is far more "logical", and it's not really logical to have one but not the other.

Honestly, it's best to just keep the simplifying rule of "equipment doesn't get damaged except on a natural 1" and leave it there.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth
09-04-07, 06:11 AM you can not damage a tower shiled when it is being wielded - especially for total cover. It will never be a valid target for a breath weapon when wielded to gain total cover.
Well, that's not just being wielded... it's used as a cover and being hit directly, and to think in a logical way, it should be destroyed like any other kind of cover would (a Rock, for example)...
Ludanto
09-04-07, 09:29 AM Well, that's not just being wielded... it's used as a cover and being hit directly, and to think in a logical way, it should be destroyed like any other kind of cover would (a Rock, for example)...

Don't think in a logical way.
RavingDork
11-04-07, 02:12 AM :bump:
ArcTan
11-04-07, 03:02 AM Why the **** would you bump this? There's nothing to bump. The question was freaking asked and answered.

STOP DOING IT. It's really starting to count as disruptive, bannable behavior.
RavingDork
11-04-07, 11:26 AM Why the **** would you bump this? There's nothing to bump. The question was freaking asked and answered.

I'm sorry. I didn't see a Dev come in and answer the question in official capacity or a poster backup his claim with undeniable proof. Did I miss it somehow?

Show me this answer and this thread will disappear. As is, it has been on the back pages for over a month without a clear answer (that I can find). I don't make a habit of bumping pages that have given me a clear answer.

