Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skywyze 09-06-05, 07:25 PM	As it stands, most of my characters have been more good-aligned than the most good of good gods. With great power comes great responsibility, so why aren't any of the gods living up to theirs? I mean, they're GODS! Does being good-aligned mean you have to be a wussy and a pushover? What happened to walking among mortals, healing ailments and combating evil wherever you go? Does becoming a god mean that you no longer have to enforce the ideals you held as a mortal? Surely that would be more good-aligned than cowering in your realm like some frightened kitten. I'm currently playing a saint, and I'm downright p/o'ed that there aren't any gods who can lead by example. What exactly have these gods done to deserve to put the word "good" in their portfolio? And are there any GOOD gods in any of the pantheons? <SNIP ... real-world religious references aren't necessary, and they tend to start pointless arguments, so please avoid them. Thanks. -- WizO the Hutt>
Seeker95 09-06-05, 07:29 PM	What happened to walking among mortals, healing ailments and combating evil wherever you go?The smart ones don't let you know it is them. :P
skywyze 09-06-05, 07:34 PM	The smart ones don't let you know it is them. :P Shouldn't the be... You know... Leading by example? Teaching people how to live right, that sort thing?
Ogre4Hire 09-06-05, 07:37 PM	Most good dieties don't get directly involved on the Prime (except in Dragonlance, where there's a 10% your character will be on a first name basis with a given diety) for a very good reason: the evil gods. Sure, Pelor could come down himself to stop that plague, but then Nerull is likely to come up to oppose him, leading to a huge God Battle that causes far more devastation and suffering than the plague every could. Plus, having the gods meddling all the time steals away all the glory from the mortals. Marvel Comics did something like this a few years ago when Thor decided to conquer the world in order to put an end to human suffering. Humans were left with nothing to do and devolved into spoiled children because they were incapable of being responsible anymore.
ragingmaro 09-06-05, 07:37 PM	My excuse would be that they made a deal with the evil gods not to walk among mortals so the evil gods wouldn't either.
skywyze 09-06-05, 07:45 PM	Striking deals with Evil incarnate doesn't seem very good-aligned to me. And it doesn't take much to realize that evil isn't holding its side of the bargain.
Chaotic Nothing 09-06-05, 07:50 PM	In Dnd, gods are good because they give the power to do good to their followers. If they came to the material plane, so would other gods, and they would war and destroy the whole place. If anything doesnt make sense, its why they DONT just do that, and become all powerful. Then again, why would there be humans in the first place?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-06-05, 07:56 PM	Striking deals with Evil incarnate doesn't seem very good-aligned to me. And it doesn't take much to realize that evil isn't holding its side of the bargain. But Evil is. Does Erythnul go around slaughtering cities? Does Nerull go around killing people? Does Vecna go around making Hitler look like a saint? (Post-godhood, that is.) The gods don't walk among people. It's like MAD, only across entire universes.
Slyde Shadowdart 09-06-05, 08:05 PM	Somebody needs to read the Avatar Trilogy. Seriously though, if you're at all interested on (what I consider to be) the defining take on the hows and whys of D&D godhood, read the Avatar books and then read the Shadows of the Avatar books. I know, I know, they're Forgotten Realms specific. But that doesn't mean they aren't a great example of how to run the gods in a game. I would also suggest, if you have access to them, that you read the deity and demigods books from all the editions of D&D (AD&D1s, 2nd, D&D 3.x). There is some really good insight to be had there as well. Loooooooong story short, they act the way they do based on a: Being told to by the overgod. b: Necessity c: Agreements. To run the gods, you must realize that they are no different than the mortals that worship them. By this, I mean that they too have desires, wants, ambitions, needs, etcetera. That said, go read the books! ;)
skywyze 09-06-05, 08:10 PM	If becoming a god limits your ability to do good, then why would any good-aligned person willingly become a god in the first place? There's already good gods in place to grant good people spells. Beyond that... Why bother? I mean, by the time you're able to ascend to godhood, you'll do much more good as a mortal. Just allowing yourself to ascend could be considered an evil act then, since it's reducing the amount of goodness being done. :eek:
q'afuu 09-06-05, 08:20 PM	If the gods don't do enough good for your liking on this plane, who says they're not simply too busy doing good on others, where it's needed more? Don't presume to know the gods' motivations and thoughts if you're only a lowly mortal, I say. ;)
skywyze 09-06-05, 08:34 PM	Bah. I just want someone who will do good regardless of consequences. Someone who lives up to their portfolio and the D&D notion of what is good/evil. Let him/her travel the Material Plane, kicking butts and chewing gum. If that brings on a holy war, so be it. Fun for the whole family.
