Are there any high-level poisons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are there any high-level poisons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
skywyze
12-05-04, 06:29 PM The highest DC I've found for poisons is Dragon Bile with 26 if I remember correctly. Now the dwarf in our group is level 13 and can drink Dragon bile for tea without even rolling. So are poisons ultimately useless? Or are there any systems or poison types I'm unaware of?
Seeker95
12-05-04, 06:54 PM You'll probably have to go to Epic sources and third party products to get tougher poisons. My favorite is Toxicant by Mad Kaiser Games. Poisoncraft by Blue Devil Games is also good. Both of these are affordable PDFs.

This should whet your appetite.
POISONS' GREAT WEAKNESSES
In its present composition, the use of poison both by and against the PCs faces a few shortcomings. This book addresses all of them. First, the prevalent use of neutralize poison and similar magic negates poison use in a single stroke. Second, the existing rules do not adequately allow for high-DC poisons. High-level opponents, particularly creatures of size, often shrug off poison, with the poison-wielder left praying for a natural “1.” Furthermore, many creatures —-- plants, undead, elementals, constructs, and the like -- —are simply immune to poison. Third, at higher levels, the great power and flexibility of magic often relegates poison to a footnote in a character’s background description. No more. A dedicated poisoncrafter will find, within these pages, the tools to overcome each of these limitations.
Talanall
12-05-04, 07:28 PM Seeker95, in his excellent post, has already noted some of the best responses to the admitted weaknesses of poisons in 3.X edition DnD. I'll add a one other thing that you could try out, if you are looking for ways to add some practical value to poisons, because it has been my experience that they are often not only too weak to be of any real use, but also that they are too expensive to use.

It's clear that even at lower levels, poisons just don't work well against adventurers. By the time you, as a BBEG, can afford to spend 75 to 300 gp for a few points of ability score damage to a single adventurer, you're likely to be spending it on adventurers who have a better than even chance to save against that poison. You can bypass this problem in one of two ways. The first, simply enough, is to raise the DC. Seeker95's suggestions for resources along those lines are excellent. I don't even see an alternative to them, if you're taking the "I want stronger poisons" route, since the DMG's poison section is notably deficient in rules for formulating and pricing new poisons.

The other option, of course, is to use poison more frequently. Since it calls for a saving throw, poison offers a certain inevitability if you administer it to the target repetitively. Sooner or later, the victim will fail a saving throw. the problem with this approach is that poisons are so expensive that, at high levels, you may literally have to administer 20 doses of "dragon bile" to inflict a single instance of that poison's initial 3d6 Str damage to the victim. At a total expense of 30,000 gp, this is a very expensive proposition.

One way to counteract this expense is to reduce the price of poisons. Clearly, this is not necessarily a good idea, in some respects; if poison is cheaper, it must also necessarily be more common. If it is more common, more people will know about antidotes and treatments. But on the other hand, if a poison is easier to obtain, it can be administered more often, and therefore it does gain a degree of efficacy as a component in ambushes and hit-and-run battles. If it is cheap enough, poison can be used to force a group of characters to expend valuable time and resources trying to counteract its effects, or choose to risk suffering its effects as they attempt to close for battle with the person or persons administering it. In this context, poison is most useful because it gums up the victim or victims' offensive and defensive capabilities by distracting them from combat. Inhaled poisons are of especial effectiveness in this role, because they are administered as a ranged touch attack with range increment 10 feet, and they fill up a 10 foot cube. All creatures within the area of effect must save versus the poison (DMG 296-97).

To help make this sort of tactic more viable, you may want to consider a price reduction on a poison or group of poisons, ranging from 10% to 50%. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but it helps a little.
Melpomene
12-06-04, 12:00 AM Black Lotus Extract, for 4,500 a dose, is a DC 35 3d6 con init & sec poison... how's that?
zodiki
12-06-04, 12:42 AM Poisons are only weak against the PCs with good fortitude saves and that's the way the system is designed. Even the dwarf could roll a 1 on his save, so he'd be stupid to drink the poison wouldn't he.