It appears that you are merely throwing a fit because not everyone had agreed with your interpretation (mind you I am not necessarily disagreeing with it).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RavingDork 09-03-07, 10:08 AM	Are breath weapons considered bursts or spreads? :confused: I ask because we keep running into dragons who breath fire and lightning at our tower shield wielding tank. :rolleyes: Does the breath weapon wrap around his shield (spread) or does the full cover protect him completely (burst). Furthermore, if it is the latter, does the shield take damage since it is hit directly (possibly destroying it and hurting the fighter), or not (since it is an attended object)? :confused: Not stating what kind of area affect a breath weapon is seems like a big hole in the rules to me. :mad:
akinckillerchris 09-03-07, 10:29 AM	i see as either way if the tower shield is in front of him and he is taking cover from it i donw see howit can get behing him..thats just not logical... / a / ------------( a \ \ i see thats how logic states..not it going behind the shield and hitting him anyway unless the explosion is targetting him..
akinckillerchris 09-03-07, 10:29 AM	sorry the /\ things are supposed to be up at the other point..but aparently its retarted and wont go.....
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-03-07, 10:32 AM	I'd say burst plus Shield damage, but in reality I use a homerule which is a midway in the burst/spread... But it would be easier to understand by watch than to be explained here...
Malraux 09-03-07, 11:23 AM	The breath weapon description says that it fills the area, which implies that the shield won't help. The rules aren't clear though, so I'd go for compromise and grant a cover bonus to the save.
Nom 09-03-07, 08:38 PM	Neither MM pg 69 (Dragon, True - breath weapon) nor MM pg 306 (glossary, "breath weapon") specifically state. MM pg 69 simply notes that it is a line or cone. PH pg 175 notes that "Most cones are either bursts or emanations, and thus won't go around corners". Given this, I'd recommend assuming that any cone that doesn't otherwise say is a burst (instantaneous) or an emanation (has duration), not a spread. This includes breath weapons. Is anyone aware of a cone effect that is explicitly a spread? Spreads seem to work best with spherical effects, given that "the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions".
Ludanto 09-03-07, 09:47 PM	Ok, breath weapons are lines or cones (MM p69). A tower shield can provide total cover if you give up your attacks (PHB p125). Line of Effect is like "line of sight" but isn't affected by things that block sight (PHB p176). Cones require Line of Effect to affect things in their areas (PHB p176). Lines do not require Line of Effect to affect things in their areas, but a solid object that blocks Line of Effect stops the Line (PHB p176). Most Cones are are Bursts (or emanations, but we don't care about those) (PHB p175). So, from this, a tower shield used for Total Cover will completely negate a Breath Weapon Cone for that character. It technically doesn't have the same effect for a Breath Weapon Line, but since it stops the Line from getting past the shield, it will save him anyway and anybody who happens to be behind him.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-03-07, 09:57 PM	but since it stops the Line from getting past the shield, it will save him anyway and anybody who happens to be behind him. If the Shield saves against the Breath (Ref Save? A Tower Shield???) and survives the damage... :D Otherwise this could be a consequence: http://www.comedianbrianhiggins.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/shocked.jpeg Immediately followed by Death (not by damage, but Desperation for the loss of your +5 Tower Shield of the Heavens)...
runestar 09-03-07, 10:01 PM	The DMG mentions that a breath weapon just "fills the area", whatever that means.
jaelis 09-03-07, 11:52 PM	The gas ones (like the copper dragon's slow effect) seem like they would be spreads.
NobodyRemembersThis 09-04-07, 01:35 AM	The breath weapon description says that it fills the area, which implies that the shield won't help. The rules aren't clear though, so I'd go for compromise and grant a cover bonus to the save.Incorrect. In 3.5, giving up your attacks with a tower shield to gain total cover works in every direction. At no time will the dragon have line of effect to a tower shield wielder taking total cover. So the TSW is effectively immune to breath weapons. Sol_Aedh_Avoth: You can't sunder with a breath weapon. Consequntly, you can not damage a tower shiled when it is being wielded - especially for total cover. It will never be a valid target for a breath weapon when wielded to gain total cover.
ArcTan 09-04-07, 01:39 AM	Incorrect. In 3.5, giving up your attacks with a tower shield to gain total cover works in every direction. An annoying but inevitable effect of getting rid of facing completely from the rules (similar to the effect of making "long" creatures like Horses take up 10-foot-squares). If you like, you can imagine that a spread doesn't spread quickly enough that a guy with a tower shield can't spin around fast enough to block any flames that lick toward him. Or something.
Malraux 09-04-07, 01:58 AM	Incorrect. In 3.5, giving up your attacks with a tower shield to gain total cover works in every direction. At no time will the dragon have line of effect to a tower shield wielder taking total cover. So the TSW is effectively immune to breath weapons. Sol_Aedh_Avoth: You can't sunder with a breath weapon. Consequntly, you can not damage a tower shiled when it is being wielded - especially for total cover. It will never be a valid target for a breath weapon when wielded to gain total cover. Stupid 3.5 changes. I swear that tower shields were the one exception to the facing rules. Anyway, if you want to go technical, the rules also specifically state that breath weapons fill the space, so even with cover, the weapon still fills behind the shield.
ArcTan 09-04-07, 02:00 AM	Well, actually I just reconsidered -- if you imagine hiding under the tower shield like a turtle, the way the Spartan soldiers do in the infamous "arrows blot out the sky" scene in 300, then it actually makes a lot of sense (presuming that the breath weapon does have some viscosity and doesn't automagically fill every single tiny crack in its space).
Malraux 09-04-07, 02:03 AM	(presuming that the breath weapon does have some viscosity and doesn't automagically fill every single tiny crack in its space). Well, that seems to be what the breath weapon description says. The breath simply fills its stated area.
ArcTan 09-04-07, 02:59 AM	Well, that seems to be what the breath weapon description says. So what, it goes inside your mouth and eyes and pores and burns out your stomach, skull and bloodstream? An understanding that natural language like this will have exceptions for technicalities is always useful to have.
Nom 09-04-07, 03:23 AM	The DMG mentions that a breath weapon just "fills the area", whatever that means.Considering that the exact quote (DMG glossary, about pg 300) is "* no attack roll is necessary, the breath simply fills its stated area", that tells us only that it's an area attack. A cone of cold "fills its stated area" (literally "affects whatever it catches in its area", PH pg 175) too; it just happens that - as a burst - total cover can affect the shape of that area. Heck, even spreads have their area modified by obstructions, though sometimes to a lesser extent than bursts. Remember that even a spread must trace path of effect - the area isn't automatically the maximum radius (but see cylinder).
ArcTan 09-04-07, 03:40 AM	BTW, you may not like that a tower shield is completely invulnerable to being burned while the Fighter carries it, even if he's using it to totally block cones of fire all the time, but you have to ask yourself if you'd rather have a situation where your spellbook instantly ignites and burns to ash every time your Wizard gets caught in a fireball. Because that is far more "logical", and it's not really logical to have one but not the other. Honestly, it's best to just keep the simplifying rule of "equipment doesn't get damaged except on a natural 1" and leave it there.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-04-07, 06:11 AM	you can not damage a tower shiled when it is being wielded - especially for total cover. It will never be a valid target for a breath weapon when wielded to gain total cover. Well, that's not just being wielded... it's used as a cover and being hit directly, and to think in a logical way, it should be destroyed like any other kind of cover would (a Rock, for example)...
Ludanto 09-04-07, 09:29 AM	Well, that's not just being wielded... it's used as a cover and being hit directly, and to think in a logical way, it should be destroyed like any other kind of cover would (a Rock, for example)... Don't think in a logical way.
RavingDork 11-04-07, 02:12 AM	:bump:
ArcTan 11-04-07, 03:02 AM	Why the **** would you bump this? There's nothing to bump. The question was freaking asked and answered. STOP DOING IT. It's really starting to count as disruptive, bannable behavior.
RavingDork 11-04-07, 11:26 AM	Why the **** would you bump this? There's nothing to bump. The question was freaking asked and answered. I'm sorry. I didn't see a Dev come in and answer the question in official capacity or a poster backup his claim with undeniable proof. Did I miss it somehow? Show me this answer and this thread will disappear. As is, it has been on the back pages for over a month without a clear answer (that I can find). I don't make a habit of bumping pages that have given me a clear answer. It appears that you are merely throwing a fit because not everyone had agreed with your interpretation (mind you I am not necessarily disagreeing with it).