Templetroll 09-06-05, 09:01 PM	Bah. I just want someone who will do good regardless of consequences. Someone who lives up to their portfolio and the D&D notion of what is good/evil. Let him/her travel the Material Plane, kicking butts and chewing gum. If that brings on a holy war, so be it. Fun for the whole family. Have your cleric quest for a Bead of Summoning and go for it!
Zathress 09-06-05, 09:09 PM	In the set up i have for my long runing campaign the gods used to walk the earth. Thier conflicts with each other reeked horrible destruction upon the land. Even when limited to only avatars. One day a new god was born. As his first and only act as a deity he decided to cast out the deities. And thus the gods and avatars were barred from access the the worlds prime material plane. They could only effect the world through the clerics and the like. No one knew this gods name or what happend to him after he cast the others away. But his mark on the world never faded.
ragingmaro 09-06-05, 09:41 PM	Bah. I just want someone who will do good regardless of consequences. Someone who lives up to their portfolio and the D&D notion of what is good/evil. Let him/her travel the Material Plane, kicking butts and chewing gum. If that brings on a holy war, so be it. Fun for the whole family. So you saying starting a war that would bring many evils into the fray and thus the slaughter of many innocent lives is a good aligned thing to do?????
Blackwind 09-06-05, 10:12 PM	Bah. I just want someone who will do good regardless of consequences. It's regards for the consequences that seperate good and evil. I think you need to read up more on the gods because they do lead by example. Why doesn't Kord slay the 5th level Hobgoblin fighter warlord. Maybe cause he's tied up with the Fiendish Advanced Ancient Red Wyrm or wiping out armys of pit fiends.
Kalanth 09-06-05, 10:48 PM	Most good dieties don't get directly involved on the Prime (except in Dragonlance, where there's a 10% your character will be on a first name basis with a given diety) for a very good reason: the evil gods. I dunno, the gods of Forgotten Realms interfere a little bit more than the Dragonlance gods. It seems that in FR there is a 10% that your character will have fought a god before he kicks the bucket. As for the Good in the gods, there is no need to be on the ground peddling your wares to the people for you to be good. The life of mortals is a chess game to the gods, and if they wish to move a piece, then you will know it. They "lead by example," through people like your character, casting Saints down onto the world and expecting them to live well and preach the gods name. So continue to live well and praise your lord and master, and have faith that your god is doing his civic duty through you.
Azzy 09-06-05, 10:49 PM	Striking deals with Evil incarnate doesn't seem very good-aligned to me. And it doesn't take much to realize that evil isn't holding its side of the bargain. It doesn't have to be so much a "deal." Think of it like the Cold War. The gods don't manifest on the Prime to avoid mutually assured destruction (and likely the destruction of just about everything). Or perhaps the good gods, in an effort to keep the evil gods from manifesting on the Prime, got together and performed so sort of ritual (or something to that effect) that would be keep the evil gods out--however it also keeps ALL the gods out. And, of course, evil is going to try outmanoeuvring the good gods (which is probably why they try to get mortals to summon them to the Prime). But that's why the good gods have clerics, paladins, and other followers devoted to the path of good. Bah. I just want someone who will do good regardless of consequences. Yeah, because ignoring the consequences is a Good thing to do. :rolleyes: Someone who lives up to their portfolio and the D&D notion of what is good/evil. Let him/her travel the Material Plane, kicking butts and chewing gum. If that brings on a holy war, so be it. Fun for the whole family. Sure, because holy wars have been such a success in RL, that there's always someone clamouring for another. Who cares about the common people or how much they'll suffer? Oh, wait... maybe the Good gods. ;)
skywyze 09-06-05, 10:52 PM	So you saying starting a war that would bring many evils into the fray and thus the slaughter of many innocent lives is a good aligned thing to do?????Yes. Keep in mind though, that only short-term matters in D&D, what with it having moral absolutism unlike our own reality. The ends never justify the means here (quoth Book of Exalted Deeds). Do good, and if something bad comes from it, so be it. You couldn't have known for sure if something bad would happen, but you do know for sure that your act itself is good. And that's all that matters here. Fear of possible outcomes is not reason good enough to never fight for what you believe in if you ask me. And it's that stalemate that I hate. A world where gods - both good and bad - sit on their butts and watch while the people who need them go unaided. Maybe another time period would be better for me - just prior to the Time of Troubles perhaps. I seem to recall something about gods actually doing stuff back then. And Blackwind, I get the impression from reading about the gods in F&P that gods rarely, if ever, meddle in the affairs of mortals. Could you give me some examples? I mean, I know about Elminster, but he's hardly your average joe.