One thing you could do is make saves against ingested poisons a straight Con check (plus Racial bonuses like the dwarf's) instead of a Fortitude save. A PC's level doesn't really have anything to do with his internal poison resistance (unless he's a druid or a monk of course).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skywyze 12-05-04, 06:29 PM	The highest DC I've found for poisons is Dragon Bile with 26 if I remember correctly. Now the dwarf in our group is level 13 and can drink Dragon bile for tea without even rolling. So are poisons ultimately useless? Or are there any systems or poison types I'm unaware of?
Seeker95 12-05-04, 06:54 PM	You'll probably have to go to Epic sources and third party products to get tougher poisons. My favorite is Toxicant by Mad Kaiser Games. Poisoncraft by Blue Devil Games is also good. Both of these are affordable PDFs. This should whet your appetite. POISONS' GREAT WEAKNESSES In its present composition, the use of poison both by and against the PCs faces a few shortcomings. This book addresses all of them. First, the prevalent use of neutralize poison and similar magic negates poison use in a single stroke. Second, the existing rules do not adequately allow for high-DC poisons. High-level opponents, particularly creatures of size, often shrug off poison, with the poison-wielder left praying for a natural “1.” Furthermore, many creatures —-- plants, undead, elementals, constructs, and the like -- —are simply immune to poison. Third, at higher levels, the great power and flexibility of magic often relegates poison to a footnote in a character’s background description. No more. A dedicated poisoncrafter will find, within these pages, the tools to overcome each of these limitations.
Talanall 12-05-04, 07:28 PM	Seeker95, in his excellent post, has already noted some of the best responses to the admitted weaknesses of poisons in 3.X edition DnD. I'll add a one other thing that you could try out, if you are looking for ways to add some practical value to poisons, because it has been my experience that they are often not only too weak to be of any real use, but also that they are too expensive to use. It's clear that even at lower levels, poisons just don't work well against adventurers. By the time you, as a BBEG, can afford to spend 75 to 300 gp for a few points of ability score damage to a single adventurer, you're likely to be spending it on adventurers who have a better than even chance to save against that poison. You can bypass this problem in one of two ways. The first, simply enough, is to raise the DC. Seeker95's suggestions for resources along those lines are excellent. I don't even see an alternative to them, if you're taking the "I want stronger poisons" route, since the DMG's poison section is notably deficient in rules for formulating and pricing new poisons. The other option, of course, is to use poison more frequently. Since it calls for a saving throw, poison offers a certain inevitability if you administer it to the target repetitively. Sooner or later, the victim will fail a saving throw. the problem with this approach is that poisons are so expensive that, at high levels, you may literally have to administer 20 doses of "dragon bile" to inflict a single instance of that poison's initial 3d6 Str damage to the victim. At a total expense of 30,000 gp, this is a very expensive proposition. One way to counteract this expense is to reduce the price of poisons. Clearly, this is not necessarily a good idea, in some respects; if poison is cheaper, it must also necessarily be more common. If it is more common, more people will know about antidotes and treatments. But on the other hand, if a poison is easier to obtain, it can be administered more often, and therefore it does gain a degree of efficacy as a component in ambushes and hit-and-run battles. If it is cheap enough, poison can be used to force a group of characters to expend valuable time and resources trying to counteract its effects, or choose to risk suffering its effects as they attempt to close for battle with the person or persons administering it. In this context, poison is most useful because it gums up the victim or victims' offensive and defensive capabilities by distracting them from combat. Inhaled poisons are of especial effectiveness in this role, because they are administered as a ranged touch attack with range increment 10 feet, and they fill up a 10 foot cube. All creatures within the area of effect must save versus the poison (DMG 296-97). To help make this sort of tactic more viable, you may want to consider a price reduction on a poison or group of poisons, ranging from 10% to 50%. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but it helps a little.
Melpomene 12-06-04, 12:00 AM	Black Lotus Extract, for 4,500 a dose, is a DC 35 3d6 con init & sec poison... how's that?
zodiki 12-06-04, 12:42 AM	Poisons are only weak against the PCs with good fortitude saves and that's the way the system is designed. Even the dwarf could roll a 1 on his save, so he'd be stupid to drink the poison wouldn't he. One thing you could do is make saves against ingested poisons a straight Con check (plus Racial bonuses like the dwarf's) instead of a Fortitude save. A PC's level doesn't really have anything to do with his internal poison resistance (unless he's a druid or a monk of course).