Are there supplements based around Ethical alignment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are there supplements based around Ethical alignment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dragonwriter
09-20-05, 01:22 PM I know all too well of the existence of the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness supplements, but are there similar supplements based around the ethical alignments of lawful and chaotic? I mainly ask because, being something of a philosopher, I find it hard to define exactly what it means to be "lawful" or "chaotic." Sure, the descriptions in the PHB give you a general idea... but that idea is very vague and I'm finding it very difficult to define what constitutes a "lawful" or "chaotic" act.

Example: If a law (loophole or otherwise) in a lawful neutral kingdom gives rightful protection to a being of quite obviously evil nature, does a Paladin go against his oath to respect legitimate authority by slaying the creature? Has he performed a chaotic act by completely disregarding and, in fact, acting in total defiance of the law he has dedicated himself to? Or has he remained true to his lawful nature by acting on the principles he's dedicated his life to, regardless of the law?

Is ethical alignment judged by a characters actions? Or is it judged by his motivations? Is a pirate who steals only from a specific list of very wealthy and corrupt merchants chaotic good because he steals only from evil characters? Or is he lawful good because he would never in his life steal from any good, respectable merchants, and in fact often comes to aid them in oversea battles against monsters and other pirates, giving such people aid and sanctuary while never taking a single cent from them?

You see why I find myself perplexed. If there exists not a supplement on the subject, perhaps I can just get some feedback that will help clarify my perspective.
Scipion Emilien
09-20-05, 01:59 PM Example: If a law (loophole or otherwise) in a lawful neutral kingdom gives rightful protection to a being of quite obviously evil nature, does a Paladin go against his oath to respect legitimate authority by slaying the creature? Has he performed a chaotic act by completely disregarding and, in fact, acting in total defiance of the law he has dedicated himself to? Or has he remained true to his lawful nature by acting on the principles he's dedicated his life to, regardless of the law?

They are at my knowledge, no ethical supplement, and in fact, i find the moral supplement confusing instead of helpful.

For me, law is before all, order, an orderly person who value rigor will always be more confortable with rule (even asking new one) than a chaotic one who prefer to go on a case by case basis.

So in the case of your paladin, i think they re is two option:

1- The paladin is from the kingdom and his order recognize the ruler, he will try to convince the king or his representent that his law as a big loophole that need to be fix. This will allow him to judge this evil one with the law

2- The paladin isn't from the kindgom and his order doesn't recognize the ruler. He will follow number 1 or since his order doesn't recognize this king, he will smite the big baddy and try to avoid the king militia after.

If he is in case 1 and the reform don't work, he will be in conflict, and this will be in my opinion a great role playing opportunitie for this player since they will be no easy way to make a choice. He will have to trust his wisdom and the one of his god.

For your case number 2, i would say he is chaotic, stealing from evil merchant is not neccesarly evil if you do it to help others, but on the others, you violate an order, even of this is an evil one. It depend too on the personnality of the character, but more often than not, sailors and pirate are chaotic because their nomad existence allow them to not be subjagated by the order of a land or another. The only law they follow is the one of the captain and the captain will usually judge on a case by case basis instead of relying on a big book of law with one thousand pages, which suit better a chaotic character.

Of course, it s a little different if this is the king war navy than pirate/corsair or commercials vessels.
KJW
09-20-05, 02:03 PM The D&D alignment system by being overly simplistic breeds unnecessary complexity when it is examined too deeply. Your confusion is only natural when you try to reason it out, which is a necessity for any DM using the system.

An alignment is the perspective of a character that is reduced to one of nine lens for purposes of simplification. You could even add some lens inbetween for more clarity such as LN(G) or CN(E) if you like, and you are still dancing with the same construct.

Good and evil are easier to grasp because we are used to looking at things as "he bad" and "she good." Even still you could find dozens, if not hundreds, or different definitions of good and evil on these very boards. Pick the one you like and use it, maybe is BoVD or BoED, or maybe its something else.

Law is the belief in order, a code, or principle. If you are lawful you believe that this ideal is greater than you and is worthy of emulation. Anyone on these boards who espouses RAW as scripture is lawful, because they believe that as an individual they are best served by surrendering their own opinions, i.e. house rules, to focus on upholding RAW. Also remember being lawful is embracing a higher standard, that does not mean you honor all standards. This would be impossible, so a paladin is not bound to the laws of a land if they conflict with his higher standard.

Chaos is the rejection of external principles. If you are chaotic you believe that your gut (not necessarily reason, and certainly not logic) is the best course of action. Anyone on these boards who creates house rules for no other reason that whim would be chaotic. Being chaotic does not mean you reject all laws, many may fit your gut instincts, but in the end it is you that decides.

Neutrality is the vast majority of the world it is the alignment of apathy or balance, depending upon your persepctive. I think most people are neutral, mainly because few people are truly either good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, real life is more complex.

Hope that helped, if not I can try again.
NinjaE
09-20-05, 02:07 PM No such books, far as I know.

However, on your questions, I'd say:
1: Depends; is the thing actively trying to debase innocent life? Being evil is not, in and of itself, cause for smiting.
If it IS being evil, I'd say that the "good" part of the paladins' alignment should trump the "law" part. He'd only be disrespecting legitimate authority if he went against the "spirit" of whatever law protects the creature.