Seeker95 09-06-05, 11:12 PM	Keep in mind though, that only short-term matters in D&D,Thank the gods that the gods themselves are wiser than thee.
OleOneEye 09-06-05, 11:14 PM	Seems to me there is a whole lot more to the multiverse than one individual prime material plane. Pelor has his hands full making sure that when a swell person's soul makes it to Elysium, they can enjoy an eternity of goodness. Without his constant attention to the afterlife, things would begin to go awry for all those souls under his stead. If you were Pelor, and you give a personal guarantee to them prime folks that a life of goodness will give them everlasting bliss, don't you think they should earn it? The converse is not true for evil gods. They don't give a whim about the rotten people's souls that are sucked to the lower planes other than how to use them to their advantage. Llolth can afford to spend more effort and energy attempting to corrupt the prime. If she isn't attentive to the happenings in the Abyss, well how could the state of affairs for the souls she rules get worse?
skywyze 09-06-05, 11:24 PM	Thank the gods that the gods themselves are wiser than thee.Quoth the preface of Book of Exalted Deeds. Doesn't mean I agree with it.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-07-05, 12:30 AM	Quoth the preface of Book of Exalted Deeds. Doesn't mean I agree with it. Since when has anyone taken the BoED seriously?
ImmortalBlueMage 09-07-05, 12:44 AM	Who ever said that the good gods do nothing to fight evil? Where did this impression come from? Good aligned gods spend their time fighting evil gods, they can't waste time killing off individual Balors and Vampires, that's what they have Clerics and Paladins for.
ragingmaro 09-07-05, 12:46 AM	Yes. Keep in mind though, that only short-term matters in D&D, what with it having moral absolutism unlike our own reality. The ends never justify the means here (quoth Book of Exalted Deeds). Do good, and if something bad comes from it, so be it. You couldn't have known for sure if something bad would happen, but you do know for sure that your act itself is good. And that's all that matters here. Fear of possible outcomes is not reason good enough to never fight for what you believe in if you ask me. And it's that stalemate that I hate. A world where gods - both good and bad - sit on their butts and watch while the people who need them go unaided. Maybe another time period would be better for me - just prior to the Time of Troubles perhaps. I seem to recall something about gods actually doing stuff back then. And Blackwind, I get the impression from reading about the gods in F&P that gods rarely, if ever, meddle in the affairs of mortals. Could you give me some examples? I mean, I know about Elminster, but he's hardly your average joe. Yeah I wish some gods would start a battle and kill a few evil people and end up wiping out the human race and the entire race. To bad that gods aren't good enough to do that.
ragingmaro 09-07-05, 12:50 AM	(Quote again) Yes. Keep in mind though, that only short-term matters in D&D, what with it having moral absolutism unlike our own reality. The ends never justify the means here (quoth Book of Exalted Deeds). Do good, and if something bad comes from it, so be it. You couldn't have known for sure if something bad would happen, but you do know for sure that your act itself is good. And that's all that matters here. Fear of possible outcomes is not reason good enough to never fight for what you believe in if you ask me. And it's that stalemate that I hate. A world where gods - both good and bad - sit on their butts and watch while the people who need them go unaided. Maybe another time period would be better for me - just prior to the Time of Troubles perhaps. I seem to recall something about gods actually doing stuff back then. And Blackwind, I get the impression from reading about the gods in F&P that gods rarely, if ever, meddle in the affairs of mortals. Could you give me some examples? I mean, I know about Elminster, but he's hardly your average joe. This reminds me of my favorite episode of Futurama. Bender becomes a god of a small race of people and learns a lot. He eventually talks to "god" and learns that "If you've done right people won't be sure if you've done anything at all" The actions you want good gods to take are rash and maybe Chaotic good but more like Chaotic STUPID
Shemeska the Marauder 09-07-05, 12:52 AM	Does being good-aligned mean you have to be a wussy and a pushover? The arcanaloth gives a polite chuckle, like she's privy to some joke or finds the question ever so quaint "Yes. Yes it does."
Blackwind 09-07-05, 01:42 AM	Gods are rarely seen at the head of mortal events because they tend to be fighting evil on there own level: Corellon Larethian is doing things like takeing out Cruumsh's eye. Garl Glittergold's antic's slow the the plans of Kurtulmak. Eilistraee asked to be punished along with her mother a sibling so the drow would have a path towards goodness. What actions Good Gods take are met in kind by the actions of Evil Gods. Worsts case Scenerio: Good takes out and evil town the Evil takes out a good city so Good destroys and evil kingdom and it ecalates until whole planes are wiped out in the escalation. It's the same reason beat cops arn't issued assault rifles. Best case Scenerio: A good diety shows up to destroy and evil temple so the evil god shows up to defend it they fight an epic battle killing innocent bystandars untill they both retreat in exaustion mean while the warriars that showed up to aid both sides are dead and the balance of good and evil remain the same. Also lets remember the many Neutral gods that influnce the flow things as well. Lets say that the above temple is of Hextor and it is Kord that wants to destroy it. before he can even make it to the city said temple is located St. Cuthbert tells him that he will not allow it as the temple and it's clergy have broken no laws and that Wee Jas as well will aid in the temples defence as they are all 3 gods of law and can not allow the domain to be comprimised. He seeks the aid of Heironeous who surly regrets the influence that his brother has in the city but no he to respects the law and can not advacate war and this time. Knowing that he himself can not defeat the combined power of 3 gods equal in power to himself he turn to Pelor for aid. Pelor advises that they should each build a temple in the city to engourage the poeple to be free and reamin strong. Both St. Cuthbert and Wee Jas have no concern for such matters and it be comes Pelor and Kord against Hextor and in this way good overcomes evil with no loss of life. Elsewhere Nerull is enraged that his plot has failed.
spectralphoenix 09-07-05, 02:36 AM	Maybe the good gods DO interfere in the world as much as the evil gods do. The evil gods are always creating plans to dominate/destroy/invade the world, but the heroes stop them. Meanwhile, the good deities are creating earth-shattering plans of their own, but they get stopped by all of the blackguards and necromancers in the world. The evil gods only seem to be more proactive because they are the ones most PC's fight.
Ares Blackmane 09-07-05, 04:02 AM	The good-aligned gods act like parents to children growing to adulthood. They want the mortals to mature to their full potential, and that's not going to happen if they depend on their parents to always clean up their mess and keep them from falling. Instead they allow their followers to journey and struggle, but help indirectly, give comfort and guidance.
skywyze 09-07-05, 07:31 AM	I guess what I want is a crusader-god. A paladin-god. Someone who will fight for those who cannot protect themselves. When balors go rampant and destroy a city, I want someone who'll be there to stop them. Is that really so much to ask?
Seeker95 09-07-05, 11:17 AM	I guess what I want is a crusader-god. A paladin-god. Someone who will fight for those who cannot protect themselves. When balors go rampant and destroy a city, I want someone who'll be there to stop them. Is that really so much to ask?Why do you want the gods to do it? What you have described is called a hero. And in D&D, that means a PC. So get off your butt, roll up a paladin, and get to work. :P
Venom of the Yuan Ti 09-07-05, 11:33 AM	I guess what I want is a crusader-god. A paladin-god. Someone who will fight for those who cannot protect themselves. When balors go rampant and destroy a city, I want someone who'll be there to stop them. Is that really so much to ask? No. But it is quite likely he will be very busy, slaying 1/2 fiend sorc 40 greatwyrm red dragons and so on. (IE chalanges of his aproximate level) The PCs will never encounter him untill they get that powerfull too, in wich case most people wont realise THEY exist on the material realm. 1st level Commoners tend to die if they get near CR 50+ evil...