2: I'd say neutral good, if he only does it because they're evil, evil, eeeeevil extortionists( possibly of doom), and helps people because he's just a nice guy.
If it's because he just plain dislikes people who hide behind the law, I'd say chaotic. If it's because he's following some external code( thou shalt not suffer the extortionist to live), I'd say lawful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragonwriter 09-20-05, 01:22 PM	I know all too well of the existence of the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness supplements, but are there similar supplements based around the ethical alignments of lawful and chaotic? I mainly ask because, being something of a philosopher, I find it hard to define exactly what it means to be "lawful" or "chaotic." Sure, the descriptions in the PHB give you a general idea... but that idea is very vague and I'm finding it very difficult to define what constitutes a "lawful" or "chaotic" act. Example: If a law (loophole or otherwise) in a lawful neutral kingdom gives rightful protection to a being of quite obviously evil nature, does a Paladin go against his oath to respect legitimate authority by slaying the creature? Has he performed a chaotic act by completely disregarding and, in fact, acting in total defiance of the law he has dedicated himself to? Or has he remained true to his lawful nature by acting on the principles he's dedicated his life to, regardless of the law? Is ethical alignment judged by a characters actions? Or is it judged by his motivations? Is a pirate who steals only from a specific list of very wealthy and corrupt merchants chaotic good because he steals only from evil characters? Or is he lawful good because he would never in his life steal from any good, respectable merchants, and in fact often comes to aid them in oversea battles against monsters and other pirates, giving such people aid and sanctuary while never taking a single cent from them? You see why I find myself perplexed. If there exists not a supplement on the subject, perhaps I can just get some feedback that will help clarify my perspective.
Scipion Emilien 09-20-05, 01:59 PM	Example: If a law (loophole or otherwise) in a lawful neutral kingdom gives rightful protection to a being of quite obviously evil nature, does a Paladin go against his oath to respect legitimate authority by slaying the creature? Has he performed a chaotic act by completely disregarding and, in fact, acting in total defiance of the law he has dedicated himself to? Or has he remained true to his lawful nature by acting on the principles he's dedicated his life to, regardless of the law? They are at my knowledge, no ethical supplement, and in fact, i find the moral supplement confusing instead of helpful. For me, law is before all, order, an orderly person who value rigor will always be more confortable with rule (even asking new one) than a chaotic one who prefer to go on a case by case basis. So in the case of your paladin, i think they re is two option: 1- The paladin is from the kingdom and his order recognize the ruler, he will try to convince the king or his representent that his law as a big loophole that need to be fix. This will allow him to judge this evil one with the law 2- The paladin isn't from the kindgom and his order doesn't recognize the ruler. He will follow number 1 or since his order doesn't recognize this king, he will smite the big baddy and try to avoid the king militia after. If he is in case 1 and the reform don't work, he will be in conflict, and this will be in my opinion a great role playing opportunitie for this player since they will be no easy way to make a choice. He will have to trust his wisdom and the one of his god. For your case number 2, i would say he is chaotic, stealing from evil merchant is not neccesarly evil if you do it to help others, but on the others, you violate an order, even of this is an evil one. It depend too on the personnality of the character, but more often than not, sailors and pirate are chaotic because their nomad existence allow them to not be subjagated by the order of a land or another. The only law they follow is the one of the captain and the captain will usually judge on a case by case basis instead of relying on a big book of law with one thousand pages, which suit better a chaotic character. Of course, it s a little different if this is the king war navy than pirate/corsair or commercials vessels.
KJW 09-20-05, 02:03 PM	The D&D alignment system by being overly simplistic breeds unnecessary complexity when it is examined too deeply. Your confusion is only natural when you try to reason it out, which is a necessity for any DM using the system. An alignment is the perspective of a character that is reduced to one of nine lens for purposes of simplification. You could even add some lens inbetween for more clarity such as LN(G) or CN(E) if you like, and you are still dancing with the same construct. Good and evil are easier to grasp because we are used to looking at things as "he bad" and "she good." Even still you could find dozens, if not hundreds, or different definitions of good and evil on these very boards. Pick the one you like and use it, maybe is BoVD or BoED, or maybe its something else. Law is the belief in order, a code, or principle. If you are lawful you believe that this ideal is greater than you and is worthy of emulation. Anyone on these boards who espouses RAW as scripture is lawful, because they believe that as an individual they are best served by surrendering their own opinions, i.e. house rules, to focus on upholding RAW. Also remember being lawful is embracing a higher standard, that does not mean you honor all standards. This would be impossible, so a paladin is not bound to the laws of a land if they conflict with his higher standard. Chaos is the rejection of external principles. If you are chaotic you believe that your gut (not necessarily reason, and certainly not logic) is the best course of action. Anyone on these boards who creates house rules for no other reason that whim would be chaotic. Being chaotic does not mean you reject all laws, many may fit your gut instincts, but in the end it is you that decides. Neutrality is the vast majority of the world it is the alignment of apathy or balance, depending upon your persepctive. I think most people are neutral, mainly because few people are truly either good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, real life is more complex. Hope that helped, if not I can try again.
NinjaE 09-20-05, 02:07 PM	No such books, far as I know. However, on your questions, I'd say: 1: Depends; is the thing actively trying to debase innocent life? Being evil is not, in and of itself, cause for smiting. If it IS being evil, I'd say that the "good" part of the paladins' alignment should trump the "law" part. He'd only be disrespecting legitimate authority if he went against the "spirit" of whatever law protects the creature. 2: I'd say neutral good, if he only does it because they're evil, evil, eeeeevil extortionists( possibly of doom), and helps people because he's just a nice guy. If it's because he just plain dislikes people who hide behind the law, I'd say chaotic. If it's because he's following some external code( thou shalt not suffer the extortionist to live), I'd say lawful.