KJW 09-07-05, 11:51 AM	This is why in my campaign world you have the Divine Truce, which is a code of laws for the conduct of deities to prevent another Godswar. The rules are full of loopholes, but for the most part they are honored by both good and evil deities. The core of the rules is that deities have to work mostly through mortals. Except in the Outer Planes where they can try to crush each other as they like. Good likes this because while they would have the upper hand in a full out war on the Prime it would be devastating to mortals and deities alike. Evil likes this because they think mortals are easier to deal with then directly challenging the good gods on the Prime. In fact in my campaign the biggest threat to the Divine Truce, isn't evil, but a CG goddess who is probably my most ruthless and feared deity and she is the 'good' guy.
Sir Elton 09-07-05, 12:44 PM	*I think what he is asking is why are there more evil gods compared to good gods. I think the right answer to your question is that you should make up your own mythology. Unless your DM is hardnosed, I think he will allow you to make up your own deity for your own paladin or cleric. In my own campaigns, I add a lot of realism to make them believeable. For instance, when I learned that there is actually a Force that does good to us, I added the Force to my games for something the Psions and wizards to manipulate. (Note: This is not to say that I endorse cross pollination between Star Wars and D&D. But the "Force" of Star Wars can actually be quantified, or rather simply, Quantum Physiqued. Besides, "the Force" is actually an easier name to call *it* than other names I've heard.) Ahem. Just simply make up your own god and call it good.
Seeker95 09-07-05, 02:41 PM	*I think what he is asking is why are there more evil gods compared to good gods.That's what I thought at first, but the more he talked, the more it became evident that he simply wants the good gods to be more intrusive in the lives of mortals.
skywyze 09-07-05, 05:38 PM	That's what I thought at first, but the more he talked, the more it became evident that he simply wants the good gods to be more intrusive in the lives of mortals.If by intrusive you mean helpful, then yes.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-07-05, 07:10 PM	If by intrusive you mean helpful, then yes. Well, causing the extinction of the human race by allowing the evil gods to come down as well ain't that helpful.
Molu Kai 09-07-05, 07:43 PM	The good-aligned gods act like parents to children growing to adulthood. They want the mortals to mature to their full potential, and that's not going to happen if they depend on their parents to always clean up their mess and keep them from falling. Instead they allow their followers to journey and struggle, but help indirectly, give comfort and guidance. This is an excellent analogy. The gods walking the prime and smiting all evil is akin to your parents showing up to your school and aceing all your tests. Are the beneficiaries really better for it in the long run?
Solik 09-07-05, 07:55 PM	Forgotten Realms, Lathander. Read his history. There ya go.
Ringmereth 09-07-05, 08:16 PM	The good-aligned gods act like parents to children growing to adulthood. They want the mortals to mature to their full potential, and that's not going to happen if they depend on their parents to always clean up their mess and keep them from falling. Instead they allow their followers to journey and struggle, but help indirectly, give comfort and guidance. Indeed. Good-aligned deities are more helpful than any hero-they give those who follow them strength, whether through spells, divine abilities, or other power or guidance, to do good in the world. Asside from that, if dieties start stepping into the mortal world, far more people will die than will be saved from the plots of evil. And it's selfish (something that's definitely not good) for them to risk the steady and unwavering assistance they give the world for the sake of an attempt (which is not guaranteed success) to kill their rivals. Evil dieties try to step into the realm of mortals because they don't care about the consequences. Good dieties, who do, refrain from such overt activity and instead bestow their power upon those who can put it to good use.
skywyze 09-07-05, 11:22 PM	I'm reading up on Lathander right now, and it's all good so far. Thanks. I'm still confused though - some of you state that gods don't fight evil directly, but have more of a truce thing going on. Others say that they do fight evil, but that the evil is so powerful that they don't have time for lesser evils such as balors and pit fiends. Which one is it? Do gods walk the earth? Or do they hold back because their actions might provoke the evil deities? What exactly do the gods spend their time doing?
Zathress 09-07-05, 11:32 PM	Look at it this way, A god does not directly interfear on the mortal plane. IF one does then that god can count on his enemy interfering and so forth. The gods don't get directly involved because if ONE does they all do. So deities reserve sending out there avatar for rare events. An example from draconomicon. This mated pair of Great Wyrm Gold dragons had angered Titmat (goddess of evil dragons) enougth for her to send her avatar to slay them. However because of this. Bahamaut the god of good dragons interfeared and saved the wyrmling child. So to answer your question. NONE of the gods get directly invovled on earth.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-08-05, 12:07 AM	Others say that they do fight evil, but that the evil is so powerful that they don't have time for lesser evils such as balors and pit fiends. What was just said about directly acting on the prime material holds. Now, with regards to a deity acting on the planes, there's one thing that they DO NOT get involved in: The Blood War and to a slightly lesser degree, the internal power struggles of the fiends in general. Originally the deities did get involved, but it ended for reasons still mysterious with the death of one deity and the nearly uniform weakening of all others who had gotten involed. Since that point deities (not including fiends who subsequently gained mortal worship and became true deities) have not taken any direct role in the Blood War, for fear of the consequences. Not interfering in the internal power struggles of the fiends is also for similar reasons, plus it doesn't make sense to the new kids on the block to bother their older, more established neighbors who otherwise don't care about them one snitch.
Azzy 09-08-05, 12:22 AM	So to answer your question. NONE of the gods get directly invovled on earth. Pretty much. It's a Divine Cold War.
skywyze 09-08-05, 08:54 AM	So in truth, there's absolutely no reason to worship or pray to any god, ever. Apart from granting spells, they're as useful as a one-legged camel. At least I got an alterior question answered: If we ever get the option to ascend into deityhood (we're playing in an epic campaign), then my character would refuse for the simple reason that while it'd make him powerful and able to defend himself, he'd be less able to defend those he loves. So in the end, it'd be pretty selfish. Besides, if a deity has to act through mortals, then deityhood is just an improved version of epic leadership really. Except for the whole immortality thing, which is just a fad anyway, since any of the older gods can destroy the fledgeling god - and likely they will if he proves helpful to someone. This whole conversation gives the spell Miracle a new spin though... If it truly allows deities to directly interfere in the lives of mortals for a single action (such as raising a dead person, making a magical item for the caster, improve their stats etc), then if *I* were a deity, I'd probably encourage my followers into using it. Oh, by the way, where is this truce detailed? I'd like to know how it came to be. You know, for historical purposes.
Solik 09-08-05, 10:11 AM	You're ignoring what everyone else is saying. By doing fighting in the other realms, the gods are protecting the mortals against all sorts of unspeakable horrors. They're safeguarding them by sheer virtue of the fact that the world hasn't exploded yet, or been invaded by cosmic horrors from insane alternate planes. That said, some of them, like Lathander, do actively seek to destroy all evil. As far as how they intervene on the material plane? Well, through their dogma and through visions / communication with their followers, they are able to have legions and legions of high priests and clerics and random devout worshippers do all of that for them. They're the guiding hand, just not the physical one. I don't see why that's so bad. Anyways, if you want a glimpse of what the gods generally busy themselves doing, take a look at Deities & Demigods and, in particular, the Epic Level Handbook. You can find crazy things like undead godling babies and huge monsters responsible for destroying entire pantheons that the gods have to deal with. Also, many Faerunian deities intervene directly. Mystra loves protecting her Chosen from certain death, and we all know what she did with Elminster. The entries for the deities generally describe what they're at work doing. They're certainly not being idle, sitting uselessly on their asses.
Blackwind 09-08-05, 05:44 PM	I think that this really is not something we can answer to your full satisfaction. In the end gods and the actions they take are up to your DM. You should talk to him/her about it and figure out what roles the god play in your campaign. I mean if granting power and hope to 1/3 of the population and trying to do the same for the rest is doing nothing in your eys then I don't really know what to tell you. Go play Demon: The Fallen. Every one is mad at god there.
ImmortalBlueMage 09-08-05, 05:58 PM	Good Gods do lots for mortals. They do things that mortals can't, such as BATTLE EVIL GODS. You want a crusader god who goes out and kicks butt? His name is Heironeus, if you want to find him, he'll probably be fighting with Hextor, or planning to fight Hextor, or planning to defend himself the next time Hextor attacks. Who do you think keeps Hextor from conquering and subjugating all the planes of existance? The good dieties. Who do you think stops Nerull from rising up and devouring the souls of all the living? Good dieties. What prevents Erythnul from raining carnage on everything from Celestia to the Forgotten Realms? Good aligned dieties. They also do things like keep the Far Realms far and sealed away from the other planes, prevent the Nine Hells and the Abyss from spilling over into the material realm, etc etc. Pelor and Heironeus can't come save your city, they've got bigger things to do. If there is some calamity large enough for a diety to have to intercede directly in mortal affairs, which is rare (or should be, some settings get carried away with it), they act through Avatars, aspects, or other agents that they can send to act in their stead, reincarnated heroes, powerful Celestial lords and the like.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-08-05, 06:24 PM	Oh, by the way, where is this truce detailed? I'd like to know how it came to be. You know, for historical purposes. Non involvement in the Blood War, and the history of that, is detailed in the 2e box set 'Hellbound: The Blood War'. I don't honestly recall where in what books and when there was ever an explicit statement of why deities don't just go toe to toe directly on the Prime Material with one another. The exact reason may vary from world to world or depending on which deities have a divine presence on that world, or what local conditions are set in place by any overdeity a particular world on the prime material may have (such as Ao on Faerun).
Verelor 09-08-05, 06:52 PM	I'd say 60% of holy diety's time and resources are spent just to make sure one evil diety doesn't slip through and cause mass, ultimate destruction upon a world (such as Vecna and Erythnul). If Lolth, even for a second, had the unguarded chance, she would with a "wave of her hand" obliterate almost every elf in the world other than her patron drow. Surely Corellon, Hanali, Eilistraee, and nearly every other holy diety surely is giving their absolute all to prevent that occuring...but of course not just with Lolth but every other evil diety in existance. And of course, there is the matter of an ultimate divine plan in which good will triumph and evil will be overthrown (cause that's what evil is really about, your own selfish pleasure right here and now without being overly concerned of what consequences will occur in the future), and all existance will become an Elysium.
Seeker95 09-08-05, 10:53 PM	So in truth, there's absolutely no reason to worship or pray to any god, ever. Apart from granting spells, they're as useful as a one-legged camel.Wow. Amazingly incredible.Oh, by the way, where is this truce detailed? I'd like to know how it came to be. You know, for historical purposes.Whose world? Do you mean the real world? The officvial D&D default world? My campaign world? Shemeska's campaign world? Your campaign world? What the hell are you actually looking for here, because aside from clamping down on the least significant portion of any given person's post, you seem to be having a greater interest in proving a point you refuse to make, or ignoring the point anyone else is making. I guess, in short, I am asking... what answer do you want us to spoon feed you?
skywyze 09-09-05, 08:42 AM	The problem I've had so far is that different people in this very thread directly contradict eachother, so I'm left not knowing what to believe. Some say gods fight other gods, others say they don't fight at all because it would be breaking a truce. Others are in the middle somewhere. And because I can't seem to get a straight answer without someone contradicting it, yes, I can imagine I would sound stubborn. After all, the only thing I can do about that is to repeat the question. Let me make my question perfectly clear then: Gods (In official published material): A) Fight eachother directly, so much so that they don't have time for the little guy. B) Don't fight eachother directly due to a truce of sorts, which also prevents them from directly aiding the little guy. C) Fight other deific beings and concepts directly (be it the Far Realms or other gods) and send their emissaries to fight wars between mortals in their place. D) None of the above. Also, I can see why Good would want a truce, so as to protect people from the mayhem that would be caused if all hell was released. But why would Evil agree to such a truce?
Roreck 09-09-05, 09:05 AM	A) Fight eachother directly, so much so that they don't have time for the little guy. B) Don't fight eachother directly due to a truce of sorts, which also prevents them from directly aiding the little guy. C) Fight other deific beings and concepts directly (be it the Far Realms or other gods) and send their emissaries to fight wars between mortals in their place. the truce of sorts that was described stated that gods don't fight/directly interfer on the material plane. Good Gods agreed to this to prevent the massive loss of live. Evil Gods probably agreed cause corrupting a planet is more fun than destroying it outright. I think someone else could explain evil's logic better than me. now for me I go with all of the above. Good gods are too busy fighting evil (in the form of other dieties/evil extraplaner beings/Great Worm non metalic Dragons), also good and evil agreed not to directly fight on the material plane. Thus good and evil gods send emissaries to fight wars between good and evil on the material plane. As for what you should take from this thread any of those 3 are a possible reason for why the gods don't do all the smiting/slaughtering. You can take any one two or three of those as YOU choose for YOUR world. IE it is all up to YOU. This means you have to read those up and decide which one you like/find the most reasonable and go with it. Their is no offical answer. Damn wizards of the coast for not having a clear cut answer for every little thing :rolleyes: .
Seeker95 09-09-05, 10:47 AM	The problem I've had so far is that different people in this very thread directly contradict eachother, so I'm left not knowing what to believe. Let me make my question perfectly clear then: Gods (In official published material): A) Fight eachother directly, so much so that they don't have time for the little guy. B) Don't fight eachother directly due to a truce of sorts, which also prevents them from directly aiding the little guy. C) Fight other deific beings and concepts directly (be it the Far Realms or other gods) and send their emissaries to fight wars between mortals in their place. D) None of the above.E) Depends on which published material. Are you playing in the Forgotten Realms? F) Depends on the deity. A combination of A, B, and C Are you playing in Greyhawk? G) Nobody knows for sure. Are you playing in Dragonlance? H) Depends on the Era, but in a few, the Gods have abandoned the mortal world entirely. So do whatever you want for your own campaign. Deities are not "normal" NPCs. The "official rules" leave deities intentionally open ended. But to whine that folks are offering contradictory answers is because the question you have asked is so open-ended that every answer is valid. Your question has as many "right answers" as What is your favorite food? and then you reply as if everyone is telling you the wrong food.
skywyze 09-09-05, 02:08 PM	Ah, so there IS no official answer. It may not be the answer I was hoping for, but it's an adequate answer none the less. And for the record, our campaign is set in Faerun. At least I know for a fact that no official answer has been given. If Shemeska doesn't know, then nobody does. I'll see if I can find a copy of the Blood Wars, but if it's 2nd ed, it might be hard to get a hold of. My apologies to anyone who felt that my questions were dumb or abrasive. I merely wished to know what the official stance was. And now I do.
Bane 09-09-05, 02:13 PM	Have you ever heard the saying: "When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers"? Gods are the elephants. We are the grass. If gods came down to the Material Plane to fight, then we would all die. Do you know what a Deity is without worshippers? I'll give you a hint: as useful as a one-legged camel. Besides that, wouldn't proof of divinity negate any concept of faith?
Azzy 09-09-05, 02:14 PM	The problem I've had so far is that different people in this very thread directly contradict eachother, so I'm left not knowing what to believe. However, we're not offering defacto answers--we're offering options on how to look at it. Use what feels right for your campaign. Some say gods fight other gods, others say they don't fight at all because it would be breaking a truce. Others are in the middle somewhere. And because I can't seem to get a straight answer without someone contradicting it, yes, I can imagine I would sound stubborn. After all, the only thing I can do about that is to repeat the question. Let me make my question perfectly clear then: Gods (In official published material): A) Fight eachother directly, so much so that they don't have time for the little guy. B) Don't fight eachother directly due to a truce of sorts, which also prevents them from directly aiding the little guy. C) Fight other deific beings and concepts directly (be it the Far Realms or other gods) and send their emissaries to fight wars between mortals in their place. D) None of the above. Depends on the published material. Some don't even broach the subject. Also, I can see why Good would want a truce, so as to protect people from the mayhem that would be caused if all hell was released. But why would Evil agree to such a truce? Fear, mostly, I suspect. There are many ways to look at it. It also assumes that there is actually a "truce." However, an actual truce isn't even necessary when looking at it as a divine cold war--each side would simply come to the understanding that a full-scale conflict would have severely bad consequences (at best) or would even be suicidal (most likely) or destroy everything (at worst). Only the most insane or the most stupid would invite such outcomes (and the other gods--be they evil or good or neutral--would try their best to keep them in check). In this type of senario, each side would still be vying for the upperhand, but would attempt it in a more "subtle" manner--mortal followers, indirect actions, etc.